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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Lou Henry Hoover/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 13 August 2023 [1].

Lou Henry Hoover edit

Nominator(s): Thebiguglyalien (talk) 04:10, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lou Henry Hoover is the most interesting U.S. first lady that no one knows about. She was the first woman to major in geology at Stanford, she participated in the Battle of Tientsin during the Boxer Rebellion, she made a landmark accomplishment in metallurgy when she translated one of the field's most influential books from Latin after it was presumed lost purely due to its complexity, she was one of the leaders of the British World War I relief effort for American and Belgian refugees, she led and reformed the Girl Scouts of the USA, and she became a household name for her food conservation advocacy, and that's all before she became first lady. While in the White House, she famously invited a Black Congressman's wife to tea despite widespread backlash, she was the first of the first ladies to give radio broadcasts, and she made countless donations to families in need during the Great Depression out of her own funds without telling anyone. She advocated gender equality throughout her life, and on this issue she was one of the earliest first ladies to openly engage in advocacy, setting precedent for her iconic successor Eleanor Roosevelt. This is the second U.S. first lady article that I'm nominating to FA, and probably my favorite to have worked on to this point. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 04:10, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review edit

  • File:Louhenryhoover.jpg: why is this believed to be a federal government work? It is credited to a news photography bureau
  • File:Lou_Henry_Hoover_Signature.svg: where specifically was this traced from?
    • That would be a question that can only be answered by the tracer, and I doubt they remember where they traced it from in 2009. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 03:40, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Lou.henry.on.a.burro.at.acton.CA.1891.08.22.jpg: source link is dead; if the author is unknown, how do we know they have released this work as PD?
  • File:Lou_Hoover_in_front_of_home_in_Tientsin,_China.jpg: source link is dead; when and where was this first published?
    • The source only says that it's from the Herbert Hoover Presidential Library and I'm unable to find further info. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 03:40, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Herbert_Hoover_and_Mrs._Hoover,_full-length_portrait,_seated_on_wicker_chairs,_facing_front_LCCN2002712178_(cropped).jpg: when and where was this first published? Ditto File:GIRL_SCOUTS_PICNIC_AT_HOME_OF_MRS._HERBERT_HOOVER_LCCN2016869391_(cropped).jpg
    • In both cases it's unclear, so I've removed the unverified tags, leaving their respective LoC no known restrictions tags. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 03:40, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Lou_Hoover_signature_in_Chinese_(cropped).jpg: source link is dead, missing a US tag
  • File:President_Hoover_portrait.jpg: if this was created in 1928, it cannot have been published before 1928 - why is it believed to be PD? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:27, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • I wasn't even aware that this was in the article until you pointed it out. I've replaced the 1928 tag. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 03:40, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Nikkimaria I've been unable to confirm anything else about File:Lou_Hoover_in_front_of_home_in_Tientsin,_China.jpg and File:Lou_Hoover_signature_in_Chinese_(cropped).jpg, so I've removed both of them. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:25, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria: - have these issues been satisfactorily resolved? Hog Farm Talk 22:49, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:52, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review pass from SusunW edit

Great blurb. I'm hooked! Will get back with comments in the next few days. SusunW (talk) 13:38, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments related to sourcing refer to: Special:permanentlink/1163375469

  • ISBNs should be properly segmented and standardized to 10- or 13- digits. Mujinga says this tool will automate the process, but I haven't tried it yet.
  • Per MOS all titles should be in Title Case, regardless of how the article lists them. This tool is handy.
  • Jeansonne & Luhressen 2016, p. 350. Harv error: link from CITEREFJeansonneLuhressen2016 doesn't point to any citation. (Citation spells 2nd author as Luhrssen)
  • Citations seem to be missing quite a bit of the typical data for MOS Cite web.
  • [120] link requires registration. Mark it as requiring subscription. Moreover, it's a primary source and would be better replaced by a secondary source like possibly this.
  • [121] is subscription only, but you can access the link from wayback. Either mark it as requiring subscription or insert archive.org link
  • [122] permanently dead link, none of the wayback links are accessible. Also appears to be primary source. There are secondary sources that confirm it is named after her [2], [3]
  • [123] appears to be primary and uncurated. There are secondary sources available[4], [5]
  • National First Ladies Library link is dead. Wayback has a link which should be included for accessibility.

Spot checks:

  • Schneider 2010
  • [4] Her family was nominally Episcopalian, but they were close to the local Quaker community. Source says “Her nominally Episcopalian family did not object when she went to Quaker meetings. Perhaps it is better to rephrase? Although her family were Episcopalian, she attended Quaker services.
  • [26] obituary, business ethics, checks out, but I am stuck on supporting her husband's decision to reimburse his employers at personal expense. Source says "She agreed with her husband and the other officers of the company that the loss must be covered, even at the risk of their own fortunes". Sounds to me as if he was an officer, not an employee?
  • [37], [46], [102], [109], claims check out, but you may want to rephrase 102 as it is a bit close to the source.
  • Young 2004
  • Link available here
  • [3], [5], [9], [38], [43] all check out
  • Allen 2000
  • [8], [55], [59], [89] no issues
  • [41] As her humanitarian efforts increased, she found herself responsible for so many operations As the previous sentence is speaking of hospitals, you may need to rephrase this to projects.
  • Caroli 2010
  • [17] Only confirms the last sentence. Everything between They were married in the Henrys' home and Quaker Meeting in Monterey only appears in Schneider.
  • [24] Artillery shelling was a constant danger throughout the conflict doesn't appear to be in the text. Several instances of attacks are stated, but the source doesn't indicate it was constant or how long it lasted.
  • [57], [108] are fine
  • Anthony 1990
  • [51], [75], [76] check out
  • [84] The onset of he Great Depression and the resulting backlash against her husband's presidency further discouraged her from saying anything that might be seen as controversial (fix "he" to "the"), but I don't see this in the text. Instead it says about the Depression only that it "was the sort of challenge she could tackle with Bert"…and as "First Lady could rally the nation". (p 438-439)
  • National First Ladies Library shows no issues with plagiarism in a url comparison of the version and wayback link. Similarities primarily are names of organizations and people.
  • Unsure why there are sources listed in further reading. If they have usable information, that should be cited in the article. For example She also returned to the Girl Scouts to serve as its president a second time from 1935 to 1937 is cited to a primary source, but Uncommon Americans, p 23 confirms it.
  • Not sure why the "external links" has so many entries. If they are valid sources, they should be used in the article. Link to her papers is fine, although were it me, I would just cite it in the legacy section. Link to De Re Metallica does not need to be linked to both Gutenberg and archive.org. The rest of it does not appear to contain information not already cited, some of it is unclear if it is curated, and should probably be removed.

Overall, fascinating article. Thanks for working on her. Please ping me when you want me to look again. SusunW (talk) 22:07, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

SusunW I've addressed all of your comments. In particular, I looked at the items in further reading to see what might be used there. There are still two books that are primarily about her husband, and Pryor (1969) isn't as high quality of a source because of its age and because it was written by a friend of Hoover's. One item from further reading, Mayer (1994), proved useful, and I was able to find a few tidbits in each essay. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 06:29, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thebiguglyalien All changes appear to be made or information removed with the one exception of web citations. However, all web cites are consistent in the material that they do present, so I won't make a huge deal about it. Thanks for your work and good luck. SusunW (talk) 13:44, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie edit

I've done a little copyediting; please revert anything you disagree with.

  • "of which she was the head": a bit awkward; perhaps "which she led"?
  • "The Hoovers first resided in China, during which time the Boxer Rebellion broke out": suggest giving the date here.
  • "they were present for the Battle of Tientsin": I think "at the battle" would be more natural, unless there's a nuance here I'm not seeing.
  • Suggest giving the years of their moves to London and DC in the lead.
  • "She provided humanitarian support with her husband during World War II": suggest something like "worked to provide" to make it clearer she was an organizer and fund-raiser rather than a direct volunteer in any way.
  • "requesting geological samples for Stanford's collection, which became one of the largest in the world": as written this implies her involvement helped it become so big. Does the source make this connection? I'm just wondering if she collected half a dozen samples or hundreds.
    • The source just says that Branner "duly attributed" the collection's completeness to her, so I've changed it to more closely reflect that. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 00:43, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "They participated in the Battle of Tientsin in 1900, where Lou worked as a nurse and managed food supplies while Herbert organized barricades": suggest "During the Battle of Tientsin in 1900 Lou worked as a nurse and managed food supplies while Herbert organized barricades".
  • "They often enjoyed the company of mining engineers, as members of the occupation were generally familiar with one another." I don't follow this -- the second half of the sentence seems to be a non sequitur.
  • "The Hoovers engaged in philanthropy during their time in London, and Lou would see to it that all of her friends and her servants had their needs addressed." Seems an odd thing to say -- her friends needed philanthropic help? Or was it more a case of generosity rather than philanthropy within her circle, and philanthropy outside it? Socially that's what I would expect.
    • Not sure what I was referencing here, so I've removed the mention of her friends. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 00:43, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "She traveled regularly to the United States and back despite the danger of crossing the North Atlantic during the war to give speeches and collect donations for relief efforts." Suggest "She traveled regularly to the United States and back to give speeches and collect donations for relief efforts, despite the danger of crossing the North Atlantic during the war."
  • 'She emphasized a "lead from behind" structure for Girl Scout troops in which he recommended that troop leaders "don't forget joy".' Presumably this should be "she recommended"?
  • Can you confirm Hoover's importance in the creation of the Women's Division of the NAAF (and I suggest the NAAF is worth a redlink)? I ask because p. 138 of Allen Guttmann's Women's Sports: A History, which I can see in Google Books, gives an account of the creation of the division that doesn't mention Hoover. I also found this: Theriot, Nancy. “Towards a New Sporting Ideal: The Women’s Division of the National Amateur Athletic Federation.” Frontiers: A Journal of Women Studies, vol. 3, no. 1, 1978, pp. 1–7. JSTOR, https://doi.org/10.2307/3345981. That also doesn't mention Hoover. However, I did find a review of Guttmann's book saying he ignored the role of Hoover in women's sports.
    • Cottrell (1996) and Beran (1994) seem confident that she had a major role in forming the Women's Division, though it's worth noting that these are sources specifically about Hoover, so naturally they're going to give focus to her contributions. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 00:43, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "or take up skills as new first ladies often did": what does "take up skills" mean?
    • The source gives learning a language as its example and then says that this isn't applicable to Hoover because she was already a polyglot. It doesn't really change much, but I've changed "take up skills" to "learn any new skills". Thebiguglyalien (talk) 00:43, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Hoovers would reinforce the precedent": suggest "The Hoovers reinforced the precedent".
  • "inviting other non-white musicians to play at the White House, including the Tuskegee Institute": I think we need a couple more words, as the Institute is not primarily a musical organization. Perhaps " inviting non-white musicians, including some from the Tuskegee Institute, to play at the White House"?
  • "Her refurbishing included": suggest "Her refurbishments included".
  • "but they retired from the White House after his loss in the 1932 presidential election": seems superfluous to say they left the White House.
  • "She was later reinterred to her husband's grave": wouldn't "in" be more natural than "to"?
  • "Outside women's issues, she rarely expressed political ideas of her own, presenting a unified position with the stances of her husband": the last part is a bit clumsy. How about "In order to present a position in line with her husband's political beliefs, she rarely expressed political ideas of her own except on women's issues"?
  • "Hoover held the Roosevelts in disregard": I don't think "disregard" can be used to mean low regard. How about "Hoover held the Roosevelts in low esteem" or "low regard", or more plainly "Hoover had a low opinon of the Roosevelts"?
  • "based on what they discerned from the text": suggest "based on what they read in the text" as plainer language.
    • I think something beyond read is necessary here, since it was a painstaking translation process. Leaving it as "discerned" for now, but I won't strongly object to changing it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 00:43, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "personal projects to promote the president's policy goals set an early precedent for the political role": might be worth de-alliterating this a little.
  • "similar to Roosevelt's own use of media": I suspect this refers to FDR, not Eleanor, but I think it should be clarified since Eleanor is the most recently mentioned Roosevelt.
    • This actually was in reference to Eleanor, so this definitely needs to be changed. I've changed it to "her successor's use of media". Thebiguglyalien (talk) 00:43, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Generally looks very good. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:33, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Mike Christie Thanks for the feedback! I've replied to a few points above, and I've incorporated your suggestions for all of them except the one noted above. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 00:43, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Had a quick look; will go through tomorrow again. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:37, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Everything struck above. I expect to support, but want to read through again first, probably tonight. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:03, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A couple of points from reading through again:

  • The lead says she was Stanford's first geology major, but the body only says she was the only geology major at the time she was there, and the first to receive a degree in geology.
    • Mike Christie The body does say that a few sentences later, but it is confusing to have two similar facts like that in different areas. I removed a sentence from the body to fix the redundancy. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 00:42, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      Maybe this is an AmEng thing -- the lead says she was the first female geology major: does that imply that she actually graduated, and not just that she studied as a geology major? I took it to mean the latter, and as far as I can see the body only claims the former. Or am I still missing something? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:50, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      I changed the wording in the lead so that it matches more precisely. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:12, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "She later transferred to San Jose Normal School (now San José State University)": I see you use the acute accent on "José" in the second instance; I would just edit the first to match, without bothering to post here, but I see that the target article itself doesn't have the accent, so I'm not sure where the error is, or even if the inconsistency is an error.

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:20, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support, and very rewarding to read -- she was a remarkable person. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:18, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Ian edit

Recusing coord duties to review, copyedited as I usually do so pls let me know any concerns there. Mike got in first with a few questions that also occurred to me, others:

  • She was well-liked in school, known for the science and literature clubs she organized and for her tendency to ignore gender norms -- does the source give any examples of how Lou flouted gender norms?
  • After graduation, Henry took a job at her father's bank as well as working as a substitute teacher. The following year, she... -- to make it easier to calculate just what the following year is, how about After graduation in <year>...?
  • She also organized the construction of a family home by Stanford University in Palo Alto, California, but this was seen as selfish amid her humanitarian work -- is the source more precise about who saw it as selfish, e.g. her friends, her husband, she herself on reflection...?
  • Hoover began her involvement with the Girl Scouts in 1917 -- Girls Scouts is mentioned twice in the preceding paragraph, which seems to involve events of 1921 so might it be better to say Hoover had began her involvement with the Girl Scouts in 1917?
  • After leaving the White House, the Hoovers took their first true vacation in many years, driving through the Western United States -- not vital but does the source happen to mention what their vehicle was?

Nice work. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 21:17, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ian, nudge. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:33, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi guys, sorry for delay in responding, was away a few days and the internet service was somewhat less than anticipated. Happy to support. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:50, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley edit

  • "During the Battle of Tientsin in 1900, Lou worked as a nurse". The article on the battle says that they were living in the foreign settlement there. If that is so, I think you should say so for context.
    • The previous paragraph describes Tientsin as a foreign colony. Should it mention that they're still in such a community during the battle? Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:09, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Her involvement with refugee assistance earned her a position on the American relief committee". A few words explaining this committee would be helpful.
    • The source does not elaborate. I think it's pretty straightforward though, it's a committee that oversaw relief. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:09, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "She also organized the construction of a family home by Stanford University in Palo Alto, California". I am not sure what you mean - that she planned to build a house there as the Hoovers were going to move there?
  • "She found the practice of calling on her fellow cabinet wives to be a waste of time, and her refusal to do so contributed its demise." Demise of what?
  • "she remained active in Republican Party women's groups". You have not mentioned before that she was active unless I have missed it.
  • "Hoover was concerned by the actions of the Roosevelt administration". I think "disapproved of " or something similar would be clearer than "concerned by".
  • "During the Teapot Dome scandal". A few words of explanation would be helpful.
  • " The book had previously been considered lost due to the difficulty of translating its technical language". I do not understand this. It might have been considered untranslatable, but it was not lost.
  • "One of the brick dorms". dorms is slang in BrEng. Maybe "dormitories" or is "dorm" good AmerEng?
  • A very good article and my queries are minor. I do not like her being referred to as Hoover as it equally applies to her husband and I think it would be better to consistently refer to her as Lou. Dudley Miles (talk) 17:15, 30 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]


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