Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Herman Vandenburg Ames/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 22:31, 24 August 2018 [1].

Herman Vandenburg Ames

Nominator(s): Chetsford (talk) 22:14, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Some time ago I discovered, to my great surprise, we had no article on Herman Vandenburg Ames. In the early 20th century Ames was instrumental in the development of government archives and the preservation of official records in the United States, two things which are very much in the spirit of this project. Originally I'd intended to just write a stub article to remedy this oversight, however, it ended up growing into a much longer article and - for purposes of thoroughness - I also created separate articles on his predecessor and successor as Dean of the Pennsylvania graduate school to fill out the "academic offices" template. I'd nominated this for GA, however, due to the current GA backlog and the lower level of interest in Law articles, after a number of months it didn't appear to be vectoring towards a review and a peer review request met with similar disinterest. Ergo, I've decided to move this straight to FA. That said, Blackmane gave it a good copyedit, and I've also taken care to archive all the web links with Perma.cc. I apologize that some of the references are offline and, in one case, may be difficult to acquire (i.e. I had to order reference 15 from the University of Pennsylvania through interlibrary loan). Thanks for the consideration. Chetsford (talk) 22:14, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Dank

"becoming a "brilliant, fervent, and impressive" Congregational preacher": Per WP:INTEXT, quoted text needs attribution in the text, not just in the footnote.

updated Chetsford (talk) 00:59, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"serving as ... chaplain of state institutions of Rhode Island": Feels indeterminate to me. One, two, three institutions? What kind of institutions?

updated Chetsford (talk) 00:59, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"parents — Herman": If you want to pass FAC, read MOS:DASH carefully, both on this point and the things I mention below. Here, it should be an unspaced em-dash or spaced en-dash.

thank you much - fixed throughout Chetsford (talk) 01:14, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"The Ames family were descended": In AmEng, it's usually "was", but even better would be to rewrite it, since "was" sounds awful to most Commonwealth ears.

good point - rewritten Chetsford (talk) 00:59, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"of Bruton, England in": Wikipedia's MOS is slightly behind the times here ... we need a comma after England, and after any similar construction. Check throughout.

updated and checked Chetsford (talk) 00:59, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"which would become among the largest university scholarships in existence at that time": It seems to me this would be better without "which would become" ... if it's not, then I don't understand the sentence.

I agree - rewritten Chetsford (talk) 00:59, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"1901-1902": en-dash.

fixed Chetsford (talk) 00:59, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"would note that - though they had": en-dash.

fixed Chetsford (talk) 00:59, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Someone else will probably bring this up, but FAC style (and Wikipedia style, generally) never relies as heavily on quotes as you do.

Thank you - on reading this through I can see what you mean. I've rewritten this to remove the block quote as well as four in-paragraph quotes. Chetsford (talk) 01:14, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I did some light copyediting up through "Writing and research". ~~That's probably it for me. I apologize, but I won't have time to finish up.~~ I'm as surprised as you are that this wasn't a Wikipedia article before you tackled it, and I think you've done an excellent job of giving the flavor of the man and his accomplishments, at least as far as I read. I hope this passes FAC, either this time or the next time this comes to FAC. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 00:10, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Dank - thanks very much for this review. Please see my amendments above and let me know if I've missed anything or you notice anything else! Chetsford (talk) 01:14, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Happy to help. The dashes need a little work, but someone will probably be along to fix those soon. Best of luck. - Dank (push to talk) 02:33, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support on prose per my standard disclaimer (but note my earlier comments). Well done. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 17:50, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Captions that aren't complete sentences shouldn't end in periods. Also, if there's only one thing in the image and only one thing mentioned in the caption, it isn't helpful to say "pictured"

File:Delta_Upsilon_Amherst_chapter_house.jpg: when/where was this first published? Same with File:University_of_Pennsylvania_College_Hall.jpg, File:Herman_Vandenburg_Ames_(1865–1935),_portrait_photograph.jpg, File:Ames_note_1918.jpg

File:Herman_V._Ames_signature.png would also need an original publication with that tag, but see COM:SIG
File:BenFranklinAtPennCropped.jpg needs a copyright tag for the original work. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:32, 14 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Nikkimaria. I've made these changes except for the last one as I can't find an image called BenFranklinAtPennCropped.jpg. Chetsford (talk) 06:01, 15 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's in the UPenn navbox. Nikkimaria (talk) 11:24, 15 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, thanks for the catch! I've removed the navbox. Chetsford (talk) 20:47, 15 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support from KJP1

A very well-written and well-sourced article. Happy to support. A few comments/suggestions for consideration below, but nothing to stand in the way.

Lead

"the inaugural recipient of the American Historical Society's Justin Winsor Prize" - can a work, rather than its author, be the recipient of a prize? I'm genuinely not sure.
"Ames was a driving force behind the establishment of the Pennsylvania State Archives, specifically, but also influenced the widespread establishment of government archives throughout the United States" - not sure the "specifically" is necessary, or the "but" quite apposite? Perhaps, "Ames was a driving force behind the establishment of the Pennsylvania State Archives and influenced the widespread establishment of government archives throughout the United States"?
"the acquisition of materials in American History" - does the History require capitalisation?

Early life

"He was ultimately ordained to the clergy" - is the "to the clergy" necessary? You could link Ordination.
"In the 16th century Amyas was frequently confused with Ames" - just checking this should be "Amyas" and not "Amyias" as in the previous sentence?

Education

"Though his interest was in American History" - see lead comment on the capitalised H. I see in the following section, it's used without the capitalisation.

Career - Teaching

"Other notable students of Ames' included Herbert Eugene Bolton" - a plural start but a singular finish. Did you mean to include John Musser, although you mention him above?
"However, Musser offered contravening recollections of Ames' academic manner" - a few points. Is the "However" necessary? Is "contravening" quite the right word, or would something like "contradictory" work? And "manner" seems a little odd, "approach"?

Archival preservation

"examining Pennsylvania's state records, which were poorly organized and largely diffused across various state offices" - "scattered", or "deposited in various …"?
"Ames continued his attempts to inventory Pennsylvania public records" - is "inventory" a verb? "to compile an inventory of Pennsylvania's public records"?
"Ames and Shimmel ended their work with several recommendations.[18] First, they recommended" - to avoid the double "recommend" perhaps replace the second with "advised"?

I'd be pleased to pick up the Source review, if no one else volunteers. Best regards. KJP1 (talk) 09:04, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

KJP1 - thanks so much for your excellent review and I will gladly accept your offer of a source review, too. I've made all the edits above with two exceptions. In the matter of "American H/history" the University of Pennsylvania capitalizes "H" when referring to the Ames Fund, which seems to invoke it as the academic discipline of American History but "h" when referring to history of the Americas (as in International Relations as a discipline vs international relations as in the relations between nations). The only other item was in the question of "inventory" as my Merriam-Webster dictionary says it can be either a noun ("a list of property or assets") or a verb ("to make a list of property or assets"). Chetsford (talk) 02:01, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley

"Ames' portrait, by Alice L. Emmong, is cataloged in the United States National Portrait Collection." I do not think this is worth mentioning in the lead.
I would also mention here where his papers are housed rather than his sister's fund.
You mention where he studied but not what he studied at each college. This should be stated.
" a room which he shared with the rest of the graduate school offices" I am not sure what this means. All the offices were in one room?
"an $80,000 endowment from the late Frederic Courtland Penfield, among the largest university scholarship funds in existence at that time" I would say "which was among the largest."
"During the 1901—1902 academic year, Ames was one of Ezra Pound's professors" But you say he became a full professor by 1908. If assistant professor this should be clarified - and when was he promoted to this position?
"the eighteenth amendment" I think this should be explained, not just linked.
You could link presentist to Presentism (literary and historical analysis). Also to relativism, although I am not clear that you are using the word in the same sense as in the linked article.
"Ames' portrait, by Alice L. Emmong, is cataloged in the United States National Portrait Collection." It seems more important that the portrait is owned by the University of Pennsylvaia. Is it known whether it is on display?
I do not understand the pedigree chart and it is not referenced.
He was obviously important as an archivist but as a historian? He was liberal and conservative on the constitution, presentist and relativist on history, he saw WWI as a wonderful opportunity for historians to influence public opinion in favour of the government but also believed in impartiality. He seems to have had no coherent views? Dudley Miles (talk) 21:43, 14 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Dudley, thanks so much for this thorough review. I've made notes below. Please let me know if you have any questions or you see that I've missed anything.

"Ames' portrait, by Alice L. Emmong, is cataloged in the United States National Portrait Collection." I do not think this is worth mentioning in the lead.

done

I would also mention here where his papers are housed rather than his sister's fund.

done

You mention where he studied but not what he studied at each college. This should be stated.

I agree. I actually don't have this information, oddly none of the sources specify his major at Amherst. While I assume it was History I can't say so with absolute certainty.

" a room which he shared with the rest of the graduate school offices" I am not sure what this means. All the offices were in one room?

Correct. (As an aside, IIRC, Pennsylvania didn't begin offering graduate degrees (outside of specialist degrees like MD) until the 1890s.)

It still does not sound right to me. A person shares with other people, not with offices. Maybe with other staff and/or with graduate students. Dudley Miles (talk) 21:53, 15 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"an $80,000 endowment from the late Frederic Courtland Penfield, among the largest university scholarship funds in existence at that time" I would say "which was among the largest."

done

"During the 1901—1902 academic year, Ames was one of Ezra Pound's professors" But you say he became a full professor by 1908. If assistant professor this should be clarified - and when was he promoted to this position?

changed "professors" to "instructors"; to the other point, in the U.S. system of academic ranks, assistant professor is the lowest grade in the tenure track so it would be the initial point of entry and there would be no date of promotion

"the eighteenth amendment" I think this should be explained, not just linked.

done

You could link presentist to Presentism (literary and historical analysis). Also to relativism, although I am not clear that you are using the word in the same sense as in the linked article.

done

"Ames' portrait, by Alice L. Emmong, is cataloged in the United States National Portrait Collection." It seems more important that the portrait is owned by the University of Pennsylvaia. Is it known whether it is on display?

I don't believe it is currently hanging, though this is personal observation and I can't cite a RS that says it is or is not on display.

I do not understand the pedigree chart and it is not referenced.

updated the image file with references

This should be referenced in the article, not just in the image file. I would suggest a note explaining with each name linked. Dudley Miles (talk) 21:53, 15 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

He was obviously important as an archivist but as a historian? He was liberal and conservative on the constitution, presentist and relativist on history, he saw WWI as a wonderful opportunity for historians to influence public :opinion in favour of the government but also believed in impartiality. He seems to have had no coherent views?

I'd agree that's potentially a valid critique.

Chetsford (talk) 20:12, 15 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

See two replies above. Dudley Miles (talk) 21:53, 15 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Dudley Miles I've made these changes now (substituted "staff" for "offices" and added a note "B" to the image caption) Chetsford (talk) 22:18, 15 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Look fine now. Dudley Miles (talk) 22:40, 15 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment: Unless I've missed it somewhere, we still need a source review. This can be requested at the top of WT:FAC. Sarastro (talk) 10:08, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Chetsford, Sarastro1 - No worries, I promised to pick this up and am sorry for the delay. It'll be done this afternoon. KJP1 (talk) 10:21, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sources review

I'll go through them all, obviously, but will only list any that have issues. A general point, but certainly not standing in the way - like you, I think links to the book sources can assist readers. But some of our esteemed colleagues at FAC hate them, unless they give a snippet. One point that was made to me, which I thought had some validity, is that links to Google give an advantage to a commercial seller. I therefore use Worldcat as my linking site, unless Google Books does give a snippet. But, as I say, it's a preference and something to bear in mind, not something that needs amendment. KJP1 (talk) 12:05, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Source 1 - do we want to indicate you need a Harvardkey to access? You indicate a "subscription" site elsewhere, e.g. Source 20.
Source 2 - this lists the collection, but doesn't appear to permit online access to it. I can't therefore check the content.
Source 30 - it might just be my computer but this one displays the text very oddly!
Source 43 - this appears to be an unpublished PHD thesis. But the statements it supports aren't controversial and I think it meets Wikipedia:SCHOLARSHIP. I'm assuming its author isn't the Alan Ginsberg, otherwise you'd need an authorlink!
Source 50 - more a prose query - should the quote read "Funeral services lor Dr. Herman V. Ames..", in which case it needs a (sic), or is it a typo? Similarly, what's "21st and Walnut sts"? Is that a US way of writing 21st and Walnut Streets? Ignore me, if I'm just not getting the variation.
General - I can't access the offline sources and, realistically, it's unlikely to be practical to do so from the UK. Of the online sources, a number are "paywalled" or similar. But they do take you to where they say. Nevertheless, I can access a good number; 3/21/24/26/31/32/34/36/38/39/41/45/51/54/56/58/60/62; and these support the content. That, and the fact that the nominator isn't new to FAC, lead me to be satisfied with the Source Review and I hope the coordinators are content. I should also say that the nominator's made the commendable effort to archive the online sources. KJP1 (talk) 13:43, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

KJP1 - thank you again for the excellent review! To your comments:

Source 1 - do we want to indicate you need a Harvardkey to access? You indicate a "subscription" site elsewhere, e.g. Source 20.

I've located a different link that doesn't require a Harvardkey and have updated the URL. (That said, it doesn't actually permit you to view the thesis which is only in paper form, it only permits you to confirm authorship/date/title, however, the source is just used to support a statement of author/date/title in the infobox rather than any content.)

Source 2 - this lists the collection, but doesn't appear to permit online access to it. I can't therefore check the content.

On this one, I also did not go into the Ames papers; the reference here is just to the short biographical note on the index page.

Source 30 - it might just be my computer but this one displays the text very oddly!

No, it was my fault. One number was off in the URL which is fixed now.

Source 43 - this appears to be an unpublished PHD thesis. But the statements it supports aren't controversial and I think it meets Wikipedia:SCHOLARSHIP. I'm assuming its author isn't the Alan Ginsberg, otherwise you'd need an authorlink!

I neglected to insert the URL but have corrected now.

Source 50 - more a prose query - should the quote read "Funeral services lor Dr. Herman V. Ames..", in which case it needs a (sic), or is it a typo? Similarly, what's "21st and Walnut sts"? Is that a US way of writing 21st and Walnut Streets? Ignore me, if I'm just not getting the variation.

Lor/For - it was my sloppy transcription! I've now changed "lor" to "for". On the questions of "sts" ... it's an anachronistic US way of writing "streets" (i.e. no longer commonly used; a la "drs" as a plural abbreviation of doctor).

Chetsford (talk) 16:10, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Tony1

Lead:

"Notable students of his included Ezra Pound, John Musser, and Herbert Eugene Bolton."—If there really were other notable students you're not listing right here ("included"), what about "Among his notable students were Ezra Pound, John Musser, and Herbert Eugene Bolton."
"A member of the Ames family, Herman Ames was born in ..." — OK, I see why you repeated: to link to the Ames family. And perhaps calling him just by his first name here would be a little informal. Alternatively, "Herman [[Ames family|Ames]] was born in ...". But you're a better judge, knowing the topic.
I've never been a fan of the "would" future tense (bit journalistic?); and whenever I see "also", I explore ways of dumping it. What about: "He went on to receive honorary doctorates from the University of Pennsylvania and LaSalle College."
Perhaps a comma before "and influenced"?
Are you ok about a single, stubby, dangling paragraph finishing the lead? "Ames' papers are housed at the University of Pennsylvania's University Archives."

Further:

Consider removing the comma, for flow, after "valedictorian".
"He was ultimately ordained in 1854, ..." — You haven't set up the context for "ultimately". Can it just be removed?
"later also serving as" — checking "also": he simultaneously ministered throughout the state, right? Seems like a heavy load, and that he might have taken those positions to settle down.
WP:MOSDASH says no spaced eM dashes. The choice for interrupting dashes is closed em or open en dashes (despite my use of open ems here, for clarity in separating quotes from comments ... maybe I should stop it!).
MOSLINK discourages bunched links, and links to items every person on the planet knows: "England". And "Germany".
"rectifying" is an unusual choice here: "played a central role in rectifying an intra-fraternity dispute". Sounds like correcting a dispute. Resolving?
"Ames graduated from Amherst with his A.B. degree in 1888, and thereafter entered Harvard University." — "an" A.B. degree? "Thereafter" sounds pretty permanent.
American History: why the H? It's not a departmental title. I see "advanced studies in history" later.
He would later recollect: why not plain past tense? Perhaps you could get away with the previous "would" (admit). But do ration them.
There's a wrong em dash for the year range. It defies all the major US and UK styleguides, including our MOS.

You're a good writer. Nice work. And I've done enough. Try printing it out and reviewing with a pen—make your brain apprehend it differently. For prose quality, this is at FAC standard, but why not go through the rest carefully. Tony (talk) 08:31, 23 August 2018 (UTC) PS AND this has been on the list too long. Tony (talk) 08:32, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Tony - thank you very much for this review. I think I've made all the changes now but let me know if I missed something. Chetsford (talk) 15:19, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Closing comment: I think we have a consensus to promote now. Just a couple of things; it's not worth holding this up any longer, but if someone could fix these after promotion I'd be very grateful. Sarastro (talk) 22:31, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Can we check for consistency in giving locations for the publication of books; we generally omit these (which is fine) but we include a few. It may be easier to remove the locations we give.
For consistency, the image of the letter to W.E.B. DuBois should have alt text. Sarastro (talk) 22:31, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Sarastro (talk) 22:31, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.