Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Killdeer/archive2
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Laser brain via FACBot (talk) 15:02, 16 December 2018 [1].
Killdeer edit
This article is about a (primarily) North American shorebird. It is found both inland and on the coast. I became interested in it after I saw a few at school last spring. Recently, I tried to bring it to FA status, but failed. I have improved the article and gotten a GA review, so I hope it is better now. RileyBugz私に叫ぼう私の編集 21:01, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
From FunkMonk edit
- Seems many issues were fixed by the GA review, so definitely the way to go before FAC. I'll review this soon. FunkMonk (talk) 21:19, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- I wonder if this is a clearer, or at least more dramatic, photo of the injury faking:[2]
- I think it's always good to show how a bird looks in flight (can aid birders, for example), how about one of these?[3][4] Perhaps under habitat?
- Added the first one, as it more clearly shows the underparts and underside of the wing. RileyBugz私に叫ぼう私の編集 23:54, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
- You made a point of adding location to image captions at the GAN, why not in the taxobox caption?
- "This binomial has not been changed" I don't think this needs to be its own sentence, it could be better tacked onto the former sentence as ", a name which has not changed since" or some such.
- "an account of it" Give year.
- Introduce people mentioned.
- "in the fourth-century Vulgate" Add "bible".
- "The specific vociferus" Spell out specific name.
- "C. v. peruvianus (Chapman, 1920)" If the parenthesis is because it was originally described as a separate species, this should be mentioned.
- "The killdeer's name" Common name.
- Seems some of those external links are redundant. If the article contains all the same info, we don't need extra links.
- No word on most closely related species and evolution?
- The description is a bit of a wall of text. Perhaps split it at "The female's mask"?
- "and very locally south to Panama" What does this mean?
- "and those with cattle"? Why?
- "Behaviour" This section is usually called behaviour and ecology in bird FAs, with predators as a subsection.
- I don't think that's correct, most bird FAs actually have just "Behaviour" Jimfbleak - talk to me? 09:37, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
- "although another estimate... gives about two million" Why "although>", it doesn't contradict that the population is large, but confirms it.
- " While egg-laying" This is ambiguous. Do you mean brooding, or laying eggs?
- Not specified; I'm pretty sure it means the period of egg-laying itself; changed "while" to "during"
- "until a normal response is calling at a stand" What does this mean?
- "and charges at the intruder." With the rump first?
- "Ground chases occur when a killdeer has been approached multiple times by another killdeer; similarly, flight chases occur when an individual has been approached from the air. Both are forms of territorial defense" Is any of this related to breeding, though?
- "keep the nest cool or to help conceal the nest." Last "nest" could be "it".
- "and there are occasionally two broods" What is meant by this? In the same nest, or in separate nests?
- "In these two parents broods" Parent's? And why is "two" needed? It is a bit oddly worded this sentence.
- Removed "two parents"
- "The young are brooded, until about 15 days after hatching, during rain, and, until about 18 days after hatching, at night." I'm not sure what this means. They are brooded less during rain and more during night?
- "Swedish naturalist Carl Linnaeus in the 10th edition of his Systema Naturae." Too much detail for the intro, the name of the describer is enough there.
- ""the originally described population)" That would be the originally described subspecies. Population is not the same.
- "The nest itself is a scrape" Only stated in intro.
- "This likely evolved because of increased insect abundance and reduced predation during the night." Evolved is a bit strong here, "this is likely because" would probably make more sense.
- A "why" tag has been added after the sentence "About 53% of eggs do not hatch", which should be dealt with.
Tony1 edit
1a: I reviewed this not long ago, right? Hmmm ... the lead is still faulty.
- "there are two black breast bands on the breast"—do we really need "breast" twice? And there's a third two seconds later, awkwardly making est est.
- This is not a good sentence: "It is seen year-round in the southern half of its breeding range, and the subspecies C. v. ternominatus is likely resident to the West Indies and C. v. peruvianus inhabits Peru and areas of the surrounding countries throughout the year." and and and trips us up. Have you thought of creating two sort-of sentences using a semicolon? I can't digest it. And "likely" (meaning "probably"), an Americanism I've never been happy with in formal prose. Why? Because it creates a grammatical fork ("is likely to?") that has to be disambiguating shortly after.
- Can you ditch the "However-comma" and replace with simple "But ..."?
- Any chance of avoiding our need to hit the link to "nominate"? ... by (glossing) it?
So, looking through, it's much better than it was. Probably good enough for FA this time, in prose. Possible to use range dashes for numerals? "2 to 6 °C (36 to 43 °F)" -> "2–6 °C (36–43 °F)" ... simpler to read. Tony (talk) 06:09, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
Support Comments from Jim
edit
I'm short of time, so just few points for starters Read through nowJimfbleak - talk to me? 16:04, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
What about its parasites? No mention at all in your article: Jackson, B., J. Jackson. 2000. "Killdeer (Charadrius vociferus)" pp. 1-28 in A Poole, F Gill, eds. The Birds of North America, Vol. 517. apparently claims it hosts at least 13 species (I don't have access)
According to a 1999 mitochondrial DNA study, the killdeer is closely related to the rufous-chested, and semipalmated plover, and the black-fronted and hooded dotterel—this concerns me. Two species from other genera are considered to be closest relatives, rather than others in its own genus, notably common ringed plover, itself the closest relative of semipalmated. I can't access the full reference, but I note that it's nearly 20 years old
The female's mask and breast bands are generally more brown than those of the male.—that's not quite what the source says. HBW has "tends to have", which is much less positive than your statement implies. Hayman, Marchant and Prater 1988 p. 287 has "sexing is not usually possible, but some breeding females show much brown admixed with the black on the face". Non-breeding males also often have some brown in the plumage, so I'd definitely hesitate to sex birds in that plumage
There are three subspecies, including the nominate .—clunky here, why not just leave at There are three subspecies and then later have The nominate (originally described population) subspecies of this plover breeds from southeastern Alaska and southern Canada to Mexico, which clarifies what is currently an incorrect statement.
The killdeer winters from its resident range south to Central America—should be the North American breeders winter from their resident range south to Central America
The killdeer was described in 1758 by Swedish naturalist Carl Linnaeus as Charadrius vociferus in the 10th edition of his Systema Naturae;[2] this name has not been changed—clunky, try The killdeer was described in 1758 by Swedish naturalist Carl Linnaeus as in the 10th edition of his Systema Naturae as Charadrius vociferus, its current name
About 53% of eggs do not hatch—as it says, why not?
range of about 26.3 million kilometres (16.3 mi)—you are using a linear instead of area measure for the range, should be sq km and sq mi, also I think that 26.3 million kilometres is a tad more than 16.3 mi!!
- Average/maximum life span, survival rates etc?
- I found the maximum life span; by the way, this site I just found seems to be really useful (I found the paper I used through this), if you didn't already know about it. RileyBugz私に叫ぼう私の編集 23:42, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- RileyBugz私に叫ぼう, I wasn't aware of that, it looks useful. In practice, I usually write about species with a presence in Europe, where the Euring database does the job, but I guessed that there must be something out there for other regions. Anyway, that's my last point dealt with, so changing to support above Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:25, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
- I found the maximum life span; by the way, this site I just found seems to be really useful (I found the paper I used through this), if you didn't already know about it. RileyBugz私に叫ぼう私の編集 23:42, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
SupportComments from Tim riley
edit
I'll be back with more detailed comments shortly, I hope, but meanwhile I am wondering what variety of English the article is intended to be in. It seems mostly to be in BrE (behaviour, centimetres, coloured, metres, colour, millimetres) but some AmE spellings pop up here and there (southeastern, defense, feces). Tim riley talk 11:53, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
- Yeah, it's mostly in British English. I've changed defense and feces now, but "southeastern"? RileyBugz私に叫ぼう私の編集 19:50, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
Comments, as promised. First an apology. I ought to have made it clear in my passing remark, above, that given the habitat of these birds, AmE would seem to me to be the logical choice. I don't think it's mandatory, though, and if you prefer BrE I doubt if anyone will object. Here are a few general comments, down to the end of the "Habitat and distribution" section:
- Lead
- "Its upperparts are mostly brown with rufous fringes" – I could make a fair guess at what upperparts are, but rufous could do with a link too, I think.
- "The belly and the rest of the breast is white" – singular verb with plural nouns.
- "resident to the West Indies" – is that a technical term? Ordinarily "resident in" would be expected.
- "West Indies" – if you're going to link (which I'm not sure is needed) you should link at first, not second, mention.
- "fledge" – might be helpful to link? Borderline, perhaps.
- Description
- "lores" – definitely could do with a link, I'd say.
- "The killdeer also has a white collar that is black on its upper border" – I'm not sure I understand this. Do you mean a white collar with a black upper border?
- "more pale and grey" – "paler and greyer"?
- Habitat and distribution
- "very locally south to Panama" – I'm not quite certain what this means. Is it that breeding is mostly in the first three countries but is occasionally known in Panama too?
More to come. – Tim riley talk 12:14, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
- Tim, just picking up on the variety of English point you made earlier, there are eight or nine English-speaking countries in the Caribbean part of the killdeer's breeding range that use BE, so it's just as appropriate as AE for this species, and the latter is certainly not necessary Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:14, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
Resuming
- Breeding
- Next-to-last sentence: "It has" – means the bird, not the breeding, I infer. Best make it specific.
I don't know if it's because it's Friday night and I'm accordingly cheerful, but although there are quite a few drafting points I'd prefer written differently I don't think I need single them out, let alone ask for changes. The repeated use of "likely" instead of "probably" seems unidiomatic to an elderly BrEng user, but the meaning is clear, and the prose flows well enough.
I know nothing of ornithology, but as a layman I find the sourcing impressively wide and (many JSTOR refs – always a good sign) evidently authoritative. The prose is clear, and the illustrations splendid. As the coverage of the topic seems to me thorough, I am happy to support. Tim riley talk 18:58, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
Image review edit
- File:Killdeer.jpg: source link is dead. Same with Charadrius_vociferus.ogg. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:20, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
- Found the archived version of the latter, and switched on Commons to reflect. I could not find the source of the former; however, the copyright seems to check out according to this. RileyBugz私に叫ぼう私の編集 19:18, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
- @Nikkimaria: Is the article ok now? RileyBugz私に叫ぼう私の編集 13:10, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
- It looks like the gallery of which the former was a part is still on the site, minus this image; the image also appears elsewhere on the web without this attribution. Is anything more known about its provenance? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:45, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
Comments and support from Gerda edit
Thank you for a good-looking article. I read the lead so far, and am mostly happy. It has several brackets, and I am not sure if they are all necessary, please check. The combination of "However" followed by a close "but" (close to the end) is not to my liking ;) More to come. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:20, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
Etymology ...
- "vox" means "voice".
- According to this source (found on the wiktionary page for vox), "cry" is an appropriate translation. RileyBugz私に叫ぼう私の編集 22:38, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
- "The common name comes from its frequently heard call." - so much in between that "its" is not immediately clear.
Habitat ...
- "... and very with some less widespread grounds further south, to Panama" - don't understand "very" in it.
Got to finish feeding, but need sleep. More to come. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:41, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
Responses ...
- "The parents use various methods to distract predators during the breeding season." - How about: "Breeding killdeer use various methods to distract predators." or some other way to begin with "The parents".
- I'd prefer to keep it as it is, as starting the sentence with "Breeding killdeer" seems to say we are only talking about birds who are copulating. If you don't like how it starts with "The parents", I could change it to "The killdeer" (and I would then make the sentence singular).
- I suggest to first describe the responses, then when they peak.
- "by the killdeer" seems redundant at this point
- The voice in the little movie is so much more convincing than in the short sound file, that I'd go for dropping the sound-only.
- I am not happy with text squeezed between images. Do you have one more, for a little gallery?
Fine article, thank you! I guess we don't have any killdeer in art? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:57, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you! We don't really have anything about it in art, unfortunately. RileyBugz私に叫ぼう私の編集 22:45, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you, support! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:35, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
Coord note edit
Source review? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:03, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
Basilar source review edit
- I take https://www.hbw.com/ is a reliable source?
- I see that some sources sometimes have DOIs and other times don't. I was thinking The Wilson Review especially.
- Same for ISSNs.
- I didn't notice any unreliable or questionable sources.
Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 10:33, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Jo-Jo Eumerus: Thanks for the review! RileyBugz私に叫ぼう私の編集 02:24, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
Spot check edit
coming up....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:42, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
- FN #12 - used twice. material cited and faithful to source. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:48, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
- FN #31 - used twice. material cited and faithful to source. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:51, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
- FN #35 - used twice. material cited and faithful to source. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:52, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
ok I'm happy....
- Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. --Laser brain (talk) 15:02, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.