Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Knowle West, Bristol/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ucucha 15:21, 6 November 2011 [1].

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Knowle West, Bristol

Knowle West, Bristol (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Featured article candidates/Knowle West, Bristol/archive1

Nominator(s): Jezhotwells (talk) 00:52, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because having worked to bring this GA, and taking note of subsequent comments in a peer review, I feel this article meets the criteria. I hope that this will be the first of a series of FAs on districts of my hometown, Bristol. Jezhotwells (talk) 00:52, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:49, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

• Check notation of page ranges - should use "pp." and endashes. Also be consistent in whether there is a space between p./pp. and the number
• Don't italicize publishers
• FN 11: page(s)? Make sure multi-page sources all include page numbers
• FN 16: check italicization
• Northcliffe Media or Northcliffe Media Limited? Check for consistency
• What makes http://www.findachurch.co.uk a high-quality reliable source? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:49, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Nikki. I have replaced findachurch.co.uk with a primary source, the church's own website. I believe that I have fixed the other formatting issues, please shout if there is anything else. Jezhotwells (talk) 23:39, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Okay, looks good. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:12, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. Jezhotwells (talk) 22:49, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Copyedit review (comments by Jaguar)

I reviewed the GAN a few months ago and the article has certainly improved by then. I focus on copyediting issues, so I'll see what is right and wrong. I'll add some more comments tomorrow.

• Would the article actually be better off being renamed Knowle West? There is a redirect page that links to the article so would this name be better off?

Interesting point, I see the redirect was created in 2005. Would it mess up the FAC process if renamed now? Jezhotwells (talk) 23:47, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Ah. It might actually mess up the whole FAC and Peer review archives (and links), so it wouldn't hurt if it was renamed after the review. Jaguar (talk) 15:01, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

• The lead complies per WP:LEAD. It is very easy to read, it starts with locations and then statistics.
• In the last sentence in the lead it says "Knowle West has relatively high indices of crime and drug use." We have talked about this on the talk page so would it be better if the crime and drugs would be mentioned more in the article and lead?

I am not sure what else could be said without resorting to OR. The stats for Clifton, Bristol, a fairly affluent area, are very similar to those for Knowle West. The crimes and drugs may be different but without OR, it is hard to say anything much. Jezhotwells (talk) 23:47, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Could the stats from Clifton be included as a suitable reference for Knowle West? I understand that OR is very risky for something like this. Jaguar (talk) 15:06, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Looking at this further, the stats for Clifton[2] cover a slightly larger area with a higher population and report double the amount of crime, roughly proportionate to a larger population, but the area shown also includes some of the city centre. However any conclusions would definitely constitute OR in my opinion. There are many blogs and forums with claims of high crime in Knowle West but not any RS that I can find. I have added some other media reports to expand on this a little. Jezhotwells (talk) 20:27, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

• "In 1086 the area that is now Knowle West was assessed by the Domesday survey as part of Knowle in the hundred of Hartcliffe." - was it called 'Knowle' in the Domesday Book? Also, modern hundreds weren't around in 1086, they stopped in the 1800s so this may cause some confusion.

Yes, it was called Knowle then.[3]. I have added a cite. The term hundred is fairly well known and it is wikilinked. Do you think that needs more? Jezhotwells (talk) 23:54, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Nope that looks fine as it is, hundreds are very well known and the cite is notable enough. Jaguar (talk) 15:06, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

• The location section is looking a bit empty. What about the geography? What is Knowle West's geology and elevation? What is Knowle West's underlying bedrock? A little bit could be mentioned in this section (or any other sections)? But it is no big concern.

Good point, I will check out the library over the weekend. Jezhotwells (talk) 00:27, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

I have added some basic geology. Jezhotwells (talk) 20:24, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

If it helps I have added a climate section which is roughly based on Bristol's climate. Jaguar (talk) 20:29, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Does the article really need a climate section? I can understand in the case of a city, but does an area of a city really have its own climate? The sources given are for the weather in South West England; not specific to Bristol, never mind Knowle West. Sorry to do this when you've put in the work, Jaguar, but I don't think the climate section belongs in the article. MartinPoulter (talk) 11:44, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Good point, I have removed the climate section. Jaguar (talk) 16:33, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I don't think it is needed. Jezhotwells (talk) 22:49, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

• "The rapper/musician Tricky, member of the The Wild Bunch sound system and contributor to Massive Attack's first two albums, grew up here and was educated at Merrywood School." - in Knowle West presumably? How about The rapper and musician Tricky was member of the The Wild Bunch sound system and contributor to Massive Attack's first two albums. Tricky grew up in Knowle West and was educated at Merrywood School.

Done, thanks. Jezhotwells (talk) 00:27, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

A rapper is actually also a musician.--♫GoP♫_T^C_N 11:20, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Simplified to "musician". Jezhotwells (talk) 20:24, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

• "There are four schools in Knowle West; Connaught Road Primary School, Greenfield Primary School, School Of Christ The King and Knowle DGE Special School" - are any of these schools secondary or are they all primary?

Yes, I have clarified. Jezhotwells (talk) 00:27, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

• "Proposals by Bristol City Council, in 2009, for development have been opposed by residents" - bad sentence. How about Proposals were made in 2009 by Bristol City Council for development that were opposed by residents

Reworded. Jezhotwells (talk) 00:27, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Other than those few points the article is in great condition and is close to getting its FA status. If there are any more copyediting that needs to be done, I will have another look. Regards Jaguar (talk) 21:23, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the review. Jezhotwells (talk) 21:02, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Support: With all the copyediting out of the way, my part of the review is finally done. Since the GA had passed this easily, I would expect the FA to as well. I wish it very best of luck doing that! Jaguar (talk) 14:48, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. Jezhotwells (talk) 23:13, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Copyscape check - No issues were revealed by Copyscape searches. Graham Colm (talk) 18:12, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for reviewing, Graham. Jezhotwells (talk) 22:38, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Comments by Rodw. I participated in the earlier peer review of this article and all the issues raised there have been addressed. I think the article is well written and comprehensive but have a few outstanding comments and questions:

• In History should Kingswood be wikilinked to Kingswood, South Gloucestershire (although as this talking about the royal estate which isn't mentioned in that article it might not be appropriate)?

Mmmm, good point. I will look at introducing something about the Royal Forest into that article. Jezhotwells (talk) 22:24, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

And I have done so and wikilinked. Jezhotwells (talk) 23:41, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

• Should the abbreviation in "Knowle DGE" be written out in full? (In both History and Education sections)

I have explained and cited this in the History section. Jezhotwells (talk) 22:36, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

• The sentence "Local residents were opposed to this" seems abrupt and could perhaps be expanded.

Addressed by copy-edit. Jezhotwells (talk) 22:45, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

• The chronology of the last part of the history section seems strange with 2008 coming after 2009, 2010 & 2011.

Moved this sentence up. Jezhotwells (talk) 22:45, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

• In Location could the one sentence paragraphs be combined?

These were introduced by User:Andy Dingley after I asked for comments. I am inclined to agree with you, but will see what others think. Jezhotwells (talk) 22:45, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I split them because there seemed to be three distinct topics in that section: geography, geology & politics. Personally I favour coherence over an avoidance of short paras, but I wouldn't argue if anyone wanted to re-merge them. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:22, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

These have consolidated by another editor. Jezhotwells (talk) 15:34, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

• We are told "The Bedminster Great coal seam lies below the area" - was this ever mined?

Added quote from the report which says "It is unlikely to have been worked beneath the site" Jezhotwells (talk) 22:53, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

AFAIK (as a local, but not sourceable) the seam definitely goes under the KW outcrop, because the stratigraphy indicates this. However that's no indication that it would be worthwhile to mine in this location, or that it was ever tried. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:22, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

• Would it be possible to combine the sections on Community activities and Community centres and youth clubs? (I noticed this because the picture of The Mede is in one section & the text in another).

Done. Jezhotwells (talk) 23:41, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

• In Transport is the proposed southern extension of the A4174 road worth a mention as this would also affect journey times?

Added a cited sentence about this. Jezhotwells (talk) 23:13, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

• In Deprivation I am unsure about the sentence "This had a seriously negative effect on the area" although this is explained in subsequent text.

Expanded to explain. Jezhotwells (talk) 23:41, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

• In Environment within "bird species per garden is 2" shouldn't small numbers under 10 be written out?

Done. Jezhotwells (talk) 23:41, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

• Would dates of publication be useful for the maps mentioned in Notes 1 & 2?

Done. Jezhotwells (talk) 23:41, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I hope these comments are helpful.— Rod ^talk 21:32, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you Rod, very useful points, which I hope I have addressed. Jezhotwells (talk) 23:41, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

• re the images. They're a reasonable selection of subjects (it's not a great area architecturally), however they're all very close-cropped. One of the better aspects of Knowle West is the town planning (rather than the individual architecture) and the broad, generous streets - at least the main ones. Can we swap the close-up housing view for a broader view? This would be just as good at showing the style of the houses, but it would also show the spacious nature of Knowle West at its best. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:22, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I understand your point - have you a specific idea, because I could take a picture within the next few days. Jezhotwells (talk) 23:45, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

The obvious one would be Broadwalk itself, probably with the same houses (the older ones, I think) and the original trees remaining [4] Andy Dingley (talk) 23:59, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Ah - but Broadwalk isn't in Knowle West! It's in Knowle. I will try Daventry Road on Saturday. Jezhotwells (talk) 00:13, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Roundabout at Daventry Road, Lower Knowle is a possibility. Also, when the images are finalised, I'd suggest they be staggered per MOS:IMAGES. -- Trevj (talk) 05:10, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Are there possibly any free areal shots you can find of Knowle West? Jaguar (talk) 19:33, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

There are lots, but none freely licensed. Jezhotwells (talk) 20:13, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

I have staggered the images, as per Trevj and added a view of Daventry Road from Melvin Square. Jezhotwells (talk) 22:49, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Comments: This is looking pretty good and seems comprehensive, although I'm not too familiar with articles on towns and cities so may have missed something obvious. The only problem I noticed was a tendency to have quotes unattributed in the text. --Sarastro1 (talk) 14:59, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

• "There is evidence of late Iron Age and Roman settlements": What about "There is evidence of settlements in the Knowle West area since late Iron Age and Roman times."

Rewritten. Jezhotwells (talk) 15:34, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

• "2 geld" (in the lead and history sections): (should it be "two" instead of "2") I'm fairly sure that geld roughly translates as "value" and was certainly not a unit of currency as mentioned here. I notice that the source says "2 geld units" rather than "2 geld". My memory of Domesday is a little hazy, but I think this equated to a fixed value.

Rewritten. Jezhotwells (talk) 15:34, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

• The first two paragraphs of history contain many sentences which begin "the".

Rewritten. Jezhotwells (talk) 15:34, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

• While I appreciate it is possible that material does not exist, it is a little disconcerting to jump in the history section from 1086 to 1920 with nothing in between. Is there anything in any of the 19th century gazetteers or other publications?

Re-ordered and clarified. Jezhotwells (talk) 15:34, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

• "an abundance of fresh air and daylight.": Needs in-text attribution. Also ""Common features were grouped houses arranged around a cul-de sac street layout thus the street layout broke away from the conventional street grid pattern", but this style of development is now considered to be a failure, due to the lack of "a safe and well-overlooked environment.""

All now cited. Jezhotwells (talk) 15:34, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

• I'm not too sure about the short paragraphs in Location: could they be combined somehow?

Addressed, see RodW comments. Jezhotwells (talk) 15:34, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

• "but "It is unlikely to have been worked beneath the site"": I'm not too sure what this means and again it needs attributing in-text.

Explained, rewritten. Jezhotwells (talk) 15:34, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

• When did "Tricky" live in the area?

Rewritten. Jezhotwells (talk) 15:34, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

• Health: As dentists and hospitals are mentioned, are there any doctors in the area?

Done. Jezhotwells (talk) 15:34, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

• "03 Windmill Hill + Totterdown – Broadmead; 510 Bedminster Down – Hotwells; 511 Hengrove – Bedminster; and 559 Knowle – Brislington.": While this is an accurate rendering of the source, it may be better to convert it into full prose as it looks more like an extract from a bus timetable at the moment.

Done. Jezhotwells (talk) 15:34, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

• "Journey times from Knowle West to the city centre have been identified as hampering employment opportunities for residents": In which case, it may be worthwhile giving some indication of the time it would take.

Done. Jezhotwells (talk) 15:34, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

• "There are a number of small community enterprises in the area, but most employment is found elsewhere in Bristol." Does this have a ref?

Rewritten and cited. Jezhotwells (talk) 15:34, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

• Ref 57 does not give the figures, which its place in the sentence would suggest it should. Maybe move this ref to the end of the sentence or include it as a note defining economic inactivity?

Converted into a note. Jezhotwells (talk) 15:34, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

• Ref 73 is dead.
• Cursory spot-checks reveal no problems except the minor ones noted above. --Sarastro1 (talk) 14:59, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Ref 73, "Northern Slopes Knowle West residents fight", is working for me. MartinPoulter (talk) 11:46, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

And for me now, so struck. --Sarastro1 (talk) 13:38, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the review. I think all points have been addressed. Jezhotwells (talk) 15:34, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Support: I am happy to support this article on prose and comprehensiveness with the qualification that I am not an expert on Bristol, cities or Geography. However, everything makes sense and seems comprehensive. --Sarastro1 (talk) 17:12, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Spot checks: In case it is not clear from above, I completed some spot checks and found no problems. --Sarastro1 (talk) 17:14, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

THanks for the review. Jezhotwells (talk) 21:01, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

• Support, one (non-actionable) comment I read through this some time ago. After the copyedit above I couldn't see any real problems. I can't say that I like having web addresses like travelplus.org.uk (and many others) as the "work" parameter of the template, but afaik it's not an MoS breach. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 12:21, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the support. I like to make it clear that it is a website rather than a newspaper, e.g. the website "thisisbristol.co.uk" as opposed to the print edition "Bristol Evening Post. Jezhotwells (talk) 21:01, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

• Image review No problems, mostly self-made, all have appropriate licences and captions Jimfbleak - talk to me? 12:21, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the review. Jezhotwells (talk) 21:01, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I definitely support the nomination of this excellent article - it is well crafted and sums up an important area of Bristol nicely — Preceding unsigned comment added by Steve Virgin (talk • contribs) 00:51, 30 October 2011‎}

• Support Comments taking a look now - will jot queries below..Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:55, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Just under a third of the residents are classed as economically inactive.. - err, what? I have not heard this expression before but guess it means "unemployed" or something?

Note 3 which is linked right after this sentence gives the precise definition from the ONS. Does the link not work for you? I have added a subordinate clause to clarify. Jezhotwells (talk) 10:23, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

(facepalm) ignore that, my eyes glazed over and missed it. This is a break from income tax which is doing my head in....Casliber (talk · contribs) 15:36, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Any reason why Knowle isn't linked in the first instance in the History section? Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:57, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Oversight, I think. I have linked it now. Jezhotwells (talk) 10:23, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

A progress report - prose is looking good (i.e. I think it's on target) as I'm only finding minor bits. I'd do more now but am knackered and need to catch some zeds - will pick up again tomorrow. Casliber (talk · contribs) 15:43, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your care and attention. Jezhotwells (talk) 20:57, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Why is "a natural barrier" in quotes? Seems a pretty straightforward adjective and noun...?

Originally part of a much longer quote - now removed, so I have removed the quotes. Jezhotwells (talk) 13:52, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

"This severely limits access to employment for the 40% of households without a car." - should be reworded and dequoted. Not a memorable phrase and alternatives exist.

I have reworded. Jezhotwells (talk) 23:55, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

As a bit of a greenie this is a subject close to my heart - maybe a few more words about the greenspace bits (the Northern Slopes, including Novers Common, Glyn Vale/Kingswear and Wedmore Vale) - even just a sentence or two reporting some basic character?

I have added and cited some detail on the typres of environment. Jezhotwells (talk) 23:55, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Otherwise happy on comprehensiveness and prose Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:55, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. Jezhotwells (talk) 23:55, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

• As my comments above show, I had a look at the article a week ago. I didn't support straight away because of minor concerns which had been well voiced by Sarastro1, and I wanted the "climate" section removed, which Jaguar has gracefully agreed to. The images need alt tags for the article to be FA, but apart from that I'm now satisfied that the concerns have been answered and the article is exemplary. Support, conditional on the alt tag issue being fixed. MartinPoulter (talk) 16:59, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

My understanding is that alt text was removed from WP:FACR in this edit following extensive discussions at WT:FAC Jezhotwells (talk) 17:30, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the update. I was unaware of this debate, or that alt text was no longer a formal FAC requirement. In this article, the image captions are informative descriptions which match what I would say about the images if I were describing them succinctly over the phone, so additional alt text would add nothing. With that consideration gone, I now unconditionally Support. Jez nominated a well-researched and well-written article and, in response to this FAC process, has been improved it even further. MartinPoulter (talk) 13:55, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you Martin, Jezhotwells (talk) 23:55, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.