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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Fatima Whitbread/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 26 November 2022 [1].

Fatima Whitbread edit

Nominator(s): BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:07, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the former European and World champion javelin thrower. In 1986, she became the first British athlete to set a world record in a throwing event. Her rivalry with Tessa Sanderson was much-written about, and as Sanderson's article reached FA status earlier this year, I thought I'd try for the same for Whitbread's article. Many thanks in advance for improvement suggestions. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:07, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Mujinga, Mike Christie, Edwininlondon and Sportsfan77777 who all contributed to the Tessa Sanderson FAC discussion, and Alanna the Brave who peer reviewed the Whitbread article; do you have any comments for this one please? (Apologies for the ping if not.) Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:21, 14 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Images are appropriately licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:50, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Initial comments edit

  • "According to her account, she had taken up an interest in track and field events, after being inspired" - don't think that second comma is needed
  • "who Vedad had previously met" => "whom Vedad had previously met"
  • That's all I got as far as the end of the "early life" section, I will look at the rest later if that's OK...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:03, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
More comments edit
  • "At the 1982 Commonwealth Games, Whitbread took the gold medal, throwing 58.86 m (193 ft 1+1⁄4 in), which was 5.6 m (18 ft 4+1⁄4 in) behind champion Sue Howland, from Australia" - she threw less than Howland, but still won gold??
  • "Temple had sexually harassed Shireen Bailey, who Temple coached" => "Temple had sexually harassed Shireen Bailey, whom Temple coached"
  • I would say that the TV/radio table would look nicer with the programme titles left aligned, and would also opine that A Question of Sport should sort under Q and the two programmes starting with "The" under the next word of the title
  • Think that's all I got for the rest of the article -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:48, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks ChrisTheDude. I've amended the article in line with your suggestions. I also made some of the details that weren't part of programme title into footnotes. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:06, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Lee Vilenski edit

I'll begin a review of this article very soon! My reviews tend to focus on prose and MOS issues, especially on the lede, but I will also comment on anything that could be improved. I'll post up some comments below over the next couple days, which you should either respond to, or ask me questions on issues you are unsure of. I'll be claiming points towards the wikicup once this review is over.

Lede
  • I think we either need to go for importance of chronological in the lede. I can't imagine that winning the Euros is more important than winning the World championships, so either I'd change those two around or I would put the lede entirely in chronological order. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 16:47, 16 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • voted BBC Sports Personality of the Year in 1987. - this is such a big award, I'd suggest adding to the opening para. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 16:58, 16 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've amended the lead to be more in importance, ie. World Record (first in throwing for a British athlete); World Champion; Olympian. Added the BBC award to first para. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:39, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Prose
Additional comments

Additionally, if you liked this review, or are looking for items to review, I have some at my nominations list. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 16:43, 16 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks, Lee Vilenski. Let me know if anything else is required. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:40, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source review edit

Spotchecks not done

  • Is there a reason to format books in Publications and References differently? Is there a reason to sometimes include subtitle and other times not? Is there a reason to cite editions of Fatima from different publishers?
    • Now standardised for Whitbread's autobiographies. I've added the Google Books link for Adie - I've mentioned the chapter in the citation as there are no page numbers given there. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:42, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • Sometimes these include location and sometimes not - should be consistent. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:44, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • What makes the Mirror a high-quality reliable source? brinkster.net? gbrathletics?
    • gbrathletics is (or was) owned by Athletics Weekly (see homepage) and is linked to by the National Union of Track Statisticians). Some of the data from the site migrated via athleticsdata.com to thepowerof10.info. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 09:09, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • Okay to keep, but make sure formatting is consistent. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:44, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
        • I've included a publisher parameter for the gbrathletics refs but not for others as per "Omit where the publisher's name is substantially the same as the name of the work" at Template:Cite web. Please let me know if I've missed something. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 09:34, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
          • No, I did - I was confused by GBR Athletics vs gbrathletics
    • Per WP:DAILYMIRROR, there is no consensus on the Mirror. Like some other editors in the discussions, I believe it's OK for the reporting of uncontoversial facts. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 10:17, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • The fact it's citing is an extraordinary claim, and if there's no consensus on basic reliability I don't think we'd be able to clear the high-quality bar. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:44, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
        • OK, I've replaced the source and cut the text not supported by the new source. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 09:34, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • Although trackfield.brinkster.net is widely used on Wikipedia, I'm unable to find or make a claim for its reliability. As I couldn't find an alternative sources, I've removed that section. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 10:17, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN38: archiving a login page isn't particularly helpful
  • FN64 is missing author. Ditto FN66, check throughout
  • FN79 is incomplete. Ditto FN83, check throughout. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:14, 23 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks, Nikkimaria. Let me know if anything else is required. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:42, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Alanna the Brave edit

@BennyOnTheLoose: I'll take a new look at this article and supply some comments over the next 2-3 days. Best, Alanna the Brave (talk) 13:59, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Alrighty -- I've read through the prose and checked photo licensing/captions/alt text. The article is looking really solid to me (it reads well and seems clear and comprehensive), and I have only a few suggestions for improvement:
  • Infobox photo would benefit from alt text
  • Amended. Let me know if you have a suggestion for a more descriptive caption. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:21, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Since this particular photo is included for the purpose of showing readers Whitbread's physical appearance, I think it needs a little more detail. Suggestion: "A middle-aged woman with medium-dark skin tone and short black hair smiles at the camera." Alanna the Brave (talk) 15:04, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I've used that text. 15:09, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
  • For consistency, the infobox "personal best" should perhaps be listed with measurement conversion too
  • Awkward sentence in Later Career: "with a throw that although it was her best of the season, was some four metres less...". --> Could change to "with a throw that, although her best of the season, was some four metres less..."
  • In media: was Fatima Whitbread: Growing Up in Care a special, a stand-alone documentary, a series episode or something else?
  • It was a stand-alone documentary - I've added this to the text, with an additional source. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:21, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lastly, although I can't find this discussed in MOS, I'll just posit a personal suggestion for changing the wording where Cliff Temple's suicide is first mentioned. "Committed suicide" may still be common terminology, but an increasing number of mental health organizations and media outlets [2] [3] recommend against using this, as "commit" links back to potentially stigmatizing ideas around suicide being a crime or sin. Alternatives include "died by suicide" or "took his own life".
This looks much better, although I'm looking at that paragraph again and I'm thinking the timing/relation of events could also be better clarified. Temple died in early 1994, but when exactly did the inquiry take place? And was Norman's job loss directly related to the inquest's decision, or a separate event? It may help to change verb tense forms: for example, change "it emerged" to "it had emerged" if the inquest took place before Norman's previously-mentioned job loss. Alanna the Brave (talk) 15:04, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've reworked this - hopefully it's clearer now. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:09, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@BennyOnTheLoose Hmm -- it's still not reading quite as clearly as I would like (I see Mike Christie is also looking at this para in comments below, he may have helpful thoughts). I think I'd now suggest cutting back on some detail and more concisely summarizing Temple's investigation into the athletic club. Alanna the Brave (talk) 02:17, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Follow-up: the para on Temple is now much improved and much clearer. No further quibbles! Alanna the Brave (talk) 16:00, 26 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Best, Alanna the Brave (talk) 17:21, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Reworked further; let me know what you think. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 17:29, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks, Alanna the Brave. Let me know if there is anything else. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:21, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@BennyOnTheLoose: Thanks for the good improvements -- only two more comments added above (re: alt text & Temple inquest). Alanna the Brave (talk) 15:04, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@BennyOnTheLoose: I've done another readthrough today, and you've addressed all the comments/concerns I had. I'm happy to put forward my support for this FAC. Excellent work! Alanna the Brave (talk) 16:00, 26 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Mike Christie edit

  • The sentence starting "Whitbread, whilst still recovering" is a bit awkward. It would be a little simpler if we made it chronological. How about "A few days before the 1984 Summer Olympics, Whitbread had a stomach operation but was still able to travel to the Games and compete. She finished in the bronze medal position..."?
  • In the "World Record" section I'm not clear on what some of the "longest throw" phrases really mean. We have "73.68 m ... the second-longest throw of all time by a woman" but since that's shorter than her qualifying round throw of 77.44 m it appears she has both the longest-ever throws by a woman. Then "76.64 m ... was the third-longest of all time", but this is longer than the "second-longest" of 73.68 m. Are these describing the situation as it was when she made those throws? That is, 76.64 is only third-longest because between the 1986 and 1987 throws other throws had made the top list?
  • Yes. Her throw of 73.68 m in the main competition at the European Championships was indeed the second-longest throw by a woman, behind her own record of 77.44 m set in qualifying for the final. Felke later set a new record of 79.80 m; Whitbread's 76.64 m in 1987 was behind Felke's 79.80 and her own 77.44, as the third-longest ever at the time it was thrown (in September 1987). 23:12, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
    Can we add “at that time” or something similar to make this clearer? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:44, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we need three separate quotes about the feud with Sanderson, all saying more or less the same thing?
  • Does the sentence starting "Margaret Whitbread was also the national coach..." imply that Margaret Whitbread controlled who could participate in international events? If so, it should be clearer; if not, what's the relevance?
  • Amended. I suspect the coach could exert influence, but, as far as I know, selection was by a panel. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:12, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    The change is an improvement, but now I’m wondering why we mention the number of events Sanderson and Whitbread competed at that year. The implication is that Sanderson would have needed official support to compete as much as Whitbread, but if that’s so we should say so. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:44, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've expanded on this a bit and added a quote from Sanderson. (That source does also suggest excessive fees demanded by Sanderson as a possible reason, so on reflection perhaps that section about appearances up to June 1985 should be deleted, or the possibility of it being due to a fees issue mentioned.) BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:04, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does the following sentence mean Sanderson threatened to boycott all athletics events, because of the payment differences, or that she threatened to boycott only those events where there was a payment difference?
  • According the the source, first cited, "[Sanderson] had vowed not to throw in Britain this summer..."; but I found an earlier source (now added) that specified this related to a series of six official events. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:12, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Sanderson also objected to the endorsement that the Whitbreads had given to Howland, from Australia...": suggest "Sanderson also objected to the Whitbreads' endorsement of Sue Howland, who competed at the 1990 Commonwealth Games after a two-year doping suspension, since Howland was Australian, and Sanderson felt they should have supported British athletes instead". Or perhaps a full stop after "suspension" and drop "since".
  • The sequence of events around Temple's suicide doesn't seem quite clear. Did Norman's threats emerge (presumably meaning made public in some way?) before Temple's suicide? Perhaps separate the threats/smears from the public evidence of those threats/smears, since the threats were of course not at the same time as the revelation of them.
  • Reworked further; let me know what you think. (I couldn't find any mention of the threats or smears in the press before the reporting of the inquest; later press reports are evidence that at least some journalists knew before the inquest that Norman was speading false rumours; e.g. "Neil Wilson, a very experienced athletics writer, recounted in the Daily Mail how he had told Norman in the late summer that Temple had enough on his plate ... without the unwarranted allegations that Norman had been putting around the athletics world about his coaching of female athletes" - Pitt, Nick (6 February 1994) "Beginning of the end for a bully", The Sunday Times p.2/6) BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 17:50, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Definitely better. I would omit that extra info; it's not the kind of hard journalism one would want for this sort of thing. One last suggestion: how about moving footnote [a] into the main text? That denial is pretty important to reader understanding. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:28, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Many thanks, Mike Christie. I've moved that note into the main text. Let me know if there's anything else. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 00:24, 26 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:14, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:25, 26 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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