Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/King Island Emu/archive1
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:01, 13 April 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]
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King Island Emu edit
King Island Emu (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
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I am nominating this for featured article because it collects practically all known information about this extinct bird (including recent genetic work), and it is doubtful that much more will ever be known about it. The article has been copy edited, and all important historical PD images have been added. FunkMonk (talk) 03:48, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support Comments from Squeamish Ossifrage
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I have some prose and referencing concerns at the moment, and will try to do a closer reading later for additional prose issues. I'm not strictly opposing at this time, but I think this article has the potential for some improvement still. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 15:40, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"Probably" reword one of the last two sentences of the lead.
I'm unsure on the capitalization of emu here when it's not referring specifically to the King Island Emu. It's my understanding that bird species names get capitals, and the Emu is a specific species, but the Emu (the mainland species) is also a type of emu (the category of birds). Regardless, it looks weird the way it currently is.
- I thought the same early on, so I guess so too, and I'll fix that now. I've left "mainland Emu" capitalised, since "Emu" is the common name of that taxon, but if anyone objects, I can change it. FunkMonk (talk) 20:56, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm going to leave any further discussion about the emu/Emu debate to someone more familiar with the MOS issues at hand.
- I thought the same early on, so I guess so too, and I'll fix that now. I've left "mainland Emu" capitalised, since "Emu" is the common name of that taxon, but if anyone objects, I can change it. FunkMonk (talk) 20:56, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Update the ISBN-10s to ISBN-13s.
Some of your references have a closing period, but some are missing it.
- Fixed. Why does the "citation" and "cite journal" templates differ in this? FunkMonk (talk) 21:11, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- As I understand, those were from different generations of reference templates. It's all ancestral wisdom to me, really. I just hunt for misplaced dots! Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 22:30, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Hmmm, seems like the "citation" template should be updated then, that's the only one that causes the problem. FunkMonk (talk) 22:44, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Unlikely to happen, as some articles use the citation template instead of the cite foo family, and in general any internally consistent referencing style is copacetic.
- Hmmm, seems like the "citation" template should be updated then, that's the only one that causes the problem. FunkMonk (talk) 22:44, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- As I understand, those were from different generations of reference templates. It's all ancestral wisdom to me, really. I just hunt for misplaced dots! Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 22:30, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed. Why does the "citation" and "cite journal" templates differ in this? FunkMonk (talk) 21:11, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The Mathews 1921 source is fully available online, and you should link to the page.
I'm not sure how useful they'll all be (and I have more limited source access than normal at the moment), but there are quite a few more sources to consider for this topic, especially ones from the Australian ornithology journal Emu:
Ashby E (1924). "Notes on Extinct or Rare Australian Birds, with Suggestions as to Some of the Causes of their Disappearance". Emu 23 (3): 178-183. doi:10.1071/MU923178
Brasil L (1914). "The Emu of King Island". Emu 14 (2): 88-97. doi:10.1071/MU914088
Legge WV (1907). "The Emus of Tasmania and King Island". Emu 6 (3): 116-119. doi:10.1071/MU906116
- Added cite, but it doesn't bring any new info, just another junior synonym. FunkMonk (talk) 21:49, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Color me weird, but I love documenting short shelf-life junior synonyms. I think it gives a sense of history to the science of taxonomy that other reference works rarely, if ever, have the space to consider.
- I like it too myself, which has lead to taxonomy sections being the bulk of some articles I've written in the past. In this case it is of minor importance, because it wasn't really a taxonomic response, it was just a matter of which publication came first. I read earlier today that Legge retracted the name when he learned one had already been published, but I don't remember where... And in any case, the name would be invalid, as it was the youngest at the time. FunkMonk (talk) 01:59, 15 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Color me weird, but I love documenting short shelf-life junior synonyms. I think it gives a sense of history to the science of taxonomy that other reference works rarely, if ever, have the space to consider.
- Added cite, but it doesn't bring any new info, just another junior synonym. FunkMonk (talk) 21:49, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Morgan AM, Sutton J (1928). "A critical description of some recently discovered bones of the extinct Kangaroo Island Emu (Dromaius diemenianus)". Emu 28 (1): 1-19. doi:10.1071/MU928001
Roots, C (2006). Flightless Birds. Greenwood. p.172. ISBN 978-0313335457.
- I've encountered this book before, it just summarises already cited material, and in some cases it is even wrong. His entries for some species have several errors. FunkMonk (talk) 21:27, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Got to take a look at this myself. Agreed, exclude this one. WorldCat, you failed me here.
- I've encountered this book before, it just summarises already cited material, and in some cases it is even wrong. His entries for some species have several errors. FunkMonk (talk) 21:27, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and this column from The Examiner from 1906.
Thanks for the comments, I'll fix the issues in a moment. As for sources, the older ones are mostly covered by newer sources, but I'll give them an extra look. FunkMonk (talk) 19:50, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- All issues should now be addressed, but I of course don't know whether it is satisfactory or not. FunkMonk (talk) 23:54, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- No further referencing objections. I need to take another pass through the prose when I have the time, but I always like to hit the bottom of the article first because if the references fall apart under pressure, then it doesn't matter if the text sounds pretty. Good so far, though! Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 01:52, 15 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Support
Commentsfrom Jim Comprehensive and generally pretty good, but several minor issues Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:49, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- extinct sub-species of emu — this invites confusion with the capitalised Emu in line 4, especially as it's referring to that species, better as of the Emu
- The King Island Emu was the smallest of all emu taxa — "taxa" is a bit unfriendly in the lead, especially since it's not linked, smallest of all emus may be better
- The bird gathered in flocks to forage and during breeding time, and fed on berries, grass and seaweed. They ran swiftly
- kept in Jardin des Plantes — the Jardin?
- King Island likely drove the wild population — "likely" looks American to me, please assure me that it's standard Ozspeak
- I'm not sure I follow. You mean the word likely? It should be pretty old English. FunkMonk (talk) 16:52, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, that construction, using "likely" where a Brit would use "probably" strikes me as AE, but I don't know if it's also Australian usage. Either way, it's no big deal Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:02, 17 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not sure I follow. You mean the word likely? It should be pretty old English. FunkMonk (talk) 16:52, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- which has led to some confusion — further confusion?
- Jouanin and Jean-Christophe Balouet demonstrated that the mounted skin in Paris came from King Island — How?
- nuclear and mitochondrial DNA — links needed
- alternate genetic or non-genetic, gene/genetic — I think you mean "alternative", also need to link gene or genetic
- links or explanations needed for intertrochlear foramen, distal foramen, cranium
- Added some links, but the second term is not likely to ever get an article, since it is relative to the structure in question (a structure which is found in many bones). Like if we said "distal end of the metacarpus", there wouldn't be anything specific to make an article about, apart from metacarpus itself.
FunkMonk (talk) 16:45, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Fair enough, I'm happy if you want to lose the redlink since, as you say, the article is unlikely to ever be written Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:02, 17 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- ...foraging, which was exploited by hunters — ...foraging, behaviour which...?
- Either parent stayed by the nest when the other was incubating — The non-incubating parent stayed by the nest?
- which also brought along naturalists, who described the local wildlife — why the comma?
- Some of your references appear to be in French, but there is no "language = " parameter to tell us that
- Binomials should be italicised even in the references
Thanks for the comments, I've fixed some issues, and will fix the rest later today. FunkMonk (talk) 08:05, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I've replied to a couple of your comments above, but there is nothing significant outstanding, so I've changed to support above Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:02, 17 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Nice work,
but what if anything is the difference between a sufossil and a subfossil?ϢereSpielChequers 16:11, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Whoops, the difference is that the former is a typo, good catch! FunkMonk (talk) 16:16, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- You're welcome.
"scientific names subsequently being erected for either bird," is an odd use of erected, if that is Biologists jargon, is there an alternative word such as allocated that would be acceptable to scientists and more obvious to lay readers?ϢereSpielChequers 18:38, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- You're welcome.
- Whoops, the difference is that the former is a typo, good catch! FunkMonk (talk) 16:16, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Image review
- File:Dromaius_peroni.jpg needs US PD tag, as do all other files (and there are several) that have only the life+70 tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:29, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I may not be able to respond to suggestions from Friday until Monday. FunkMonk (talk) 14:08, 27 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support Comments from Sasata
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Prose and MoS nitpicks for now; I may have more substantive comments on content after I try a lit check.
- I'm satisfied that the article meets the FAC criteria. Sasata (talk) 15:50, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sasata (talk) 07:08, 2 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- any reason why sub-species is hyphenated? Our article does not do so, and it is inconsistent with the non-hyphenated version in the taxobox.
- possibly useful links: plumage, incubation, sealer, taxonomically
- "The birds gathered in flocks to forage and during breeding time, and fed on berries" weak construction (and ...and)
- "and in 1804 several live as well as stuffed King and Kangaroo Island Emus" "as well as" -> "and"?
- I don't understand why bad weather would have prevented emu encounters
- no first name for L. Brasil?
- link Broderip, Blyth, Rothschild, Sutton in the taxobox
- our article does not hyphenate eggshell
- should ensure short-form binomials have a non-breaking space (also in the range map caption in the taxobox)
- link subfossil, invalid, taxon, morphology; subfossil is inconsistently hyphenated in the article (shouldn't be, according to our article)
- "…was reclassified as a subspecies of Dromaius novaehollandiae; D. n. ater." think a comma works better here
- "features which distinguish the taxa." which->that (check throughout article for other instances; "which" generally follows a comma)
- "During the Late Quaternary period" consider adding the dates for this period parenthetically so the reader doesn't have to click out
- "approximately 100 km" give imperial conversion? (to be consistent with rest of article)
- link land bridge, founding, tibia, femur, pelvis; link tarsometatarsus and foramen earlier
- "Fossil emu taxa show an average size, between that" comma not necessary?
- should the cranial comparison image perhaps indicate that the mainland bird is represented by A,B, and C?
- "a feature which is
in factalso seen"
- "Péron's interview sheds light" not sure if idiomatic expressions are appropriate for encyclopaedic writing
- "They swam well, but only when necessary." so when it wasn't necessary, they swam poorly?
- "1800–1804" ->1800–04 per WP:YEAR
- "Some of these survive in European museums today." this could perhaps be interpreted as meaning there are specimens alive today; reword?
- Reference nitpicks:
- Brasil 1914 should give the full page range
- is this a suitable link for Viellet 1817?
- please check the citation for Spencer & Kershaw 1906; this journal is available online at archive.org, but I cannot seem to find the article cited (should have a full page range too)
- full page range for Legge 1906 & Morgan and Sutton 1928 (needs issue# too)
- Mathews & Ireland should be title case to be consistent with the other book sources
- Jouanin 1959 has different author format
- no volume# for Balouet & Jouanin 1990? (check author name format too)
- Bull. B.O.C. -> why is this journal title abbreviated?
- Heupink et al. (2011) should be sentence case
- Patterson & Rich (1987) available online here
- Milne-Edwards & Oustalet (1899) available here
- Giglioli 1900 & 1901 should be sentence case
All issues should be addressed now. FunkMonk (talk) 12:21, 2 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I didn't find anything worthwhile to add from a lit search. I do have a copy of Hume & Walters 2012 Extinct Birds, and thought it might be useful to do a spot-check:
- according to the cited source, the heaviest birds weighed 45 to 50 pounds, not 40–51 as given in the article
- close paraphrasing:
- Source: "It was constructed on the ground of sticks, and lined with dead leaves and moss; it was oval in shape and not very deep."
- Article: "It was constructed of sticks and lined with dead leaves and moss; it was oval in shape and not very deep."
- Source: "The chicks were striped and left the nest two to three days after hatching."
- Article: "… and the chicks left the nest two to three days after hatching."
- The part that is closely paraphrased was itself quoted directly from a public domain text from the 19th century (Milne-Edwards & Oustalet 1879, which was itself taken from Péron's even older account), and wasn't actually written by Hume and Walters, so I only modified it slightly. But if it is a problem, I can change it further. FunkMonk (talk) 14:21, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- why not mention that subfossil remain are in Adelaide?
- Other than the above, everything else checks out ok from this source. Sasata (talk) 06:37, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Review by DrKiernan edit
- Claiming the birds couldn't run because they were too fat sounds very 19th-century. Surely they were slower because they had shorter legs or had no natural predators?
- Can we know that their eggs were always laid on 25 and 26 July?
- Not really, but we don't have other testimony of their behaviour than that of Cooper the sealer. FunkMonk (talk) 22:47, 2 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Personally, I would qualify these two paragraphs and put the paragraph on Flinders and Latham either first or last in the section, so that the sealer's testimony is all together. I would also change "documents" and "shows" to something less definite because anecdotal claims from a layperson are not as strong as direct evidence analysed by an expert. So, what I would have is something like:
- "Péron's interview describes some aspects of the behaviour of the King Island Emu. He writes that..." (rest of paragraph could remain the same) and
- "He claimed that seven to nine eggs were laid always on 25 and 26 July, but the selective ... (rest of sentence the same)" and "Peron gave the incubation period as five or six weeks..." in the final sentence to avoid repetition of "claimed". DrKiernan (talk) 18:17, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree with the attribution thing, which I'll implement as you describe it, but not on the order. All the sources mainly quote Péron (and Cooper), and it is not even sure what Latham was referring to. Flinders and his men didn't even observe live emus, whereas Cooper basically lived with them every day. But I've now grouped Péron's stuff in order, just as the first, not last, paragraphs. FunkMonk (talk) 18:39, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Not really, but we don't have other testimony of their behaviour than that of Cooper the sealer. FunkMonk (talk) 22:47, 2 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Delegate comments edit
- I tweaked the lead a tad, let me know if any issues; suggest however that you clarify who "had arrived on King Island in 1802", Peron or the sealer.
- Aside from that, unless Sasata has anything to add, I think this is about ready to close. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:33, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 08:25, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.