Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Malaysia/archive3

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 18:38, 21 December 2011 [1].

Malaysia edit

Nominator(s): Chipmunkdavis (talk) 14:23, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because having worked on it for a while, and participated in a couple of FARs of other country articles, I believe this article meets the FA criteria. It's been through a couple of PRs, the comments of which were very helpful and have been taken on board. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 14:23, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just a couple of initial comments about the Governance section:

I really don't think this Huffington Post opinion piece is a reliable source for "Although the judiciary is theoretically independent, supporters of the government hold many judicial positions." I'm sure there are reliable sources that can support similar statements, but not that source.
"Some state governments controlled by the Pan-Malaysian Islamic Party, including that of Terengganu, have passed Islamic laws, but these have not gone into effect due to opposition from the federal government." This seems a long way out of date and inaccurate. Terengganu of course hasn't been ruled by PAS since 2004. The state of Kedah, which is currently ruled by PAS (since 2008), has not really passed Islamic laws at all. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:35, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I can't find any more reliable sources with the same sort of message, but I have found a report by the International Commission of Jurists about how judges were promoted in after certain decisions on the Anwar sodomy trials, and discusses the lack of transparency in judge appointment. Alternatively, or in addition to this, there's a couple of Australian academic sources [2][3] which discuss the judiciary and how it has become subordinate to the executive, which could be used to show a similar point. Would these be better? Preferences?

If the report is a primary source, you should be sure you're using it correctly, or citing a secondary review of the primary source. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:29, 29 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I understand it, the report would be a secondary source, not only not being from the government or judiciary, but from an international NGO. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 16:18, 29 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've reworded it to be shorter and more obviously refer to the past. It's probably actually not that notable now, as UMNO has become more Islamic itself in many eyes, and so I'd be fine removing it. Not much would be taken from the article. Slightly tangentially, the ISA is being repealed, which may mean the governance section will have to be updated in other places soon anyway. Election next year, sigh. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 00:38, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think the second item is worth keeping. You could switch out Terengganu for Kelantan, which it'd still be relevant to. Lots of laws passed, everything in place—signs for separate lines in the supermarket, etc—but they're not enforced. Nightw 13:42, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, I've replaced the Huffington post with the International Commission of Jurists report (which frankly does say the same message, only better). Hopefully that addresses Mkativerata's concerns. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 17:02, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support -- It is a very good article illustration about the country. Mohamed Aden Ighe (talk) 02:07, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- [4] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 07:00, 29 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:50, 29 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Don't use bare URLs. All web sources need title, publisher and access date at minimum
Newspapers and magazines should be italicized
Be consistent in whether ISBNs are hyphenated or not
What makes this a high-quality reliable source for what you're sourcing to it?
Be consistent in whether authors are listed first or last name first
Be consistent in how multi-author works are notated
FN 23: volume?
FN 27; what kind of source is this?
Watch for minor inconsistencies like doubled periods
Be consistent in whether or not you provide publisher locations

Stopping. Citations and referencing need a lot of cleanup here. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:50, 29 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Is the Sumatra source really that bad for a source that simply notes a kingdom's existence? I wouldn't think that was particularly contentious at all. I can try to change it anyway.
In regard to Author listings, while writing I did my best to place most in the |last |first format in the template, but ran into the issue of Chinese names. Often these have the last name first even in English, but without commas or anything. I suppose just changing them all to |author would be the best solution? Chipmunkdavis (talk) 19:27, 29 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think as a rule of thumb, western names should be SURNAME, FIRSTNAME; Chinese and Muslim names should be as they read. The article does it all quite inconsistently (not that I would oppose over it): "John Pike" [85] vs "Kent, Jonathan" [86]; "Razak, Ahmad" [202] vs "Shazwan Mustafa Kamal" [206]. --Mkativerata (talk) 01:56, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That sound good, I'll implement that unless Nikkimaria says otherwise. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 09:57, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Done, but I left the Indian names as author as well. Someone more familiar with any author styles feel free to correct me. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:30, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Writing country articles is seriously hard work I think, so well done for tackling this one. I think it still needs a bit of work, though I'm afraid. A few examples from the early sections:

"The country is multi-ethnic and multi-cultural, factors that influence its culture ...". Isn't it self-evident that Malaysia's multiculturalism would influence its culture?
"Malaysia contains the southernmost point of continental Eurasia, Tanjung Piai, and is located near the equator and has a tropical climate." Bit of a run-on there
"The name "Malaysia" was adopted in 1963 when the existing states of the Federation of Malaya, plus Singapore, North Borneo and Sarawak formed a new federation, with "si" being added to Malaya in honour of the three joining states. Prior to that, the name itself had been used to refer to the whole Malay Archipelago. Politicians in the Philippines once contemplated naming their state "Malaysia", but in 1963 Malaysia adopted the name first." Some obvious repetition there.
"At the time of the 1963 federation, other names were considered". I think we've got the point by now that the federation was formed in 1963.
"Evidence of human habitation in Malaysia dates back 40,000 years, with the first inhabitants thought to be Negritos". "With" hardly ever works as a linking word, and certainly doesn't here.
"This resulted in strong Indian and Chinese influence on the local cultures". It's a good idea not to start a sentence with "this", as it engenders some ambiguity as to what it's referring to. In this case, is it the arrival of the Chinese and Indian traders, their establishment of ports and towns, or both?
"Between the 7th and the 13th century ...". Should be "7th and 13th centuries".
"Parameswara became a Muslim, and due to this the conversion of Malays to Islam accelerated in the 15th century." We haven't been told it had begun, so to read that it had accelerated comes as a bit of a "Huh?"

Malleus Fatuorum 14:56, 29 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Those issues fixed, and some other editing done as well. Unfortunately, while I am often able to point out others prose problems, I am regularly blind to my own mistakes. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 17:02, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support, with a few very minor comments:
- The first paragraph of the Culture section needs some rewording; "there" is used twice in the same sentence; some words are repeated too often throughout the entire section, most notably "culture" or "cultural". The section is a bit of a stuttering read, but the article is very good and interesting as a whole. - ☣Tourbillon ^A ? 14:58, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments (this may take several stages) Nice to see a big topic here anyway. The article is fully protected, or I would do some of these myself.
"It consists of thirteen states and three federal territories and has a total landmass of 329,847 square kilometres (127,350 sq mi) separated by the South China Sea into two regions, Peninsular Malaysia and Malaysian Borneo." - adding the split of land area, and at the end of the para population, between the two regions would be useful. That the areas are roughly equal, but the population heavily concentrated in the peninsula (80%+ I think), is a crucial fact about the country.
"Evidence of human habitation in Malaysia dates back 40,000 years" - I think you mean "modern human", as Malaysia is quite a hotspot for earlier human species, is it not, which should really be added. Better ref needed frankly.
"The first inhabitants are thought to be Negritos." - I can only read the first page of the JSTOR ref, but this seems to say the Negrito groups are only one of three types inhabiting the peninsula, and note that the article only covers the peninsula.
My understanding is that until about the 19th century, the crucial point about the various advanced cultures (Malay etc) in the peninsula, & also Borneo, was that they were very largely settled around the coast, & most of the interior remained largely unaffected by them. This should be said.
"In 1786 the British Empire set foot in Malaya, when the Sultan of Kedah leased Penang to the British East India Company." - oddly phrased "set foot"; "established a foothold/presence" maybe.
"The British obtained Singapore in 1819," - add "then barely more than a fishing village" or something.
British-sponsored Chinese and Indian immigration really needs mentioning here.
"During this time, rebels under the leadership of the Malayan Communist Party launched guerrilla operations designed to force the British out of Malaya." - "largely Chinese" or similar needs adding.
They've just changed the king this week haven't they? Yes, Abdul Halim of Kedah again, since December 13th.
"The prime minister must be a member of the house of representatives who, in the opinion of the Yang di-Pertuan Agong, commands a majority in parliament." - Who needs adding. "The incumbent, Najib Razak, appointed in 2009, and is the sixth prime minister." - remove "and", or add "was", or something.
"Syariah Courts" - add explanatory link to Shariah law, the spelling most Anglophones are used to?
"...were implemented to advance the standing of the bumiputra, who are considered the original inhabitants of Malaysia, over non-bumiputra such as Malaysian Chinese and Malaysian Indians.[58] These policies provide preferential treatment to Malays over non-Malays in employment, education, scholarships, business, and access to cheaper housing and assisted savings...." - an important point, & the relevant info is here, but rather jumbled up. Best to define bumiputra as soon as the word is mentioned.
"Debate exists over whether the country should be secular or Islamic.[60] The Pan-Malaysian Islamic Party has passed Islamic legislation in state parliaments, but these have been blocked by the federal government" - phrasing. "There is ongoing debate over whether the laws of Malaysia should reflect secular or Islamic principles." maybe? Is "Islamic legislation" clear enough? Probably not.
"Malaysia's foreign policy is officially based on the principle of neutrality and maintaining peaceful relations with all countries, regardless of their political system.[62] The government attaches a high priority to the security and stability of Southeast Asia,[63] and seeks to further develop relations with other countries in the region." - a very bland official start to a rather bland section. They certainly weren't neutral in the Cold War; that & the increasing move though non-alignment to anti-Western rhetoric since 1969 deserves mention. Isn't their main security concern (wholly unofficially) an invasion from Indonesia?
"The military uses 1.9 per cent of the country's GDP, and hires 1.23 per cent of Malaysia's manpower.[77]" - "employs" better
"It is composed of a variety of types, although they are mainly dipterocarp forests." - linked to the genus Dipterocarpaceae. Slightly misleading - as the ref explains, dipterocarp forests are "dominated" by Dipterocarpaceae, but are not just forests of Dipterocarpaceae. Maybe "It is composed of a variety of types, with Dipterocarpaceae the dominant trees at most altitudes" or something.
The economy section is a bit thin - nothing on national debt for example. Nor on the stock exchange, and regulations re bumiputra ownership of quoted companies. Nor government ownership of companies and other assets.
"The population in concentrated on Peninsular Malaysia[145] where 20 million of approximately 28 million Malaysians live" - which agrees with the source, which is the US State Dept. But - see Demographics of Malaysia - the 2010 census had c. 22.6/28M in the peninsula. One wonders if Uncle Sam may know something, or has just made a 15% mistake! But we should use the local figure.
"Putrajaya is the seat of government..." It should be explained that this is a planned city begun in 1999, with a population of 30,000 according to our article.
"Approximately 61.3% of the population are practicing Islam. 19.8% Buddhism; 9..." punctuation.
"The jurisdiction of Shariah courts is limited only to Muslims in matters..." "only" is redundant.
"The Iban is the main tribal language in Sarawak" - use "Iban language".
"The more common dialects in the country are Cantonese, Mandarin, Hokkien, Hakka, Hainanese, and Fuzhou." based on the CIA's list, but I would be amazed if Mandarin is actually the second most common Chinese dialect, as opposed to people speaking it (very badly mostly) for business purposes as a second dialect. A better reference needed really.
"Despite most of the festivals being identified with a particular ethnic or religious group, celebrations are participated by all Malaysians in a custom known as "open house".[186]" - grammar, and needs explaining what an "open house" is.
"Malaysia, along with Indonesia and China, has consistently held the Thomas Cup since 1948." - no, "been a consistent winner of" maybe - it can't be consistently held by 3 nations.
"The Malaysian Lawn Bowl's Federation was registered in 1997." - no apostrophe (normally anyway), & is this really all there is to say? Is the popular sport bowling (ten pin essentially, US style) or bowls (lawn, English style)?
"Besides Malay newspapers, there are large circulation of English, Chinese, and Tamil dailies in the country" - grammar, & I expect it depends on what you mean by "large".

I think these are all fixable, & the article seems very balanced, not shying away from controversial issues. What about extreme Islamism? Johnbod (talk) 15:08, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

General agreement with these, I also can't edit due to the protection. I can't access JSTOR anymore (I could back when I did most of the editing on this article), but I think the article mentioned Negritos coming first. In regards to it covering the peninsular, although obviously noone really knows, from what I have read it seems generally agreed that humans settled the peninsular before what is now Borneo.

Yes, the advanced cultures were maritime. Predictably so, as there is such an extensive coastline compared to land area. Not sure how to say this though, I could add the Srivijaya empire etc. were maritime empires I suppose.

By Islamic legislation I meant laws based on Islamic laws. Islamic principles is a good fix.

That foreign policy statement is based on the current status quo, which is what I built the section around. West-bashing was prominent under Mahathir, but I don't hear about it as much now, possibly due to the fact that even if it is still prominent it can't compare to Mahathirs comments. Indonesia has become less important recently, especially with the strengthening of ASEAN. Most issues have been about oil and the spratlys.

I doubt there is good statistics on the type of Chinese spoken. I can look through the recent census data and see what there is.

Appreciate the comments, will fix when I can. Which is when it's unprotected, although if an admin wants to implement grammar changes above they can feel free to! Chipmunkdavis (talk) 00:31, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. Actually I think the Mandarin mention is probably ok, as although (I'd imagine) the mother tongue of very few Malaysian Chinese, it is the only Chinese language taught (where it is) in schools. Johnbod (talk) 02:13, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Made most of the changes above. I couldn't find the 2010 census, or a 22.6 million figure on the main Demographics page. I also have difficulty with economy, not being very familiar with it, I wouldn't know what is important or what isn't, I mainly edited by feel and previous content there, no doubt causing the thinness you sense. How would I integrate that information into the section? Chipmunkdavis (talk) 22:38, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I would see if you can get an admin to unprotect for a short while so you can make changes - the king needing updating may be a useful excuse! Johnbod (talk) 17:05, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'll do just that. I don't know why such a prominent article was locked for so long in the first place. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:00, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Any idea what happened to the svg Coat of Arms Mkativerata? Chipmunkdavis (talk)

The deletion log says it got deleted under F8, "Media file available on Commons". But I can't find it on commons... --Mkativerata (talk) 01:45, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.