Wikipedia

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Horseshoe bat/archive1

< Wikipedia:Featured article candidates
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ealdgyth via FACBot (talk) 17 August 2020 [1].

Horseshoe bat

edit
Nominator(s): Enwebb (talk) 19:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a family of bats that have been quite relevant in the news lately as the possible origin of SARS-CoV. They have a lot of diversity and some strange features, even for bats (pubic nipples!) Enwebb (talk) 19:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by Sainsf

edit

This is a placeholder for now, I will add all my comments next week. I find the article really interesting and beautiful after reading a few paragraphs here and there. Thank you for your work on this important topic :) Sainsf (t · c) 10:09, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Okay this is my first set of comments, will add more as we move forward:

  • There are quite a few duplicate links, you can find them using this script. Link the terms only on their first mention (unless it is a link in the cladogram or captions).
  • closely related to the Hipposideridae It may be helpful to mention the common name of this family of bats for a lay-reader, as you do for Hipposideros later.
  • combined head and body lengths isn't "combined" redundant when you say head and body length?
    • I think the distinction is that it's lengths, not length, implying two separate measurements are being added together. I've rephrased. Enwebb (talk) 18:03, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Looks good. Remember to fix the mention in the body as well ("Individuals have a head and body length") Sainsf (t · c) 11:25, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • What I was trying to convey earlier is that I don't think it's inaccurate to say "combined head and body lengths" (there are two lengths added together) and also "individuals have a head and body length". Is the meaning unclear when I say individuals have a head and body length of x? I feel that's pretty straight-forward. Enwebb (talk) 01:55, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • You can link subgenera, biogeography, taxonomy, Old World, subtropical, echolocation, polygynous, and gestation in the lead (and on the first mention of these terms in the main body). Just terms that I think might not be common in a common person's life. And maybe link Southeast Asia as well if you are linking another geographical region like Sub Saharan Africa.
  • Fur can be reddish-brown...smooth fur "fur" is repeated in this line, maybe we can say "The fur, long and smooth in most species, can be reddish-brown, blackish, or bright orange-red".
  • What exactly is a "high-duty call"?
  • A minor quibble.. you can be consistent in whether you include a brief introduction for people. For example, Gray and several others are not introduced like Lacépède ("French naturalist") and Bell.
  • In Taxonomic history link superfamily and maybe Oriental as well. Any link or short explanation for "species group"?
  • The most recent common ancestor of Rhinolophus You may want to add "most recent" to the mention in the lead.
  • In Evolutionary history link geological time periods like Eocene, R. nippon and maybe Afrotropics. "Sister" can be linked to sister taxon. No link for nuclear DNA?
  • were more closely related to African species Why "were"? These species are still around.

Moving on (note the underlined point above which might have escaped your notice), Sainsf (t · c) 11:25, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Link genetic divergence in Evolutionary history
  • represented by one species, Palaeonycteris robustus.[14] Palaeonycteris robustus On the second mention of the species you can just say P. robustus
    • In my academic experience, you don't start a sentence with a genus abbreviation, which is echoed here "With scientific names, it is common to abbreviate the genus to its first letter after the first mention so long as only one genus is being represented (Aspergillus niger at first mention and A. niger thereafter, for example). However, it is better to spell out the genus in full at the beginning of a sentence". Enwebb (talk) 03:08, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • ranging from 35–110 mm "35 to 110"
  • bright orange-red dorsal fur 'Dorsal' may be tough to understand for lay readers, maybe something like underfur works? Or a link would be helpful. Similarly for "anterior" in "anterior portion of the nose-leaf", "rostral" in "rostral inflations".
  • In Description link mammary gland, premolar, canine teeth, echolocate, digit, cartilaginous. You can add a lot of helpful links in the line "Several bones in their thoraxes are fused—the presternum, first rib, partial second rib, seventh cervical vertebra, first thoracic vertebra". Link nose-lead in the caption
  • As you will link echolocate in the previous section, omit the link in "they use echolocation to navigate"
  • Say either "high duty" or "high-duty"
  • embryonic development, meaning that growth of the embryo Link embryo in "embryonic" only
  • if the female enters torpor It would be good to add a few words on torpor as this behavior is not covered in the article anywhere, but seems significant enough to have a short description.
  • Individuals hunt solitarily.[17] Because its hind limbs are poorly developed, If the earlier line refers to the bats in plural, the next line should say "their" not "its"
  • In Biology and ecology you can link frequency modulated, second harmonic, first harmonic, uropatagia, diurnal avian predator (each of these words can be linked), temperate, torpor, sociality
  • In Range and habitat link hibernate

I will add my comments on the last section in a few days. Cheers, Sainsf (t · c) 11:25, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Hill's horseshoe bat" is a disambig link
  • Scientific name for Ruwenzori horseshoe bat like the others in the sentence?
  • Other than this I think everything is perfect in the prose. You may wish to add a link to the Wikispecies entry (if any) or some external links if you wish but none of it is necessary.

That is all from me. Once again, marvelous work! Respond whenever you are free. Cheers and stay safe, Sainsf (t · c) 13:25, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, all the points I made have been addressed properly. I am confident the prose meets FA standards. Supporting :) (forgot to state this earlier.. I will be listing this in my WikiCup submissions) Sainsf (t · c) 15:59, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Chiswick Chap

edit

Since I reviewed the article at GA, the principal changes have been in citation formatting. I believe the article gives an excellent overview of the family, its ecology, and its relationships to humans including its hosting of coronaviruses. I therefore have little to add just now, though the cladogram could include a cropped photograph of Craseonycteridae, and it might be helpful to pop in a sublabel below Yangochiroptera saying "(most microbats)". Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:40, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for finally giving me the motivation to hunt down a good picture of the Kitti's hog-nosed bat. I've never been happy with the sparse media files we've had for it, and we now finally have a real photograph! I added in the sublabel you suggested. Thanks, Enwebb (talk) 22:31, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent, many thanks. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:19, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

edit
  • Suggest scaling up the maxilla image
  • Suggest adding alt text
  • File:Palaeonycteris_robustus.png: what is the author's date of death? Same with File:Rhinonicteris_aurantia.jpg, File:Rhinolophidae_vs_molossidae.png. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:44, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Palaeonycteris_robustus.png: the illustrator of the specific plate is not stated (I don't think, at least, but I don't read French), but the authors of Annales des sciences geologiques were Edmond Hébert (d. 1890) and Alphonse Milne-Edwards (d. 1900)
  • Rhinonicteris aurantia.jpg: this came from Catalogue of the Chiroptera in the Collection of the British Museum (1878), author George Edward Dobson (d. 1895)
  • Rhinolophidae_vs_molossidae.png: is an amalgamation of two images. The illustrator of the top image was Philibert Charles Berjeau (d. 1927). The name on the plate for the bottom image is "Bruch". I would guess Carl Friedrich Bruch (d. 1857) was the illustrator; his older brother Philipp Bruch (d. 1847) was also a scientist, but studied mosses, not animals

Support from Gog the Mild

edit

Nb: it is my intention to claim points for this review in the WikiCup.

  • "Internally, the horseshoe bats are divided into six subgenera and many species groups." I am not sure that "Internally" adds anything here.
  • "it is unclear where the geographic roots of the family are, and attempts to determine the biogeography of the family have been indecisive" 1. Is it possible to avoid having "family" twice in one sentence? 2. Optional: "indecisive" → 'inconclusive'.
  • "as well as species recognized as distinct that may, in fact" Delete "in fact"; a reader will nor assume that what you have written is not factual.
  • "high-duty calls". 1. Link to Duty cycle. 2. Consider changing to 'calls at high duty cycles'.
  • "as a source of disease and as food and traditional medicine" → 'as a source of disease, as food and as traditional medicine'.
  • "Sub-Saharan Africa" → 'sub-Saharan Africa'.
    • fixed
Still an instance of "Sub-". I have changed it.

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:24, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild (talk) 22:41, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nice work. Supporting. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:33, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Quick comment from Therapyisgood

edit

Doing a quick search through the article, I am surprised the word "flea" or the word "ectoparasite" is not mentioned at least once. From my work on the Hectopsylla genus I am aware fleas often inhabit bats as a host. Though I am also not that familiar with editing articles on topics where every bit of knowledge isn't included. Can you comment on this? Is there any published material on their parasites? Therapyisgood (talk) 00:09, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Enwebb: I am curious if you are still actively pursuing this nom. Therapyisgood (talk) 18:57, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Therapyisgood thank you for your points! I had a major disruption IRL and will get back to this in earnest this upcoming week, including adding a section about parasites. Enwebb (talk) 19:10, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Some additional comments from Therapyisgood
edit

I don't have the time to do a full review or anywhere near (which would be nice), but a quick readthrough gives me the impression something more should be mentioned on the species in Palaeonycteris discovered in France. At least a half-sentence more on its wingspan, anything really, how it was classified in the Horshoebat family, what that was based on, etc. It's prominent in the lead. Therapyisgood (talk) 03:47, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I can create a stub or something for Palaeonycteris but really almost nothing is known about it. I wouldn't call it prominent in the lead, I just mention that it exists. Enwebb (talk) 04:15, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Jens Lallensack

edit
  • I wonder why the lemma is the family rather than the genus?
  • Maybe mention the number of species in the lead?
  • or bright orange-red – dot missing
  • The nose-leafs aid in echolocation; horseshoe bats have highly sophisticated echolocation – maybe combine to "which is highly sophisticated in horseshoe bats" as it reads a bit rough.
  • Verspertilionidae – typo?
    • Thank you, fixed
  • Csorba et al. in 2003 – would write "and colleagues" to avoid the very technical term.
  • Skull of the greater horseshoe bat, showing the prominent rostral inflations on the snout – do we need the "rostral"? They do not seem far rostral on the snout anyways judging from the picture?
  • The anterior portion of the nose-leaf – "front portion" to keep it simple?
  • The sella usually has less hair than the lancet or the nose-leaf. – but it was just stated that the sella is part of the nose leaf?
  • The nose-leafs are important in species identification, and are composed of several parts. The lancet is triangular, pointed, and pocketed, and points up between the bats' eyes. The sella is a flat, ridge-like structure at the center of the nose, rising from behind the nostrils, that points out perpendicular from the head. – This leaves me wonder, which part does the horseshoe belong to, or was this part forgotten?
  • Instead, they use echolocation to navigate. Horseshoe bats have some of the most sophisticated echolocation of any bat group. – Maybe combine these two sentences into a single one since it reads a bit choppy.
  • The wingspans are typical for their body sizes, and their aspect ratios, which relate wingspan to wing area, are average or lower than average. – Do you compare with bats in general here? Not clear.
  • Rhinolophus sedulus, however, is a rare species of bat that is believed to be monogamous – you mean "is amongst the rare species of bat that are believed to be monogamous", or is it really a rare/endangered species?
  • In hibernating species, the sperm storage timing coincides with hibernation – you mean the fertilization timing?
  • Because its hind limbs are poorly developed, it cannot scuttle on flat surfaces nor climb adeptly like other bats. – in other parts of the article "their" was used.
  • for SARS-related coronaviruses (testing positive for antibodies associated with it) – "with them"?
  • The Newar people of Nepal "almost certainly" – is this a citation? Maybe just use "probably"? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 21:46, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support --Jens Lallensack (talk) 06:29, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note

edit

Looks like this needs an image and source review? --Ealdgyth (talk) 15:08, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ealdgyth See above for image review. Enwebb (talk) 19:18, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Nikkimaria: how is the source review looking? --Ealdgyth (talk) 14:00, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Still an open question wrt FN56, and I've posted a request for input at WPMED for the COVID-19 material. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:47, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nikki, Enwebb, are we further forward with what I understand to be these last outstanding points? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:01, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
FN56 is fine; see WPMED for discussion of the MEDRS question. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:08, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria: Where do we stand on this? --Ealdgyth (talk) 13:51, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The MED discussion has been archived; the only opinion provided was "The sources are rather old by MEDRS standards and reasonably good secondary sources, if not necessarily the highest quality. As the claims are not exceptional as in WP:REDFLAG, my inclination would be to accept them as sufficient quality, but someone with expertise in infectious diseases (i.e. not me) might disagree with my assessment." This was the only pending issue. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:28, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Horseshoe_bat/archive1&oldid=973571032"