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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Howie Morenz/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 06:57, 6 July 2009 [1].

Howie Morenz

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Nominator(s): Kaiser matias (talk) 22:38, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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The third article of an NHL player who died during their career, and second Montreal Canadien, I followed the style that I previously used for Georges Vézina. All concerns will be addressed as soon as I can resolve them. Kaiser matias (talk) 22:38, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Provisional oppose
    • "a Canadian professional ice hockey player in the National Hockey League." this seems a bit repetitious. Doesn't National Hockey League imply that he was professional? Also, although I'm unfamiliar with hockey articles, I believe it's conventional in other articles on sports figures to include the position played in the opening sentence. Finally, I think it's clumsy to mention the NHL first and then just a few sentences later the Ontario Hockey Association; I tend to think both of these should go together.
      • Reworded the opening. However, I would say it is better to keep the OHA seperate, as it is a junior, amateur league. I've reworded that part to help clarify.
    • You have Morenz dying at the end of the first paragraph, then you talk more about his life in the beginning of the second. While there's no rule against doing so, I tend to think it would be better if the lead went in something more like a chronological fashion.
      • Combined the two paragraphs into one, and sorted chronologically. However, I think it can be improved, so some comments on that would be appreciated.
    • "in both goals scored and points." Sorry, I'm totally ignorant about hockey. Is there a difference between these two?
    • "Morenz died from complications of a broken leg, an injury he suffered in a game." As a non-specialist reader, this is by far the most interesting point the whole lead to me. Broken legs aren't generally fatal. I think another sentence or so on the nature of the complications might be in order.
    • "Howie Morenz was the son of William Morenz," Any biographical data on the father? Any idea who the mother was?
      • There is, so I've linked both goal and point in the lead.
    • "playing shinny on the Thames River" I'd suggest linking this to Shinny; I had no idea what shinny was before looking it up.
      • Done
    • "After that game, a coach switching Morenz to rover, a defensive position." Should be switched.
      • Fixed
    • "Morenz became a forward after it became apparent his speed was much more suitable for an offensive role.[3] After starting in goal for the 1916–17 season, Howie helped the Mitchell ice hockey team reach the Western Ontario juvenille championship.[3]" The chronology here is confusing. When exactly did he become a forward? Before or after 1916-1917?
      • Reworded so it should be clearer
    • "Howie tried enlisting in the Canadian military, but was refused when it was learned he was only fifteen years old." I think the passive voice here is unnecessary and a little tortured. I'd suggest making this "when recruiters learned" or something like that.
      • Done
    • "He joined the Stratford Midgets junior team" When? Was it for the 1920-1921 season?\
      • Added a date
    • "leading the OHA in assists and points during the regular season" I'd make the fact that this was the Ontario Hockey League more obvious, so as to go better with the lead.
      • Done
    • "After reaching the Memorial Cup, Morenz was asked to play for the Stratford Indians, a senior league team." Does this mean for the next season? Immediately? Also, was it because he had reached the Cup or just because of his general level of play that he was asked to do so?
      • Clarified
    • " During the playoffs, he led both leagues in goals, assists, points, and led the senior league in penalty minutes." Unless I'm mistaken, leading in penalty minutes is a bad thing, right? As such, I think some distinction should be made between leading in the good areas and the bad one.
      • I tried to make some disctinction, but it may not have been enough
    • "he led it for regular season assists" For? Shouldn't this be in?
      • Fixed
    • "At the age of eighteen, Howie got an apprenticeship with the CN railway factory in Stratford." Is there a reason you say Howie here instead of Morenz?
      • Changed to Morenz
    • "CN railway factory" What is CN? Anywhere to link it?
      • Added link
    • "Howie, Jr. was born in 1927, Donald in 1933 and Marlene in 934." Surely this should be 1934?
      • Fixed date
    • " friend of Léo Dandurand, the owner of the Montreal Canadiens of the National Hockey League, refereed the game, and told Dandurand how good Morenz was." Is this meant to be "A friend"?
      • Fixed
    • "However in July," should be "However, in July,"
      • Fixed
    • " Howie Morenz signed a contract with the Canadiens for three years, with a salary of $3,500 per year and a $1,000 signing bonus." Intuitively I get no sense of what this amounts means. Was it a lot?
      • Added context
    • "Immediately after signing the contract with the Canadiens, Morenz began to reconsider joining the Canadiens." This is a bit repetitious perhaps replace the second instance of "Canadiens" with "them"?
      • Fixed
    • "Dandurand, but began crying." The comma here is unnecessary.
      • Fixed
    • "Dandurand told him that if Morenz did not join the Canadiens, his professional hockey career would be over." Was this just a threat or the result of a contractual obligation (i.e., would he not legally have been permitted to play?)
      • Clarified
    • "He made his NHL debut on December 26, 1923 in Ottawa against the Ottawa Senators, scoring a goal against the home team." I think "against the home team" is unneeded.
      • Fixed
    • "in the frist game of the two game, total goals series" I believe this should be "first"
      • Fixed
    • "reached the NHL playofs" should be playoffs
      • Fixed
    • " Howie tied with linemate Aurèle Joliat in leading the Canadiens in scoring in 1925–26 with twenty-six points, finishing fifth in the league. He finished third in the league in goals, with twenty-five, and points, with thirty-two, in 1926–27, to again lead the Canadiens." This is rather confusing. The first three times I read it, I thought I was getting different figures for the same season. I'd recommend placing "1926-1927" before the numbers.
      • Clarified
    • "The one goal he scored in four playoff games eliminated the Montreal Maroons from playoff contention." How so?
      • Clarified
    • "During the 1929–30 season, Morenz finished seventh in the league for scoring with fifty points, including scoring forty goals for the first time" Maybe it's not really relevant to the article, but this seems pretty amazing. In 1928 he was the first player ever to score 50 points, but in 1929-1930 50 points was only seventh in the league? Was there some sort of change to the rules that led to higher scoring?
      • Indeed there was; note added
    • "playoff games, the final goal of the playoffs as he won" you need another comma on the other side of playoffs.
      • Done
    • "also being named to the First All-Star Team again." How was this the first All-Star Team? Wasn't the first one in 1930-1931?
      • I tried to add some clarity to the previous mention of the All-Star Team
    • "passing Cy Denneny for the NHL record holder for career points" I'd say "as" instead of "for".
      • Done
    • "Minor injuries led to his point totals going down the following season" I think it would be much more elegant to say "minor injuries led his point totals to go down". Also, any idea what kind of minor injuries they were?
      • Changed, and no, there is nothing specified. They didn't specify injuries back then, and its amazing enough that it was even recorded he was hurt.
    • "The 1933–34 season also saw Morenz's point total fall" Fall to what level (i.e., how many points)?
      • It was later in the paragraph, but moved up
    • "once again passing Cy Denneny to become the NHL leader for career goals" I take it from this that Denneny was active and had passed Morenz earlier. I think it would be good to say when.
      • Denneny was retired, but held several career scoring records. I've moved the mention of him to clarify
    • "The trade rumours ended on October 3, 1934, when Morenz was traded to the Chicago Black Hawks." So what happened to "when I can't play for them, I'll never put on a skate again."?
      • Added some clarity
    • " The trade rumours ended on October 3, 1934, when Morenz was traded to the Chicago Black Hawks. Along with goaltender Lorne Chabot and defenceman Marty Burke, he was traded for forwads Leroy Goldsworthy and Lionel Conacher, and defenceman Roger Jenkins." I'd merge this all into one sentence
      • done
    • " Morenz was traded for the second time in his career, being sent to the New York Rangers on January 26, 1936, traded for forward Glen Brydson." I'd remove the second instance of traded for better flow.
      • Done
    • "giving him twenty-one poitns" This should be points.
      • Done
    • " landed with full force into Morenz" I've never heard "landed ...into" before. I'd suggest "on".
      • Done
    • "recovering from the injry" should be injury
      • Fixed
    • "His Canadiens teammateswould" should be two words.
      • Fixed
    • "a teammate of his remakred that" should be remarked.
      • Fixed
    • The doctors didn't try to do anything about the heart attack?
      • There is nothing specific in the reference, though I believe it was implied that by the time they realised what happened to him, it was to late to do anything, thus the phonecalls.
    • "The next day, March 9, the Montreal newspapers announced his death." So did the other newspapers, I can find a New York TImes story on that day about it.
      • True enough; removed that sentence
    • "two minutes silence was observed" I think this would read much better as "two minutes of silence were observed"
      • Done
    • "A funeral was held on March 10, 1937 at Montreal Forum" Is there a reason this isn't "the Montreal Forum"?
      • Done
    • " A team composed of player" should be players.
      • Fixed
    • "Morenz also had a profound impact on growing the NHL, his exciting play helping bring professional hockey to the United States." Comma splice. Either split into two sentence or replace the comma with a semicolon.
      • Modified slightly, it should work now
    • "During the 1924 Stanley Cup Final between Montreal and Calgary, Morenz's first season in the NHL, Charles Adams, the owner of a chain of grocery stores, went back to Boston wanting a hockey team based in the city. That summer, the NHL granted Adams a franchise for the following season, the Boston Bruins." Was this is any way directly connected to Morenz?
      • Added why it was worth while
    • In the "Career statistics", it's driving me nuts that the second two columns are taller than the first. Is there something meaningful you could put there other than whitespace?
      • Don't quite understand what you mean here. If you're referring to the space between the table, then no, there isn't really anything that can be put there. The table has been used for every other ice hockey article, both FA and not, and this is the first time anything has been said about it.
  • A great article, I look forward to supporting in the future, but there are frequent spelling and grammar problems throughout. I'd recommend running the article through a spellchecker and reading it through a few times in segments to spot the grammar and spelling problems that I didnt' catch. Cool3 (talk) 04:28, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Thanks for the thorough review. I'm terrible at reviewing articles myself, particularily ones I've put considerable amounts of work into, so it's nice to have someone, especially someone clueless about hockey (which is nearly everyone), to do so. Kaiser matias (talk) 22:47, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The publisher's the Hockey Hall of Fame, so it's very reliable (except for their knowledge on copyright, but that's another story). Maxim(talk) 17:39, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Like Maxim said, the site is the Hockey Hall of Fame's website, and has been through probably every hockey article to come through the FA nomination process. Kaiser matias (talk) 22:47, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments – Still needs work on the prose. All but one of these are from the lead and first section of the body.

  • "Morenz consistently finished in near the top of league scoring". Remove "in".
    • Done
  • "Three times in his career Morenz was named the most valuable player of the league and led the league in goals scored once and total points scored twice." → "Three times in his career Morenz was named the most valuable player of the league, and he led the league in goals scored once and points scored twice."
    • Done
  • Early life: "After starting in goal for the 1916–17 season, Howie tried enlisting in the Canadian military". Why is his first name being used here? It's informal when used in this fashion. There's no risk of confusing him with family members of the same name, like in a couple of instances later in the section.
    • Changed name to Morenz
  • Is "juvenille" British English?
    • Possibly. It was part of an ill-fated attempt to use Microsoft Word for spelling corrections. It was a bad idea.
  • Remove comma from "in May, 1917."?
    • Done
  • A period is missing from the middle of the second paragraph of the section (Morenz joining the Stratford Indians).
    • Fixed
  • I'm pretty sure 1970's should be 1970s.
    • Done
  • Multiple links for the Canadian National Railway company are unnecessary this close together.
    • Removed second second link
  • Saw this on a glance at the later part of the article: "though the Canadiens' management knew he was to passionate about hockey to quit."
    • Don't quite know what your trying to say here.
      • Read it again: "he was to passionate". Notice anything? :-)

Giants2008 (17-14) 00:30, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

    • Addressed all your concerns. Kaiser matias (talk) 03:32, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • "held December, 1922 in Montreal". → "held in December 1922 in Montreal"? Basically, anytime there's a comma between a month and year like this, check to see whether it should be in there or not. Note that any like "July 7, 1923" are fine.
        • Fixed
      • "Howie Morenz signed a contract with the Canadiens...". Another unneeded first name.
        • Removed
      • Montreal Canadiens: "They defeated the Vancouver Maroons of the Pacific Coast Hockey Association in two games of a best of five games series". Huh? According to 1923–24 NHL season, it was a best-of-three series.
      • "with Morenz scoring a hat trick." This is a type of awkward sentence I see often, using "with" as a connector. Try "as Morenz scored a hat trick."
        • Changed the sentence around, so Morenz scoring is before the score.
      • "Minor injuries led his point totals going down the following season". I believe this is meant to say "led to his point totals going down the following season".
        • Fixed
      • "With Morenz not playing to his previous level". This is similar to one of the earlier comments, as this uses a with + -ing structure.
        • Fixed
      • "I'll never put on a skate again.," Picky, but I think there is too much punctuation here.
        • Fixed
      • Chicago, New York and Montreal: "with Morenz contributing regularly" is another sentence that needs a structural fix.
        • Changed
      • "in which hs scored fifteen points". Typo. Might as well mention it while I'm here.
        • Changed
      • "occasionally showing the speed that had made notable at the start of his career." "him" is

missing.

        • Fixed

Giants2008 (17-14) 01:27, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

        • Addressed more of your concerns. Kaiser matias (talk) 20:56, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • "By mid-January, Morenz had four goals and twenty-points". Remove second hyphen.
            • Fixed
          • "with his left skate being caught in the wooden siding" is another awkward sentence structure.
            • Fixed
          • "with the New York Rangers and New York Americans observing a moment of silence" is one more.
          • "with his exciting play helping bring professional hockey to the United States." And one more.
            • Fixed
          • "Bernie Geoffrion, who also played for the Canadiens and Rangers, and later inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame." Needs "was" before "inducted".
            • Fixed

Giants2008 (17-14) 00:14, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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