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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Hermann Detzner/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 21:07, 27 September 2009 [1].

Hermann Detzner edit

Nominator(s): Auntieruth55 (talk) 18:22, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Toolbox

I am nominating this for featured article because...the article meets the requirement for Featured Article status: it is well written and well researched, meets style guides, generally and specifically covers the subject, is properly cited and documented, etc. Although it is relatively short, Hermann Detzner has not been the subject of a specific biography; rather, he is a shadowy and enigmatic figure on the edges of other peoples' biographies and research in Papua New Guinea. This article started as a translated stub from the German wiki, and I expanded it over time. After the article received "Good Article" promotion, it had a peer review from the Military History project, and then passed the A class review with few comments or changes. Thanks for reading! Also, using the tool box, I have checked alt-text (there is alt text for every image), there are no dabs, the external links all work. I am the primary editor. Auntieruth55 (talk) 18:22, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Alt text is present (thanks), but has a couple of problems:

okay, I wasn't sure what to do about that. I've left in the section that says "simple outline map of the island" and added the note bout the caption.
  • For File:Canibal cover.jpg the alt text says "book cover showing 'the skirted ones'" but the book cover doesn't say "the skirted ones". Please just transcribe the German text as per WP:ALT#Text.
translated title of book, and described the man better, clarified why he is the skirted one. Auntieruth55 (talk) 20:16, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Eubulides (talk) 19:27, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I tweaked it a bit more as per WP:ALT. That should do it. Eubulides (talk) 23:50, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image check:
    • File:Hermann Detzner.jpg does not have a proper source ("book cover" is a description; we need to know where the image was found).
  • I posted a url on the image page.
  • I posted a url on the image page. Again, Spiegel online, and it is marked as PD by the German websitge.

it is a version of [File:Papua Neuguinea.jpg this] in Wikicommons.

  • first, anything that is colonial German for Papua New Guinea must be pre 1923, because the protectorate ended in 1914/1918 (de facto in 1914, officially in 1918). The url is from German post card of Papua New Guinea It is marked as PD (public domain) in the spiegel online website.
  • That's all I can see for now. Stifle (talk) 20:57, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I hope that answers all the questions. I took out the relief map until that problem is cleared up. I thought it was freely available, since it was in wiki commons. Auntieruth55 (talk) 01:38, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK, that seems fine to me. I have no further objections to the images — image check OK. Stifle (talk) 09:10, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
great! thanks for helping me sort those out (or directing me to do so). I've added the relief map back in. Someone might want to make sure the alt text is okay!. Auntieruth55 (talk) 16:56, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
btw, does this mean you have no objections to the article itself? so you support it? Auntieruth55 (talk) 16:57, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am only saying that FA criterion 3 is passed, no more and no less. Stifle (talk) 20:03, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments -
  • Current ref 23 (Report of the swiss official...) lacks a publisher.
What's the status on this one? Ealdgyth - Talk 12:49, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
this was simply an index of mountain elevations. The Source is US National Imagery and Mapping Agency
I'll leave this one out for other reviewers to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:06, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
this document probably has no print publisher, but is in an archive, it is certainly in a digital archive (which is where I got it), so it is published digitally, and I gave the link where it is located. The Swiss Consul wrote a letter reporting on the state of the German POWs in the camp in Holdsworthy. Basically it is included because some of the Aussies who reviewed this earlier kept telling me it was HOLSWORTHY, not Holdsworthy. with the D is is an older spelling. it is an online index of transcribed documents relating to world war one, on the Brigham Young University server. It is simply a transcribed document, it is not an article, so I'm not relying on it being a decent article, just a decent transcription.

"This World War I Primary Document Archive is affiliated with the Great War Primary Document Archive, Inc. (GWPDA), relying on GWPDA for the hosting of categories VI and VII, and on the WWW Virtual Library for category VIII. However, the remaining files comprising this archive on the BYU Server are under the aegis of Brigham Young University and Richard Hacken."

"The Medical Front WWI is maintained by George Laughead Jr., manager of the United States History Index and Kansas History. Thanks to Dr.Lynn H. Nelson, Professor of History Emeritus, University of Kansas. Hosted at wwwVirtual Libraries @ www.vlib.us."

I'll leave this one out for other reviewers to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:06, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've changed the citation to a less (possibly?) controversial source. In the Australian national archives catalog, there is a reference to a book that identifies the prison as "HOldsworthy" and gives a brief history of it. I've added that source, and removed the other one. Again, this is simply for the Aussies who want to insist that the town is called Holsworthy, which it is, but in 1919, it was called HolDsworthy. Auntieruth55 (talk) 20:02, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Also in the same archive is this, the report of the Swiss consul in charge of German interests in Australia, a digital copy of the original document. Auntieruth55 (talk) 20:05, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
done on the one you mentioned. I thought I had them all. Should I use the de icon when the citation repeats? or just the first time?
I'd do them every time you mention it, don't need to for the short Author, page number stuff though. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:06, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
oksy, the icon is there for all sources the first time they are mentioned as citations and again in bib, but not on the shortened citations.
some strangeness is going on with the info box template.
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Note that I only reviewed the English language sources. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:22, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments by MisterBee1966
  • Please check Praktisch der Zahnersatzkunde, (Practice of the Dental Arts,): Zahnersatz means dentures and the grammatically the German title seems wrong.
  • Hmm, shouldn't the German title now be something like Praktische Anwendungen der Zahnersatzkunde. Note: I have no clue what book he published but the German title doesn't make sense to me. MisterBee1966 (talk) 21:45, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
thanks, I found a different citation for it that has the full and correct name, AND is in English. :) see the article. Auntieruth55 (talk) 00:10, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Good now it makes sense to me, shouldn't it be listed in the section "Detzner's works"? MisterBee1966 (talk) 13:53, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • except his father wrote it, not Hermann Detzner.
  • I feel that the reader could get more guidance on who wrote the book.
  • It seems to be common practice to only list his last rank in the info box of the article. Also common practice is to put German rank names in italics. MisterBee1966 (talk) 13:56, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • will do.
  • Schmargendorf: Schmargendorf can be a district of Berlin or a district of Angermünde, which is also fairly close to Berlin. Which one is correct? MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:03, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • the address book says Schmargendorf. The archive was in Berlin or Potsdam (depending on which part) (in the 20s). Auguste Viktoria Strasse runs straight through Schmargendorf (it did in 1908 and it does today) (near the football stadium today), and I didn't find a street by that name (today, at least) in Angermuende. Auntieruth55 (talk) 16:40, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Schmargendorf of Berlin was absorbed into Berlin in 1920s. So we probably can assume that he lived in what is now part of greater Berlin MisterBee1966 (talk) 05:56, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • that seems reasonable to me. I removed "near" and wikilinked Berlin. Auntieruth55 (talk) 14:18, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question: I assume the section "Family" is all we know about potential brothers, sisters, wife, children and his mother?
  • I have some additional information, and it was apparently a largish family, but this is not found in any published sources, and it's probably in the category of unverifiable. I've included what is verifiable. Auntieruth55 (talk) 17:15, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question regarding the inaccuracies in the 1909 joint survey: where these inaccuracies favoring the British or the German claim on the land?

Otherwise I support this article MisterBee1966 (talk) 02:40, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Giving a yes vote in support of article which I read twice; however, because of the busy-ness in my life right now, I cannot leave a lengthy comment. Hope this suffices, mit viel Glück, Frania W. (talk) 20:51, 18 September 2009 (UTC) P.S. Auntie Ruth, if I am voting at the wrong place, please put right link at my talk page. FW[reply]

Comments Support I have read the article, and while I cannot support yet, the problems are not so bad that I oppose. I have attached comments below for your consideration.

  • "could be expected to understand the ins and outs of the previous commission" - firstly, I'm not certain which "previous commission" you are referring to, and secondly "ins and outs" is a bit colloquial. Is there a clearer way to phrase this?
  • I clarified it.
  • "in a setting filled with flowers, he later wrote" - I know what is meant, but this is a bit awkward, can you rephrase, preferably with a quote?
  • no quote...but I paraphrased it better.
  • "Detzner and his men would scurry into the mountainous Saruwaged" - scurry is a slightly odd way to put this (almost POV). Perhaps "retreat" instead?
  • sure, retreat works, but the Australians said he scurried. They were not happy with him.
  • "one thing he had learned on this journey was the Australians had orders to shoot him on sight" - I'd like to see a citation specifically for this sentence that isn't referenced to Detzner himself, as this sounds a bit of an exaggeration.
  • It is in Robert Link's study.
  • "To satisfy the curious," - an unusual turn of phrase, and a bit redundant. Can this be removed?
  • yes, but I think it adds to the controversy later. In part, it appears that the insatiable public appetite (the unusual circumstances in Germany to which he refers in his resignation) encouraged him to write the book.
In that case if you wish to keep it in, can you phrase it a little more clearly?--Jackyd101 (talk) 11:24, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I took it out.
  • done
  • "many of his notebooks and journals had been destroyed by the Australians" - is this true, or was it a claim he himself made that cannot be substantiated?
  • this was a claim made in Science Digest, a newsletter that described his speech in Berlin.
  • Can you briefly explain in the text where this claim comes from?--Jackyd101 (talk) 11:24, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • actually it's probably true. There are some suggestions, for example, in the 1919 letter to the Argus newspaper that he had been forced to jettison various articles in his flight from the Australians. I've clarified that text a little more. See if this helps.
  • I don't think the Japanese "See also" adds to the article and it can probably be removed if it can't be incorporated into the text.
  • not sure it will stay removed. It was added by someone working on the Japanese holdouts. I will try, however.
  • Basically the way I see it is that if reliable sources have made a comparison then it can stay (although I'd prefer it in the text rather than a see also). However if they haven't then its sort of original research (and in any case the situations are quite different - the Japanese holdouts remained in hiding long after the war out of contact with the rest of the world, Detzner was in regular contact and surrendered once the war came to an end).--Jackyd101 (talk) 11:24, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I didn't think it was much of a similarity, except the guy working on the other project seemed to think so. It seems obvious, at least by implication, that Detzner was the last to surrender, since it took him until late November to find out about the end of the war, and then it took another 6 weeks or so for the communications to go back and forth. Auntieruth55 (talk) 15:51, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is is possible to get translations in the list of works so non-German speakers can understand the titles?
  • do you really want me to translate them? I don't think I should. I've moved the ones that are 4 Years under the Cannibals, under the original so it's clearer what they are.
  • Its clearer now. I would still prefer translations (alongside the original title, not instead of it), but I leave it entirely up to you.--Jackyd101 (talk) 11:24, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've checked in other encyclopedias, and in some of the scholarly books I have, and these titles under these circumstances are not translated.
  • Is there really nothing on his later life? Was he married? had children? What did he do during the Second World War?
  • that is what it means, he withdrew entirely from public life. Short of doing original research, there is nothing. Germans have a very strict privacy policy. He apparently moved from Berlin to Heidelberg, probably when the archive was moved during or after the war. It is not clear if he had children, or was married. As I said, Germans have a very strict privacy policy, 70 or 80 years blackout on info. They want to make sure someone is properly dead before anything comes out about them, I guess. Auntieruth55 (talk) 00:15, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • well, my notes say he was an oberstleutnant in Wehrwirtschaftstab of the OKW, 6, from 1.4.1945. Auswärtiges Amt, Akten zur deutschen auswärtigen Politik, 1918-1945, vol. 8, p. 677. I don't really think it's particularly relevant, nor am I positive it is the right Hermann Detzner (there was a different one who was a botanist).Auntieruth55 (talk) 00:36, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fair enough, that makes sense.--Jackyd101 (talk) 11:24, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wouldn't want to say it was in the OKW, if it happens to be the other Hermann Detzner, so I'd prefer to leave it out. Auntieruth55 (talk) 15:51, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Other than the above, I think it is an excellent article, and I will be happy to support it once the above have been addressed.--Jackyd101 (talk) 23:43, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Although there are still one or two minor points outstanding above, you've done more than enough to satisfy my queries and I am willing to support. Regards.--Jackyd101 (talk) 11:24, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • see if this addresses your issues; I think it should. Auntieruth55 (talk) 15:51, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments This reads very well and is an engaging article that seems worthy of FA status. I'll list text queries here as I find them:

  • "He led his party, consisting of four other European officers, and about 20 well-armed natives—a formidable jungle force—south toward the Sattelberg on the Huon peninsula, escaping Madang just ahead of an Australian patrol." Madang is a city – could we clarify its geographical relation to the mountain and peninsula mentioned? And should we say "fleeing" Madang or "escaping from" Madang rather than "escaping" Madang? JN466 00:02, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • done
  • "This pre-war German card from New Guinea depicts the fantastic space of the German colonies": the phrase "fantastic space" doesn't work for me; could we rephrase that? Also, do we know what kind of card it was (postcard, cigarette card)? JN466 00:18, 19 September 2009 (UTC) Just noticed the body text says it was a postcard; I'll add that to the caption. --JN466 00:20, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • done
  • "and was a reliable expert on Guinean dialects, and their overlap with German": what sort of overlap do we mean here? --JN466 00:31, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • it would be called pidgeon German, an admix of German words, and some structure, with the local dialect. Apparently it was particularly prevalent among people who grew up in the orphanages in Kokopo, but also who lived near the Lutheran missions; in order to describe something, esp. something "foreign" (i.e., European), they would use the German word, because it was the only word available to them. Their own language didn't have a word for it, so they used the missionary word. Auntieruth55 (talk) 00:43, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The linguistic terminus technicus then is German-based creoles. --JN466 00:49, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • it would be the language not the people. are you telling me to change something? Auntieruth55 (talk) 00:53, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • A "creole" is also a shorthand for a "creole language"; it does not refer to people of mixed race here. But you're right, we should say creole language to make that clearer. I'd suggest "and was a reliable expert on Guinean dialects, and the German-based creole languages that had arisen in New Guinea." --JN466 01:00, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He led at least one expedition to the South Sea coast" I know it is daft, but when I read this I imagined he was heading South. In this case, he was actually at the northern coast of New Guinea; can we reword this in such a way that dunces like me aren't confused? --JN466 01:00, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • sure....will do.
  • Some further information on his life post-1930s, if available, would be useful. Perhaps obituaries? (I'll be happy to help you uncipher any German sources, if you're ever flummoxed by an uncommon word or odd sentence.) --JN466 01:00, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would love an obit, but I can't get one from here. Do you have access to one? I do have his mention in the Verordnungsblatt, when he went into the service. What do you think of the above request to translate all the titles of his works...? Auntieruth55 (talk) 01:07, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Where no English translation has been published, we should not make up an English title. But we could add a hint in brackets as to what topic the book is about. I'd suggest ranging the translations of Vier Jahre ... directly under the German title, indented. As for obits, drawing a blank here as well. --JN466 01:17, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I moved the translations as you've suggested. If you can think of how to get an obit, I'll add anything new to the article later. Auntieruth55 (talk) 01:25, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I found that later in his life he became the director of a publishing firm in Heidelberg, and have added that info (sourced to Ritter). JN466 18:10, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support This is a charming, engaging and exceptionally well-written article. --JN466 01:00, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: Overall, a nice article about a very interesting subject, but just a few minor niggles before I can support. Support: deserves to be promoted.

  • "A practical treatise on Mechanical Dentistry, what we would today call Prosthorthodontia". I'd avoid first person if possible. Maybe "what is today called Prosthorthodontia". Perhaps link to Prosthodontics as well.
  • fixed
  • With Nugent, Konrad and Klink, I'm assuming you don't know their full names. Would there be any way of finding this out?
    Nugent, probably not. Konrad and Klink-I know their names are in the book, but I don't have access to it anymore. You might, because it's in a lot of libraries in Australia.
  • I believe it's Hans Klink, who was transported on the SS Morinda, August 25, 1915 from Rabaul to Sydney (Source: Hans Klink, SS Morinda, August 25, 1915, Rabaul to Sydney, NSW-- New South Wales Government. Reports of vessels arrived (or Shipping reports). Series 1291, Reels 1263-1285, 2851. State Records Authority of New South Wales. Kingswood, New South Wales, Australia.)
  • I can have a look tommorrow (Wednesday) at the book and get back to you. My German is not great, but I'll have a shot. Do you know what page it would be on? Apterygial 23:40, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
no don't know the page number off hand. Not sure it's that important, either. What about the rest of the article? Auntieruth55 (talk) 02:01, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'd be happy to support once my last comment (down below) is dealt with. Apterygial 02:25, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
done. If you get hold of the book, let me know about the names...Auntieruth55 (talk) 03:04, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The second sentence in the Adventures in New Guinea section: I would split this off after "on the island of New Guinea", as it seems quite long at the moment.
  • fixed.
  • "Eventually, Detzner found his way to the Lutheran mission (estab. 1892) on the Sattelberg, at 800 metres (2,625 ft)." What is the relevance of "(estab. 1892)"? It seems it adds little to the article. If I am wrong and it is important, let me know!
  • before I wrote the articles on Keyser and Flierl, it was important. Now, with the other articles, not so much. removed.
  • "one thing he had learned on this journey was the Australians had orders to shoot him on sight." Perhaps "he knew the Australians had orders to shoot him on sight." Seems a little less colloquial.
  • fixed
  • Flora and fauna are common enough terms and don't need to be linked.
  • done
  • "The German Geological Society of Berlin honored him in 1919 with the Nachtigal medal, named for the German explorer Gustav Nachtigal, and the Geographic Society of Hamburg awarded him their gold medal in 1921; the University of Bonn granted him an honorary degree; and the military awarded him the Iron Cross (1st Class)." I would punctuate this slightly differently. After "Gustav Nachtigal", I would replace the comma with a semicolon and remove the "and".
  • fixed
  • You should limit the link in "Iron Cross (1st Class)" to just "Iron Cross", and limit the size of the blue. (There's something somewhere in the MoS about this).
  • done
  • "The scenes he described brought to life the images they had seen on postcards (such as the one to left), newspapers, and in school books." Perhaps it is personal preference, but I wouldn't refer to images in text. The image is there and has its own caption, so the reference in text is probably not needed.
  • I prefer to leave the reference to the image in this case.
  • "Detzner was a civilian [emphasis in the original] surveyor..." Seems a little strange you would avoid a direct quote and yet retain the emphasis. Any particular reason?
  • I've already directly quoted from the original, plus have an additional quote from that source later in the paragraph. I didn't want to litter the paragraph with citations, and nothing else he said in that particular sentence, except claiming that Detzner was a civilian (which he was not), was of particular note.
  • "some of his notebooks and journals had been destroyed by the Australians". When they took him into custody?
  • yes, and also while they were chasing him. He claimed.
sure or something close to it. Auntieruth55 (talk) 02:01, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
done Auntieruth55 (talk) 03:04, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I also made a minor change which shouldn't be controversial. But, nothing serious, and they shouldn't be too hard to fix. Cheers, Apterygial 04:11, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support Fascinating article, particularly for an Australian reviewer. Expanded significantly since I first encountered at MilHist Peer Review, while retaining all its original qualities - well done! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:45, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Provisional support Support
I like the rhythms of your prose. However, I felt that throughout the article many names (of places and people) were unexplained, even unlinked. This makes it hard on the reader. A typical example is

"Eventually, Detzner found his way to the Lutheran mission on the Sattelberg, at 800 metres (2,625 ft). The Sattelberg mission was one of the Neuendettelsau Mission enterprise established by Johann Flierl after 1885, and included stations in Heldbach, Simbang, Tami Islands, and Simbu; these were an important evangelical presence in the Morobe Province and the missionaries had signed oaths of neutrality for the Australians."

Was the Sattelberg a mountain? The book, Klaus Neumann, Not the way it really was: constructing the Tolai past, seems to think of it as a town or station (uses "at Sattelberg"). In any case, it should be linked or clarified. Similarly, what is the Neuendettelsau Mission and who is Johann Flierl? Need to be described or removed. Even providing a link is not enough if the context is unfamiliar to most people. I have just left in Talk:Hermann_Detzner#Prose_comments_by_F.26f detailed comments on the text up to the end of the lead subsection of "Adventures in New Guinea." I will leave comments on the remaining sections soon, but, perhaps, in the meantime you clarify/link some of the lesser known names. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:43, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Was the Sattelberg a mountain, a town, or a mission station? yes to all. thanks for reading, I'll address your comments on the talk page. And I will clarify what the Sattelberg was.
I have now read the entire article and added more comments to the article's talk page. Please feel free to collapse them. Changing to support. Congrats! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:08, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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