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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Luo Yixiu/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 09:07, 5 November 2014 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Luo Yixiu

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Nominator(s): Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:44, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the first wife of later Chinese communist political leader Mao Zedong. Little is known of her, and thus this is a fairly short article. It was ignored during its prior FAC (summer 2013) so it would be great if people could give it a look over and a review this time. Best, Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:44, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Hamiltonstone. One query. The article states "The wedding ceremony culminated with the guests entering the bridal chamber, where they would make various sexual references and innuendos, led by a figure with his face painted black.[7] The bride had to show the bloodstains on the bed sheets from her wedding night to prove that her hymen had been broken during sexual intercourse, and that she had therefore been a virgin" and cites this text to Pantsov and Levine. Are we clear whether the authors are describing a traditional ceremony of the period in general, or are they saying that these specific rituals were definitely followed in the case of this particular wedding. If the former, suggest wording be tweaked to begin "The wedding ceremony would have culminated..." hamiltonstone (talk) 13:44, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your support, Hamiltonstone. I've consulted the Pantsov and Levine biography, and unfortunately it does not make clear whether they are referring to the specific rituals that Mao and Luo went through or whether they are instead discussing the general wedding rituals of that time and place. Given that the wedding rituals are not discussed in Red Star Over China however, I think it apparent that the latter is almost certainly the case, so I have made the minor correction that you suggested. Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:59, 29 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Madalibi

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Comment – Sounds like a fine piece of work considering how little info there is on her. I will try to read the article more closely later. For now just one question: why is her name given as Luo Yigu when the pinyin transliteration gives her name as Luo Yixiu? If this is more than a mistake, shouldn't this discrepancy be explained somewhere in the article? Madalibi (talk) 15:10, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your interesting comment, Madalibi. I am far from being an expert in Chinese transliteration, although Pantsov and Levine, whose biography of Mao is the most up-to-date and thoroughly researched available in the English language, renders her name as "Luo Yigu", and thus I have followed their example. I thus presume that that is the Pinyin name, and that there is therefore a mistake in the article, which I have now corrected. Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:12, 29 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Midnightblueowl, and sorry for not getting back to you sooner. The Chinese characters 一秀 are unambiguously pronounced "Yixiu", not "Yigu", so this is not a simple pinyin mistake. The French, Norwegian, and Swedish pages have "Luo Yixiu", whereas the Ripuarian page and the Bahasa Indonesian page (whose biography is copied on that of the English page) have Luo Yigu. A Google search for "Luo Yigu" leads to Wikipedia and mirror pages, whereas a search for "Luo Yixiu," leads to many pages on Mao's first wife that are not based on Wikipedia. Based on this, I'd say "Luo Yigu" is most likely a mistake. If you have access to Pantsov and Levine's book, could you check their index carefully to see what they say about Luo's name, or whether they explain why they call her Luo Yigu instead of Luo Yixiu? That way we can clarify this unusual issue! And how do the other books call her? Madalibi (talk) 07:10, 3 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Oddly, Ross Terrill in his Mao: A Biography (1980), Clare Hollingworth in her Mao and the Men Against Him (1985), and Lee Feigon in his Mao: A Reinterpretation (2002), don't actually mention her name. Jung Chang and John Halliday in their (deeply problematic) book, Mao: The Untold Story (2005) describe her only as "Woman Luo" and do not use her personal name. However, in their book, Mao: The True Story (2012), Pantsov and Levine very explicitly refer to her as "Luo Yigu" with no mention at all made of "Luo Yixiu"; they do not clarify why they use this spelling, and their referencing on this issue links back to Edgar Snow's original Red Star Over China as well as to several Chinese-language sources. A perplexing issue, but I shall try to consult a copy of another authoritative text, Philip Short's biography of Mao, over the coming week. Best, Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:05, 3 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I've checked, and Philip Short simply refers to her as "Miss Luo". Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:50, 9 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Midnightblueowl: Thank you for looking into this issue, and sorry for being out of touch for so long! What you tell us means that we have four different names on our hands: Luo Yigu, Luo Yixiu, Woman Luo, and Miss Luo. The last two are translations of Luo shi 罗氏 ("[woman] surnamed Luo"), in which shi means family name, as Chinese women did not (and still do not) adopt their husband's surname after marriage. The fact that Short and Chang & Halliday both refer to her as "Luoshi" probably means that her personal name is not well known. Note, however, that the difference between "Yixiu" and "Yigu" is not a difference in spelling. Yixiu and Yigu are Romanizations of different characters. Yixiu is 一秀, whereas Yigu would probably be 一姑, in which gu 姑 means "girl". I must admit I have no idea how to handle this kind of issue. Could we readjust the lead and the relevant sections to say that different sources refer to her by different names (ironically, we're still missing a reliable source for Luo Yixiu)? And could we, without falling into original research, state that most biographies of Mao do not even give her last name? Madalibi (talk) 14:54, 19 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Reasonable sources for Luo Yixiu are not lacking, and it is important to get this right, especially if "Yigu" is more a generic term than a personal name, as Madalibi suggests. Johnbod (talk) 14:18, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have requested that an academic friend of mine contact Steven Levine directly (his professional email address can be found here) to see if the Sinologist (as co-author of Mao: The True Story) might be able to shed some light on this particular issue. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:44, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, apparently Levine has responded, asserting that he was unsure on this issue himself, because he was translating Pantsov's Russian-language work. Could it be that there has been a problem in the translation from Mandarin to Russian to English, thus rendering "Luo Yixiu" as "Luo Yigu" ? Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:33, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have incorporated two of the sources which User:Johnbod has identified using Google Books into this article. While both should probably count as "reliable sources", neither has however been authored by a scholar who is recognised as a specialist on Mao, and neither detail where they obtained their information from; indeed, given the dates of their authorship (2009 and 2013), it might be suggested that they were actually authored using Wikipedia as a partial basis, thus meaning that their use of "Luo Yixiu" is not particularly reliable here. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:08, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Madalibi here. There's no dispute about her Chinese name. Virtually all Chinese sources record her name as 罗一秀, which is unambiguously transliterated as Luo Yixiu. As Johnbod pointed out, many English sources use the Luo Yixiu spelling. In fact, Pantsov is the only book I can find that spells her name as "Luo Yigu". -Zanhe (talk) 08:53, 2 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
So do we have a consensus to rename the article "Luo Yixiu" ? Johnbod, Madalibi, Zanhe ? Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:59, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Good for me Johnbod (talk) 19:04, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Fine with me too. Madalibi (talk) 09:40, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks; I will go ahead and make the move. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:52, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Would you now consider offering a support/oppose opinion, Madalibi ? No pressure to do so if you'd rather not, though! Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:34, 9 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Midnightblueowl, and thank you for reminding me of my commitment! I'm sorry for never giving the article a close reading as I said I would. Here are my detailed comments.

Writing style (mostly)

  • Like Mao, to whom she was distantly related, she was from the area around Shaoshan, Hunan, in south central China, and came from an impoverished local landowning family. It's unclear whether "like Mao" extends to the end of the sentence: did both Mao and Luo come from "an impoverished local landowning family"? If so, then this sentence contradicts the article on Mao, which states that Mao's father was an "impoverished peasant who had become one of the wealthiest farmers in Shaoshan." If not, the grammar should be clarified.
    • Mao's family certainly weren't impoverished, so we must avoid giving that impression here. But I'm nevertheless not entirely sure of the best way to change this particular sentence without it losing its readability. Anyone got any suggestions on this one ? Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:21, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Maybe this? "She came from an impoverished local landowning family from the area around Shaoshan, Hunan, in south central China, the same region as Mao, to whom she was distantly related." Madalibi (talk) 15:30, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • I've gone with "Coming from the area around Shaoshan, Hunan, in south central China – the same region as Mao – her family were impoverished local landowners." I believe that this reads fairly smoothly, and removes the section on the relation between Mao and Luo, because an editor has elsewhere on this page questioned the appropriateness of referring to the couple as "distantly related" given that all human beings are distantly related to one another. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:02, 26 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • ...although Mao went through with the wedding ceremony...: "went through" sounds too colloquial for an encyclopedia. I also think the semi-colon (";") just before this clause should be replaced by a period ("."), because the two halves of the sentence are neither grammatically nor logically related.
  • Socially disgraced, she moved in and lived with Mao's parents for two years...: considering Mao's age and Chinese customs, the bride would have been expected to move in with the Mao family regardless of whether Mao accepted her as his bride. In other words, she didn't move in with his parents because she was socially disgraced, but because this was the normal thing to do. Cut "moved in and"?
  • ... before her death from dysentery: "until she died of dysentery" would sound both clearer and more fluid.
  • He would remarry a further three times: just "he would remarry three times" or "he would marry three more times" would do the job.
  • ...eventually entering communist politics: I'm not sure there was a field called "communist politics" that Mao could enter at the time. Can you think of another wording?
  • Luo Yixiu's name meant "First Daughter": "Yigu", not "Yixiu", means first daughter; this statement is sourced to Pantsov and Levine, but our new consensus is that they were probably wrong about Luo's name, so this claim should either be deleted or added to the textual note that explains her name.
  • ...that the Luo family were locally important: here I would use the singular, as the Luo family was probably important as a unit rather than for the totality of its members.
  • ...to the Luo family house, with the Luo family being socially expected...: this use of "with" at the beginning of a clause is weak.
  • Luo Helou was happy to see his eldest daughter married: as an independent sentence, this should come after a period, not a semicolon.
  • Following this, gifts were exchanged, and the marriage contract signed, after which the marriage was considered inviolable. "Following this" seems unnecessary, and the sentence is too passive. Could reword as "The two families exchanged gifts and signed the marriage contract, after which..."
  • marriage to Wang had been ruled out by a local geomancer because their horoscopes were incompatible: geomancer (who divines based on signs from the ground) and horoscope are probably the wrong words. Sinologists sometimes use "geomancer" to refer to fengshui masters, so this is probably what Levine's translation of Pantsov's book was trying to convey. Fortune-teller or diviner (for geomancer) might be better in this context, though of course we have to be careful not to deviate too far from our reliable source. "Horoscope" probably refers to Mao and Wang's "eight characters" (bazi 八字), two each for their year, month, day, and hour of birth. Would you agree to replacing the link to horoscope with a piped link to either Chinese astrology or the Four Pillars of Destiny (= bazi)?
  • Mao agreed to go through with the marriage to Luo: a bit wordy, and "go through" is colloquial. "Mao agreed to marry Luo"?
  • There, her veil would be removed...: because the nearby sentences are in the past perfect, this should read "would have been removed"
  • to the ancestral altar: this ritual meant that the newlyweds were introducing themselves to the Maos' paternal ancestors: specify "to the groom's ancestral altar"? You could also add a piped link either to Ancestor veneration in China.
  • where they would make various sexual references and innuendos: "where they would have made"
  • Mao Zedong returned home: do we know when and why? And to get rid of the semicolon after "home", could you reword to "When Mao returned home [+ explanation of when or why?], his father forgave him..."
  • his son's studies at the Dongshan Higher Primary School: here could you just confirm that "primary school" is right? After all, Mao was 14 at the time!
  • Shaoshanchong: this name appears at the end of the "Married life" section and in an image caption, but it is not explained. How does it differ from Shaoshan?
  • This [Lee Feigon's] idea was also supported by journalist and sinologist Clare Hollingworth. The phrasing makes it sound as though Hollingworth supported Feigon's idea after having heard of it, but Hollingworth wrote in 1985 and Feigon in 2002.
  • Mao would proceed to marry a further three wives...: "would proceed to" sounds wordy and "a further three wives" sounds heavy. "Would marry three more times", "would take three more wives" or something of the sort would sound better.

That should be it for now. After these issues are solved, I will be glad to support the article. Madalibi (talk) 01:06, 11 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Follow-up on writing style:

  • Although Mao took part in the wedding ceremony, he was unhappy with the marriage, never consummating it and refusing to live with his wife: the section on "Married life" starts by saying that "According to what he told Snow, Mao refused to live with his wife, and claimed that they never consummated their marriage." The lede should not present Mao's account as fact. This point will become more important when we integrate the Chinese sources into the article, because they claim that despite what he told Snow, Mao did live with Luo intermittently after their marriage.
  • Born on October 20, 1889, Luo Yixiu's father...: now that the phrase about Luo Yixiu's name is gone, this no longer makes sense.
  • historian Lee Feigon asserted: here I'm really getting into minor details, but you should probably use a more neutral verb than "asserted" (see WP:SAY).
  • ... Mao Yichang, who decided to deal with his son in a manner typical of the time, through forcing him into an arranged marriage: to my admittedly non-native ears, "dealing with someone through [verb]-ing" sounds awkward: replace "through" with "by"?
  • He also desired a helper to assist his own wife: "a helper to assist" may be redundant: replace with "a helper for his own wife"?
  • the Luo family would have been socially expected to accept the marriage proposal immediately: "socially expected", "culturally expected": why not just "expected"?
    • I disagree on this point; if we simply use "expected", then some readers might assume that the Mao family simply expected an affirmitive answer from the Luo family, whereas – if I understand the source correctly – it was actually a social convention that the woman's family would accept the proposal of marriage. Thus, I think that referring to it as being "socially expected" conveys the necessary infomation in a way that simply using "expected" does not. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:13, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • To me "the family would have been expected" was impersonal, so it naturally referred to social expectations, but some readers may disagree with my interpretation, so let's keep "socially" as you suggest! Madalibi (talk) 01:04, 13 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • after which the marriage was considered inviolable: not sure "inviolable" is the right word. Do you mean that after these procedures, the marriage agreement was considered established?
  • According to tradition, a display of fireworks would probably have taken place: "According to tradition" is probably redundant here, as this entire account is about how a wedding would have proceeded "under rural Hunanese custom".
  • Mao would marry three more wives over the course of his life. In December 1920 he married Yang Kaihui; in May 1928 he married He Zizhen; and in November 1939 he wedded Jiang Qing: "marry a wife" is a pleonasm: "marry three more women"? And to avoid using the verb "marry" three times in the same sentence, could simplify to "Mao would marry three more women over the course of his life: Yang Kaihui in December 1920, He Zizhen in May 1928, and Jiang Qing in November 1939."
  • Alexander V. Pantsov and Stephen I. Levine asserted that her name was "Luo Yigu": here "asserted" may be right (despite WP:SAY), but at least one of the Chinese sources I found uses the name "Luo Yigu" (the same as Pantsov and Levine), so a more neutral verb may be necessary after all.
  • He would remarry three more times: he had never remarried before, so here we need either "He would marry three more times" or "He would remarry three times". Madalibi (talk) 01:04, 13 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

More substantial issues

  • The Chinese page on Luo Yixiu and a Chinese book I found in the Google search posted by Crisco 1492 claim that the wedding took place in 1907, not 1908. By East Asian age reckoning, in which you're one year old as soon as you're born, Luo Yixiu would indeed have been 18 at the time. By this account, she lived at the Maos' place for three years, not two. That book also claims that Mao did live with Luo in his parents' home for a while, and that he even wrote a poem about her after her death. In 1950, he sent his grandson Mao Anying to visit Luo Yixiu's uncle in Shaoshan. Unfortunately it doesn't cite any source.
  • Interestingly, a semi-scholarly article by Lü Chun 吕春 called "Six Women who Influenced Mao Zedong" 影响毛泽东一生的六位女性 (in Chinese), published in Dangshi wenyuan 党史文苑 (a journal on CCP history) in 2009, states that Luo Yixiu was the eldest daughter and could also therefore be called Yigu. After Pantsov and Levine, I think this is the first reliable source we find to support the name Yigu. The section on Luo (entitled "Ms. Luo: a victim of arranged marriage") is brief, but it explains the family relation between Mao and Luo and gives a few details on her behavior when she lived at the Maos' place. Here dates of birth and death appear to come from the Mao family genealogy.
  • I also found an article (in Chinese) entirely devoted to Mao's first marriage. The reference is Hu Changming 胡长明 and Liu Shengsheng 刘胜生, "A few historical facts about Mao Zedong's first marriage" 毛泽东第一次婚姻的若干史实, Research on Mao Zedong Thought 毛泽东思想研究, 1996.2: 111-114. I managed to download the pdf, but I don't have time to read it until this coming week. A quick reading indicates that Luo Yixiu was Luo Helou's eldest daughter, and that Luo Helou's wife was surnamed Mao and was the daughter of Mao Yongtang, one of Mao Zedong's great-grandfathers. This article claims the wedding took place on 1908, based on deduction from the age of the newlyweds. Luo Helou's dates are 1871-1943. As for Mao's opposition to arranged marriage, it appears that in 1919 he wrote more than 10 newspaper articles following the suicide of a girl in Changsha in protest against arranged marriage. There are more details (location of Luo's tomb, several later visits to his former father-in-law, posthumous adoption of a son [also mentioned in Lü Chun's article], etc.), but I'm out of time. I can do the detailed work this coming week when I have more time on my hands. Madalibi (talk) 03:45, 11 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have started to integrate information from Hu and Liu's text into the article (here's the diff). This is taking more time than I thought because Hu and Liu mention all kinds of facts and issues that are not addressed in this article, and I'm not sure how to integrate them properly. I will continue tomorrow. In the mean time, I have thought of a new content question:
  • Mao Zedong had taken a rebellious attitude towards his disciplinarian father Mao Yichang: after reading Hu and Liu, this sentence seems a bit abrupt to begin a section. What was he rebellious about? It seems that in 1906 Mao Zedong forcefully quit the Mao lineage school because he didn't like the teaching style of the main instructor. Despite his father's protests and beatings, he stayed out of school until 1909. Hu and Liu see the arranged marriage as a way of forcing MZD to take responsibilities. Could you confirm the content of MZD's conflicts with his father and assess whether Hu and Liu's interpretation makes sense?
  • Hu and Liu also say that Mao went back to school at the Shaoshan Dongmaotang 韶山东茅塘 (very near his place) in 1909, possibly as a wa to avoid married life. Can this be confirmed?
    • According to Pantsov and Levine (pp. 25–26), Mao "ran away from home and lived for a year in the house of an unemployed student, also in Shaoshan. He continued his avid reading[...]". They then add that Mao only requested that he proceed to school (the Dongshan Higher Primary School, which was fifteen miles from Shaoshan), in the fall of 1910. There is no mention of him attending Shaoshan Dongmaotang in 1909. From Short (p. 30) we instead have "He started studying again, this time at a private school in the village run by an elderly scholar who was a clansman, and shortly after his fifteenth birthday, told his father he no longer wished to be apprenticed at Xiangtan. He wanted to enrol at junior middle school instead". These accounts to be in slight conflict. Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:30, 26 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I may have other questions as I keep working on the article. Madalibi (talk) 09:39, 15 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Image check

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Images are appropriately licensed and captioned. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:40, 2 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Crisco 1492

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Is this a hard and fast rule, or – as I get the impression from reading WP:LEADLENGTH – more of a guideline ? I feel that the current three paragraph system works well in this instance. Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:13, 6 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's a recommendation, but one I strongly suggest following here. The article is 1068 words as of the time of writing. 250 of those words are in the lead. A full quarter of the article is in the lead... don't you think that's a bit much? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:42, 6 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Certainly, it would be possible to cut material out, although I fear that this would be to the detriment of the article itself. For instance the names of Mao's later wives could be expunged and the third lede paragraph thus amalgamated into the second. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:01, 19 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Okay Crisco 1492, I have gone ahead and made the suggested change. I think it looks alright, but do let me know if you have any further comments. All the best, Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:49, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Review by Crisco 1492

  • "Mao Ligu" in the infobox... far as I know, Chinese women don't take on their husband's family names. Having the same family name for a husband and wife would be considered incest
  • Although displeased by the arrangement, Mao agreed to go through with it. - We're not on Wang anymore, so "it" has to be restated
  • How do we know Pantsov and Levine's claim is authoritative?
    • Hmm, problematic. I had assumed that their work was, given that it is the most recent publication, is based on (Moscow-based) sources not used in any other biographies, and is a denser, more detailed volume than many others. But this is an issue under debate, and it is one that will need greater scrutiny. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:56, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • There, her veil was removed, and she was expected to express her unhappiness and dissatisfaction with Mao by publicly insulting him, calling him a "drunkard", a "hairy insect" and a "ravenous, lazy, and tobacco-addicted dog." - Did she? Was he? Per above. (Sounds like a fun way to start a marriage).
  • kowtowed - kowtowed is already part of the English language (included in both Oxford and Merriam-Webster). As such, it should not be italicised
  • The wedding ceremony would have culminated with the guests entering the bridal chamber, where they would make various sexual references and innuendos, led by a figure with his face painted black. - would have, again. So what, it didn't happen, or it was traditional, or...?
  • He would remarry a further three times throughout his life, to Yang Kaihui, He Zizhen and Jiang Qing. is unreferenced
    • I wasn't really sure that it needed referencing, however I have added the information to the "Influence on Mao" section and have ensured that it is referenced there, so as not to end up with references in the lede. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:43, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Most of what is known about their marriage comes from an account Mao gave to American reporter Edgar Snow in 1936, which Snow included in his book Red Star Over China. - also unreferenced
  • So... erm... have any Chinese-language sources been consulted (Google has a couple, not sure how accessible they are)? How were the dates of birth and death determined? Are there any images of her? Baidu claims to have one, and says simply "spring 1910" for her death. Did you work out whether this should be "Xiu" or "Luo"? Did Mao discuss her / mention her in his later years, or did he ignore whatever (small or large) small role she played in his life? Too many questions... — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:29, 20 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm afraid that I am unable to read Chinese characters, so those sources are of little utility to me; I know that Terrill recommends "Ssu Ma-shu in Tien-wen t'ai-pao', Hong Kong, 12/20/58" as a source, while Spence recommends "Xiao Feng in Mao Zedong zhimi (Beijing, 1992), pp. 128–29", but again I am unable to obtain or read these articles. Regarding the Baidu image, I am intrigued although far from convinced of its authenticity; certainly none of the sources in this article included any pictures of her. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:30, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie

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Support Comments. I'll add notes here as I go through the article.

  • "He would remarry a further three times throughout his life, to Yang Kaihui, He Zizhen and then Jiang Qing": why "and then"?
  • "who highlighted that she was eighteen": "highlighted" isn't the right word here. How about "emphasized", or "made clear", or "confirmed", depending on how the sources phrase it?
  • 'There, her veil was removed, and she was expected to express her unhappiness and dissatisfaction with Mao by publicly insulting him, calling him a "drunkard", a "hairy insect" and a "ravenous, lazy, and tobacco-addicted dog."' This makes it sounds as if she was expected to express these very specific insults. (I assume that we're talking here about general wedding ceremonies of the time, not about this specific ceremony.) Is that the case? Or are these simply examples of the kind of insult brides were expected to use? If so, I think the wording needs to be tweaked.
    • The book quoted doesn't make this particularly clear, unfortunately, so I'm not sure that I am able to answer your question in the affirmative or negative ? Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:32, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Okay, going back to the text in question (page 26 of Pantsov and Levine, it states "Following the local custom, the wedding feast, to which numerous relatives and friends were invited, began in the groom's home[...] The girl was supposed to express her unhapiness, to cry, and to accuse her future husband of his failings, calling him a "hairy insect," "a ravenous, lazy, and tobacco-addicted dog," a "drunkard," and so forth." This being the case, I think it apparent that these were the sort of insults that would have been expected at the time, but might not have actually been commented in this particular instance; we seem to have no direct information on the wedding itself, but Pantsov and Levine are trying to reconstruct what it probably would have been like. Do you have any suggestions for how the prose in the article could be improved or clarified here ? Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:35, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • Consulting both Pantsov and Levine (p. 26) and now Short (p. 649), I think it very much clear that they are reconstructing the wedding on the basis of traditional Chinese customs; as Short has it, these were "ceremonies still practised in rural China in the 1990s". Thus, I have altered the prose accordingly. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:13, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'Mao later told Snow that "I do not consider her my wife"': delete "that".
    • I disagree on this point; although both are acceptable uses of language, I prefer things as they are. However, I am more than happy to hear other views on the issue. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:09, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      I've struck this as the change is incorporated into another edit you made in response to a point below. I'm pretty sure that "that" is incorrect here; it's used for reported speech without quotes: "Mao told Snow that he did not consider her his wife". It's never used for quoting speech, though it can occur before quotes in sentences such as 'Mao said that "nobody knew her name"', where removing the quotes doesn't alter the sense. If you'd like to restore it, let's ask for opinions on the FAC talk page. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:56, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "made no mention that she was dead": this is an odd phrase. More natural would be "made no mention of the fact that she was dead", or "did not mention that she was dead" or "had died"; or "did not make it clear that".
  • A separate point from the two above: you comment on the oddness of him not mentioning she was dead before letting the reader know she was dead. I think this would be better done chronologically: perhaps "Luo Yigu died of dysentery on February 11, 1910; but when Mao later told Snow "I do not consider her my wife", he made no mention of her death".
  • "Mao Zedong returned home, where his father forgave him for his disobedience; in autumn 1910, he agreed to finance his son's studies ...": the "he" in the second half of this should refer to the subject of the first half, but it doesn't; it refers to Mao Zedong's father. I think this needs to be tweaked. Perhaps "Mao Zedong returned home; his father forgave him for his disobedience, and in the autumn of 1910 agreed to finance his son's studies ..."
  • "journalist and Sinologist Clare Hollingworth": I'm not certain about this, but based on the usage I've seen I would not expect "Sinologist" to be capitalized.

That's everything I can see. I would be hesitant about supporting without seeing a resolution to the discussion above about Luo Yigu vs. Luo Yixiu; I know nothing about Chinese but I think there needs to be a consensus we have this right before the article can be promoted. -- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:05, 9 September 2014 (UTC) -- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:05, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much Mike, your comments were constructive and helped improve the article. I think that you are right with regards to the Luo Yigu/Yixiu issue; it would not be correct to "pass" this article at GAC while such a serious issue remained. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:52, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Everything is struck except the comment about her insults -- I agree with SnowFire below that perhaps a fuller quote would help resolve this. Once that's cleared up, and the spelling issue is resolved, I would be willing to support. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:56, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Switched to support above; both issues are now fixed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:25, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Per Mike Christie above, the '"drunkard", a "hairy insect" and a "ravenous, lazy, and tobacco-addicted dog."' quotes raise too many questions to just leave the reader hanging. Was Mao actually a drinker and/or cigarette smoker at this age? Was this specific to Mao or some kind of folk tradition or both (a folk tradition to give personal insults)? Perhaps quoting the (unclear?) source material more fully would help here, rather than just the insults. SnowFire (talk) 21:32, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose. I still don't like the phrasing - if the reader skims through, it still sounds like this is an actual account of the wedding, when it wasn't. I suggest tackling the historiography issue head-on: "The wedding took place in 1908, and according to authors A and B it followed traditional custom of the time. No direct records of the wedding exist, but according to author C, contemporary custom included a feast in the groom's home. The bride would have dressed in red on the next day and carried in a red palanquin to the groom's home." And so on. We don't know what Mao did or didn't do, but we can talk about generic brides & grooms.
Additionally, I think the name issue seems to be weighing against Luo Yigu above? It's really neat that you got in contact with the author who used the "Yigu" phrasing, but "it came from the Russian translation" isn't a reassuring answer for using "Mao: The True Story". I'd suggest using a straight Pinyin-based romanization if a reliable English-language source on the name can't be found (and per your current footnote, there are 2 weak sources using Yixiu currently anyway....). SnowFire (talk) 23:35, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Snowfire on both the above points. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:58, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your input guys; I too agree on both issues. The first one raised can be dealt with fairly easily (and I will do so now), but the latter issue is going to need further discussion and examination. We're going to need to get some users who can read Chinese in on this one. Best, Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:23, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(de-indent) For the name, I'm not sure if Chinese-reading Wikipedians will be that much help (although they might be able to help with adding to the article otherwise). The question is "what is Luo's name in English", after all, I doubt the Chinese characters used are much in dispute.

For the feast/customs, I'm still not particularly happy. Your edits make it seem like all brides in the province went to the Mao home; the "and so on" bit I wrote above meant rewriting the whole section. I just checked Pantsov on Google Books, and in the source it only refers to brides & grooms, not to the Mao family nor the Luo family. Additionally, the oddly specific insults line is different in Pantsov: it includes "and so forth" at the end, which makes it much more clear that these insults are merely examples. Let me be more direct in my concerns here: suppose this article were to appear on the Wikipedia front page. There's a certain human desire to want to show off quirky or exotic practices, which is fine, it adds a bit of spice to reading. However, it would be really awful to have false quirky practices on the Wikipedia front page. What exactly did Ross Terril say on p. 12 of his book? It's not on Google Books, but for something this weird, I'd want bulletproof "multiple scholars agree it's true" level sourcing. SnowFire (talk) 22:31, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies, but I must have missed this comment. I will endeavour to make alterations to the text within the next 24 hours. Best, Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:03, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I've made a few changes that I hope deal with the issues raised. Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:32, 9 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@SnowFire: Have you had a chance to revisit the article since you commented last? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:37, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Ian Rose: My complaints are largely dealt with, although I wasn't able to check the other sources listed for the wedding. Still, AGF that they're fine. Struck my oppose, call it a weak support. SnowFire (talk) 01:33, 9 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by Dudley Miles

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  • "Luo Helou and his wife had five sons and five daughters, of whom only three daughters survived infancy." This could be clearer. I took it at first to mean only that two of the five daughters died, not the sons as well.
  • "The couples' lack of adult sons diminished their societal status". I think "social" would be better here.
  • "who were expected to accept the marriage proposal immediately" - sounds a bit odd to me. I would delete.
    • I personally disagree on this point. The statement reflects a cultural custom that most people around the world would not be familiar with, and at the same time it is referenced to one of the Mao biographies; they deemed it worth highlighting, so why shouldn't we! Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:20, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "According to what he told Snow, Mao refused to live with his wife, and claimed that they never consummated their marriage with intimate physical relations." This is excessively wordy. Why not "Mao told Snow that he refused to live with his wife". Also, "with intimate physical relations" is superfluous. (Presumably there is no explanation for the apparent contradiction between Mao's claim and the statement above that the bride had to prove that she had lost her virginity.)
    • I agree that "with intimate physical relations" is superfluous; it has been removed. As to your (well-spotted) second point, I am unfortunately unable to provide any explanation, given that the sources themselves do not offer one. Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:20, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • It seems a non-sequitur saying that he became a fierce advocate of women's rights and citing as evidence his advocacy of love as the determinant of marriage - they are not necessarily connected. Dudley Miles (talk) 20:58, 29 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think that you have a fair point, but we are citing a specific source (the Lee Feigon biography) which argues that the experience of this arranged marriage did result in Mao's developing feminist views. Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:14, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Overview

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So we currently have "support" from Hamiltonstone, Mike Christie, and Dudley Miles, and a "weak support" from SnowFire, with the only instance of "weak oppose" – which was earlier provided by SnowFire – having been retracted. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:50, 10 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I added lots of new comments to the top of this page. This does not mean a formal "oppose", but I do think that these issues (which concern writing style and relevant information that I just found in Chinese sources) should be addressed before I can add my formal support. Cheers, Madalibi (talk) 03:49, 11 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Tezero

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Looks nice. Just a few things:

  • "a Han Chinese woman" - what's the relevance? The Han are the dominant ethnic group in China (~92%, IIRC), and I think Mao was Han as well - at the very least, I don't see why her ethnicity is of relevance, certainly not of first-sentence relevance.
    • While the Han certainly are the dominant ethnic group within the current People's Republic of China, we should not forget that it is of course a nation made up of many different ethnic groups; specifying that she was Han simply clarifies this somewhat, in a way that simply stating that she was "Chinese" does not. Still, I am open to other opinions on thi spoint. Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:57, 22 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "to whom she was distantly related" - All organisms on Earth are "distantly related", assuming primordial life has not arisen in distinct populations since its initial formation. Within humans, I recall hearing that everyone is at least 52nd cousins or something. Can you expand on her relation to him a little?
  • "only two li" - Can you specify how long this is in miles or km using parentheses?
  • "Soon after the wedding, he ran away from home, to live with an unemployed student in Shaoshan, spending much of his time reading, particularly historical works like Sima Qian's Records of the Grand Historian and Ban Gu's History of the Former Han Dynasty, and political tracts like Feng Guifen's Personal Protests from the Study of Jiao Bin." - Comma chameleon indeed. Mind splitting this up or rewriting?
  • The lead seems a little long considering the prose's size, especially the second paragraph.

Tezero (talk) 05:02, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note Hi Madalibi, is your review complete? Graham Beards (talk) 14:53, 25 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Whew, is this the longest-running FAC ever? I lost track of its age when it was renamed and appeared in WP:FACL as commencing on 6 October (date it was renamed no doubt). Anyway, I believe I've taken care of the housekeeping to deal with the rename, and I think Madalibi has had enough time to comment any further on what is after all a fairly short article. I'm therefore going to promote and ask that any further minor work take place (mercifully!) outside FAC... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:06, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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