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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Giovanni Villani

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 18:31, 7 February 2008.

Giovanni Villani edit

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For all you dirty Wikipedian wool finishers out there with an interest in pre-modern Italian diplomacy and banking, this article is for you (I know, I know, it's a small demographic). The article is quite short, about 28,000 KB (much shorter than the Ming Dynasty article I recently nominated), and well worth the read, unless you're a lazy fart. It's jam-packed with good pictures and inline citations with credible scholarly sources, so you can't jump around and complain much about either of those points, can you Mr. Condescending Reviewer? (...Silence...) That's what I thought. Now who's ready to read an article on some dead Italian guy dressed like the caped-crusader!?Pericles of AthensTalk 21:48, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment - I have not, nor will I ever, think of myself as a lazy fart. I read the article; interesting. Cite number seven should probably be converted to proper format, though. Happyme22 (talk) 01:48, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yaarrr, matey. I believe I just fixed the online citation to fit a proper format; if there is still a problem let me know.--Pericles of AthensTalk 02:03, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You're good. --Happyme22 (talk) 05:01, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Comment. Your blurb made me laugh (especially with the WoW pushing Mr. T knock-off), which is why I read the article in the first place. Nice sell! The subject matter is interesting and the prose is written well enough. I'm concerned about several things, however; the lead states that the Cronica is famous, but this is not qualified. Is there something about the work's legacy that can be mentioned here; why has it lasted this long and what is it used for today? Despite the Dante tidbit being very interesting to an English major such as myself, I don't see it in the body of the article, whereas the intro does not say that Vallani had and wrote about first-hand accounts of fires, famines and the plague -- these things make up a huge chunk of the article. I would expand on this greatly in the lead and maybe move Dante somewhere else. Also, the Cronica is mentioned in several different ways throughout the article, which can be somewhat confusing: Cronica, Chronicles, Chronicles... is there any one that is more accepted than the other? I do not believe they should be used so interchangeably. It may also not be a bad idea to define what a Chronicle is for all of us who flunked medieval history. I'm leaning toward support, but this needs a little more work. María (habla conmigo) 13:34, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy to say that I have so far addressed all of your concerns except for two: creating a legacy section on Giovanni and his Cronica, as well as creating a section on defining what a chronicle is. I think this article can do without the latter (people can look through the chronicle article if they are unsure of what a chronicle is), but the legacy section is a very good idea. I will now be researching more about the Cronica so I can begin a legacy section, as you suggest.--Pericles of AthensTalk 15:36, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Great! I hadn't noticed that "chronicle" was already linked in the lead, so I apologize for that oversight; I agree that a lengthy description is not necessary. The lead is already much improved and I look forward to reading this legacy section. :) María (habla conmigo) 16:36, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You got it; I just created a new legacy section, but it is a work in progress (only 6 sentences as of now). I will expand upon it in due time.--Pericles of AthensTalk 19:05, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for letting me know about your progress, Pericles. The legacy section is a great start and the lead is a million times better -- I'm willing to offer my support as a non-lazy fart. :) María (habla conmigo) 13:20, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I like the article, but I'm wondering about the structure. The major part of the article is not about the man but instead about the Cronica itself, a subject which could arguably be its own article. Sabine's Sunbird talk 02:09, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, let's debate this point. You say the "major part" of the article ("The Chronicles" section) is exclusively about info stated in the Cronica and says little about Villani. I would argue that the beginning five paragraphs (including the quotation about the 1300 pilgrimage to Rome) are all about Villani, why he wrote the Cronica, his views on certain things, his writing style, and his contribution to Italian and even European literature and historical record. You could argue that the "rebuilding", "fires", and "flood" sub-sections have little to do with Villani the man (except to demonstrate his writing), but the "famine" sub-section directly deals with Villani, since he was an official in charge of provisions for the city during the first famine described. Hence, he had a leading role in the events described in that sub-section (refer back to his "Life" section). The "commerce and trade" sub-section also has valuable input from Villani on why he thinks fairs do not work in Florence. Plus, the new Legacy section adds more info about Villani the man, not just his writing. Rebuttal?--Pericles of AthensTalk 04:05, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Moni3 I, too, read the article in order not to be thought of as a lazy fart by anonymous strangers... And these are my comments.

  • I liked the article. I learned some things, and all the famine, fire, and plague that happened to Florence within a short period of time makes me wonder how the region attributed their pretty bad luck, or if they took it all in stride.
  • Might you be able to spread the photos from one side to the other to balance out the appearance of the page? I know it's a no-no to begin a section with a left side photo, but you have some sections that can have some photos below the section start.
  • This sentence: By writing in Italian, he depicts what he saw with the immediate vividness natural to a clear businesslike mind accustomed to the observation of mankind, without the self-consciousness imposed by composition in Latin. has 2 issues that I saw. Sometimes the verb tense isn't consistent. Most of it is past tense, except for this sentence (and I didn't check the entire article for consistent verb tense). As well, has someone else in one of your sources characterized Villani's writing style in this manner or have you?
  • You have given me a new way to coerce encourage people to read my future FAC's. Good luck! --Moni3 (talk) 17:39, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I moved two images on the left, in regards to your suggestion. Also, that sentence was actually never mine, and in retrospect it was a little unencyclopedic, so I just deleted it. Thanks for commenting, and I hope your future FAC intros are just as ridiculous as mine. Hah.--Pericles of AthensTalk 17:45, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The article is completely different from the first one I saw and I like this one much better :) I've done a bit of copyediting myself, and I now think it meets the Featured Article critera. Karanacs (talk) 19:20, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fixes resolved Karanacs (talk) 19:54, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I think the article is poorly organized, as half of the article is presented as more of a plot summary/history of the city rather than related specifically to the subject of the article. I also think the prose is very choppy and could do with a good copyediting. More detailed concerns:
    • I think the lead is a bit short.
    • Per WP:MOSBIO, after the first reference, he should be refered to by his surname. The article alternates between calling him "Giovanni Vellani", "Giovanni", and "Villani". Please be consistent.
    • Full dates (and month-day combinations) need to be wikilinked so that date preferences work
      • After moving all the stuff into the Cronica article, I found only one remaining instance of this, so I linked it as you suggest.--Pericles of AthensTalk 18:12, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Please wikilink factor and prior, as those terms aren't in widespread use today
    • Parts of the first section read more like proseline. Can it be massaged a bit so that it flows a little better?
      • I'm working on it...I've fixed a few sentences but it still needs a bit of work to reorder all of that (some of which was not my own doing, but that of previous editors).--Pericles of AthensTalk 18:12, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • What were his actual duties as"magistrate of provisioning" during the famine?
    • Overall, I'm finding the prose to be a bit choppy and in some cases a little more informal than I'd like to see.
      • Ok, be specific, where exactly do you see this and I will be more than happy to address concerns with specific statements.--Pericles of AthensTalk 18:12, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Walter VI of Brienne to rule as signor, a man who suspended all legal actions taken against the Buonaccorsi" -> this sentence makes it sound as if a signor was always a man who suspended legal actions against this family
    • I think the section headings need to be renamed. Death is under life, which doesn't make a great deal of sense, and "A banker, official, diplomat, and prisoner" is much too long to be a section heading (plus, it really shouldn't start with an article)
    • I think you should mention in the Life section about when he started writing the Chronicles. It's a little jarring to go from just a brief mention of what he wrote in the Chronicles to a statement that it was an important work at the time
    • You need to make it clear that the really large quote in the beginning of the section The Chronicles is from Villani
    • Is "annacuracies" supposed to be "innacuracies"
      • Hey, that's pretty condescending, isn't it? It was a typo that has been fixed.--Pericles of AthensTalk 18:12, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Not meant to be condescending, I thought it might be some strange form of "anachronism" but I was too lazy to look it up to see if it was a real word. Karanacs (talk) 20:04, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I question whether this article should contain such an in-depth summary of the events captured in his work. Most of this half of this article relates to Villani only in that he wrote about the events - there is almost nothing about how the events affected him. I would suggest that a second article be created about the Cronica and this information be instead placed in that article. I really don't think it belongs in a biography unless you can tie the information more closely to his life (for example, the information about the 1347 famine could be incorporated into the part of the article about him being named a magistrate of provisioning) Karanacs (talk) 05:02, 19 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

More from me (Karanacs (talk) 20:04, 4 February 2008 (UTC))[reply]

    • First paragraph of Life and career section mentions "decided to begin writing the Cronica." I'd include a short (one-sentence?) explanation of what the Cronica is since it isn't made clear until later.
    • "Villani retained much of the optimism in his writing" - but the article does not mention before that there WAS optimism in his writing, so "retained" might not be the best word
    • What exactly was he convicted and imprisoned for (it's not clear how he broke the law)? Was he the only one convicted from his bank (or from the others that went bankrupt at the same time)?
      • Come on! Play nice! I can't find every obscure fact in the world; only 80% of them. Lol.--Pericles of AthensTalk 22:03, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • ""It is known that several events...written to deliberately obscure the truth". This seems a little Weaselly for such an allegation.
      • Ho ho, fixed that big time, you'll like the scholarly improvement to that sentence.--Pericles of AthensTalk 22:03, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The details on his death/burial are on the life section instead of the death section.
    • I think the Nuova Cronica section needs to go between Life and Death (with Legacy and Criticism still last). Most of what is discussed in the Nuova Cronica section are things he wrote, and it would provide a good segue into death, since that begins by talking about an entry in the Cronica.
    • The persondata template appears to be missing.
    • The prose still needs work. I fixed a few misspellings and duplicate words, but I don't know if I caught them all, and it might be wise to run this through a spell check. Life and career section appears to jump around a bit, and part of it still reads like proseline. Some sentences don't flow well together (for example, "Villani was a Guelph,[10] but his book is much more taken up with an inquiry into what is useful and true than with factional party considerations. He favored republicanism over monarchy") Can you get an involved person to take a look at it?

Karanacs (talk) 20:04, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • I fixed the first three sentences in that paragraph, but in order to get some outside help as you suggest, I've contacted The Pentagon, which will deploy an elite editing team of death squadrons known as the League of Copyeditors—otherwise known as the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen—as soon as they are done destroying America's enemies overseas. Tally-ho, wiki freedom fighters! (XD Lol.)--Pericles of AthensTalk 22:03, 4 February 2008 (UTC


  • Weak Support Neutral Oppose I agree with previous reviewers who have said that the article should focus on the man (the subject of the article), noting his works only as to talk about him further. For his writing style, for the specifics regarding X, Y, and Z regarding the works, again in the article of the works.
  • "Villani described the rebuilding of Florence after the 1293 rebellion of one Giano della Bella; he notes that by 1296 conditions were once again in a "tranquil state." - this is is about the contents of the Cronica, and on Florence history/historiography, not in any way about Villani
  • I note that Ming Dynasty was also requested to be split into "History of the Ming Dynasty" and "Ming Dynasty". It is not easy to separate closely related topics.
Kiyarrllston 01:40, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
See above ^ for all these concerns I have just addressed. Damn I'm good. Lol.--Pericles of AthensTalk 18:12, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for notifying me on my talk page, I enjoyed reading the article, I consider my previous objection addressed.--Kiyarrllston 15:34, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I claim that the writing style is not yet up to snuff, and that overlinking is occurring (hostage?).--Kiyarrllston 15:34, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have addressed your concerns on the article's talk page where you wrote; as to overlinking, I'm right on it.--Pericles of AthensTalk 16:52, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Changed to neutral. Further comments left on talk page.--Kiyarrllston 21:27, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Changed to weak support because I agree with carabinieri's assesment--Kiyarrllston 14:14, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I left a reminder on his talk page that there were outstanding comments that needed to be addressed. He appears to have been active in the last few days on other pages, so is probably not on a wikibreak. Karanacs (talk) 17:40, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry I haven't gotten to this right away, I have been concerned with other things on Wiki and real life concerns with mounting schoolwork, as this is the second semester of my senior year in college. Wish me luck people. :) I will try to address these concerns over the weekend.--Pericles of AthensTalk 23:19, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Looking over this article on Villani and the new one I just created for Cronica, I must admit, I feel sorry that I didn't split the article in the first place and just nominate Cronica to be a featured article, because that article actually looks better than this. Lol. Oh well, I put up Cronica as a Good Article nominee; anyone want to review it?--Pericles of AthensTalk 19:42, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I just improved this article on Villani by adding new information from Louis Green's 1967 journal article.--Pericles of AthensTalk 21:17, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weakish oppose Weakish support Don't know enough about the subject to have a strong opinion but I think a round of copy-editing from fresh eyes would do a lot of good. A few sentences seemed awkward, though I don't claim to be an authority on grammatical issues. For instance as well as his glorification and inability to criticize the papacy and Florence should probably be something like as well as his glorification of the papacy and Florence and his inability to criticize them. Or even simply as well as his glorification of the papacy and Florence. In that same paragraph you have While continuing work and was continued by his brother in back to back sentences (and somehow, I feel like "continue" is not the right word here). A few paragraphs below: "... the famine's worst effects. In order to mitigate the effects, ... ". Later, use of the informal word info. Here and there Villani could be replaced by a pronoun to tighten the prose. I know, these are not cardinal sins but overall, I think a thorough round of copyediting is needed to meet criterion 1a. These minor quibbles notwithstanding, this is a very nice article and kudos to the author(s). Pichpich (talk) 22:10, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have copyedited the article according to each one of your suggestions; even scrapping about two dozen instances where there was a "Villani" and replacing it with a pronoun. I think you'll like the general clean up which follows the advice you've proposed here.--Pericles of AthensTalk 01:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And as I told User:Karanacs, I have contacted an elite shadow government of mind-control masters and ex-KGB officers known as the League of Copyeditors; they should be slitting your throat any minute now, along with your dog, after they are done mercilessly copyediting this article and intercepting North Korean missiles shipped to Iran.--Pericles of AthensTalk 01:59, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Changing to weak support per the changes made. I still believe that the elite shadow government of mind-control masters and ex-KGB officers known as the League of Copyeditors could help. No offence to you, the article is very very well-written but fresh eyes are often a good idea for making the final adjustments. As I said earlier, I can't really judge the content but as far as form is concerned, I won't object with the article being promoted to FA but I still think there's room for slight improvements. Pichpich (talk) 02:53, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. The article looks really good. I just have one (extremely minor) concern: "Villani's work is an Italian chronicle written from the perspective of the political class of Florence just as the city rose to a rich and powerful life of thought and action." Is "Italian" referring to the language it was written in? In that case a link to Italian language might be helpful to clarify the matter.--Carabinieri (talk) 12:39, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Good idea; I've fixed that.--Pericles of AthensTalk 14:26, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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