Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Frank Hubert McNamara
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:40, 29 March 2009 [1].
Frank Hubert McNamara edit
Nominating this article on the only Australian airman to earn the Victoria Cross in World War I. Having let it 'bed down' for a couple of weeks following its successful GA- and A-Class nominations, on review I believe it meets the Featured Article criteria. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:40, 28 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Truco (talk · contribs)
- The following was found using WP:REFTOOLS, and the dabs and external links checker tools (found at the right).
There are duplications of this, a ref name should be used instead.
- Helson, "10 Years at the Top", p.19 | Multiple refs contain this content, a named reference should be used instead
There are duplicate ref names directed at different ref names.
- Helson p.19 Multiple references are given the same name
Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:47, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support This is a great article which fully meets the criteria. Nick-D (talk) 10:22, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support - a well written, well sourced and comprehensive article that meets the criteria. Well done! Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 13:26, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Images checked and are okay they're all from Australian War memorial site and in public domain but couldn't find the two plane images and one from CBE 1945 when i searched the Australian site, Tom B (talk) 14:48, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Tks - my error on DAAV00225A, featuring the Avro 504 with the cathedral - left the last 'A' off the ID, now corrected at Commons. However, the other aircraft one from the WWI section, and the last pic of his CBE investiture, can both be found by searching the AWM collections using the supplied IDs. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:02, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- i did search using the supplied ids and they did not appear to be there. can you supply links to them e.g. http://cas.awm.gov.au/photograph/SUK10310 Tom B (talk) 01:14, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Here the first one. The second one for some reason doesn't come up under the general search but only on the Collections Search, and I can't give you a useful link there because it times out after a short time. However, if you go to Collections Search (accessed via Collections in the left-hand menu on the main page) and type "UK2834" it really should come up, just did for me again...!. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:01, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- i did search using the supplied ids and they did not appear to be there. can you supply links to them e.g. http://cas.awm.gov.au/photograph/SUK10310 Tom B (talk) 01:14, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments Support
- Might just be my Firefox, but the first McNamara pic is causing some ugly whitespace between the first two WWI sections - can anything be done about this?
- 'Allied airmen had been hacked to death by enemy troops in similar situations, and McNamara saw that a company of Turkish cavalry was fast approaching Rutherford's position' - 'Hacked to death' seems a little POV, can this be reworded a little?
- Again, the three photos between the VC section and the 'Between the wars' section are causing a lot of white space - losing either the onf of him in the hopsital or the VC portrait wouldn't seem to damage the article and would make it neater.
- That's about it; quite a short article, but otherwise well-written. Skinny87 (talk) 15:35, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Tks Skinny. “Hacked” was the term used in the cited source and it seemed to be fairly standard terminology so I didn’t quote it. If you’re still concerned I guess I could put it in quotes, or else I’m open to suggestions about a suitable alternative…
- Surprises me about the white space… I actually test the look and feel of my major contributions on multiple platforms (IE on a 4:3-ratio screen and Firefox on a widescreen) to guard against that sort of thing (background as an IT apps developer and tester)! I’d therefore be a little dubious about mucking around with their placement – it seems to me to be a fairly localised sort of issue. If you still want to pursue, I could get you to send me a screenshot or two of how things appear to you… Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:04, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Thank you for consulting the additional book, just to ensure that the article is as comprehensive as possible. Karanacs (talk) 17:13, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Leaning toward oppose. I was impressed with the article, but I worry that it is not comprehensive. It seems unusual that the lone biography of this man was not consulted. When I checked the book description [2], it appears to include information not in this article. For example, " the difficulties of living with the expectations placed on someone in his unenviable position, being both constantly lauded by admirers or belittled by jealous detractors". Karanacs (talk) 16:03, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I have to admit, I didn't see this before, but ti's kinda worrying. Can you say why this soure hasn't been used, Ian? Skinny87 (talk) 23:52, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Tks guys. My response to this is two-pronged: idealistic and practical. In the first instance, I actually made a conscious decision not to seek out this book because I believe Further Reading sections are there for a reason, and if a comprehensive bio without major omissions can be put together from a variety of reliable online sources and general books, as I’ve attempted here, then I don’t think immersing oneself in a single-subject bio is necessary. I note that two reviewers here and others who reviewed at GA and MILHIST A-Class level seem to agree with that approach, which is similar to how I've approached other A/FA-Class level RAAF articles where there are single-subject bios or autobios available.
- On the practical side, Macklin’s Bravest relies heavily on A Hero’s Dilemma, and I’ve used Macklin fairly extensively, so info from the bio is there second-hand, as it were, already. It’s interesting that the RAAF web site review of A Hero’s Dilemma has been quoted as evidence that this article might be incomplete, when I’ve already included from other sources most of the key points in the review, e.g. the quotes “a brilliant escape in the very nick of time and under hot fire”, and “the last Officer for whom that high honour would have been predicted”, and references to the burden of being a hero and to him remaining in England, embittered at his perfunctory dismissal from the RAAF (though he was far from the only one in that situation after the war, as I’ve noted). Hence my take is that there's an appropriate level of detail and balance for a WP bio, though of course I welcome further discussion on this point. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:04, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The more I read the article, the more I think I'm leaning towards oppose; if the blurb of that biography is correct and McNamara felt " the difficulties of living with the expectations placed on someone in his unenviable position, being both constantly lauded by admirers or belittled by jealous detractors..." then I think it should be reflected in the article, which it doesn't appear to be. We get a single sentence about McNamara being retired, 'ostensibly' to make way for younger officers, but that implies it was for another reason, perhaps more sinister, which then isn't mentioned. Neither is there any real mention of any detractors or his feelings of the difficulties of his situation. All we get is a single sentence from the official historian with no explanation - it's almost tacked on. Needs far more detail. Skinny87 (talk) 10:56, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Skinny, I’m not sure if you read anything I said above but anyway, to settle this, I’ve located and begun reading a copy of this book at the Mitchell Library – should be finished tomorrow (admittedly it’s a much slimmer volume than I’d expected). In the meantime, be aware that the description that Karanacs found and quoted from earlier is actually the publicity blurb off the back cover of the book itself, so it should perhaps be treated with a bit of caution as a sober representation of the contents – after all, it's trying to sell the thing. The consensus of opinion among the many sources I employed in this article is not that McNamara was some tragic figure. The consensus is that he was an ordinary guy who one day did an extraordinary thing and that this may have been both a boon and a burden. Now if you feel that this should be expanded upon a little from the couple of sentences I’ve allocated to it, fair enough, and I accept your point that the quote from the official historian, Stephens, re. 'illuminating and burdening' his life might appear tacked on – I kind of thought it could look this way myself but wanted to see how it went in review and this is the first time anyone's remarked on it. Also the "ostensibly" should perhaps be rendered as "officially" - again, fair enough. Note, however, that the quote from Stephens cites A Hero's Dilemma, so it's Stephens' distillation of this aspect of McNamara's life and the language he uses suggests that he considers it worth mentioning, but not overblowing, which is how it appears based on everything else I've read. Macklin in Bravest contends that the 'boon and burden' thing could just as easily be said for a great many other VCs. Let's also remember that McNamara enjoyed a long career and received further decorations and promotion after his great deed. If his career ended with an enforced retirement that left him angry, so did those of Richard Williams, Stanley Goble, William Bostock, Henry Wrigley, Frank Lukis, and Harry Cobby – and others besides. Anyway, more tomorrow... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:20, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, I certainly can't fault you on your zeal and your excellent work - thanks for finding the book. I think I'd be fine if the Stephen's quote was just expanded on a little; I certainly take your point about the other RAAF officers and their retirements. Skinny87 (talk) 08:33, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, having read the book now, there’s obviously some more detail to use in the article, which I’ve added at appropriate points, but no major change to the thrust of what’s there already. If anything, the author seems to suggest that the VC was more a benefit than a hindrance. There’s some speculation that it may have kept him in uniform in the 1920s when some others were let go, and that much later it may have helped him retain an acting Air Vice Marshal’s rank when the RAAF wanted to revert him to substantive Air Commodore. However it’s all surmise, no official documentation is presented to indicate this was actually the case. As for him supposedly suffering from jealously and detractors, the author mentions this on the very last page but nowhere offers documentary evidence or even quotes from witnesses that clearly indicate this. Nor is there any suggestion that his forced retirement had anything to do with his being a VC who needed to be cut down to size – as mentioned earlier, he was just one of many senior officers who suffered this fate. The main idea that comes across is the belief that he was an ordinary man who did one extraordinary thing – as I suggested above – and who became famous because of this alone (that’s all the ‘dilemma’ of the title) so that’s what I’ve added to the last section. Because we have this now from A Hero’s Dilemma, I’ve also substituted the original Stephens quote for something more specific – see what you think... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:01, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, I certainly can't fault you on your zeal and your excellent work - thanks for finding the book. I think I'd be fine if the Stephen's quote was just expanded on a little; I certainly take your point about the other RAAF officers and their retirements. Skinny87 (talk) 08:33, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Skinny, I’m not sure if you read anything I said above but anyway, to settle this, I’ve located and begun reading a copy of this book at the Mitchell Library – should be finished tomorrow (admittedly it’s a much slimmer volume than I’d expected). In the meantime, be aware that the description that Karanacs found and quoted from earlier is actually the publicity blurb off the back cover of the book itself, so it should perhaps be treated with a bit of caution as a sober representation of the contents – after all, it's trying to sell the thing. The consensus of opinion among the many sources I employed in this article is not that McNamara was some tragic figure. The consensus is that he was an ordinary guy who one day did an extraordinary thing and that this may have been both a boon and a burden. Now if you feel that this should be expanded upon a little from the couple of sentences I’ve allocated to it, fair enough, and I accept your point that the quote from the official historian, Stephens, re. 'illuminating and burdening' his life might appear tacked on – I kind of thought it could look this way myself but wanted to see how it went in review and this is the first time anyone's remarked on it. Also the "ostensibly" should perhaps be rendered as "officially" - again, fair enough. Note, however, that the quote from Stephens cites A Hero's Dilemma, so it's Stephens' distillation of this aspect of McNamara's life and the language he uses suggests that he considers it worth mentioning, but not overblowing, which is how it appears based on everything else I've read. Macklin in Bravest contends that the 'boon and burden' thing could just as easily be said for a great many other VCs. Let's also remember that McNamara enjoyed a long career and received further decorations and promotion after his great deed. If his career ended with an enforced retirement that left him angry, so did those of Richard Williams, Stanley Goble, William Bostock, Henry Wrigley, Frank Lukis, and Harry Cobby – and others besides. Anyway, more tomorrow... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:20, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The more I read the article, the more I think I'm leaning towards oppose; if the blurb of that biography is correct and McNamara felt " the difficulties of living with the expectations placed on someone in his unenviable position, being both constantly lauded by admirers or belittled by jealous detractors..." then I think it should be reflected in the article, which it doesn't appear to be. We get a single sentence about McNamara being retired, 'ostensibly' to make way for younger officers, but that implies it was for another reason, perhaps more sinister, which then isn't mentioned. Neither is there any real mention of any detractors or his feelings of the difficulties of his situation. All we get is a single sentence from the official historian with no explanation - it's almost tacked on. Needs far more detail. Skinny87 (talk) 10:56, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(od) I think that's some excellent work, and I've accordingly moved to support the article. Skinny87 (talk) 16:29, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OPPOSE fails WP:NPOV —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.161.92.138 (talk) 00:54, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: above IP blocked for disruptive editing. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 01:10, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, thanks for your hard work on this. --Laser brain (talk) 13:32, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Comments- This is looking pretty good, but I found a few issues I hope can be addressed, as follows:[reply]- I've seen "Teachers Training College" written as "Teachers' Training College" (with apostrophe); which is correct?
- Heh, yes, ADB has "Teachers'" (plural possessive) and AWM uses "Teachers" (plural only). His personnel file annoyingly shows only "TTC" and the other sources I have available don't mention it. Looking on the web, you find both but the preponderance seems to be "Teachers'" (plural possessive), so I think we go with that... I've substituted ADB for the existing AWM citation as well (they essentially said the same thing - apart from the apostrophe)...
- "He was seconded to No. 42 Squadron RFC ..." Unsure what being "seconded" means; it should be treated as jargon (wikilink or explain)
- Wikilinked.
- "Completing his course at Uphavon, McNamara was posted ..." It may be subjective, but "Upon completing his course ..." reads better to me.
- I think I left out "upon" because I said he was posted "in August" in the same sentence and "upon" sounds like the posting happened immediately, which may not have been the case (though admittedly it probably was). I could go with "Having completed his course..." if you think that's a fair compromise.
- I found MoS problems, particularly with non-breaking spaces (ex. you didn't consistently have them between "No. 1". I fixed what I saw but please recheck. Also, please check the style for armaments like "4.5-inch" shells—I'm not sure about that hyphen.
- Think we've got all the nbsp instances re. unit numbers. The shell-size hyphen makes sense to me per what I understand to be standard double-barrelled adjective rules, but in any case the source I've cited for it employs one - so I think it should stay...
- "Having effected what was described in the Australian official history of the war as ..." Surely, "affected".
- I've checked my dictionary to confirm I was using the word I meant and it defines the verb effect as "produce an effect", as opposed to the verb affect meaning "assuming artificially". Of course I'm open to suggestions if it still sounds confusing (considered "executed" but it sounded too planned and deliberate) but in any case I don't think "affected" is appropriate...
- I've seen "Teachers Training College" written as "Teachers' Training College" (with apostrophe); which is correct?
- --Laser brain (talk) 21:08, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. It's nicely-written, well-sourced and comprehensive. If I have one suggestion, it's to retitle "Early career" to "Early life" or similar; I don't think McNamara's birth and early education should be called a career in this context, given the strong link the word has with military life. Otherwise, nice work. Steve T • C 20:14, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.