Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Hughie Ferguson/archive2

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 14 January 2023 [1].

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Hughie Ferguson

Nominator(s): Kosack (talk) 12:50, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

This article is about a Scottish footballer who achieved many notable feats during his career before his life ended in tragedy. I originally nominated this in May 2021 but it garnered little attention. Deciding to have another run at it now though. Looking forward to any comments. Kosack (talk) 12:50, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Comments

• "he played for Parkhead at junior level" - maybe find a way to clarify that "junior" in this context has nothing to do with age?

  I've added that he was a semi-pro at the time and linked junior to the Scottish Junior Football Association. Let me now if it needs more clarification. Kosack (talk) 18:43, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

• "scored the winning goals in both the 1927 FA Cup Final, in a 1–0 victory over Arsenal, and the 1927 FA Charity Shield," - that kinda reads like you are referring to three different matches rather than two

Reworded. Kosack (talk) 18:43, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

• "He joined Parkhead Juniors in 1914" - everywhere else in the article the club is simply referred to as Parkhead

Fixed. Kosack (talk) 18:43, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

• "Parkhead went on to win the tie 2–0" - maybe change to "the match" so as to avoid any confusion with "tie" meaning a draw

Done. Kosack (talk) 18:43, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

• "However, he remained with Parkhead and by the midway point of the campaign, Ferguson was one of the most coveted young players in the country,[8] having scored more than 30 goals by the midway point of the season" - repetition of "midway point of the season" is a bit jarring

Reworded. Kosack (talk) 18:43, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

• That's what I got as far as the end of "early career". Back for more later :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:20, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for taking a look Chris. I've responded to all the points above. Kosack (talk) 18:43, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

More comments

• It occurs to me that it might be slightly confusing to refer to "English Football League First Division side Cardiff City" and then describe them as a non-English club three sentences later, as readers who don't know the specifics might think that the adjective "English" refers to the club rather than or as well as the league. Maybe just refer to them as "Welsh side Cardiff City" in the lead and specify in the body that they played in the English First Division (which isn't actually mentioned at present)
• "Motherwell began the following year in poor form" - you were just talking about 1918, which would make the following year 1919, and then you have "Motherwell recovered to repeat their fifth place finish the following year", so is that 1920? The chronology of this paragraph is very confusing.
• "tied with James Williamson of Hibernians" - the club is called Hibernian (singular)
• "and netted four of his side's goal" => goals
• "His goalscoring form attracted attention from Football League sides" - need to link the League (maybe also specify that it's English)
• "his first hat-trick of the campaign against Dumbarton in October,[.....] Two weeks later, he received his second cap for the Scottish League XI in October 1921" - a bit inelegant, maybe lose the first "in October". Oh, and lose the year from the second one, as you already said it's the 1921-22 season
• "Ferguson finished third in the scorers ranking" => "Ferguson finished third in the scorers' ranking"
• "Cardiff ended the campaign in 16th place, avoiding relegation" - wikilink relegation
• "during which the Western Mail bemoaned Ferguson's absence" - Western Mail should be in italics. Also, it's not linked here but is on a later usage.
• "Dundee Courier later reported" - link the paper
• "gassing himself at Dens Park" - maybe specify that this is Dundee's stadium?
• "He was also interested in birds and kept the animals" - reads a bit odd to me describing birds as animals, as usually I think of "birds and animals" as separate things. Maybe just "He was also interested in and kept birds"......?
• "Ferguson's main attribute was his finishing ability; the Sporting Chronicle" - link the paper
• Note 2 is not a complete sentence so doesn't need a full stop
• Think that's all I got - a really good read! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 21:46, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks again Chris, I've amended all of the points above apart from the Sporting Chronicle link as it's already linked previously. Let me know if you spot anything else. Kosack (talk) 10:15, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

• Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:33, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

• Coordinator comment - I'm sorry, but as this one is nearing three weeks with little action, I'm afraid this will have to be archived in a couple days if significant movement towards a consensus to promote is not made. Hog Farm _Talk 20:16, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Comments by Eem dik doun in toene

• His date of birth is not mentioned anywhere in the body (or referenced as far as I can see)
• "as a semi-professional", but in the body it's said that he "retained his amateur status"
• "joined Parkhead in 1914" ==> maybe mentioned Parkhead was Glasgow-based (so he left his hometown)
• "he hoped for an offer from a Lancashire-based side" ==> do you have an idea why he specifically wanted to play in that region? Not that this sentence needs amending but I'm just curious.
• "against Kilmarnock and" ==> Killie can be wikilinked
• Maybe mention the clubs Jock White ("one short of Jock White") and Dave Halliday ("behind Dave Halliday and") were playing for?
• "19‑year‑old teammate of Ferguson said" ==> there's a comma missing
• "with goal ratio per game of" ==> there's word missing
• I've got nothing more to add. Top work. Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 22:37, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

@Eem dik doun in toene: Thanks for the review, I've amended all of the points you listed. Kosack (talk) 08:24, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

• Support. Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 12:16, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Images are appropriately licensed, but are there no better-quality options available? Given the dates I'd expect there might be. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:32, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

There are other images of Ferguson out there but the licensing is sketchy at best. I did quite a bit of hunting through the British Newspaper Archive when I was looking for images, but I'd be stretching the licensing by using others I'd say. Kosack (talk) 08:24, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Source review

Footnote numbers refer to this version.

• FN 86 has no publisher location. - Added
• Any reason why you give the publisher for FN 106? Elsewhere you only give the publisher for news citations for the web-based news organizations, but here you give both publisher and newspaper name.

  I think this one was added by another user which is why it's slightly different. Happy to remove if necessary. Kosack (talk) 16:41, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

  I would remove the publisher; the FAC requirement is consistency. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:32, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

  Done. Kosack (talk) 19:11, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

• Suggest using "2nd" instead of "2" in the edition field of FN 37. - Added
• What makes fchd.info a reliable source? I have a vague memory of having asked this question at a previous FAC, but can't find it. It looks like a fansite, albeit a remarkably complete one.

  FCHD is widely accepted and used as a reliable source as far as I know, it's been used on numerous FAC and FLC articles. There is a reference at this FAC as to why, it's used by a number of official club and league websites for data gathering. Kosack (talk) 16:41, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

  The 2008 discussion linked from that FAC is good enough for me. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:32, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

• Same question for rsssf.org -- per their home page it is not open membership and there is a controlling board, but I'm not sure if this is evidence of editorial control. Again this seems familar, but I can't find a prior discussion.

  I think this is similar to the above, in that it is used by clubs, leagues and publications as a data gathering site. One of the three main contributors and board members, Karel Stokkermans, for example contributes to other reliable publications [2] and per this article, he was/is employed by Infostrada Sports (now owned by Gracenote) which is a professional sports analytics company. Kosack (talk) 16:41, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

  This seems borderline to me. As far as I can tell from this page, if you apply and are accepted, there's no further editorial oversight of the material you contribute. What would help is evidence that it is treated as reliable by professional news sources and organization within the football world. For example, if you can show that a professional league uses data from rsssf.org directly, that would be a big help; or if a major newspaper quotes it directly. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:32, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

  Found quite a few examples of use, see ESPN, The Guardian, Major League Soccer, Bleacher Report, FourFourTwo magazine. Can provide more uses too if required. Kosack (talk) 19:11, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

  Thanks, that works for me. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:05, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

• FN 84 has typos (from the OCR) preserved in the title.

  I actually don't have access to the British Newspaper Archive right now, I've let my subscription lapse. Are you able to point out what the typos are? Kosack (talk) 16:41, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

  I fixed it. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:32, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

• What makes iffhs.de a reliable source?

  This is the official website of the International Federation of Football History & Statistics. The site seems to have gone a bit and heavy recently but I've archived the original versions now which are a lot better. Kosack (talk) 16:41, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

  I think I'd drop this. Per our own article there's a sports historian and professor who says it's a one-man show, and the main German press agency won't publish their stats. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:32, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

  Removed ref and linked info. Kosack (talk) 19:55, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

I had a look in the archive of The Times to see if there were any references, and discovered his uncle the MP was convicted of receiving stolen goods in 1933, but found nothing about the footballer that you don't already have. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library)

Thanks for reviewing Mike, I've responded to all of your points. Let me know what you think. Kosack (talk) 16:41, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

One more issue:

• FN 149 is marked as being via BNA, but it is not.

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:32, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Fixed. Kosack (talk) 19:55, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Mike ? Gog the Mild (talk) 11:06, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

Pass. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:47, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

Comments by Ian

Recusing coord duties to review... Wasn't that happy with the prose so copyedited a fair bit -- let me know if I've inadertently altered any meaning. Outstanding points:

• Syd Puddefoot later recalled a match against Shettleston in the Scottish Junior Cup in which Ferguson played that had been delayed and risked him missing an appointment. -- perhaps it's the expression but I don't really get the point of this or if it's worth including.
• it was remarked that he displayed a "melancholy demeanour and evident physical suffering" in early January 1930 -- remarked by who?

Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 18:48, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Hi Ian, thanks for taking the time to have a look. Happy with the changes you made, I did make one small alteration. The Puddefoot comment, I think, emphasises the form he was in at the time. He was probably the most in-form player not already playing professionally, and the ease of which he was playing at the time is reinforced by this remark. I've added attribution for the quote also. Thanks. Kosack (talk) 09:55, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Hmm, I don't infer ease of playing from this statement -- does it mean he was so worth watching that people (Puddefoot in this case) were prepared to miss appointments to see him? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 18:02, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

It was Ferguson who had the appointment, perhaps this needs to be made clearer if there's confusion about that? I've reworded slightly to hopefully make that more obvious. Kosack (talk) 21:33, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Glad you clarified because as it stood I honestly thought it was Puddefoot's appointment... ;-) Okay I get it now, this is why in the next sentence Ferg is feigning injury -- the penny drops...! Can I suggest trying to get some eyes on at Peer Review before FAC next time, it might help iron out ahead of time the kind of prose and comprehension issues I've found here. That said, taking Nikki's image review and Mike's source review as read, ready to support now. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 19:17, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Or run it through Wikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors/Requests. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:58, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:04, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.