Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/HMS Pearl (1762)/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 23 November 2020 [1].


Nominator(s): Ykraps (talk) 17:38, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a Royal Navy frigate from the age of sail. She fought in the American and French Revolutionary Wars, although her part in the latter was less interesting, mainly confined to the more mundane frigate duties. Relegated to harbour roles in 1804, she was eventually sold in 1832. The article has been expanded significantly since it achieved GA in May 2018. There was a peer review in August this year and the article recently passed an A class review. Thanks in advance, Ykraps (talk) 17:38, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

SG comments

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  • MOS:DONTHIDE in the Prizes section.
    Done - That was a suggestion in a previous review but if the guidelines want it open, I'm happy to oblige.--Ykraps (talk) 04:59, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Check MOS:CAPTION punctuation on image captions.
    Done (I think) - I assume you're referring to full stops. I would say all the captions are complete sentences so have added to all. Let me know if you think otherwise or if I've missed anything.--Ykraps (talk) 04:59, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please use the trans-title= parameter on citation templates to help the reader out with a translation of non-English titles.
    Done - Didn't know there was such a thing so thanks for pointing it out.--Ykraps (talk) 05:12, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • What is a slop ship? Does it need an article and a wikilink? (Ah, now I see it is defined much later, as a note to the last paragraph. Please define earlier, and we probably need a red link.)
    Changed in the lead to, storeship for sailors' clothes. I see User:Peacemaker67 has also commented on this subject so I'll ping you if anything changes as a result. I don't think it's anything more than a dictionary definition so a red link is probably inappropriate. A sentence or two in the storeship article is a possibility.--Ykraps (talk) 14:44, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Now I know! Thx, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:07, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:OVERLINK; why do America, New York and Mediterranean need to be linked?
    I consider those to be highly ambiguous, particularly America, which is often used to refer to the United States of. I have rewritten to say American continent and removed link. As the state didn't exist at the time and it makes little difference whether Pearl was sent to the basin or the sea, I have also removed the links to New York and the Mediterranean respectively.--Ykraps (talk) 15:50, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "clear and obvious" mistake is probably redundant.
    Done.--Ykraps (talk) 16:06, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Competent article, worthy candidate. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:08, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review. If you spot anything else that needs attention, please add above.--Ykraps (talk) 16:08, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for addressing all of this; I don't have time for a more in-depth review, but we are good on the ship jargon, accessible to lay reader score! Best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:29, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by PM

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With the disclaimer that I am not an age of sail guy, I did look at this closely at Milhist ACR, and all my comments there were addressed. I have some additional points:

Lead
  • this may have already been resolved in earlier reviews, but why no "fifth-rate" in the lead? I understand rating was an important distinction is age of sail ships.
    The rating system was based on the number of guns so calling her a 32-gun frigate is a more detailed way of marking her as a fifth rate. In addition she is noted to be of the Niger class; all fifth-rate frigates. I am not entirely against adding fifth rate to the lead but I fear it will turn the opening sentence into a sea of blue. Her rating is mentioned in the construction and armament section so isn't entirely missing from the article. I am happy to consider any suggestions but, as I said, I'm having difficulty fitting in another blue link.--Ykraps (talk) 05:30, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
what about "HMS Pearl was a fifth-rate 32-gun Royal Navy frigate of the Niger-class", which divides up the sea of blue? Or lengthening the sentence, it is quite short for a first sentence. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:31, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done - I don't know why I couldn't see that solution.--Ykraps (talk) 06:34, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • at the time, Arbuthnot was actually Vice-Admiral of the Blue Squadron, not a full Admiral
    Of the White, I think, but yes, that's a fair point. I have changed to Vice-Admiral in all instances. At the time, Admiral was, and to some degree, still is, a generic term for any type of admiral. Admiral, on its own, without any qualifier, wasn't a rank back then, so any contemporary sources, such as the one I took the information from, will use it loosely.--Ykraps (talk) 06:09, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • why is the link to Battle of Cape Henry piped to "first battle of Virginia Capes"? Is the former at the wrong title?
    They are alternative names for the same battle. I think the latter is more usual in British English and was the term used in the source.--Ykraps (talk) 06:09, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I've removed the pipe link, which I think now is what you were driving at.--Ykraps (talk) 06:43, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • perhaps say "where she served as a clothing storage and distribution ship, known as a slop ship, then as a receiving ship."
    I thing this has been resolved following a comment from User:SandyGeorgia.--Ykraps (talk) 06:09, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • is the bolding of Protheé really justified, as it isn't a significant alternative name, she was just a hulk at this stage?
    To be honest, I don't know. Initially it wasn't but I was asked to do it at ACR. Happy to go with your thoughts.--Ykraps (talk) 06:09, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I don;t think it meets the criteria of significant alternative name, so I would unbold it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:55, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 20:34, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Infobox
  • drop the 0 inches on the Depth of hold
    Done.--Ykraps (talk) 06:48, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • not sure about the need to abbreviate quarterdeck and forecastle
    That was inherited when I first copied the infobox from a similar article (rather than build it from scratch). I had always assumed that was the style but after checking a few more articles, it doesn't appear to be so I have written in full. Thanks, I will look out for that in the future.--Ykraps (talk) 06:48, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Body
Works fine now. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:55, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Down to Assault on Philadelphia, more to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:37, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I would link all ranks at first mention. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:49, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 07:28, 23 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • the para starting "With the arrival of winter..." doesn't actually mention Pearl as part of Barrington's force, so it isn't clear why it is in the article
    It was written in that vague fashion because sources differ as to when Pearl joined the action. I have rewritten; see what you think.[[3]] --Ykraps (talk) 19:12, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's fine now, if still a little vague. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:49, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
guns. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:49, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 07:28, 23 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Down to Mediterranean service and the outbreak of war. More to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:08, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's marginal, but not enough of an issue for me to withhold support. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:49, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I would like to keep the table, if only to prevent well-meaning editors from later jamming in the information with little regard for the prose. If it's mentioned by another reviewer, I will reconsider it's importance.--Ykraps (talk) 07:28, 23 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's me done. I haven't looked at the sources or done any spotchecks, I'll leave that to the source reviewer. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:00, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A couple of minor things to do. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:49, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Peacemaker67:, I think I've attended to those points now. Thanks for your thorough review.--Ykraps (talk) 07:34, 23 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Notes

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@SandyGeorgia:, @Peacemaker67:, I confess that I wasn't expecting any feedback for a while so have been caught at a rather busy time. Thanks for your prompt attention and I will endeavour to answer all your points as quickly as possible.--Ykraps (talk) 15:43, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No worries ... I am heading off for the cabin in the woods myself. And nothing I mentioned is urgent. Bst, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:55, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, no issue. I’ll finish up and wait for a ping when you’ve had time to address my comments. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:13, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Kreggon

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There are two citations with wrong dates: 38 and 44. There are also several identical citations that should be combined, e.g. 76 and 110 are referring to the same document and the same page. I think there are more, so they should all be checked. Kreggon (talk) 09:43, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

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  • Some images are missing alt text
    Added.--Ykraps (talk) 06:59, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:HMS_Pearl_and_Santa_Monica_Azores,_1779.jpg: source link is dead, needs a US PD tag
    Done.--Ykraps (talk) 20:58, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Bataille_de_Sainte_Lucie_1778.jpg needs a US PD tag. Ditto File:Dominic_Serres_-_Captain_George_Montagu_of_the_'Pearl',_32_guns,_engaging_the_Spanish_frigate_'Santa_Monica'_off_the_Azores,_14th._September_1779.jpg
    Done.--Ykraps (talk) 20:58, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:HMS_Pearl_vs_Esperance.jpg has three of the same licensing tag but is missing a US PD tag
    Done.--Ykraps (talk) 20:58, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Flag_of_the_Kingdom_of_the_Two_Sicilies_(1816).svg: one of the provided source links is dead, and should include a copyright tag for the original design. Ditto File:Pabellón_sencillo_de_la_Armada_de_España_1701_1785.svg.
    As these are faithful reproductions of designs that are over 200 years old, I think they are considered public domain under US law. I have added a US-PD tag.--Ykraps (talk) 06:59, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nikkimaria (talk) 21:15, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Nikkimaria, are you content with Ykraps' responses? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 10:41, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:40, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie

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I'm copyediting as I read through; please revert anything you disagree with.

  • More of a question than an issue, but I noticed when following the link to Niger-class frigate that Pearl was ordered on the same day as HMS Emerald (1762). Is it worth mentioning that Pearl was one of two ships ordered at that time?
    It wasn't unusual for multiple ships of the same class to be ordered at the same time but I think it's interesting and worth mentioning. Done.--Ykraps (talk) 06:06, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • She was recommissioned the following month under John Leveson-Gower, then Sir Basil Keith in November. I think a word is missing here; as it stands this reads as though she was recommissioned again under Sir Basil. Perhaps "who was succeeded by Sir Basil" or "replaced by"?
    Yes, although commissioned might simply mean having a commission for, so if you think it reads or flows better saying succeeded that’s okay with me. Done.--Ykraps (talk) 18:33, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Between April 1770 and January 1773, Pearl spent time on and off the Newfoundland station, under first John Ruthven and then James Bremer. She then sailed for Portsmouth where she underwent repairs and then a refit, at a total cost of £9,008.15.11d. The combined works took until February 1776. Lots of "thens"; I copyedited it a bit but I think a little more is needed. Do we know if she was under Bremer's command when she sailed for Portsmouth? Or the approximate date she sailed? Either bit of information would let us copyedit this a bit: perhaps "and then James Bremer, under whom she sailed for Portsmouth in about 1775" or something along those lines.
    I've removed two more.[[4]]--Ykraps (talk) 18:33, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • You have "landings at Kips Bay" but our article has "landing"; is this a typo or are both normal military usage?
    I think it’s more an Engvar thing; British sources tend to say landings but again I’m not precious about it.--Ykraps (talk) 18:33, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • She took part in the landings at Kip's Bay, New York, in September, escorting transports along the Hudson River before creating a diversion in the North River. Reading through the paragraph, I think you could cut this sentence completely. It tells us what's about to happen, but then you give the details again: I followed the link to the landings and then came back to the article thinking the narrative was moving past that, only to realize you were describing the landings. It would read more naturally to cut that sentence, perhaps with a little rephrasing of the remainder of the paragraph, and link to the Kips Bay landing article when the landing itself is described.
    I have rewritten the paragraph here.[[5]] Is that any better?--Ykraps (talk) 18:33, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • where a large earthworks and gun battery protected a channel, blocked with a submerged cheval de frise. The impediment comprised large wooden frames, filled with stones and fronting iron-tipped spears. If we're going to describe the cheval de frise in this detail I'd suggest either cutting the term ("...blocked with large wooden frames, filled with...") or making it clearer that this is a definition: "...with a submerged cheval de frise—large wooden frames, filled with...".
    There were many ways to construct a cheval de frise so I think the definition is needed and have therefore gone for your second suggestion. Or I could put in a footnote.--Ykraps (talk) 18:50, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • She came up with her objective at 09:00, which fought for an hour and a half before striking her colours. The prize turned out to be the Industry, an American frigate of 26 guns operating under a letter of marque. I think this would read better with the prize named earlier. How about: " The vessel turned out to be the Industry, an American frigate of 26 guns operating under a letter of marque; Pearl came up with her at 09:00, and the Industry fought for an hour and a half before striking her colours." And is the Industry worth a red link?
    I've rewritten somewhat differently here[[6]] but the vessel has been identified earlier as you suggest. See what you think. The red link was added at the request of another reviewer, who felt the size of the vessel warranted it.--Ykraps (talk) 19:04, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • On her return to the American continent: this paragraph has the same issue as the one about the Kips Bay landing; I think you could cut the initial summary of what's about to happen. It's out of sync with the purely chronological narrative that the article follows almost everywhere.
    Rewritten here.[[7]] See what you think.--Ykraps (talk) 19:38, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Admiralty made another attempt to dispose of her on 4 January 1832, when she sold for £1,230.0.00d.: I wouldn't say "attempt", since it was successful.
    Changed to 'eventually disposed of'.--Ykraps (talk) 20:05, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I haven't read much about naval engagements of this era, so this may be a silly question, but is Pearl's list of prizes unusually long, particularly for a relatively small ship? Was she unusually successful? I ask because no comment to that effect appears in the article and I wondered if that's because her record is not remarkable, or if it's an omission in which case it might be worth mentioning.
    Not especially, some frigates were more successful and others less so. The smaller frigates usually took more prizes than the larger ships-of-the-line which were slow and were often limited to prize taking in, few and far between, fleet actions. The prize taking frequency was dictated by a frigate's role as much as anything else – one escorting a convoy on a long journey or scouting for an enemy fleet, would not have the same opportunities as one on blockade duty. Frigates were faster and better armed than heavily laden merchant ships, which were easily caught and readily surrendered.--Ykraps (talk) 20:05, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Overall the article is in good shape; just a few points above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:39, 25 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Changes look good. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:28, 27 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks.--Ykraps (talk) 06:10, 27 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by CPA-5

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At the moment I just claim my seat here. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 22:19, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • There's still a difference between both of them. "Burnt" is more popular in the UK than in the US. Look at a couple of British dictionaries Cambridge and Lexico even Learner's Dictionary says so. Per MOS:COMMONALITY we should use the common word in that English style.
  • Hmm interesting this could have the same situations as the "-ize" and "-ise".
  • spotted Camilla some 6 nautical miles (11 kilometres) away Add miles, unlink and abbreviated km.
    Not entirely sure what you're asking here. The template can't handle more than one conversion so are you asking to use miles instead of nautical miles?--Ykraps (talk) 06:19, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Down to Operations in the West Indies. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 11:33, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Am working on it.
  • Per this we should specify and write always the specific "tons" fully.
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 17:22, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's everything from me. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 15:15, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi CPA-5: are your comments all satisfactorily addressed, or do you have more to come? Cheers. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:05, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

CPA-5 Are we all good here now? Regards --Ykraps (talk) 17:14, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments on the sourcing

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I note that in the References section some sources have OCLC, some ISBN, some more than one ISBN and some both OCLC and ISBN values. I take all these books are reliable sources? B/c with some of them it's not clear what their publishers' and authors' credentials are. The citations seem to be consistently formatted with the required information. Is a spotcheck needed? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 12:27, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I've removed the extraneous ID numbers, which was the result of some sloppy copy and pasting. Not all books have an ISBN number, particularly older books that haven't been reprinted. As per WP:Citing sources I have included an optional ISBN or OCLC number. As far as I'm concerned all the sources are all reliable secondary sources. Which ones are causing you concern?--Ykraps (talk) 18:29, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I was mostly wondering about Robert Beatson, Allen, Joseph and David McCullough. Are these good authors for books on naval warfare? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 11:47, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Joseph Allen was a naval historian and biographer [[12]] McCullough is more of a popular historian but his book on the American Revolutionary War is not used to source anything controversial. McCullough's claim that Pearl escorted troopships along the Hudson and caused a diversion for the landings, is backed up by Beatson, who may not be a naval historian but his books are widely regarded and praised for their accuracy.[[13]] His Naval and Military Memoirs of Great Britain is often referred to by both William Laird Clowes and Alfred Thayer Mahan. --Ykraps (talk) 16:20, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I'll take that then. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:05, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Jo-Jo Eumerus: Apologies for coming back at you again. No, spotchecks are not required. It is more a case of whether you consider that it meets the FA criterion. (If you were saying that you think it does then apologies if I am being slow on the uptake/overly cautious.) Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:59, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'd say it meets the FA criterium, with the caveat that not being familiar with the topic area I can't tell whether it meets NPOV. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 19:17, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.