Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Georgi Kinkladze/archive2

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by GrahamColm 12:21, 3 September 2012 [1].

Georgi Kinkladze edit

Nominator(s): Oldelpaso (talk) 21:10, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Kinkladze is a Georgian footballer best known for his time in England. For a period in the mid-to-late 1990s, he was pretty much the only reason I kept going to matches. The article has had one previous nomination, four years ago (where does the time go?). He's been out of the public eye in the intervening time, so little is new since then, but it should hopefully be more polished now. Oldelpaso (talk) 21:10, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: I've read down to the end of the Man City section so far. No major problems, but I noticed several instances of tabloid-style journalese, which is not really appropriate for an encyclopedia and suggests POV. Plus a few instances where the prose could be tightened. A general copy-edit wouldn't hurt at this stage. I'll try and look at the rest in the next day or two if I can. Sarastro1 (talk) 09:03, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The lead looks a little short, and per WP:LEAD, should cover all the main points in the article. It should say more about his early career and his Man City career based on what I've read so far.
"In 1991, Georgia became an independent state again, but independence brought civil war as rival factions fought for control.": This looks a little forced here, coming between information about Kinkladze's career. Unless it can be shown how this affected the player personally, there may not be too much need for it. But it may be part of the slight problem with chronology in this section, per the next comment below.
Second paragraph of "Early career" is a little odd. First sentence: signs for Dinamo; second sentence (no date); second sentence: Georgian independence in 1991; third and fourth sentences: senior international debut in 1992. Then the start of the next paragraph returns to his first season for Dinamo. This needs looking at, I think.
"the pair combined for one of Georgia's six goals": This is slight journalese, particularly for the non-specialist who may be a little lost!
- Not sure what to do with this. The source quotes Arveladze, mostly about his friendship with Kinkladze. As part of it he mentions this match as the first time they both played for Georgia, and says "he [Kinkladze] provided the assist for my first goal". If "combined" is no good for a non-specialist, using "assist" would be little better. Oldelpaso (talk) 20:19, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - Actually, I think a linked assist would actually be better as it is a technical term, rather than jargon. Sarastro1 (talk) 07:49, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    - Done. Oldelpaso (talk) 19:07, 13 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Footage of Kinkladze's performance resulted in interest from clubs in Italy": Clunky prose. Maybe "Italian clubs became interested in Kinkladze after seeing footage of his performances"?
"Georgia thrashed Wales 5–0": More journalese, and potentially slight POV issue.
"At the return match": Will non-sports fans understand this?
"Kinkladze had scored 14 goals in 21 outings": Sporting journalese here with "outings"
Is there a relevance to Kinkladze being Ball's first signing?
In the early life section, there is not much about his performances. How did he perform? How many goals did he score? Did he win awards? What did critics say? The only detail is about his struggles at Saarbrucken. However, I understand that not much detail may be available.
- Beyond what's already in the article, there is very little, and what sources do exist often contradict each other. Oldelpaso (talk) 20:19, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - I suspected as much. No problem. Sarastro1 (talk) 07:49, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Manchester City's form stuttered…": More journalese.
"Kinkladze quickly became a terrace hero": Ditto, and I'm not sure everyone will know what a terrace is.
"The first win, by 1–0 against Aston Villa, finally arrived on 25 November 1995": Not sure everyone will know that this was some substantial distance into the season.
"press and supporters touted Kinkladze as the star player of the Manchester City side": More precision needed here. Any specific people may be useful to give at least one short quote, but why use "touted" here?
Not sure the Kinkladze v Juninho part adds much here.
- It attracted quite a bit of press attention at the time. For example if you look at the ref, it says "Kinkladze" or Juninho" more times than the other 20 players put together. Oldelpaso (talk) 20:19, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - I'm not personally convinced, but I have no objection to it. Sarastro1 (talk) 07:49, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"However, he instead opted to stay at Manchester City…" Need to lose either "however" or "instead"
"Manchester City's freefall…": Journalese?
"He had a reputation for playing defensive midfielders, which led to his Everton team being nicknamed the "Dogs of War".": I don't think the detail about Everton is necessary.
"He made his return at a muddy Vale Park": Is the state of the pitch relevant?
- Kinkladze was slight. His attributes were suited to a passing game, and completely unsuited to a physical battle played out in a quagmire. The match was a watershed moment in his City career. Going into a lot of detail for a single match would be undue weight, but I tried bringing it together with the Royle quote to highlight two themes of his final season at the club: getting kicked into the air at shabby football backwaters, and his fractious relationship with Royle. Similar thinking was behind the "Dogs of War" background – an attempt to explain Royle's seemingly paradoxical position of deciding his team would play better without its most gifted player. Oldelpaso (talk) 20:19, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - To be honest, if it is shown in the sources that this was a watershed moment, it is worth going into a little more detail. I don't think that the match comes across as pivotal in the way it is written at the moment, and the "muddy" comment seems a little odd out of context. Sarastro1 (talk) 07:49, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    - More detail added. Oldelpaso (talk) 18:30, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"that wasn't right... ...too often since his arrival": Why the repetition of the ellipsis? Just one is required.
- It appears that I have used ellipses incorrectly my entire life! Oldelpaso (talk) 20:19, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"…contained hardman Vinnie Jones,": Journalese and POV.
- Jones was notorious for his violent approach, moreso than any player in his era. The sentence could do with something to convey this, suggestions would be welcome. Oldelpaso (talk) 20:19, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - Maybe "Kinkladze was targeted by Vinnie Jones, a played with a reputation for a violent approach, even in the tunnel...". But to include this, I think it may need a ref for his reputation if this is not in the source already. Sarastro1 (talk) 07:49, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    - Reworded using a quote from a piece about Jones. Oldelpaso (talk) 19:07, 13 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"but calamitous defending, including a freak own goal": And again.
- Press reports of the match variously describe the first QPR goal as "comical", "a calamity" and "a horrendous mistake", but even these descriptions pale in comparison to those of the second, an own goal, which was unquestionably freakish, and is invariably included in those top-10s of best/worst own goals e.g. [2] [3] [4] [5]. Oldelpaso (talk) 20:19, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - Fair enough, but a more encyclopaedic wording is needed: maybe "but poor defending, culminating in an unusual own goal"? Sarastro1 (talk) 07:49, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    - Reworded. Oldelpaso (talk) 18:30, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"City no longer controlled their own fate": This is not really needed.
What about international football at this stage of his career? Sarastro1 (talk) 09:03, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Implemented or addressed except where I've commented. With regards to international football, the Wales games were something of a high water mark for Georgia. After this they were mostly cannon fodder, so Kinkladze rarely had the chance to shine. I'll see what I can add. Oldelpaso (talk) 20:19, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

More comments: I've read the whole article now, and looks good generally. Just a few more suggestions. Sarastro1 (talk) 08:21, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"but starts were a rare occurrence": "but he made few starts".
"Kinkladze was not ~~even~~ issued a squad number for his second season"
How was his tactical request to Smith received? Accepted? Ignored? It's kind of left hanging.
"and played the full 90 minutes in a 1–2 third round home defeat against Rangers.": Why does this need five references? Even for a more controversial statement, five refs seems excessive.
"for Rubin's consolation goal": Journalese.
The 5-1 win for Rubin seems to be covered in too much detail (and there is another "combined"!) for a relatively unimportant games. I don't think any other match receives so much.
"He provided an assist in four consecutive matches": Is there no better way to cover this than to use 4 refs?
"In the new season, Berdyev intended to switch to a 4–3–3 formation and use Kinkladze alongside Damani Ralph and Vladimir Bairamov in attack.": This seems an odd piece of phrasing. Did he or didn't he?
Why is Georgian national team linked in this section rather than earlier?
"despite reports to the contrary by some Russian press sources": Not really necessary.
I think the sections after Derby County suffer a little from overdetailing in places, which may reflect the source quality and coverage. Parts read like they are describing current news events. But not a huge problem, just needs a quick check.
"Unwillingness to tackle and accusations of a lack of effort were also the source of Joe Royle's omission of Kinkladze from his Manchester City side": Cause, rather than source, I think.Sarastro1 (talk) 08:21, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Sourcing does become a problem for the latter part of his career. There's little in English, so I received sourcing help from User:Jhony, a Russian speaker. Unfortunately, he is long inactive, so I cannot ask him about the Russian language sources, and I'm stuck for additional ones. I've removed a couple of parts; the 4-3-3 part isn't so relevant as Kinkladze got injured the first time the formation was used. The bit about Smith would need the help of a Russian speaker for me to reword, so I've removed it as well. For the assist refs, those sources are all I have, but I've bundled them into one. Not so tidy in the references section, but better than having it look unsightly in the body. Other comments from this batch should hopefully all be addressed. Oldelpaso (talk) 19:07, 13 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tentative support: Pretty happy with this now, although I would like a few reviews from football people before committing to a full support. I also want to have a last read through myself, but overall looks good. Sarastro1 (talk) 18:41, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Don't have time to read through the whole article now, but one thing from the first sentence: "also spelled as... Gio". Looking at the reference, it's clear that Gio was a nickname rather than an alternative spelling so this shouldn't be included. The others (Giorgi, Georgiou) are fine because they're just different ways of transliterating from Georgian, but Gio is definitely not. Big Dom 11:12, 13 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reworded to "or shortened to". Oldelpaso (talk) 19:07, 13 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OK, fair compromise. I'll try and have a look through the rest of the article now I've finished the one I was writing earlier. BigDom (talk) 20:42, 13 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Just minor comments over sourcing and prose, I'll have another look later on

"The team failed to win a single game in the first three months of the season" slight inaccuracy here. Checking the season article, they beat Wycombe Wanderers 4–0 in October, so perhaps it could be rephrased to "In the league, the team failed to win a single game..."
Ref 1 was published on BBC News – BBC Sport Online was only launched in 2000
Ref 20, 22, 26, 28 were published on The Independent on Sunday
Ref 68 was published on guardian.co.uk, not The Guardian newspaper Lemonade51 (talk) 19:10, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Oldelpaso (talk) 18:45, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

More comments Been meaning to return to this, apologies for the hold up:

Is it teammate, stated under Early life or team-mate used elsewhere?
Likewise be consistent with first team (is it that or first-team)?
Where's the citation for "Italian clubs became interested in Kinkladze after seeing footage of his performance, and the Italian press nicknamed Kinkladze the "Rivera of the Black Sea", but no concrete attempts to sign him took place."?
Should it be titled 'Club career' when it also includes his international career? Perhaps rename to 'Playing career'?

Otherwise happy to support. Refreshing article to read. Lemonade51 (talk) 20:09, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments –

Redundancy in "Kinkladze stayed with the club despite relegation to the Football League First Division in 1996, but the club continued to decline." Don't like the two "the club"s here, especially in the lead. Could make one into Manchester City.
- I still see this one. Giants2008 (Talk) 12:12, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - Whoops, definitely now done. Oldelpaso (talk) 12:52, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    - Still think there's one too many words in "stayed with the Manchester City", namely "the". Giants2008 (Talk) 02:03, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      - *wipes egg from face* I must be the world's worst proof reader. Sorry about that. Oldelpaso (talk) 09:38, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
~~Early career: There's no need for another Dinamo Tbilisi link here, given that there's one already in the previous section and one in the lead.~~
~~Manchester City: "Manchester City were relegated to First Division". Should "the" be added before First Division?~~
~~Ajax: Since Maradona was linked before, we don't need another link in the quote.~~
~~Derby County: A word too many in "but none resulted in the a contract offer."~~
~~Anorthosis: Why was the win over Trabzonspor historic?~~
~~Should "the" be added before Cypriot Super Cup?~~
~~Publisher of ref 111 should be italicized.~~
~~Conversely, Soccerbase shouldn't be italicized in refs 157–160.~~ Giants2008 (Talk) 02:37, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

All addressed. Oldelpaso (talk) 18:05, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Looks like a well-written and referenced article, but here are some comments

it would have been better if some images of him on the field were put (only if available)
- I agree entirely, but sadly no suitably-licensed ones exist. Oldelpaso (talk) 17:43, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think the following line is really appropriate for this article: In an effort to resolve his homesickness, his mother moved to Manchester to provide him with familiar food. It can be either wholly removed to replaced by His mother moved to Manchester to provide support
- I'm unsure. Clayton's book devotes a full page of material to this, with food clearly the most important aspect. "Support" seems vague to me, but perhaps there is another wording that would be suitable? Oldelpaso (talk) 17:43, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
COMMON NAME: Internazionale → Inter Milan
- While the article is currently at Inter Milan, it is currently the subject of a contentious Requested Move debate. Though Inter Milan is a commonly used name, it is also technically incorrect, a bit like saying Everton Liverpool. I would contend that it is better to educate our readers by using the proper form, particularly as it is wikilinked. Oldelpaso (talk) 17:43, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Kinkladze's former international team-mate → Kinkladze's former Georgia national teammate (only my own opinion, can be ignored)
I would recommend to title the last paragraph of Rubin Kazan section under "Post-retirement"
Also, shouldn't there be a section about his International career?
A small section about his personal life wouldn't hurt

If you have any question, please let me know. I'll try to contribute to the article myself as well if necessary. --Yerevanci (talk) 05:57, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

While writing the article I considered the possibility of both a separate personal life section and separate international career section but in each case decided against it. In the case of personal life, there is little in the public domain beyond what is already in the article, so the result would be a small stubby section, or the messy chronology that would result from tacking events later in his life to the current "Early life" section. Likewise, a "post-retirement" section would only be two sentences due to paucity of available sources.

His international career was a tougher call. Much of his international career was intertwined with his club career, this made me decide that the narrative of the article would be better served by including significant international matches as they occurred chronologically. Early on it was the Moldova match that piqued the interest of scouts in other countries, then the Wales games that alerted British clubs and press to his talent. Later his international involvement generally depended on how frequently he was playing at club level. Another factor was that Kinkladze never played in a major tournament, and for most of his career Georgia only won one or two competitive matches a year. The exception was Euro 96 qualifying where Georgia were third; Kinkladze's most notable matches in this period are covered in Early career. Oldelpaso (talk) 17:43, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.