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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Hoodening/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 11:05, 12 June 2018 [1].

Hoodening

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Nominator(s): Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:37, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a Kentish folk custom performed at Christmas time during the nineteenth century. It involved a troupe of young men dressing up, one of them as the "hooden horse" in a hobby horse costume, and knocking at people's doors, prancing around and requesting payment. The original custom died out in the early twentieth century, although hooden horses have since been incorporated into newly devised forms of Kentish folk culture, such as various Kentish May Day parades and Morris dances. It has been GA rated for some time now and I believe meets the FA criteria; it would be nice if it could join the Dorset Ooser article as an FA. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:37, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Captions that are in complete sentences should end in periods

Source review

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All sources evidently meet the criteria for quality, reliability and verifiability. The citation method is consistent. Satisfactory on all counts. (Some ISBNs are hyphenated and some are not, which would drive me potty if it were my FAC, but consistency in this respect is not an MoS requirement.) – Tim riley talk 10:00, 29 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

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That's all from me. I look forward to adding my support when I look in again. – Tim riley talk 10:00, 29 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from JM

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Really interesting stuff. I was talking about this tradition just last weekend with some friends...

  • Done, and I've also linked some of the names in this list which were otherwise only linked at a later mention in the article (and removed the duplinks that resulted from this course of action). Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:17, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "contradicting this was a number of letters" were?
Walking into a linguistic minefield here, I think, Josh. Like you, I'd write "a number of thingummies were", but logically a singular number takes a singular verb. And where does one draw the line? A collection of thingummies was or were? With the utmost pusillanimity I always pass over "a number were/was" when I'm reviewing. The current edition of Fowler has this to say:
number, as a noun of multitude in the structure 'a number of' + pl. noun, normally governs a plural verb in both BrE and AmE because the plural noun is regarded as the 'head' of the noun phrase and therefore as the real subject.
This supports your practice (and mine) but note that Fowler says "normally" and is not prescriptive about it; I wouldn't censure the singular verb here. Tim riley talk 16:46, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for this; very useful! Josh Milburn (talk) 14:49, 5 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Supreme Court" Wikilink?
  • "Percy Maylam was born into a farming family in 1865 at Pivington Farm in Pluckley, and in 1890 became a solicitor of the Supreme Court before working as a professional solicitor at Canterbury.[49] Married to Kate Pearch, who had been born in Hastings, together they had two sons, Robert and James.[49] Outside of his professional life, Maylam was a keen cricketer, coin collector, and amateur historian, and in 1892 joined the Kent Archaeological Society.[49]" I'm not sure this belongs in the article. You could put together an article on Maylem, but I don't think his background is actually necessary. You could open the next paragraph with something like "During the 1880s, Henry Maylam [dash] a solicitor and amateur historian who was a member of the Kent Archaeological Society [dash] came". A long footnote is another possibility.
    • I doubt that Maylam is significant enough for an article all of his own. For notability purposes, he is significant for writing the book on hoodening, and that's about it. I could push the information into a long note, but I'm not convinced if this is the best way to deal with it. Do any other editors have a view on this? Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:21, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've trimmed down this paragraph quite considerably and merged it with some sentences from the following paragraph. I feel that that probably deals with the situation, but do let me know what you think. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:04, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and Fran and Geoff Doel as "a very enlightened piece of Edwardian folk research"." Are you missing some words, here?
  • "In later life, Maylam focused his attentions on exploring his family history, privately publishing Maylam Family Records in 1932, before dying in 1939.[49]" Probably not needed- again, this isn't an article about Maylam, though you could surely write one.
  • It's not essential information, certainly. But given how central Maylam is to the preservation and promotion of knowledge about hoodening, I think that some readers might find it to be of passing interest. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:20, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is "Handbell Ringers" a proper noun? I am not keen on the rather cryptic link, not least because handbell has already been linked in the article.
    • In this case it is a proper noun as it is the name of a specific group; however, there could also be "handbell ringers" in the broader sense of the term who are not members of the group. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:19, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • Ok; if you're referring to a particular group's name, though, there probably shouldn't be any links other than a link to the article on the group (if any). Consider: "Manchester United" would be an odd way to refer to the football team! Josh Milburn (talk) 14:49, 5 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • The descriptions of Field and Rigby are a little lengthy; again, a footnote would be a possibility.
  • I wonder whether a better picture or two could be found to illustrate the final section. A picture of one of the pubs named after the tradition or or one of the currently used horses would be great. There are some pictures of a Morris troupe with a "Mollie" in Commons:Category:Broadstairs Folk Week, but I don't think any of them have a horse. File:Hooden Horses at the Clock Tower (geograph 5502334).jpg, though, does have some contemporary hooden horses in the festival! Maybe that would be preferable to the church image.

That's what jumps out from a first read-through. Very interesting article. Josh Milburn (talk) 11:39, 29 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for offering your thoughts, Josh! Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:01, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support. If I was being critical, I might say that we could do with more about the contemporary use of hooden horses, but I've no doubt that your approach mirrors that of the academic literature. Josh Milburn (talk) 16:07, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I definitely agree that it would be great to have more on the contemporary uses, but unfortunately that research just doesn't seem to have been carried out thus far. In part, that may be part due to the rather sorry state of British folkloristics, which lacks the institutionalised framework that we see in both the United States and parts of continental Europe. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:47, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support Edwininlondon

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I love unusual topics, so thanks for bringing it here. A few comments so far:

  • This approach, however, -> is idea not a better choice of word than approach? I assume you don't want to use theory as the suggestion does not come from academics?
  • "a well populated area" -> why the quotes?
  • The idea of what is well populated and what is not is perhaps subjective; sociologists and human geographers may have specific criteria. Thus, I thought the safe bet was to make clear that this is a term that Cawte has used rather than putting it in 'Wikipedia voice'. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:38, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • the areas in which the tradition were found -> was found
  • late medieval -> inconsistent with capitalisation of Early Medieval used before (not that I know what is better, but consistency is required)
  • Both the upper case and lower case are acceptable, but you're right, consistency is required. I've gone with lower case throughout the article, but won't object is someone wishes to convert them all to upper case. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:46, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • some Medieval Morris -> medieval?
  • The first printed reference -> when was this?
  • but which been discontinued in the 1860s -> is this grammatically correct? Looks odd to me as non-native speaker
  • at least the least -> ?

More later. Edwininlondon (talk) 06:25, 5 May 2018 (UTC) Not much more to add actually. Just this:[reply]

  • Married to Kate Pearch, who had been born in Hastings, together they had two sons, Robert and James-> not sure if we need this extra detail, I'm not convinced it is relevant. It's a different story for Barnett Field, because his wife is part of the revival story.

Much to my surprise did I bump into a hooden horse today at the May Day festivities in Whitstable. I took a photo and have included it on my talk page: User_talk:Edwininlondon#Hooden_horse Edwininlondon (talk) 20:59, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What a great photo! I don't think that it could be counted as a hooden horse per se, but it's definitely interesting to see. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:52, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for your thoughts, Edwininlondon. I'm glad that you found the article to be of some interest and I hope that you enjoyed your time in Whitstable. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:12, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Midnightblueowl. I support on prose. I think this would make a great article on the home page. Edwininlondon (talk) 05:11, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Update: We're a few days away from this having been open for a month. There are three statements of support and none of opposition. All issues raised appear to have been taken care of. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:15, 25 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments and support from Brianboulton

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A fascinating article which I ought to have picked up sooner. I read it with great interest, and picked up a few minor prose issue on the way. Don't feel you have to adopt all of them, but take a look:

  • The phrase "modern Kentish folk traditions" is a little odd, as traditions are by definition long-standing, so there's a hint of an oxymoron. Perhaps replace "traditions" with "customs"?
  • I disagree to some extent here. The first issue I would raise is that traditions can be comparatively recent (hence Eric Hobsbawm's idea of the "invented tradition") while presenting themselves as being connected to the past. The other is that the folk traditions in question get repeated every year (May Day Morris dances and such like), while still having "modern" (i.e. 20th or 21st century origins). For those reasons, I think the present wording is best, although would be happy to discuss further if you like. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:27, 5 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Surviving sources testify to the fact that while there was clear variation in the hoodening tradition as it was practiced by different individuals in different parts of East Kent, it was nevertheless "on the whole remarkably uniform". The sentence seems to be contradicting itself; can there be "clear variations" in a tradition that is at the same time "remarkably uniform"? I'd consider replacing "clear" with "some".
  • "As part of the hoodening custom, a team of "hoodeners", consisting of between four and eight men, would carry the horse through the streets. This team included the horse with a "hoodener"..." There's quite a bit of repetition here (hoodening, hoodeners, hoodener). Suggest amend the start of the second sentence to "This team included the horse operater, the Groom..." etc.
  • "They performed...": paragraphs should not begin with pronouns, thus "The team performed..."
  • "the Mollie swept the floor with their broom..." – I'd make that "a broom" to avoid the awkward gender-inspecific pronoun
  • "at this point" seems to be a redundant phrase.
  • I'm not sure that "Regional restrictions" is the most appropriate section heading, as the section is mainly concerned with variations of the tradition rather than restrictions
  • I don't see any reason for encircling the word "ignored" with quotes.
  • I wanted to reflect that this was Maylam's own choice of words, given that the term is a little emotionally loaded, perhaps. The quote marks are probably not entirely necessary, certainly, but if we removed them then some might think the term "ignored" was too loaded for Wikipedia. Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:55, 5 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Ultimately, he stated that..." – I'd delete "ultimately" as I'm sure he said later things. Perhaps "He concluded that..."?
  • "an anonymous individual who was describing their encounter" – for reasons stated above I'd prefer "an encounter"
  • "However, contradicting this was a number of letters..." I think that's a "were"
  • "a man named Robert Laming who lead the horse itself" – should be "led"
  • Another "ultimately" in "Ultimately, Maylam believed..."
  • "republished under the altered title of The Kent Hooden Horse in 2009 by The History Press." suggest tweak to "republished in 1909 by The History Press, under the altered title of The Kent Hooden Horse."
  • Morris' is an AmEng construction. In BritEng we'd say "Morris's"
  • "had been born" → "was born"
  • "while the vicar bridled the horse itself" – can you clarify?
  • Unnecessary quotes around "due largely".

Excellent and unusual. Brianboulton (talk) 22:41, 4 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Brianboulton: many thanks for taking the time to read through this article and for offering your thoughts. It's appreciated. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:45, 5 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Don't mention it. Other than the changes you've made, I see no need to do anything further. Brianboulton (talk) 19:54, 5 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment: This looks about ready but I'm finding minor MoS issues and there seems to be a mixture of inconsistent dash usage throughout, including at least one em dash incorrectly used to express a page range. Please go through the article and polish these items up. -- Laser brain (talk) 15:55, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Laser brain; I have gone through the article and think that I have dealt with every instance of inconsistency in the dashes. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:51, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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