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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Illustrated Daily News/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 17 June 2020 [1].

Illustrated Daily News edit

Nominator(s): Wehwalt (talk) 20:09, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about... a Los Angeles newspaper with a colorful history. It's one of my older articles that I've recently been sprucing up.Wehwalt (talk) 20:09, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Captions that aren't complete sentences shouldn't end in periods
  • Don't use fixed px size
  • Suggest adding alt text
  • File:LosAngelesDailyNewsHistoricCover.jpg needs a more expansive FUR. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:37, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the review, Nikkimaria. I have replaced the non-free image with a free one and added several others from the same source. I've also added alt text where not already, and done the other things.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:16, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:17, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from HueSatLum edit

  • I made some small grammar fixes, feel free to fix if I missed the mark on any.
  • Republican Party (United States) is linked twice in the lead.
  • Believing the best newspaper was a democratic one, he offered voting rights to those who would pay $5... Can you clarify what this means? What did subscribers get to vote on?
They got shares in the corporation. I've clarified.
  • Link World War I?
  • I think stockholder's should be stockholders'?
Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:18, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would link Herbert Hoover's bid for reelection in 1932.
We don't seem to have an article on that.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:18, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oh sorry, I meant you should link 1932 United States presidential election somewhere in there. ~huesatlum/ 00:04, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I've piped to that.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:21, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there any more background on the Los Angeles Record?
No, the source simply says "the old Los Angeles Record.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:18, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm guessing Camelia should be Camellia.
Oops. Fixed.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:18, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are a number of choppy sentences that could be combined, for example in the paragraph beginning After the primary defeat... ~huesatlum/ 22:46, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I've merged some together. Thanks for the review.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:21, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for taking care of that. I'm close to a support; I will give the article another look-through soon. ~huesatlum/ 15:40, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Everything checks out. I'm happy to support. ~huesatlum/ 03:34, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • One more small thing: You're mixing CS1 (cite book) with CS2 (citation) templates in the bibliography. Those should be consistent. ~huesatlum/ 20:29, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Good point. Fixed. Thanks for the review and support.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:51, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley edit

  • "The Los Angeles Daily News (originally the Los Angeles Illustrated Daily News), often referred to simply as the Daily News, was a newspaper published from 1923 to 1954." I find this confusing. Los Angeles is not in italics, implying that it was not part of the newspaper's name, yet you say it is often referred to simply as the Daily News, implying that the full name does include the town. I also think it is a bad idea to have half of a bold phrase in italics - as with sea of blue. If Los Angeles was not part of the name, I suggest "The Daily News (originally the Illustrated Daily News) was a newspaper published in Los Angeles from 1923 to 1954."
They did use the "Los Angeles" in the Daily News name so I've adopted your proposal in modified form.
  • If they did use Los Angeles in the name, why is it not italicised? Dudley Miles (talk) 08:42, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • They were not consistent in using it. The masthead did not say Los Angeles but I have the brochure they published on what to expect during WWII, and it says "Los Angeles Daily News" in a logo format.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:54, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • If both were used as the title, then Los Angeles Daily News should be fully italicised. A bold name half italicised as Los Angeles Daily News looks wrong. Dudley Miles (talk) 17:32, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. Changed that.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:21, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The publication has no connection with the current newspaper of the same name." This seems unnecessary as it is covered by the hatnote.
Cut.
  • "After quickly going bankrupt, it was sold to Boddy". Below you say it went into receivership. An individual goes bankrupt, a company into receivership.
Done.
  • "He sold his interest in 1952, and publication ceased in December 1954". Maybe "He sold his interest in 1952, and after several further changes in ownership publication ceased in December 1954"
Done in modified form.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:20, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Los Angeles Mirror. Why is Los Angeles not italicised? The article it links to says that the town was part of the title.
  • "The newspaper covered its staff's transportation". I thought for a second you meant that the newspaper reported on its staff's transportation! I think "paid for" would be better.
Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:11, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the least experienced newsman on staff" I would delete "on staff".
Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:11, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The stockholders' committee got the Vanderbilt family to sign over a $1 million note" What does this mean? To cancel a $1 million debt?
Rephrase.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:11, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Hearst's mistress, Marion Davies, wrote in her 1975 memoirs that 51% of the Daily News was actually owned by Hearst." So why did not Hearst close it down? If her claim was not credible, it should not be reported without comment.
I've added more of what Davies had to say about it. I don't find any mention in the major Hearst biography, The Chief.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:04, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "began a campaign against vice" What does vice mean in this context? Prostitution?
I've added to this some.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:11, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "She did so well that there was no vacancy when he returned". What does this mean? Why should there have been a vacancy?
Women were expected to be only temporary wartime replacements. She stuck. I'll tweak it.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:04, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I assume you mean that she replaced her husband when she was appointed. If so, this should be stated specifically. Dudley Miles (talk) 08:42, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
OK, thanks for the review. I think I'm up to date here.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:11, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • More comments
  • "In 1950, feeling that he was repeating himself in print, Boddy sought the Democratic nomination for United States Senate." I do not follow the reasoning here.
  • "Smith attempted to sell the paper" But you said Boddy sold to a consortium.
  • I think the final paragraph should be a separate section headed 'Legacy'.
  • A first rate article, although I doubt whether Marion Davies is a reliable source. If you cannot find any comment on her claims by other writers, I think you should relegate them to a note. Dudley Miles (talk) 19:26, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I've dealt with those matters. Thanks for being so thorough.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:10, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note edit

I probably should've had this on the Urgents list -- we need to scare up another comprehensive review in short order, as well as a source review, to promote. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:13, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I will work on it.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:41, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from SN54129 edit

I didn't see this slipping down the list. Let me have a look. ——Serial # 15:15, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Founding
  • "Believing the best newspaper was a democratic one": can "democratic" be clarified? I guess it refers to its political leanings (in which case perhaps link Democratic?), but it could be misunderstood to be one which is internally democratic.
No, he wanted democracy in the running of it. I've added some detail--Wehwalt (talk) 16:23, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Repudiating the legendary adage of William Henry Vanderbilt, "The public be damned," Vanderbilt announced that the paper's philosophy would be "The public be served.": This reads oddly—as if he was repudiating himself! Clarify inline that it was his (great?) grandfather who had originally said it. Perhaps split the sentence if it gets lengthened in doing so.
I think we can survive the length.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:23, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The WC becoming as important as the EC: is that just in terms of newspaper readership, or generally? Do you fancy a footnote briefly explaining why the EC had historically been more important?
Generally. I've added "with its increasing population". I think people know that the East Coast was settled first.
  • Do we know how Vanderbilt knew Lord Northcliffe? The latter was in the states May–November 1917 as part of a Brit propaganda campaign, but of course, Vanderbilt's involvement with the press doesn't start for another 6 years. Any ideas?
The source is not clear on this. Vanderbilt had worked in the newspapers before 1923, by the way. It may be a bit far afield. The only detail is "a family friend" so I've added that.
  • London's Daily Mail of the British DM? It's never been a local paper  :)
Britain's, then.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:23, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "paired with tabloid newspapers: he wanted a newspaper that would cost one cent": perhaps, "paired with tabloid newspapers: he wanted one that would cost a cent..." would be a bit tighter a lose the repetitious newspaper.
Did this.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:42, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Specific examples of Hearst/Chandler's attempts to warn him off?
Added.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:41, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Great, Pico Blvd gets a mention, I've been there!)
Not sure. I've certainly been to downtown LA but will have to look at the site if I get back there (probably not until next year)..
  • " and furnished it with the latest equipment": As an office, printworks or both?
Printworks seem to be the deal.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:41, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I like the good old fashioned free lunch bribe, it's good to know somethings never change! Is there any suggestions as to his "high-pressure sales tactics" were though?
I'm basically quoting here.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:41, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Any idea ho his rivals planted the sex story?
No. Both sources mention it, the second is to add that it involved Chaplin.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:41, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • page 2: page two.
  • "Nevertheless, Vanderbilt in December 1923 expanded to San Francisco ": "Nevertheless, in December 1923 Vanderbilt expanded to San Francisco"?
OK.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:58, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Miami—the Illustrated Daily Tab": suggest "Miami, where the Illustrated Daily Tab", if you want.
I'd rather not, it makes the sentence more difficult and I'd prefer not to split it.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:58, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Too often, however, the least experienced newsman, Vanderbilt himself": why?
Strong indication of boss's privilege. I think it's made pretty clear.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:58, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Know why he didn't like the SPR or Bank of Italy? (You explain his aversion to PER.)
On double-checking the source, I find his objection was expressed in the Herald, so I've cut that. The source also mentions his dislike of plans for a major sports stadium, which I suppose is the Coliseum but which was completed in 1923, so I'm going to leave it with the streetcars.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:04, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "help if most authority": "primary editorial control" is the phrase generally used I think?
But it also included financial control.
  • Have you considered using the {{Inflation/US|year1|year2}} template to contextualise the massive amounts of money we must be talking about? (A million in the 20s? Wow!)
I really don't like inflation templates. I don't feel they work over very different economic times.
  • "could survive if $300,000 more were invested in them": how about the sightly shorter "could survive if they received $300,000 further investment"?
That's shorter? Done a little differently.
Good point.
  • "the Daily News was deemed the most salvageable": suggest "only the Daily News was deemed salvageable".
I think what I put is more true to the source, which says, "While the News was losing up to $50,000 a month, newspaper

experts considered it the best risk of the three. The Tab was still profitable, if only marginally, but the Herald was beyond salvation."

Boddy takes over
  • "A consortium of the publishers of the rivals": "A consortium comprising rival publishers"?
Done a little differently.
  • Do you know why Vanderbilt's family were willing to sign over a million to Boddy when they had been unwilling to give their son 300K? Presumably, they trusted the former's business sense more than the latter's, but is there something in the sources saying this?
I don't find an "in so many words" source. This seems to be the note that the parents made Vanderbilt sign, which was secured by his inheritance. If so, it may have been up to Vanderbilt what to do with it, since it is coming out of his pocket either way. Presumably he'd rather give the Daily News a chance to stay in business. It may be best just to pass over this point, as the focus is moving to Boddy.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:07, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Boddy and Lewis both served...could repossess": perhaps split this.
Done.--``~`
  • In some cases you "Open a quote" with an upper case but "in others", you don't?
The MOS recommends complete sentences start with a capital. I think I've done it that way.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:49, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Brief explanation of what the L.A. System actually is!
I've added a bit more and given a link to Charles H. Crawford, who was in charge.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:10, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "often embarrassed the powerful, once displaying a photograph": "often embarrassed the powerful, once, for example, displaying a photograph", as I guess there were plenty more.
So it seems. I see mention of this in multiple sources.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:51, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "its price from two to three cents": Don't suppose you know (or could find out) when it went up from Vanderbilt's original one cent?
My view is, is if the sources don't dwell on the price changes, they are probably beyond the scope of a general-information encyclopedia article.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:26, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Prewar years
  • " the Daily News maintained a conservative editorial policy": H'mm, up there you say it originally had democratic leanings? Or is it the case that, at the time, neither Dems nor the GOP were anything other than conservative?
That was the governance of the paper. I haven't seen anything that the IDN under Vanderbilt had strong national political leanings.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:51, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "which saw Roosevelt elected": might be worth adding "by a landslide", or something (having won 46 of the 52!), to indicate the depth of Boddy's sense of mistake.
I'm not sure your numbers are right but I've added that.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:25, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Did that.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:25, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "to read them over the air": On air, or live?
I am pretty sure it would have been live in that era but I don't see it makes much of a difference.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:51, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Decline and fall
  • "Boddy had predicted World War II several years in advance": when and how? Before the Munich Agreement would be unusual, unless he read Churchill of course...
That's all the source says on that. There is another source that says he predicted the breakup of the Germany-USSR alliance. I'm not sure it's that remarkable. A lot of people saw war coming in one form or another. Boddy was well-informed and he had been gassed in the trenches in WWI. It's worth mentioning but it's not worth a huge amount of time.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:25, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The same sentence: how about "...in advance. When it came, though, his desire...".
Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:21, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the other Los Angeles dailies": Such as? I'm thinking, the reader will probably assume the LAT.
Added.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:16, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in the management of the paper": "in managing the paper" or "in the paper's management".
Fine.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:16, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the pink lady": clarify this was a reflection of supposed political sympathies; the uninitiated might think it's a cocktail.
Added.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:16, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In August 1952, Boddy announced his retirement as publisher in Smith's favor": I don't quite get this. If he's already sold the paper to Smith's consortium, why is Boddy's retirement in Smith's favour?
I don't think it's unusual. It is close to the time of the sale of the paper.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:16, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Substituting a Sunday News for the money-losing Saturday edition": What was the loss-making one called?
It was the Daily News, as far as I can tell. Papers sometimes have different names on Sunday, not so often on Saturday.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:16, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Any idea why Towns was fired so soon?
I don't have an RS on this, but Smith apparently was looking for a quick fix that would lead to a profitable sale.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:16, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, I have no idea what "seller's remorse" is, but it sounds interesting.
  • But not remorseful enough not to sell it four months later though! Any idea why the change of heart?
See just above.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:16, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "every wealthy liberal person I ever heard of": Any examples?
I just looked at the source. He doesn't get into the specifics of it.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:27, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Creditors pressed for repayment of debt": you could legitimately insert a "though" or "however" after "debt", since the negativity of the creditors is in contrast to the positive news it runs on from.
  • "their jobs without severance pay. The unionized workforce lost their jobs just before Christmas": you could probably tighten this to "their jobs without severance pay, just before Christmas", as although we were told at earlier that Vanderbilt ran a closed shop, it hasn't been mentioned since. Or, perhaps, move it.
It appears to have been a union shop, rather than a closed shop. I'm inclined to let it stand as is.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:41, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Legacy
  • "Cecilia Rasmussen of the Los Angeles Times wrote in 2004": "Cecilia Rasmussen of the Los Angeles Times wrote in 2004 how".
Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:41, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "peach-colored tabloid pages": Interesting. Page colour might get a mention at the beginning? (If that's how it started?)
I've added something in the WWII period, since they had to change it during the war.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:41, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nice article, Wehwalt. Hope this is of help; remember, some might be EngVar misunderstandings on my part, and some are preferential improvements really. All the best, ——Serial # 15:15, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your comprehensive review. I think I've gotten to everything although I will check.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:41, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Serial Number 54129 I've added one I missed. Thanks again for the review.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:51, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note (2) edit

I'm seeing an image review but no source review? --Ealdgyth (talk) 14:01, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've requested one.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:36, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review edit

Placeholder; will get to it shortly. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:28, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • You have a location for Rayner, but not for the other books -- any reason not to be consistent?
  • All the sources are reliable and appropriately formatted. Gellman appears to be a partisan source but you're not using him for anything controversial.
  • Not source-related, but I happened to notice the footnote says "a fact kept secret lest he circumvent rules"; surely it should be "in order to circumvent"? Or perhaps the thought was "lest it be known that he was circumventing"?

This passes source review; the location issue is just a consistency question and very minor. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:44, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've fixed those issues. Thank you for that.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:02, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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