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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Mike Capel/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Ian Rose 08:11, 27 January 2013 [1].

Mike Capel edit

Mike Capel (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Albacore (talk) 15:11, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this because I feel the next progression for this article is taking it to FAC. I have a box of ~200 baseball cards and I pulled this guy randomly out. When I looked at his Wikipedia article and I started to research him, I thought this could become a featured article. I think Capel is a relatively easy FA because I can include all of the information I find on the guy, and I don't have to weigh which information is more important than which. This has gone through a good article review as well as a peer review. Thank you. Albacore (talk) 15:11, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose for the moment: Sorry about this, but I'm going to have to oppose for the moment on prose and jargon. This looks like a well-researched and well-written piece of work, but I think is just short of FA standard for now. Having read the lead and first section, I've found several small issues which really should have been sorted before reaching FAC. Some of the article reads quite "jargony" and would not be too accessible to non-baseballers. While I appreciate that not everything can be spelt out in an article like this, and that some links are provided, it is better to not have the reader doing all the work in a FA. A few more words of explanation here and there would be invaluable. This is what I have noticed so far, but I would be happy to revisit and strike the oppose if the article could be checked for any similar issues and copy-edited a little. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:36, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • "who played in parts of three seasons for the Chicago Cubs (1988), Milwaukee Brewers (1990) and Houston Astros (1991).": "parts of three seasons" does not quite sound right here. Why not just cut "in parts of three seasons" from the sentence altogether.
    • Cut.
  • "Capel pitched 62.1 innings and posted a career win–loss record of 3–4": Is there a link for innings, and possibly a way of explaining 62.1 to the uninitiated (among whom I would number myself on that one!). Also, not sure about "posted" here as it sounds a little jargony.
    • Reworded entire sentence. There is a link for innings pitched, which I've added. I can add a footnote or some parenthesis explaining what the 62.1 means, if that would be appropriate, although I've never seen a sports biography on Wikipedia where such terms are explained in the article, although I would sure like to see one, especially for cricket or soccer, and I'm sure that goes for others who have no knowledge of the player's sport. I assume that some prior knowledge of the sport is required for reading sports biographies. Albacore (talk) 03:13, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • Looking over other sports FAs I gained a sense of importance in explaining these terms. Would it be appropriate to explain in notes, or would I have to explain in the text? Albacore (talk) 03:22, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • The best example I have seen recently of avoiding this issue is Otto Graham; although it is a different sport, I think this one gets the balance right between explaining things but not interrupting the flow of the story. My own preference is to do as much as possible in the text, but sometimes notes do a better job if it would make the main text clunky. Sarastro1 (talk) 12:05, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "During his playing time, he stood at 6 feet 1 inch (185 cm) and weighed 175 pounds (79 kg).": He stood? Did his height change when he sat down? Did he grow or shrink after his playing time was over? "Playing time" rather than career, sounds a bit jargony.
    • Changed playing time to career. I don't know if he grew/shrunk or if he lost weight/gained weight after his professional career, that's why I have "during his professional career" to clarify when he was at these characteristics.
  • "The Philadelphia Phillies chose Capel in the 24th round of the 1980 MLB Draft, but instead of signing…": Signing what? A little ambiguous as written, and I think that "but instead of joining the team…" may be better.
    • Changed to " but instead of signing a professional contract".
  • "Capel earned a spot on the 1982 USA College All-Star Team": "earned a spot" does not sound completely encyclopaedic.
    • Rewrote.
  • "After he was drafted by the Cubs, Capel spent six seasons playing minor league baseball before he made his MLB debut in 1988": Not too keen on this sentence. What about "Drafted by the Cubs, Capel spent six seasons playing minor league baseball before he made his MLB debut in 1988."
    • Changed to your admirably-worded sentence.
  • "Following a 1989 season spent in the minors…": Maybe "After spending 1989 in the minors…"
    • Again.
  • "Capel finished his career playing in the Astros farm system, spending his last season with the Tucson Toros in 1993.": Not quite sure about this one either, as it seems to be saying the same thing twice but slightly differently: where did he end his career, the farm system or the Tuscon Toros. Assuming these are basically the same thing, what about "Capel spent the final part of his career in the Astros farm system, and played his last season [with the Tuscon Turos - is this important enough for the lead?] in 1993."
    • Rewrote, did not include the Toros.
  • "Outside of baseball, Capel is a close friend of Roger Clemens.": Sufficiently important for a sentence in the lead?
    • Something to summarize the personal life section. This sentence in particular summarizes/contributes to two sentences in the personal life section, more than any other thought present in the personal life section would be able to do.
      • Still not convinced of the importance for the lead. It is only a small part of the personal life section, and his current career is already included from this section. Sarastro1 (talk) 12:05, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • Removed.
  • It is quite common practice to link terms in the lead, and then link them on their first mention in the main body. This does help the reader, but has not been done here. Not a big issue, and feel free to ignore; this is more of an observation than a suggestion.
    • Noted, I'll look for this in spots throughout the article.
  • "Capel was born on October 13, 1961, in Marshall, Texas. He attended Spring High School in Harris County.": Perhaps link these sentences with "and"?
    • Linked.
  • "During his senior year in 1979, the Spring Lions won the AAAA state championship, while Capel personally gained All-State honors": Nit-picky, but I'm not convinced that "while" is the best conjunction to use here as it suggests "at the same time" or "contrast". I'm not quite convinced that either of these works comfortably. Perhaps just another "and" would be better.
    • Changed.
  • "He set several records at Spring.": Such as?
    • The USA Today article only says "And Clemens' best friend, Mike Capel, set several pitching records at Spring before joining Clemens to win the College World Series for Texas in 1983."
  • "while Clemens said he was "probably the best pitcher in the state at that time".[5][4]": Who is Clemens? Mentioned in the lead, but perhaps he should be introduced properly here. Also, if the two refs mean that the two quotes have different sources, the ref should follow the quote which it supplies.
    • Moved refs, used first name.
  • "The Phillies drafted Capel with the 605th overall pick in the 1980 MLB Draft": Phillies introduced in the lead, but really should be spelt out in full here on their first mention in the main body.
    • Spelled out.

Sarastro1 (talk) 20:36, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

More comments: Down to end of collegiate career.

  • Second paragraph of the lead now looking quite good, but I think "Capel" is overused. Maybe a little rewording and a few more "he"s are needed to fix this.
    • Changed a few "Capel"s to a few "He"s
  • "Capel and the Texas Longhorns won the College World Series": I always wonder in sports articles (and am guilty of it myself) if it is accurate to say that Capel won this himself; rather the team won it. Perhaps "Capel won the College World Series with the Texas Longhorns"?
    • OK.
  • "the Spring Lions won the AAAA state championship": Can we explain what AAAA means here?
  • Watch out for using "while" as a connective. It's not always the best word to use.
    • Changed. Noted for the rest of the article.
  • I wonder could we have a better link for draft. By all means link to that specific draft, but maybe add a more generic link somewhere. While I'm now pretty good at understanding drafting in US sport, it used to confuse me incredibly as there is no equivalent in the UK. Anything to smooth the path of the reader.
  • "Capel began his baseball career at the University of Texas": Another tricky little sporting one; I doubt he first played organised baseball at University. I suspect we don't know anything about his career before this (although if we do, by all means include it), but maybe reword so that it does not look like he first played at this point.
    • Changed to "Capel attended the University of Texas in 1981, but did not play baseball, as stretched..."
  • "To compensate for a loss in the velocity of his fastball, Capel pitched sidearmed.": If he missed the season, where was he pitching sidearmed? And how does this compensate for the loss of velocity? I think this may need rewording a little.
    • Rewrote. I'm not sure how this compensates, and to me it doesn't sound like Capel knows how it compensates. The sourced article says: "Said Capel: "I stretched ligaments in my elbow my freshman year and missed a year. I tried to throw side-arm to compensate for it, but after I signed a pro contract, I went back to the way I was.""
  • "and pitched to a 9–0 record with a 3.68 ERA": How can someone pitch to a record?
  • "as the Longhorns went 59–6": "went" is jargony here.
    • Reworded.
  • "he pitched a 14–4 complete game victory": Link or explanation for "complete game victory"?
    • Linked, removed link in same section later on.
  • "as the match was called after seven innings per the championship's ten run rule": And lost me here, I'm afraid.
    • I've given a more specific link and clarified who this was held by. Clicking the link gives a sufficient explanation of the ten-run rule.
  • "The following year, Capel went 12–1": "went" again. Also, for the start of a paragraph, maybe better to give the year rather than state "the following year".
  • "Capel threw a complete game four-hitter against the Michigan Wolverines": We have linked "complete game" here but not earlier. Also, complete game four-hitter loses me again.
    • Reworded.
  • "Capel finished the season with 13 wins, 1 loss": Why spell it out here, rather than 13-1 as earlier? (Personally I prefer the full version in a FA, but that is just my view)
  • "for the fifth-best in school history": For all schools, or just his? Not quite clear. Sarastro1 (talk) 12:05, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Clarified.

Skipping ahead to Personal life:

  • "In February 1986, Capel pitched in the University of Texas Alumni v. Varsity game, which ended in a 14–14 tie.": Is this important?
  • "Capel used dipping tobacco and in March 1988 had a non-cancerous lesion removed from his lip; according to Capel, he started using the product 12 years earlier and was trying to quit": Chronology is confusing here. Looks like he used dipping tobacco in 1988. And 12 years before 1988 or 12 years before another date? (Maybe better to say started in 1976 to avoid the confusion) Sarastro1 (talk) 12:05, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Reworded.
  • Comment I think this article is a solid GA, but at this point not an FA. Some observations:
    • References #43 and 56 are missing the author.
      • Added.
    • I'm not a fan of "When Clemens faced a perjury trial regarding his alleged steroid use"...how about "During Clemens perjury trial (link the trial) regarding alleged steroid use"
      • Re-wrote, redlinked trial, as it would pass WP:N if created, and there's surely enough for a stand-alone article.
    • "When Al Nipper was supposed to become the Cubs' fifth starter on April 23, Capel was to take his spot in the bullpen,[28] although this never happened." I am not a fan of this sentence either, it seems a tad ambiguous. Why didn't this ever happen? If it didn't happen, why is it relevant in this article? I don't know, something needs to be done there.
    • Is there a reason the comment from the Chicago Sun-Times reporter needs to be in quotes? Couldn't you just summarize the comment? It doesn't seem especially noteworthy.
      • I think it's notable, as it's a mention Capel received outside of statistics, which are hard to come by. I think it would be hard to summarize as well. Albacore (talk) 17:55, 31 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • In the collegiate career section, instead of saying he finished the year at a "13-1 clip", could you say "13 wins, 1 loss, and an ERA of...". Not everyone is going to know what "a 13-1 clip" refers to.
      • Fixed.
    • "Capel personally gained..." change to "Capel earned", it sounds better, I think.
      • Changed.
    • These are mostly suggestions, I'm not entirely sold on my way necessarily, I just am not a big fan of how they currently are phrased in the article. That said, great work thus far. Go Phightins! 16:14, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • All right, I'm satisfied enough to support. Good work. Go Phightins! 03:08, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments – I peer reviewed this, and it looks to have improved further since then. Here are a few more suggestions:

  • One of the things I pointed out at PR was this newspaper article that appeared to be about Capel, but was not in the article. The nominator said that they would access it, but I don't see it included, nor is there a message at the peer review that the source wasn't useful. For comprehensiveness purposes, I'd like to know that this source has at least been checked for any useful material. To be fair, my searches haven't turned up anything else helpful that isn't already included in the sourcing, which with the possible exception of this one source seems to have been fully tapped.
  • First sentence: "is a former Major League Baseball right-handed relief pitcher who for the Chicago Cubs, Milwaukee Brewers and Houston Astros." "who" should be removed, given the other trimming that Sarastro recommended.
    • Removed.
  • Early life: Since the Roger Clemens mention was removed from the lead, a wikilink is now needed here.
    • Added.
  • Collegiate career: Very minor point, but I see a serial comma used in the list of future MLB pitchers here, but not the list of teams Capel pitched for in the lead. It doesn't really matter which way you have it, --TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:34, 15 January 2013 (UTC)but whether the serial comma is used or not should be made consistent. If it were me, I'd add the comma in the lead, given that a similar sentence in the Astros section also uses the serial comma.[reply]
    • Added comma to lead.
  • Chicago Cubs: You may want to find an appropriate wikilink for "optioned", as someone will surely find that to be jargony without some explanation.
  • Milwaukee Brewers: Found a redundancy of the team name in "The Brewers optioned Capel to the Denver Zephyrs, their Triple-A affiliate, on April 5, before the start of the Brewers' season." Perhaps the second use of Brewers could be swapped out to fix this issue. Giants2008 (Talk) 03:31, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by TonyTheTiger (talk · contribs)
Early life
  • "He set several records at Spring" ???
  • Are there some concrete accopmlishiments or stats somewhere detailing his high school career?
  • Do the Houston Chronicle online archives cover his high school career?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:34, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • The Houston Chronicle removed their archives in 2005 (see Houston_chronicle#Availability_of_Houston_Post_articles), but I can see exerts from the articles when I search on Google. The Internet Archive has no copies of the pages, as far as I can see. [2] talks about him at Spring, but I can't see the full article. Is there a way I could do this? Albacore (talk) 18:55, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • A lot of times libraries allow instate resident extensive archive access online. I am not sure what is possible in this case. Try contacting the Houston Public Library.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:25, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Collegiate career
  • How did he suddenly have streched ligaments?
  • Can you include something about double elimination format to clarify why the second loss eliminated the team.
  • Should "Adding another win to his total..." be one sentence earlier?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:34, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Major league career (s/b Professional career)
  • Change section title.
    • Changed.
Chicago Cubs
  • add league (so it is Class A Quad Cities Cubs of the X League) so all teams in this paragraph are associated with a League.
  • What level was Lodi at?
  • What date did they acquire Mike Bielecki?
  • "He returned to the MLB club on August 8 to replace Schiraldi" Did he start any games that season?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:34, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Houston Astros
Personal section
  • For a FA, this is very sparse.
    • Has he ever been married?
      • Yes. Added.
    • Any kids?
      • I've found something that says his wife's late mother had grandchildren, but I can't find anything specifically mentioning that they were his. Albacore (talk) 16:27, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Has he tried to coach at any level?

Delegate comment -- After a month here without achieving consensus to promote, and no activity for a week, this nom seems to have stalled. I'll therefore be archiving and asking the nominator to continue improvements away from the FAC process, ideally working with Sarastro and Tony to determine if their comments have been addressed before considering re-nomination after a minimum two weeks has passed. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:08, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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