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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ken "Snakehips" Johnson/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 23 March 2023 "Snakehips"_Johnson/archive1&diff=1146289244&oldid=1146289244.

Ken "Snakehips" Johnson edit

Nominator(s): SchroCat (talk) 15:05, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Snakehips" was an intriguing figure. A swing band leader who had an early influence in British swing music who promised to have a bigger impact on the style, but his life was unfortunately cut short by a German bomb on the Café de Paris at the age of just 26. This underwent a rewrite some time ago and has matured nicely since then. It's had a good PR from Ceoil, Serial Number 54129 and Tim riley and welcomes further comments. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 15:05, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Tim riley edit

After a further rereading just now I have nothing to add to my comments at the peer review, with the exception that although the text in Impact and legacy has been changed, the caption of the picture of Al Bowlly in that section still says that he accompanied the orchestra, rather than vice versa. "Performed with" would be preferable in my view, both there and in the text of the Recordings section.

I am envious of SchroCat for overhauling this article, which in more ways than one is more in my domain than his, but we waive that point, we do not press it, and the article seems to me to meet all the FA criteria. Clear, balanced, a cracking read, well and widely referenced and as well illustrated as I imagine is possible given the period to which the article refers. I look forward to seeing it on the front page in due course. – Tim riley talk 15:43, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks Tim. I'd caught the other 'performed with' previously, but forgot the caption. Now done. (Speaking of which, I need to do the alt texts, before Nikkimaria gets on my case about it again!) Thanks again - SchroCat (talk) 16:04, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • I am getting on your case again about alt text ;-)
  • File:Ken-Snakehips-Johnson.jpg should instead use non-free biog-pic, and who is believed to be the copyright holder? Nikkimaria (talk) 16:07, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • I was just doing the alts - honest!
    • I'll need to check on that one - SchroCat (talk) 16:11, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Details now added; licence template changed. - SchroCat (talk) 16:29, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Accessibility review

Comments by Wehwalt edit

  • I think the intro paragraph should make it clearer that he died as a result of the Blitz, not merely during it.
  • "Surinam". More usually "Suriname"?
  • "African-American dancers" vs. "African American dancer" Check similar usages for consistency.
  • "On saxophone the band comprised three Jamaicans (Bertie King, Louis Stephenson and Joe Appleton) and Robert Mumford-Taylor who was of Sierra Leonean descent." At least one comma might be useful.
  • "The band continued performing at the Old Florida Club and taking day-time stage work," This implies a previous mention of taking day-time stage work, which doesn't seem to be the case.
  • "BBC" is linked on other than the first usage.
  • "His impact on both London clubland, and social changes brought about from the war led to the emergence of later racially-mixed bands." This reads a bit oddly to my eyes, you're saying that he impacted a) clubland and b) the social changes brought about from the war? Or is the "both" a stray word?
  • "Johnson both appeared with his band on BBC Radio and acted as a disc jockey, presenting programmes such as Calypso and other west Indian Music;" Should west be capped?
  • "test match" should test be capped? I note that our article on same does.
That's about it. Interesting subject.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:41, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments edit

  • Any reason why there's one random ref in the lead? The same fact is cited in the body so I don't think it also needs citing in the lead
    • It's a quote, so needs to be supported. - SchroCat (talk) 16:09, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Johnson studied law at London University" => "Johnson studied law at the University of London" (correct name)
  • Wikilink Jimmie Lunceford
    • Added (although technically we're not supposed to link in quotes!) - SchroCat (talk) 16:09, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "On saxophone the band comprised" - comprised isn't really the right word here. Maybe "included"?
  • "both of whom were white, but would wear" => "both of whom were white but would wear"
  • "the move to music for dancing was advantageous for the band "their music..." => "the move to music for dancing was advantageous for the band as "their music..."
  • "The Café de Paris capitalised on the situation; with the club underground, beneath the Rialto cinema; the" - one of those semi-colons should definitely be something else, probably a comma
  • I'd move the one-sentence paragraph about Johnson's funeral onto the end of the previous one
  • Al Bowlly caption needs a full stop
  • "although many bands, including those led by Hutchinson still faced" => "although many bands, including those led by Hutchinson, still faced"
  • That's it :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:29, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Many thanks ChrisTheDude. All done, except the first, which we have to have for the quote. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 16:09, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • Have to say I was not aware that direct quotes needed citing in the lead even if they were also cited in the body but I will AGF on that :-) Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:10, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I'm an inexperienced reviewer here, so maybe I'm misunderstanding what a FA bio is expected to be like, but much of this article seems to be about the band and other people he admired or was close to rather than about him. Valereee (talk) 16:27, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Well, no man is an island, so anyone who operates as a bandleader is going to have their professional career fairly prominent. The people referred to are not necessarily people he admired, but people who influenced him, his style and his music. - SchroCat (talk) 16:36, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Okeydoke. Like I said, inexperienced here. Valereee (talk) 17:03, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh, I think it's a fair question to ask, regardless of FAC experience but, in this instance, I think the balance between him and his wider professional circle is one we get more or less right. It's difficult to deal with him and his impact without explaining the milieu in which he worked and moved. - SchroCat (talk) 17:13, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ceoil edit

Reading through. Looks good; struggling for quibbles.

  • Lead: causing Thompson and several musicians to leave - "causing" or "forcing"
  • I think "causing" is OK here. They had a choice to stay - and some of those who left returned. Thompson would probably think he was forced out though! - SchroCat (talk) 09:58, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes but I meant was it deliberate so he could take over. Ceoil (talk) 18:50, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lead: The fourth para is slightly out-of-sync timeline wise and says "after Johnson's death" twice. Maybe move the sentence "Johnson was tall, elegant, and modelled himself professionally on Cab Calloway" somewhere near to "Increasingly popular, they were employed as".
  • I moved it even further up - to his return from the US and forming the band - it seems to work better there. - SchroCat (talk) 09:58, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Early life: Through Bradley's influence Johnson was recorded in 1934 for the film Oh, Daddy!, . What does influence mean in this context (we use the word in a different meaning in the sentence before). I'd drop "released in 1935" Ceoil (talk) 22:14, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Career: Changed the sect title as all careers are professional
  • Career: The paragraph beginning "In April 1939" is followed by a para leading with "towards the end of 1938"
  • Career: In general these later paras seems slightly stubby and veering towards prose-line, would do some merging.
  • More later. Ceoil (talk) 22:40, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Any remaining issues are small and deal with myself without itemising here. Ceoil (talk) 23:23, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Cheers Ceoil - That's great, thanks very much. I've dealt with these, except the "influence" point, which I'll have think on. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:58, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support and comments from Jim edit

Not much to pick at here, but a few queries

  • nearly all-black—mainly black?
  • As leader of an all-black orchestra—does this contradict "nearly all-black"?
  • Through Bradley's influence Johnson was recorded in 1934—comma after "influence"
  • 50-kg high-explosive bomb—conversion?
  • Deniz and Bromley both had a broken leg—each had a broken leg
  • Johnson was tall—6 feet 4 inches (1.93 m)—elegant and handsome—Do we need his height again?
  • Thanks Jim - that's very good of you. The changes made as you suggested. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:59, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie edit

I heard of Johnson only recently; he's a peripheral figure in the plot of Ben Aaronovitch's Moon Over Soho, in his excellent Rivers of London series. I thought he was an interesting figure then and am glad to have a chance to read more about him.

  • Any reason not to link Ellington?
  • I think the lead and body are a bit out of sync in how they describe the two bands Johnson formed in Britain. The lead says "He returned to Britain and set up the West Indian Dance Orchestra, a nearly all-black swing band, with Leslie Thompson, a Jamaican musician." The body says "In 1936 he teamed up with the Jamaican trumpeter Leslie Thompson to form an all-black jazz band, the Aristocrats (or Emperors) of Jazz, sometimes the "Jamaican Emperors", who made their debut that April", then "As Thompson could not find suitable black trombonists, he employed Reg Amore and Freddie Greenslade, both of whom were white but would wear blackface to ensure the band were seen as an all-black ensemble.", which seems to be about the same version of the band, and then "Johnson and the West Indian Dance Orchestra appeared in an early television broadcast on the BBC in either 1938 or 1939", which is the first mention of that name for the band in the body. If the "West Indian Dance Orchestra" is the "almost all-black" version then the lead has it wrong. If they're the same band with a name change and a couple of personnel changes I think that should be clearer in the body.
  • "Culturally the orchestra made an impact in society: the all-black outfit was the only one in the country." Perhaps "apparently all-black"?
  • "Fraser wrote that Johnson became...": can we introduce Fraser?
  • "the Henderson Twins on vocal": "vocals"? Or is this a usage I'm not aware of?

I had a look in the British Newspaper Archive and found lots of coverage of Johnson's radio performances, but nothing that I think is worth adding. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:39, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Mike, Moon Over Soho - that was the jazz vampires one, wasn't it? Many thanks for your comments. All dealt with, bar one - the description of the bands.
The sources are rather garbled on this point – and patchy when it comes to the full make-up of the band in places. And it doesn't help that the name of the band was a little fluid at times too. We know that there were two white in the band, who wore blackface much of the time. It's less clear whether they left the band at any point, or—if they did—when and under what name the band was operating. Despite the two white members in there, the sources refer to the band as the first all-black jazz or swing band – even during the time Amore and Greenslade were among the players. According to this, the trombone player for the recording session in Feb 1938 was Lad Busby, but whether that was a one-off I'd not like to say – I think we may be going into OR territory if we draw too much inference from that one listing. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 10:28, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the jazz vampires one! I think what's bothering me about the band names is that the lead doesn't seem to agree with the body. If the sources are garbled, I can see we need to leave some points unsettled, but the lead says the band was formed as the West Indian Dance Orchestra, whereas in the body it says it was formed as the Aristocrats of Jazz. I don't think the lead has to reflect all the uncertainties in the body, but it reads as a direct contradiction at the moment, so I think some change is needed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:40, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Mike. I've tweaked the lead a little, and it now follows the correct naming chronology - hopefully it reads OK too. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 19:51, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. One more tweak I would suggest is that since "Johnson and the West Indian Dance Orchestra appeared in an early television broadcast on the BBC in either 1938 or 1939" is the first mention in the body of that name for the band, perhaps make it "Johnson and the West Indian Dance Orchestra, as the band were now known, appeared in an early television broadcast on the BBC in either 1938 or 1939"? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:03, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Your wish is my command! Now done. - SchroCat (talk) 20:08, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Serial# edit

All my concerns were resolved at the PR, and the article has only improved since then. I meant to look in here, but I've been beaten to it. Still, at least that means I'm available for the
SN54129 16:24, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Forgot to say thank you for this, so thanks! - SchroCat (talk) 20:09, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review—pass edit

  • Fraser's entry in the Ox. Comp. Bl. Music requires pagination.
  • Ditto, Simons in Aural History
  • Need a section with one entry be called, generally, 'Other' rather than specifically Television'? I could understand multiple entries, but.
  • At first glance, there's a helluva reliance on the Radio Times, but I note it's primarily for the bald statements re. Johnson's broadcasts.
  • The literature used otherwise appears to be a broad coverage of reliable authors, presses and publishers; nothing jumps out as irrelevant, while, conversely, a courage of the databases, etc., leaves me assured that nothing of any particular import has been committed that would not lead the article into WP:UNDUE territory.
  • Nice selection of both primary and secondary materials.
A sad story; a nice article. Cheers. SN54129 16:24, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks SN. I’ve dealt with these. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 01:58, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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