Wikipedia

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Li Rui (politician)/archive1

< Wikipedia:Featured article candidates
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 7 April 2023 [1].

Li Rui (politician) edit

Nominator(s): —Ganesha811 (talk) 17:08, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Li Rui, a Chinese communist politician, historian, and dissident. Li was a CCP member from a young age and remained one until he died, but repeatedly annoyed China's leaders by calling for democracy, civil rights, and free elections. There is not a ton of information available on his personal life or background, but the article is as comprehensive as I could make it. The article underwent a GA nomination last January, conducted by Kavyansh.Singh. Looking forward to going through this process again, and thank you for reviewing this article! —Ganesha811 (talk) 17:08, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review
  • What is "Source Li Nanyang"?
  • For both images, when were they first published?

(t · c) buidhe 18:46, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Reply: Li Nanyang is Li Rui's daughter. She has provided a number of images of him to various media outlets, but most of them are still covered by copyright (there are some in the NYTimes obituary, for example). As to the age, the studio portrait is from 1945, while he was secretary to Chen Yun (although I don't know the specific date), while the cropped, lower-quality photo is from 1944. It appears to have been sourced from the book 李锐口述往事. which can be seen here p.98 (warning, large PDF) along with many other photos, most of which are probably copyrighted. —Ganesha811 (talk) 19:20, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The date of first publication determines the copyright status, not the image's creation. Both images rely on PD-PRC which requires 50 years after publication; the unpublished criterion is unlikely to apply because the US tag requires that the image have been published before 1998. The book you mention seems to be published in 2017 if Worldcat is correct, so an earlier publication would be necessary. (t · c) buidhe 05:09, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I see what you mean. I've removed both images from the article for now while I try and see if there is any free use image available of Li Rui. If that doesn't prove to be possible perhaps one or more could be reuploaded directly to Wiki under fair use criteria #10 (WP:NFCI). —Ganesha811 (talk) 05:21, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I have added a fair use image (File:Li Rui studio portrait, 1947.png) and an image of the Three Gorges dam that is usable under CC-by-SA-3.0 (File:Dreischluchtendamm hauptwall 2006.jpg. —Ganesha811 (talk) 17:47, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi buidhe, can I just check you're good with this image/licensing? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:39, 6 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
yes (see below) (t · c) buidhe 16:29, 6 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Tks buidhe. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 16:54, 6 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • Some of the details in the infobox, such as the start date of his term as Deputy Minister, don't appear to be cited anywhere
  • Fixed: I will track down the appropriate citations and add the details to the article - not done yet, though. This is now addressed.
  • Fn6: is what's being cited here the film itself, or the associated website?
  • Fixed: The website, but since it's a more vague source than Fn5 (Economist obituary), I've removed it and modified the sentence to suit.
  • FN7: date doesn't match source. Ditto FN17, check throughout
  • Fixed: Fixed FN7 and removed FN17 as we only have an archive link and it's adequately cited by another source.
  • Why are page numbers sometimes in the citation itself and sometimes in {{rp}}?
  • Fixed: I believe the templated ones are from the version before I started expanding the article. Removed them.
  • Be consistent in whether locations are included for books
  • Fixed: All books now have locations included, I believe.
  • Formatting needs to be made consistent - some use full state names and others abbreviations. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:57, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fixed these are now consistent.
  • Fn15 is missing publisher
  • Fixed: Added.
  • Don't mix templated and handwritten citations
  • Reply: I believe all citations are now templated.
  • FN18 returns an error
  • Fixed: Removed.
  • Fixed: It may not, I should have removed it when I began improving the article. Removed now.

Thank you for your comments and I will address the infobox citations when I have time. —Ganesha811 (talk) 20:20, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Ganesha and Nikki, can I confirm all resolved here? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:39, 6 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
All good here from my perspective. —Ganesha811 (talk) 10:56, 6 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Minor issue flagged above. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:57, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Addressed! :) —Ganesha811 (talk) 04:05, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator note edit

This has been open for more than three weeks and has yet to pick up a general support. Unless it attracts considerable movement towards a consensus to promote over the next three or four days I am afraid that it will have to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:12, 24 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Question: is there anything I can do to attract more reviewers, or is it just tough luck if no one else wants to take a look? Recruiting reviewers on their talk pages is frowned upon, I assume. —Ganesha811 (talk) 12:31, 24 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not really an issue, you just need to frame the request in a neutral manner, i.e. you're after comments, not support per se. Also try to go for people who you feel will give it a good going-over, say because they're good with prose, or knowledgable of the subject, or a FAC regular, etc. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:27, 24 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the guidance—I have asked some folks and will see if any are willing! —Ganesha811 (talk) 14:14, 24 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Serial edit

Further to the above, I've been asked, and will get this in the next couple of days, if I'm allotted that time by the @WP:FAC coordinators: or the gods, whomsoever shall prove the greater. SN54129 14:34, 24 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well that isn't even a question, surely... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:38, 24 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Heh  :)
  • "and dissident Chinese Communist Party (CCP) member" - I wonder if "Chinese Communist Party (CCP) member, and later dissident" wold be more accurate?
  • Comment: I actually considered that, but I felt that might imply that he left the CCP or was an external critic as opposed to an internal one. After he was permitted to rejoin in the '70s he remained a CCP member until his death.
  • "Mao, impressed by Li" - suggest "Li impressed Mao, who": tighter and less repetitive of Li.
  • Fixed: as recommended.
  • "However, Li's father died" - don't need the however.
  • Fixed: as recommended.
  • You might want to clarify the last sentences with some dates; as it is, it doesn't quite add up. 1934 is the only marker we have; but the 9 Dmr Mvmnt starts in 1935 and the 2nd s-J war two years later, so "then occupyng china" is a bit vague.
  • Adjusted: to hopefully be clearer.
  • Re. his trek, can you give an idea of the distance he faced? It wouldn't be OR.
  • Added: it was approximately 1000 km.
  • [His mum sounds cool!]
  • "became the editor of domestic commentary" - hmmm. Home affairs? Or is that the specific title?
  • Discussion: That's how Xinhua put it in their brief obituary (国内评论编辑), while the 'Economist' mentions him writing editorials (commentary). However it could be a specific Chinese newspapering term that Google is translating poorly, although my best understanding is that "domestic commentary" is a fair translation.
  • The quote from the NYT seems out of place here.
  • Comment: Some concern about this quote's context was previously expressed by another editor, so I'm moving it, but in general, its placement here was part of my preference to avoid "ghettoizing" all content about personality and style to 'Personal life', as I've seen happen in other articles. Frankly Li seems like he was a bit of a pain in the ass and I think these kinds of quotes help communicate that to the reader earlier rather than later.
  • Interesting that in 1944 he was considered a spy but the following year he received an important appointment. Why?
  • Discussion: As to that I have no specific information, except to say that the CCP (from its founding to the present day) is a place where people are constantly rising and falling, coming in and out of favor. Internal ideological and political struggles never stop. We have a pretty good article on the specific Yan'an Rectification Movement which led to his imprisonment, which is linked.
  • "his wife divorced and denounced him" - did she do this willingly or under political pressure?
  • Comment: There is no mention of specific political pressure in the sources used, but obviously the atmosphere in China at the time would have made standing by Li tricky at best and dangerous at worst.
  • "using iodine" - perhaps explain this was a form of, and link to, invisible ink.
  • Added: as recommended.
  • "In 2017 he failed to attend"
  • Modified: as recommended.
  • Your use of MOS:LQ seems slightly random! Consistency is important  :)
  • Checked: and made sure that any punctuation within quotes is from the sources themselves, while punctuation outside quotes is not in the original sources.
  • You're missing ISBNs from Sullivan 2011.
  • Added: to the cite.
Nice article, cheers! Now, over to Dudley Miles... SN54129 12:47, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your comments and suggestions~ —Ganesha811 (talk) 15:09, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Serial, I was wondering if you intended to formally support this nomination? Cheers. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:03, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the reminder; It's nice to do something positive at FAC rather than merely be tediously trolled. I'm happy to support this article for promotion, and if you want to restore the NYT quote at any time, Ganesha811, it wasn't a major issue. Cheers, SN54129 09:35, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley edit

I will have a look once Serial has finished. Dudley Miles (talk) 15:18, 24 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Dudley Miles, any comments or suggestions? —Ganesha811 (talk) 11:26, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is an error message on ref 4
  • Comment: Assuming this is David Pong's Encyclopedia of Modern China, I'm not seeing any error message on any part of it (or when clicking through links), nor on 3 or 5. What is the message?
  • I believe I have now fixed this. Thanks for pointing it out.
  • Comment: Li Rui's father, Li Jifang, was a member of the Republic of China's first National Congress, in the House of Representatives, which met intermittently from 1913 to 1925. However, I cannot find a reliable source to verify this, unless we use Li Rui's own memoir, which I cannot translate except with Google. However, the information is widely available in sources like this, which seem inadequate. Pong states that Li Jifang "was a congressman in Republican China", but that's about as close as we get. It's also on zh.wiki.
  • I would delete unless you can find a reliable source. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:47, 3 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Removed as recommended.
  • "As a student, he helped lead the December 9th Movement against Japan, which was in conflict with China at the time." For clarity, I suggest "As a student, in 1935 he helped lead [[December 9th Movement against Japan|a student protest against the failure of the Chinese government to oppose Japanese aggression]]."
  • Fixed: adopted your suggestion, which is a definite improvement.
  • "he warned that a large dam on the Yangtze would present considerable difficulties". This is vague. Are there no details of the ground of his opposition?
  • Fixed: added additional details from academic source.
  • "Mao hired Li as his personal secretary for industrial affairs". When?
  • Fixed: added.
  • "Li returned to Beijing, where his wife divorced and denounced him (see §Personal life).[3] One of his daughters, Li Nanyang (李南央), became estranged from him after reporting anti-Mao remarks he had made in private." I would move these comments to the personal life section. They are not significant politically.
  • Comment: I agree that they are not politically relevant, but I prefer them in this location because I think it gives a sense of his isolation and the depths of his exile. He had been on a fast rise and then experienced an equally precipitous fall. However, if you think they should be in the 'Personal life' section, I will move them. I'm also happy to eliminate the 'Personal life' section entirely and distribute its contents chronologically throughout the article.
  • I would move it. I think that being sent to a backwoods school conveys his isolation. But it is your call. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:47, 3 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Moved per recommendation.
  • "he was forced to resign from this role after being unwilling to "give special preference to the offspring of senior officials". "because he refused" would be more accurate than "after being unwilling".
  • Fixed: adopted your suggestion.
  • "writing five works on Mao's life and history in the party". "history in the party" sounds odd and I am not sure what it means.
  • Fixed: changed to "and experiences in the CCP".
  • Looking again, "and experiences in the CCP" is ambiguous. Whose experiences? Mao's? Li Rui's? Members generally? Dudley Miles (talk) 18:45, 3 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Adjusted to clarify phrasing.
  • The article seems to rely heavily on newspaper articles, but I assume that is due to the lack of academic reliable sources. Dudley Miles (talk) 13:50, 3 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Agreed - Kusma also had this comment. I have difficulty assessing the reliability of Chinese-language sources, which are also harder to access and (for me) depend on Google Translate, which I do not like to use. In English-language scholarly work, his historical work is frequently used as a primary source on Mao, but his own life has attracted less attention. However he seemed to gain recognition in later years for being the "veteran liberal member", was always happy to grant interviews, and therefore got quite a bit of attention when he died, with a number of newspapers writing obituaries and covering his funeral as news. Thank you for your comments and suggestions thus far! —Ganesha811 (talk) 14:53, 3 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Looks fine, apart from one point mentioned above. Dudley Miles (talk) 18:45, 3 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie edit

Also responding to a request on my talk page.

  • "Li was later described as "blunt, brash, and quick-witted" by the New York Times". This refers to his behaviour in the 1930s; he lived so long that I think it's worth making clear this is from his obituary. If the NYT had made the comment in, say, 1952, the reader would take it as part of an analysis of the communist scene in China.
  • Modified: Changed the sentence to make it clear the description came from his obituary.
  • "In 1945, Li was made the secretary to Gao Gang": can we say who Gao Gang was?
  • Added clause: I've added a clause to explain Gang's role at the time, and his article is linked.
  • Do we know where the "small school in the mountains" was?
  • Answer: I have not found specific reference to its location in any English-language sources, which has always bugged me. The Chinese article just says "the Great Northern Wilderness", which suggests Heilongjiang, but that may be referring to the camp near the Soviet border, not the school.
  • "However, after Mao's death in 1976": I don't think you need the "However"; the contrast is conveyed starkly enough without it. Plus you have another "However" later in the paragraph; I think that one is more justifiable, though I don't think it would hurt to lose it.
  • Fixed: removed the first 'however'.
  • "Li, whose opposition to the Three Gorges Dam had first brought him to prominence": if this is the case it's not clear earlier in the article -- we mention he became deputy head of the Ministry of Water Resources before mentioning his opposition to the dam, for example. Perhaps "prominence" refers to the rise in his profile when Mao hired him?
  • Comment: I did intend to mean Mao's plucking him into his inner circle. I've modified the phrasing to (hopefully) make this clearer.
  • 'wrote in a poem of its modern "arrogance, ignorance, shamelessness, lawlessness."' Do we know when the poem was written? We say "modern" but given his history it could have been written any time from the 1960s on.
  • Comment: The Economist obituary makes clear it was after his readmittal in the 1980s, but gives no further detail. That is the only reference which mentions this specific poem.
  • "The diary, along with Li's other papers, was the subject of a lawsuit in 2019": I think we should say what the suit was about.
  • Expanded: to add some further detail.

I do wonder if there are more sources in Chinese that could be used to expand this, but I'm not going to withhold support on that basis as I can't point to anything -- and perhaps the censorship in China has led to very little material about him being available. Looking on Google Scholar with search terms '"li rui" communist party political dissident' finds some results; anything there that you weren't already aware of? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:19, 24 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: I will look and see if there is anything else that can be added. Thank you for your comments so far! —Ganesha811 (talk) 19:20, 24 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Looks in good shape to me; the changes above are all fine. If you can think of a natural way to include the information from The Economist that the poem dates from no earlier than the 1980s I think that would be helpful. I'll AGF that if you do run across any new sources you'll include anything useful. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:24, 24 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your support! I'll try to juggle the poetry sentence a bit to make it work; as to new sources, I have had some difficulty there before, since Li Rui is so often cited as a source on Mao Zedong, there are many books and articles which reference him, but rarely give anything more than the barest biographical details on him. However, I have found one source (The Three Gorges Dam and China's Energy Dilemma) which gives more detail into that area of his work. There's an interview with him from Dai Qing's book (Yangtze, Yangtze!) available here, but I'm not sure how much encyclopedic information on his life I can extract from that. An entry on Li in David Pong's Encyclopedia of Modern China also contains a few nuggets of new information. As it's a tertiary source, I don't wish to rely on it too heavily, but I will certainly incorporate what's new from these sources into the article when I have some time tomorrow. —Ganesha811 (talk) 21:30, 24 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have now added some information from each of these sources (except the interview) to the article, partially in response to Kusma's comments below. —Ganesha811 (talk) 15:59, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Kusma edit

I'll look in more detail later, just one quick question: is Liberation the same as Jiefang Daily? —Kusma (talk) 07:01, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Fixed: Yes, those are the same. I've reordered the section somewhat for clearer chronology.
  • Generally I'd suggest to add more names in Chinese characters for clarity and disambiguation. For example, the birth name 李厚生 should be somewhere. Characters would also help to identify Liberation/
  • Added: where I can be confident of Chinese names.
  • "His father had been a member of the Tongmenghui .. but died" Why "but"?
  • Fixed: Modified and split the sentence.
  • Do we know when he was jailed by the KMT government? And when he was mistakenly jailed as a spy? (Are you sure these events are chronologically at the right place?)
  • Comment: I am certain they are separate events - the Kuomingtang jailed him for handing out Communist books before 1937, although I don't think any source mentions a specific year or period of incarceration, while he was jailed 1943-44 for satirizing Communists in Yan'an during the rectification purge there.
  • zhwiki says he participated in the December 9th Movement, do you know about that? It would help explain his anti-Japan stance.
  • Added: Added with a tertiary source, which is the only one that specifically mentions the December 9th movement I've found.
  • Three Gorges Dam: could you give some conetxt and explain that it was eventually built, but much later?
  • Added: I've added some detail both in the 1950s part and the 1980s - let me know if you think it's sufficient. Feel free to tweak it yourself if you prefer.
  • Personal life: According to [2], he and Fan Yuanzhen married twice and divorced twice. I just saw that you mention the divorce in a different section; why not here?
  • Comment: Unfortunately I cannot access that source, even through the Wikipedia Library it looks like. Do you have full access? If you quote the relevant passage I can add it.
    Sorry for not responding earlier (travelling and not paying full attention to Wikipedia ATM). If you want, I can send you the PDF if you wikimail me. It is not super interesting though: all we have a footnote "Fan Yuanzhen (1921–2008) joined the CCP in 1937. She studied at Yan’an College of Marxism and Leninism in 1940. She was a researcher in the Central Political Research Office in 1941. She married Li Rui in 1939. In the course of later political ups and downs, they divorced, remarried, and divorced again." on p. 66, attached to her name in the text "In a letter to her husband Li Rui, Fan Yuanzhen wrote: “If the man I love turned against the Party some day, what would I do to overcome my feelings?” When Li was arrested by mistake in the Campaign to Save Delinquents (Qiangjiu shizuzhe yundong) in 1944, she wrote in her diary, “Political struggle is so horrible that no one can be trusted. Problems could arise anytime and anywhere, but I am determined. If the issue with my husband turns out to be for or against the revolution, I can take a firm stand.” Fan placed her loyalty to the Party above her love for her husband."
  • Sourcing seems very reliant on newspapers at first glance.
  • Comment: Li seems to have gotten fairly regular coverage in Hong Kong newspapers over the years, but most of those are Chinese, which I am loath to rely on since I have to use Google Translate. In English-language scholarly work, his historical work is frequently used as a primary source on Mao, but his own life has attracted less attention. However he seemed to gain recognition for being the "veteran liberal member" over the years, was always happy to grant interviews, and therefore got quite a bit of attention when he died, with a number of newspapers writing obituaries and covering his funeral as news.
  • Fu mu zuo ri shu is a 960 page book. Are you citing the letters or some of the editorial material? (There is a nice timeline at the end).
  • Comment: I was citing the timeline, as I recall, but unfortunately I no longer have access to it - a friend of mine who reads Chinese looked it up for me at her university library and translated some relevant parts for me, but she's not a Wikipedia editor and I usually don't bug her with translation requests, she just did me a favor!
  • The timeline is on pp. 887–888. We have (on p. 887) Li goes to Chongqing in order to marry Fan, 1939-11-22 (but I don't know when they get married), they go to Yan'an 1939-12-31. They get divorced in June 1944 and remarry in June 1945. Their oldest son is born in July 1946. On p. 888, they get formally divorced, 1961-11-30. (I can read Chinese when I have to). I will check other dates against the timeline and look for Chinese sources a bit. His biography [3] might be interesting to check out, but perhaps the many Radio Free Asia things cited on zhwiki are enough to fill this a little more. —Kusma (talk) 11:29, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I did find a PDF of one of his memoirs online (warning, large PDF) which I discussed above, but again, I cannot read Chinese and do not like to trust Google's translations, which I know can be woefully inadequate. I will look at the Radio Free Asia sources, however. zhwiki also contains mention (which I have seen elsewhere) of an affair, and gives a source for which we only have an archive link (here). It's from Duowei News, and based on that article and a search at WP:RSN (where nothing useful shows up), I'm not sure how reliable we can regard it as. Do you have thoughts on Duowei News? Perhaps if we got access to Li Nanyang's book (我有这样一个母亲) directly. However even then she's a primary source, not a secondary one. I appreciate your help puzzling this out. —Ganesha811 (talk) 14:25, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    One of the first Ghits for the phrase 我有这样一个母亲 looks like the full text of the book, unfortunately not in a particularly citable form (no idea what edition/whether the pagination is correct). The memoirs are nice; p. 384 certainly confirms the "one son, two daughters" :) On p. 78 we have once more the claim that Li and Fan got married in December 1939. The affair while in Yan'an seems to be admitted also by the other person, Deng Liqun [4], but of course that doesn't mean we have to report it. I would expect the divorce and remarriage in the article, though. —Kusma (talk) 22:03, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I will take a look through the sources again and see if I can find something citable to cover the divorce/remarriage - I agree it should be in the article if we can find a suitable, citable source. —Ganesha811 (talk) 14:23, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I think the timeline in the book we already have is pretty decent. —Kusma (talk) 16:50, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Agreed, if I can't find an English-language source, I'll use that. I prefer English-language sources simply because I don't have to trust that Google is correct or bug my Chinese-reading friend to verify that. —Ganesha811 (talk) 16:55, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I've expanded the article using the timeline in the book as discussed! No English-language sources that I could find with any level of reliability. Thank you for your help with this! —Ganesha811 (talk) 21:09, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Will read and comment more later. Interesting article about a very interesting person, but I am not yet convinced this is as comprehensive as it should be. —Kusma (talk) 11:35, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you for your comments and suggestions thus far! —Ganesha811 (talk) 15:58, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Kusma, any further comments or suggestions? Have my changes addressed your concern about comprehensiveness, or is there more to be done? —Ganesha811 (talk) 11:25, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    My apologies for the long silence. I was travelling and thought I could find the time to have another look, but it hasn't happened yet. Will try to read through again as soon as I can and then let you know what I think. —Kusma (talk) 09:55, 3 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There are still some things that need doing.

  • "another newspaper, Qingqidui (轻骑兵)" 兵 is "bing", not "dui". However, it seems the paper was called Qingqidui ("Light Cavalry"), written 轻骑队 (compare e.g. the interview here; there are also two of Li Rui's books on the Internet Archive and it is mentioned in at least one of them). According to that article, it was an "essay style large wall newspaper", see wall newspaper and also Big-character poster for background. Another person involved was Wang Ruowang.
  • Fixed adjusted Chinese, thank you.
  • "Li became a part of the Ministry of Water Resources" do humans become "parts"?
  • Adjusted to say 'joined'
  • Linked
  • The source doesn't say the iodine was used to make invisible ink; it sounds more like he was writing directly with iodine (which probably fades fairly quickly but isn't itself invisible; in fact, it is usually used to make invisible ink visible)
  • Adjusted - ah, you are correct. This change was suggested elsewhere in the review, but looking at the source again, what you say is right.
  • Switched the link.
  • What does "secretly but officially denounced as subversive" mean?
  • Comment: just that, really. The Economist writes: "Top of the list, he sought constitutional and democratic governance, with the party reframed as a socialist party in the west European style. That thought was so subversive, so unChinese, that in 2013 it was officially, though secretly, condemned."
  • In the list of works, it should be clarified that only the titles have been translated to English and you are citing the Chinese books.
  • Adjusted to make this clearer.
  • Do we know what Deng Xiaoping thought about Li Rui?
  • Comment: I have never found any reference to what Deng thought of Li specifically. A lot of people were rehabilitated after the Two Whatevers were done away with, and Li was one of them.

On the topic of overall comprehensiveness, I think you have more or less what is typically reported about Li Rui. It is reasonably easy to find more in Chinese from Li's own writings, but I haven't been able to find a lot of independent works about him. (Which may be because my Chinese is terrible). Not totally sure what the best thing to do is here. —Kusma (talk) 21:42, 3 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: I think there is an ideal version of this article that does include more detail, but it would have to be put together by a Chinese-speaking scholar who had good access to Chinese sources and excellent judgment about what Chinese sources are reliable and what are not. Since I lack those skills, I've mostly had to rely on English-language sources, which are necessarily less complete. Given that limitation, I feel good about where the article has ended up. However, it's up to you whether you think it's at FA standard, and either way, your comments have certainly helped improve it, so thank you! —Ganesha811 (talk) 12:45, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I think in an ideal world we should use the 1999 Chinese-language biography of Li Rui by Song Xiaomeng 宋晓梦 that I linked to above. In a less ideal world, we need to find whatever we can from other sources, but should try to exhaust what is available in English. One further thing I found: Li Rui was among the people who investigated the Cultural Revolution-era Guangxi Massacre in 1983. See e.g. pp. 201 and 225 of "Civil War in Guangxi", (TWL) (DOI). Maybe worth an extra sentence. —Kusma (talk) 14:34, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Definitely, good find! Looks like a very recent publication from earlier this year. I've added a sentence accordingly. —Ganesha811 (talk) 15:14, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I think I'm running out of things to complain about. I have removed all italics from Chinese characters per MOS:NOITALIC. What are your thoughts about the free image File:Li Rui 2018 VOA.jpg? —Kusma (talk) 21:03, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think it would add much to the article - nothing about his appearance in old age was exceptional, and I'd worry about adding an image of someone in hospital just because it's there, when it's not really relevant to their life (he was not known for being a medical patient). If people want to find out what he looked like as an old man, they can always Google him, there are plenty of available copyrighted images. —Ganesha811 (talk) 01:28, 5 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The question is what the existence of an undisputed free image means for your non-free use rationale for the main image. —Kusma (talk) 09:32, 5 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Hmm, you're right, that is problematic. Perhaps the best course is for the article to be unillustrated, though that would be a shame. Even if the only available option is the 2018 image, I still don't think it's worth adding to the article. There does appear to be File:李锐高中毕业照.jpg, which I missed before. It's used on the zh.wiki article but I'm not convinced it's actually public domain. Even if it was taken in 1934, it was probably not published until 李锐口述往事 was published, so 2013 (since that's listed as the source). —Ganesha811 (talk) 15:52, 5 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Indeed, I don't see proof that any of the "PD" files used on zhwiki (other than the VOA ones) actually are PD. —Kusma (talk) 09:10, 6 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    You know, I've been digging into fair use a little more. WP:NFCI #10, and some other material on fair use images, requires that no "free close substitute" can be found, and it also matters in law whether a possible substitute is of reasonable quality. In my judgment, a low-quality screenshot from a VOA video of Li Rui sick in a hospital in 2018 is not a close substitute for a 1947 studio portrait of him as a young man, nor is it of reasonable quality as an adequate replacement. For now, my instinct is to leave the 1947 image in the article, as I believe it is genuine fair use. However, if this is a dealbreaker, I'm willing to remove it. —Ganesha811 (talk) 11:13, 6 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I can see both sides and am happy to defer to @Buidhe's judgment on this. —Kusma (talk) 12:32, 6 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Personally I would tend to agree that the 2018 image is not a close substitute for the earlier portrait. It's possible that a suitable free image might exist, however, NFCC does not require endless searching. If a suitable free image is ever located it can just be swapped in for the other image. (t · c) buidhe 16:28, 6 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think I'm done with the text. Support on content, somewhat weakly since further Chinese sources could give us a lot more information. —Kusma (talk) 09:10, 6 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Li_Rui_(politician)/archive1&oldid=1148735704"