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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Indian roller/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 5 July 2021 [1].

Indian roller edit

Nominator(s): BhagyaMani (talk · contribs), LittleJerry (talk · contribs), Aa77zz (talk · contribs), Shyamal (talk · contribs) & Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:00, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Right folks, we scoured the world for sources. And got a thorough going-over at GAN. I think in terms of comprehensiveness and prose this is on a par (or at least within striking distance) of other bird FAs. Let us know of any outstanding issues and we'll fix pronto. Cheers, Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:00, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Image licensing looks good (t · c) buidhe 18:16, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • I swapped a few of the images for higher resolution ones and added a painting in the culture section. Feel free to rv my changes except for the header image, which I think should be the FP of the bird. (t · c) buidhe 18:41, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Valereee edit

  • The caption for the image of the bird in the tree hollow says they breed in hollows and crevices. Do they actually breed there, or do they just nest there? —valereee (talk) 23:39, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 03:06, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI: yes -is a collaborative project and all input is welcome Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:43, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI, rufous is linked, but I still have no idea what rufous-white is. Rufous is a shade of brown, and seems to be a pretty dark shade of brown. That seems like something that can't be called -white. Yellowish-white, sure. Even bluish-white, as there's no color word for that. But blackish-white would just be grey, reddish-white would be pink, and I feel like brownish-white is just tan. Maybe a rufous shade of tan? —valereee (talk) 19:16, 16 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And in fact the word rufous isn't even used in the body -- it says pinkish buff. —valereee (talk) 19:19, 16 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 00:27, 17 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Namesake relative" is a fairly uncommon term, maybe a link? —valereee (talk) 23:59, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 21:40, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why are we naming in the lead the subspecies that isn't included, but not the two that are? —valereee (talk) 10:29, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I think it is common to list distinct species which were previously confused for the animal, no? Subspecies are imo too specific a detail for the lead. Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI converse | fings wot i hav dun 16:50, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Subspecies do not commonly have a common name and are often hard to distinguish to all but experts. Mentioning them in the lead is fine - naming them individually probably doesn't need to happen. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:37, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Ceoil edit

  • Two subspecies are recognised. The Indochinese roller was formerly included as a subspecies. punctuation here isn't great.
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 03:06, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Linnaeus based his description on the "Jay from Bengal" that had been described
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 03:06, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • ...who in turn had received a drawing from a namesake relative who resided at Fort St. George, India. - Would cut this altogether. I mean, who cares.
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 03:06, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • also described a roller from India under - drop also
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 03:06, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • which actually lies within the range of the southern subspecies, - never say "actually"
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 03:06, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Two subspecies are recognized:[8] - As this is followed by a bulleted list...maybe The two recognized subspecies are:[8]'
This formatting is more typical. LittleJerry (talk) 01:28, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Ceoil, is there more to come? Gog the Mild (talk) 14:42, 3 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No Gog. There has been a lot of further input and work since my comments, that I half kept an eye on via watchlist. I'm not close enough to the article to support, but have no objections if this is promoted. Ceoil (talk) 14:51, 3 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Scratch that. Read again, and made trivial edits. Support on prose. Ceoil (talk) 15:16, 3 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Femke edit

Resolved
  • states of India may be a better link than India in second paragraph lede.
Done. Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI converse | fings wot i hav dun 17:21, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Explain anting. Shouldn't that picture be in the next section?
I've moved the pic, I'll let the noms decide how best to explain it. Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI converse | fings wot i hav dun 17:21, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I overassumed on the anting. changed to sunning now. new location is fine.Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:39, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • and called Little King among villagers in Khuzestan Province -> relevance for conservation? That name might fit better in the taxonomy section.
I've moved it to "in culture". where I think a separate section for names could be added... Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI converse | fings wot i hav dun 17:21, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry @Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI: then we'd have two separate sections for names - taxonomy includes scientific and common names. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:54, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think that the section Taxonomy should contain info about scientific names and classification. But common names, i.e. names used by people in various regions and cultures, should be placed in the section In culture. Common names are not at all relevant in taxonomy. So I agreed with Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI to move the common names. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 08:58, 12 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Except that the International Ornithologists' Union makes a big deal of giving official names and (sometimes) aligning them with taxonomy. True if names have some folklore have put them in cultural sections, but anything that is just a name we've put in taxonomy, well for the last several dozen bird/snake/plant articles I've taken to FAC and others I have seen as well Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:17, 12 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
On sleeping on it have moved back to culture anything that is not strictly name only. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:32, 12 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not entirely sure we can use such an old source here for protection in Iran.
amended with ref. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 18:22, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
has been done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:39, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The list of subspecies has inconsistent bracketing
I'm pretty sure that bracketing is correct because Linnaeus described the nominate subspecies benghalensis as a Corvus species, but indicus as a Coracias species. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 22:26, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Bhagyamani is correct Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:38, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Explain type locality
None of the 2 authors -- Linnaeus + Edwards -- provide any more detail about localities than just India + Ceylon. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 22:41, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Explaining common jargon is allowed without it being explicit in the sources. Given the fact that type locality is not the exact link, hovering over the term doesn't give an immediate understanding either. FemkeMilene (talk) 20:45, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 21:49, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Should Threats be before Conservation (why conserve if there are no threats)? Maybe merge the two sections? FemkeMilene (talk) 20:59, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Swapped. And yes, I also like it better that way, but separate. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 22:45, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's the state bird of three Indian states, but only one of them is given a navbox at the bottom. Do the other two also exist?
added 2 missing navboxes. Or should all 3 be removed? After all: none of the other countries in IR range are not navbox'ed either? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 06:17, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I guess they are in because of the symbolism. I have no strong feelings whether they are kept or removed. I don't think we need them on other countries Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:59, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • On my screen, the 'Indian roller in Kerala' photo would be better placed in 'Distribution and habitat' (making sure the refs aren't pushed to the left)
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 21:49, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 21:49, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • a channel with rods of β-keratin containing rods of 100 nm -- rods containing rods? FemkeMilene (talk) 16:21, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 17:13, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Is linked - you want explanation was well? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:56, 12 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I couldn't figure out what it meant approximately from context. FemkeMilene (talk) 09:34, 13 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Okay I did this - looks a bit cumbersome to me but then again is an area I am familiar with so a neophyte's view is welcome :) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:21, 15 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Accessibility review - pass edit
  • There are a few non-english words in the article. Is it possible to use the lang template with those languages (f.i. neelkanth and pɑːla-pitta)?
now templated Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:06, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Include alt for all images that are not purely decorative. FemkeMilene (talk) 15:59, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI converse | fings wot i hav dun 16:51, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Make sure that the alts don't repeat the caption, this would typically cause the text-to-speech software to repeat itself. If the caption is sufficient to understand the picture, you can add 'refer to caption' (or leave it blank?). Ask yourself: what relevant information do readers miss if they can't see the picture. FemkeMilene (talk) 16:55, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oh I didn't know that's how tts software worked. I assumed it would look for and read only the alt text, not the caption. Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI converse | fings wot i hav dun 17:21, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Source review - pass edit
    • Formatting looks good;
    • FN 59, 60 do not have information about Karnataka.
added a ref. @Shyamal: may know a different one? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 16:52, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Added a ZSI ref. Shyamal (talk) 04:23, 12 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Page 140 of FN61 does not seem to mention England. The previous page mentions exports to a wider set of countries. FemkeMilene (talk) 16:17, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 17:05, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • It was a common winter visitor to the marshes and mudflats of Shadegan County in Iran, though not reported since the early 1970s; I don't think the latter is in the source, as its scope seems to be the 1970s. FemkeMilene (talk) 10:46, 12 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have reworded it to remove implication it has not been reported since Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:54, 12 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The sentence about the Kol people is cited to 1946. Should it be reworded so that it's unclear whether this is still the case (These things are always a bit awkward to word nicely).
Have changed to "traditionally considered" to place it in folklore. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:52, 12 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support and comments from Jim edit

I've seen this striking bird in several places, with the greatest density on irrigated fields in Dubai. You've done a really comprehensive job, even including predators and parasites, which I always look for in bird articles A few minor comments:

  • I tend to have predators and parasites as a separate section, but your call
  • Differences with other species heading; I'd say " differences from..."
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 18:58, 16 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do you have a weight for the egg?
  • We had, but alas, this was an article published in a predatory journal. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 17:29, 16 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The "In culture" section should mention its subject near the beginning like the other sections, I don't think we can just carry over "it" from another section.
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 18:58, 16 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • A local Hindi name is neelkanth — local to what part of India? or do you mean it's a general inidan vernacular name?
    Local to where Hindi is spoken, redundant and now dropped. Shyamal (talk) 15:37, 16 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support by JJE edit

As usual, a point-by-point review:

  • 1a: Prose seems OK to me.
  • 1b: Seems to fit.
  • 1c: Going to have to take the nominator's word on this as I know nothing about this bird. Inline citations are used through the article and none of the references jump out as inappropriate.
  • 1d: Going to have to take the nominator's word on this as I know nothing about this bird.
  • 1e: Fits.
  • 1f: The "drop random sentences into Google test" shows no issues.
@Jo-Jo Eumerus: For future reference, you can use this tool. Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI converse | fings wot i hav dun 12:24, 20 June 2021 (UTC) [reply]
  • 2a: Seems to fit.
  • 2b: I dunno, maybe the plumage and not the voice would warrant a subsection.
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 21:39, 19 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Added ref -- BhagyaMani (talk) 12:45, 19 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The source is given in the image page LittleJerry (talk) 21:43, 19 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Re the alt text - see my messages and Femke's above, in her comments. Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI converse | fings wot i hav dun 16:49, 19 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • 4: Seems to fit.

Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 12:32, 19 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

OK, supporting this with the sole caveat that I don't know anything about this bird. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:28, 20 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Drive-by comments
  • Perhaps combine the first 2 sentences with "which". Consider removing Indonesian roller from lead as distracting. Maybe mention in lead that the subspecies are northern and southern. Chidgk1 (talk) 12:17, 23 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Removed the Indochinese roller in lede. But if combining the 1st 2 sentences with "which", this "which" maybe misunderstood as referring to Coraciidae? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 13:12, 23 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

FYI edit

I'd think so, especially as Indochinese roller not mentioned, which makes me think authors are assuming they are still a single species. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:37, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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