Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Malagasy cuisine/archive2

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 03:55, 19 July 2011 [1].

Malagasy cuisine edit

Nominator(s): Lemurbaby (talk) 11:18, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The cuisine of Madagascar is distinctive and diverse, and reflects the island's unique history as a crossroads of the Indian ocean. This is the second FAC run for this article, which if promoted would become the first Featured Article on a cultural/historical topic related to Madagascar. This is a very underrepresented area on Wikipedia. All the changes proposed during the first FAC run have been made and I believe the article is ready to be promoted. Lemurbaby (talk) 11:18, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:27, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Missing bibliographic info for Bradt 2010

Fixed. Lemurbaby (talk) 15:30, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Is Nativel's co-author Faranirina Rajaonah or Rajaonah Faranirina? Check for consistency.

Fixed. Lemurbaby (talk) 15:30, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Be consistent in how you notate author/editor of larger works (ie. "In...")

I can't seem to make the Martin ref match the others (using "In...") because the volume doesn't have an editor name provided. The only way to do this would be to create a manual reference. Is that how you'd like me to handle it, or do you know another way? Lemurbaby (talk) 15:30, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the Martin ref is fine as-is (except for the malformatted page range). What I was looking at was the author/editor name format on refs that already use "In..." - for example, "In Ade Ajayi" vs "In Reade, Julian". Nikkimaria (talk) 16:29, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have fixed the page range issue for Martin. The editor name format is in fact consistent - the full name of the editor in question is Jacob Festus Ade Ajayi, so it is in fact showing his last name, (comma) first name. Lemurbaby (talk) 23:29, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Make sure all foreign-language sources (like FN 52) are notated as such.

Fixed. Lemurbaby (talk) 15:30, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Check for minor inconsistencies like doubled periods.

Fixed. Lemurbaby (talk) 15:30, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nikkimaria (talk) 12:27, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support (GermanJoe) - no dabs, no broken links. Interesting, comprehensive article with solid prose and referencing. One small question though:

Lead states "Throughout almost the entire island, the contemporary cuisine of Madagascar consists of a base of rice" and "In parts of the arid south, pastoral families may replace rice with maize, cassava and curds made from fermented zebu milk.". However section 'contemporary cuisine' states "Throughout the country, rice is considered the preeminent food and constitutes the main staple of the diet in all but the most arid regions of the south and west." (emphasis mine) ==> One of the statements seems inaccurate, what's the situation in the west for the lead? GermanJoe (talk) 21:06, 18 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Good catch - the region in question is broadly the southwestern region, but because these are pastoral people they migrate in both directions (south and west). Now both points in the article read "south and west". Lemurbaby (talk) 04:15, 19 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Updated Vote, after another read-through. Good work with the article. 2 small niggles not affecting vote:
1650-1800 "The prickly pear cactus (raketa), also known in southern Madagascar as sakafon-drano ("water food"), was brought from the New World ..." ==> "the New World" could mean a whole continent or more and is kind of vague here (and the similarly vague linked article doesn't help). Do your sources name the area of origin more specifically?

Unfortunately not, probably because it was brought over during that period of the trans-Atlantic slave trade when ships might stop at numerous ports in the Americas collecting produce etc before returning to Africa. It seems the circumstances of the introduction of this particular plant to Madagascar are unknown. Lemurbaby (talk) 10:55, 19 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

laoka "...; other variations on the achard are found throughout Southeast Asia where they are known by variant names such as acar or achar." ==> the whole phrase is slightly off-focus and could be removed completely without loosing content for Madagasy cuisine itself. GermanJoe (talk) 09:50, 19 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. Thanks for the support vote! Lemurbaby (talk) 10:55, 19 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't there anything more recent than 1935 for the history section? --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:18, 19 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Everything more recent is discussed in the Contemporary section. Lemurbaby (talk) 21:51, 19 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oops! :P --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:10, 22 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support: I provided a thorough review during the first FAC nomination of this article. All of my concerns were addressed then, and I see nothing that would cause me to change my support this time around. – VisionHolder « talk » 03:00, 22 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The lead must not contain any references, as it only summarizes the information given below. TGilmour (talk) 17:04, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Is that comment regarding the reference on the photo caption in the lead? I didn't see any refs in the actual text part of the lead but perhaps my eye is missing it. Lemurbaby (talk) 17:23, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

TGilmour, that information is incorrect; please familiarize yourself with WP:LEAD and WP:WIAFA. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:48, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

~~I'm a bit concerned... will this be promoted with only two supporting votes and no opposing votes?~~ Lemurbaby (talk) 10:04, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You're looking for 3 or more supports, but the reviewers also need to indicate that they've given the article a thorough review. Any opposes would have to find important flaws in the article, and you would have to fail to address them. As long as you address all concerns, here and/or in the article, you should be fine. Unfortunately, getting reviews is tough for everyone. And being new to the FAC process makes it harder because you probably feel uncomfortable doing your own reviews. At this point, I'd say that it's best to jump on in, carefully read the FAC criteria, and start doing some reviews to the best of your ability. If you're lucky, this and your future FACs may receive more traffic as a result. At least that's the theory. – VisionHolder « talk » 15:18, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support ~~Comments~~ Close to support, and it's good to have a food and drink article, but some niggles Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:45, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Names of countries, including Madagascar, should not be linked

Fixed. Lemurbaby (talk) 02:48, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Overlinking. Are readers really going to need a link to onion, tomato etc. I've removed a few, but there plenty more unnecessary links including repeats of some I delinked

Fixed. As regards ingredients, I only retained links to those that might not be immediately known by an Anglophone 5th-grader. Lemurbaby (talk) 02:48, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Inconsistency in giving local names for non-native ingredients. Why rice, beef and prickly pear, but not tomato and ginger? Wikipedia is not a dictionary, so I'd suggest sticking to Madagascan names only for endemic ingredients and dishes

Fixed, I think. After a read-through, I've kept the local names for dishes and for ingredients that are somewhat less common in the grocery stores of Anglophone countries. Note that oftentimes the name of a dish is simply the name of the primary ingredient, which is why I provide the local names for things like fish, beef, eel etc. Lemurbaby (talk) 02:48, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Overuse of italics. I would suggest that biryani, croissant etc are Anglicised enough not to need italics. It's also inconsistent — why are samosa and vinaigrette spared?

Fixed. I switched to using italics on the first use of foreign non-Anglicised words only. I have to remark, however, that it makes for a somewhat humorous effect when it comes to the word mofo (even if the word in Malagasy is pronounced "moof"). Lemurbaby (talk) 02:48, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Changed to support above Jimfbleak - talk to me? 05:33, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

~~Question for the reviewers~~: I'm noticing the need for greater consistency in providing the pronunciation of Malagasy-language terms. After comparison with other GA food and drink articles, I'm seeing the pronunciation is not provided throughout the article. However, these examples are all Romance language-based (i.e. French cuisine, Italian cuisine, even Mayan cuisine uses Spanish for the most part), where most Anglophone readers will know basically how the words should sound. This isn't the case with Malagasy words where the pronunciation is not self-evident (i.e. "o" is pronounced "oo"). Part of me feels it's important for people to know how to say these words correctly, but that means adding in even more descriptive pronunciation in places where it's currently been omitted. Please advise. Lemurbaby (talk) 02:48, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I am fine with adding more pronounciation, but agree it is only really needed for the non-European / Malagasy names. Could these be added as notes perhaps? Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 01:39, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I added the rest of the pronunciation. I could do them as notes but would like a second opinion on that before going forward with the change. Is this how pronunciation issues have been handled in other articles? If there is a precedent I wouldn't hesitate. I guess that's what it comes down to - I feel like we're setting a precedent here so we need to figure out how it should be done (unless someone is aware of how a similar situation was dealt with before). Lemurbaby (talk) 11:57, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support I did a copyedit on this article a while back and it has improved since then. Comprehensive and well structured with more than adequate referencing. ► Philg88 ◄ ^talk 20:54, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support I did a peer review on this some time ago and on re-reading it just now I find it is even better now, and that it fully meets the FA criteria. My only quibble is that the addition of pronunciation is not done consistently - sometimes the IPA are in square brackets and parentheses like "rum (toaka gasy [ˌtokə̥ ˈɡasʲ])", while others are only in square brackets like "rum, called betsabetsa [ˌbetsəˈbetsə̥],". Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:07, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed, I believe. Lemurbaby (talk) 00:34, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Image review I reviewed all of the images in the article and they are all freely licensed. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:07, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Source review (cont'd):

Have spotchecks been done? Karanacs (talk) 20:22, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I tried to do this myself, and got stalled on this source. Perhaps I'm using the search function wrong, but I couldn't find any of the words in the text cited in the source (canoe, outrigger, etc), and I get the impression the paper is about a hypothesis, but we see statements of fact in the text. Can someone clarify, and point out the exact sentences from the source used to support the text cited?

In their outrigger canoes they carried food staples from home including rice, plantains, taro, and water yam.[4] Sugarcane, ginger, sweet potatoes, pigs and chickens were also probably brought to Madagascar by these first settlers, along with coconut and banana.[4]

Next I tried to check pages 107 to 111 here, but they aren't in the preview, so I'm afraid I made no progress. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:05, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I tried searching the first source Sandy mentioned and it is not searchable at all (even words like Ocean and the author's last name came up as not found). I read 9 of the first 23 pages and it discusses plantains, taro, water yam and and Autronesians carrying them with them in their boats. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 00:14, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
PS, I see a mixture of spaced endashes and unspaced emdashes in the article text-- pls be consistent. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:08, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed use of n- and m-dashes in line with MoS guidance. Lemurbaby (talk) 11:57, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Lead comments:

"Malagasy cuisine encompasses the many diverse culinary traditions of the Indian Ocean island of Madagascar, each reflecting various degrees of influence from the Southeast Asian, African, Indian, Chinese and European migrants that have settled on the island since it was first populated by seafarers from Borneo between 100 CE and 500 CE." This is a massive sentence. I am of the opinion that there are far too many ideas being crammed into one sentence, which is particularly problematic since this is the illustrious opening sentence. Considering that the lead is meant to give a broad overview of the subject, is it necessary to mention when the island was first populated? I think not.
It's a long sentence but not a run-on. I personally like it as a lead, but maybe others would like to propose something else? Lemurbaby (talk) 00:34, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the population date, it does seem important as well since Madagascar was the last major landmass to be populated by people, and quite recently too, which has had an impact on how long the cuisine has had to develop. How would you like to see this handled? Lemurbaby (talk) 11:57, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"which contributed to the extinction of the island's megafauna." Is this relevant to a cuisine article? Perhaps, but not so important that it should be mentioned in an already massive lead.
One of the distinguishing features of Madagascar is its unique ecological diversity and endemism. In fact, I would suspect most people looking for information about Madagascar are looking to learn about the animals, not the people (there are many FA-grade articles on Malagasy animals, for example, but this will be the first related to culture). I think this is a point of interest for readers and a good hook to keep them reading as well. Lemurbaby (talk) 00:34, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
From my experience, it is not common practice to include the pronunciation of foreign words with the exception of the title of the article. I particularly disagree with the inclusion of vary; if this were a particular variety of rice, its inclusion would be logical, but as far as I can tell, vary is simply the Malagasy word for rice.
There is no way to overstate how important rice is in the local diet. It really IS the meal, every meal, every day, and as such merits translation - laoka is just a bonus. Additionally, I explain the translation of "to eat" as "to eat rice", and translating vary allows the reader to potentially draw the connection with the translation of the verb (in theory) - mihinam-BARY - particularly if they click through to the article on Malagasy language and see that V becomes B in some contexts.

As far as pronunciation, it's true that no other FA-grade cuisine article has pronunciation throughout like this. At the same time, the others are written using languages more English-speaking readers are likely to be familiar with (i.e. Romance languages) so pronunciation is less likely to matter. Spoken Malagasy is often so far from how it's written that readers are going to read it through and hear the incorrect pronunciation in their minds. I guess the question is, what's worse, unusual inclusion of translation or incomplete learning by way of wrong mental pronunciation? I could go either way but I think it's a point worth discussing all together. As I mention above we are possibly setting a precedent here by including the pronunciation throughout so we need to discuss collectively whether and how it should be done. Lemurbaby (talk) 00:34, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"In parts of the arid south and west, pastoral families may replace rice with maize," This reads like a suggestion for the reader rather than a summary of what actually happens. I suggest replacing "may" with "often", "sometimes", or some other frequency word.
It may not be advisable to use a frequency word because I have no source for how frequently it happens. Lemurbaby (talk) 00:34, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have a question that does not appear to be answered in the lead (nor, as far as I can tell, in the body of the article): To what extent has Malagasy cuisine influenced other chefs/cuisines? With Madagascar having served as a trading port for so much of its history, surely its culinary traditions must have seeped out into neighboring areas at some point. On a similar note, are there any foods or drinks (perhaps the spiced rums) that are made primarily on Madagascar that are then exported to other countries?
Thank you for raising this point. The cuisine hasn't traveled far in terms of influence (although the expat community has set up their restaurants here and there overseas), but it has been important in Reunion, Mauritius and to a lesser extent Comoros and Seychelles where Malagasy were taken as slaves in the 18th-19th centuries. I'll put together a few sentences on this over the weekend. Thank you for your review and comments, Cryptic.Lemurbaby (talk) 00:34, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

-- Cryptic C62 · Talk 17:42, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.