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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/George Herriman/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 10:01, 14 April 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]

George Herriman edit

George Herriman (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Curly Turkey (gobble) 16:27, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because it is a comprehensive, well-illustrated article about one of the core early American cartoonists, who has been a primary influence on some of the best-known American cartoonists. His story has a wide appeal, especially his success at keeping his racial background a secret until decades after his death; its revelation has coloured interpretation of his work in the decades since. It would be nice if the article could be TFA on 13 October 2013, which is the 100th anniversary of the debut of his signature work, Krazy Kat. Curly Turkey (gobble) 16:27, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • FN43, 46, 47, 56: page formatting
  • Baetens: spell out UPNE
  • Check for doubled periods caused by template glitches
  • Seems to be some stray ref formatting at the bottom of Books
  • Pages for Cornog?
  • Be consistent in whether you include publishers for magazines/journals
  • Page for Chicago Daily Tribune obit?
  • Page for Kramer?
  • Use a consistent format for retrieval dates
  • Heer: italics
  • Compare italics for Mautner and CBR staff
  • What makes this a high-quality reliable source?
    • I assumed the {{Find a Grave}} template implied it was considered a reliable source. If not, I'll remove it. Curly Turkey (gobble) 00:22, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • I read the guidelins about usage in the template's documentation. As I've only used the photograph of her gravestone as a reference for her birth/deathdates, and have used no other information from Find a Grave, it appears to be acceptable usage. Curly Turkey (gobble) 01:39, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

—Nikkimaria (talk) 23:58, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: To try and get this review moving, I've been looking at the prose in the early sections, and have a few quibbles:

Lead
  • By "high arts" do you mean Fine art? A piped link would help.
    • According to the article, "fine art" is primarily applied to the visual and performing arts today; Seldes came from a literary background,a s did many of his other prominent admirers (such as Cummings). "High arts" is being contrasted with popular or lowbrow arts here. I'm not sure if Highbrow is the appropriate link here. Curly Turkey (gobble) 12:47, 18 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we need to list seven influenced artists in the lead?
    • I know...I've cut McDonnell, but it's hard to choose from the rest. Each of those left on the list are really the cream of the elite amongst cartoonists, cut from each decade of comics since Herriman; and they each claim KK not as an influence, but as a primary influence. Curly Turkey (gobble) 12:47, 18 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Early life
  • In the second sentence, the comma after "Creole mulattoes" affects the meaning. Is it all Creole mulattoes who "were considered free people of color[4] and were reportedly active in the early abolitionist movement", or just Herriman's line? If the latter, the comma should be shifted until after "people of color".
  • Are the ages of Herriman's parents at the time of his birth relevant?
  • "He graduated in 1897, and soon sold a sketch of the Hotel Petrolia in Santa Paula to the Los Angeles Herald." Unrelated facts should not be connected by an "and" in a single sentence. Suggest: "Soon after graduating in 1897, he sold a sketch of the Hotel Petrolia in Santa Paula to the Los Angeles Herald."
Early career in New York
  • "sneaked aboard" - not really encyclopedic? Sounds slangy in British English but maybe OK over there.
    • None of my dictionaries mark it as informal, including OCD, and it never seemed that way to me. Not that I'd fight for it if I were given an alternative. Curly Turkey (gobble) 12:47, 18 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Herriman appeared in the November 1902 issue of the literary magazine The Bookman and wrote of his profession self-deprecatingly..." Verbose: "In the November 1902 issue of the literary magazine The Bookman Herriman wrote of his profession self-deprecatingly..."
  • "Another of Herriman's obsessive characters, the Major, traveled the world..." Delete the second comma.

Haven't got any further yet, but will try to give it more attention soon. Brianboulton (talk) 12:05, 18 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Looking forward to it. I was afraid people were overlooking this article, thinking it was the George Harrison one below (how can people neglect the greatest American cartoonist, like, ever for just the third Beatle?! For shame!). Curly Turkey (gobble) 12:47, 18 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There's no accounting for folks' tastes. Incidentally, the third Beatle isn't getting much attention either. And I've just nominated yet another George... Brianboulton (talk) 23:39, 18 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments continued

Return to California (1906–1910)
  • "The bird-populated fantasy was an imaginative precursor..." Subjective adjectives are best avoided in encyclopedia text
New York again
  • "Critics do not hold regard the strip highly..." Something wrong there
  • "on July 26, a mouse threw a brick at the family cat..." I was slightly thrown by this on first reading; you should clarify that this is a cartoon event, not a real-life occurrence.
  • "undeliberately" is a made-up word. Maybe "spontaneously"? Ah, I see you've used "spontaneous" later; you could make that second one "impromptu" or "improvised".
    • "un–" is a productive prefix in English; grammatically, it can be added to pretty much anything, and thus most "un–" words will never be found in a dictionary. Curly Turkey (gobble) 21:54, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • That is generally true, but the prefix doesn't always work. You wouldn't, for example, say "unspitefully" or "unabruptly", to give just two examples. Also, it's not absolutely clear what you intend by "undeliberately". Since "deliberately" means "on purpose", does "undeliberately" mean "by accident", i.e. beyond the creator's control? That does not seem likely. Brianboulton (talk) 09:18, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • Dropped. There actually are examples in print sources of "unspitefully]" and "unabruptly" (Google Books links). I can see, though, that the meaning of "undeliberately" might not be clear to all readers (the intended meaning was "without deliberation").
  • I'm not convinced by "officemates" as a word. "Colleagues" would suffice, or "office colleagues".
    • Changed, though I've definitely heard "officemate" used before, and think it better suits the context. Curly Turkey (gobble) 21:54, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "At some point, Herriman visited Monument Valley in Arizona". Needs to be "had visited". Also, "at some point" sounds unnecessarily vague; Perhaps "Earlier in his career, Herriman had visited..."
    • I dropped "At some point". The source says it wasn't known when he visited, or how often. Changed the lines to "Herriman visited Monument Valley in Arizona and similar places in New Mexico and southern Utah, and incorporated the distinct forms of the desert landscape into his strips." Curly Turkey (gobble) 21:54, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link Enchanted Mesa
  • "which is the most famous piece of writing about the strip" Does the source say "famous"? Any such opinion should be ascribed to the source.
    • The sources do say it, and so do a lot of them. I just added three more that specifically use the adjective "famous". In comics studies circles, Seldes's essay is considered a key work, partly for historical reasons, but also partly for the quality of the essay itself. Curly Turkey (gobble) 21:54, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "its Hall of Fame in their April 1923 issue". Suggest alter "their" to "the"
California again...
  • "Herriman developed ties with members of the film industry, where he knew..." The "film industry is not a location to which "where" can be properly applied. I'd follow "film industry" with a semicolon, then "he knew..." etc.
  • "which Herriman made bold use of." This usage is frowned on in British usage, in favour of "of which Herriman made bold use", but North American perceptions may be different
Personal life
  • "sold his first Hollywood house, which had bought for $50,000..." Needs a small fix
  • This is a side comment, but I'm surprised that Merrifield was so hooked on Ford's "pacifism" that he could ignore his antisemitism.
    • You're surprised that a partially African-American man who drew jolly strips of a black man getting beaten up would be concerned with the plight of the Jews? Besides, antisemitism wasn't really stigmatized in the US until after the Eichmann trials; only retroactively has WWII been painted as the Americans valiantly rescuing the Jews. Curly Turkey (gobble) 21:54, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Race and identity
  • "A lil Eetiopium Mice, black like a month from midnights. Fuwi!" What on earth does that mean?
Reception and legacy
  • Cummings should be fully named and linked at first mention in the text (he is linked in the following section). The link in the caption is an optional courtesy.
Work
  • I would remove the ISBN numbers. The links don't take you to the books.

I have more or less limited my comments to prose issues, as I don't know the subject. My impression is that overall, this is an excellent and very informative article on an important and influential artist. I will be happy to support when the fixes are done. Brianboulton (talk) 12:49, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support: my numerous points have all been addressed, very substantially as I would have wished. I'm happy to support now: I just wish some other reviewers would give the article some attention. Brianboulton (talk) 22:19, 25 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

A few queries about spellings. Ordinarily I'd just change obvious typos, but in this article I hardly dare to. So perhaps you might check:

  • vaudevillean
Done. Curly Turkey (gobble) 22:30, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

*srtip

Done. Curly Turkey (gobble) 22:30, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

*comix

This is actually the accepted term for underground comix, as per the article title. Now protected with {{Not a typo}}. Curly Turkey (gobble) 22:30, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

*cirlces

Done. Curly Turkey (gobble) 22:30, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

*prepares top throw. Tim riley (talk) 20:20, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Why "hardly dare to"? Because it's an FAC? Curly Turkey (gobble) 22:30, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Not at all! I'm merciless at FAC (in a cuddly kind of way), but I suspected I was out of my depth, as you have proved in re comix. Excellent stuff. Happy to support. Tim riley (talk) 15:13, 2 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support – This article seems to me to meet all the FA criteria. Whenever I start reading a new FAC article on an unfamiliar subject I wonder if I am going to struggle or if it will make everything clear. This is in the latter category. Clear, full, well proportioned and referenced. Good stuff! – Tim riley (talk) 15:13, 2 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments – Looks good for the most part. I only have a few technical issues to point out:

  • Early life: "George Joseph Herriman was born to father, George Herriman, Jr." Is "his" missing before "father"?
  • New York again, and Krazy Kat: Note d should be moved to after the period.
  • California again, later career and death: The director by Tom McNamara should be piped so the reader doesn't see it.
  • Reception and legacy: Ref 95 should be moved to after the punctuation.

Giants2008 (Talk) 00:42, 5 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

          • Support – Now that the fixes above have been made, I'm satisfied that this meets all of the FA criteria. Nice work. Giants2008 (Talk) 00:05, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support A thorough and enjoyable article. Meets FA criteria.--Dwaipayan (talk) 03:44, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delegate's comment - I think we need an image review, at least one is missing a source. Graham Colm (talk) 05:39, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I guess that was the infobox image; I didn't upload it or add it to the article, and I can't find it in any of my books, so I have no idea where it came from. Google image search finds plenty of copies—from wikis in different languages. I've replaced it with another photo: File:George Herriman 1915-12-01.jpg—this one's better anyways, as it shows his face nearly straight-on. Curly Turkey (gobble) 11:26, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The publication date of this photograph, which is not given, might not be the same as the date when it was taken (1 December 1915). We need clearer evidence of the copyright status. Graham Colm (talk) 12:28, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I've misunderstood a lot about photograph copyrights. Does this mean that the 1902 wedding photo may not be PD if it turns out that it was never published for public consumption until it appeared in McDonnell, O'Connell & Havenon's book in 1986? Do photographs that are never publicly published ever fall into the public domain? Curly Turkey (gobble) 22:01, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is not something I fully understand because the law is complex. But if a photograph has never been published, I think the copyright expires around 70 years (or more) after the death of the photographer in most jurisdictions. The photographer in this case might have died relatively recently. We need someone with more knowledge on this to comment here. But I suspect the image is problematic in this regard because it is from a book published in 1986. What does it say in the book? If it says "copyright", it almost certainly still is. Also I notice that the source given for the Lead image says "© All Rights Reserved". Graham Colm (talk) 22:27, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if the image is from that book; it just happens to be the only book I have that has that image. I can find no credit for the photo (or any of the photos) anywhere in the book. I'll just go ahead and remove the problematic photos (I think they're just the infobox one, the wedding photo, and the family photo. I've found a self-portrait that was published in a magazine from 1922 to replace the current infobox image. Curly Turkey (gobble) 22:49, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Krazy Kat: The Comic Art of George Herriman has picture credits on p. 223, according to Amazon [2]. Graham Colm (talk) 22:57, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The "Picture Credits" are acknowledgements to those "who kindly provided original Herriman art"; they're credits to collectors who own the original cartoon pages that were reproduced in the book, and not photo credits. Curly Turkey (gobble) 23:03, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
OK, thanks for the clarification. Graham Colm (talk) 23:16, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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