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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Fanny Bullock Workman/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via MilHistBot (talk) 03:58, 21 September 2014 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Fanny Bullock Workman edit

Nominator(s): Adam Cuerden (talk), Figureskatingfan (Christine), and Wadewitz, 03:04, 5 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Fanny Bullock Workman, mountaineer, rock climber, suffragette, and feminist. It was one of the last articles being worked on by Adrianne Wadewitz before her untimely death, and between her excellent work and those of us wishing to finish it, we'd like to raise this up in her memory.

Okay, so what have I done? Well, I've reviewed it, fixed up some copyediting, checked and improved the images - probably will try to improve them a bit more through restoration and such, but that's surely not a requirement before nominating here - and her books are more than amply covered by my local library. So, let's do this! Adam Cuerden (talk) 03:04, 5 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Comments from EddieHugh

  • Something to get out of the way early on: there are too many quotations that are unattributed and that could be paraphrased. e.g., in Move to Europe and cycling tours, "the role of "devoted mother" and instead became an "adventurer and author"" (can be paraphrased; if not, attribute them); "lyrical descriptions"; "The Workman's works are colonialist in that they describe the people they meet and observe as "at best as exotic or unusual, at worst as primitive or even subhuman"" (be clear about who wrote that); "commonplace" (surely this can be reworded... it's only one word).
  • I'm wary of what appear to be editorial summaries. e.g., "Popular reviewers, on the other hand, enjoyed the book. One reviewer in The Standard, wrote "We have no hesitation in saying that Dr. and Mrs. Workman have written one of the most remarkable books of travel of recent years."[16]" If No. 16 is the source of that first, summarizing, sentence, then add 16 explicitly. If it's not, then the first sentence needs a different source or to be cut. Another example: "Their rivalry demonstrated that women could climb in the remotest and most difficult terrain of the world, and that they were equal to male mountaineers" (needs a direct source, as it's hard for the reader to judge if this is the writer's synthesis or has been asserted explicitly by others).
I went through and sourced the quotes some more and did some paraphrasing, as per your request, which I believe will do away with the editorializing, even though I think that Wadewitz's method follows how quotes are handled in some academic literature. When Adam gets a hold of the sources, he can check for accuracy.
  • Small things: "the 45 miles (72 km)-long" (the hyphen is needed, but "miles" must be singular; there are several examples); multiple sources together should be in numerical order; use same date formatting throughout (e.g., infobox dob and dod differ); either abbreviate months or don't (don't is preferable – MOS:MONTH). EddieHugh (talk) 16:32, 6 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I've fixed the above, which was due to use of the convert template. I'm pretty sure I got them all; perhaps someone can go behing me and catch what I've missed or correct any errors.
Thank you for your comments; My sources are at the library, but I'll fix what I can without them tonight, and try to fix the library ones within a day or two (presuming Christine doesn't get to them first). Adam Cuerden (talk) 17:16, 7 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I add my thanks for your comments; they'll make for a stronger article. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 19:57, 8 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

SupportComments from Hamiltonstone. A worthy article aabout an important figure, and glad to see Adrianne's work continuing.

  • There was some pretty dire repetition early in the prose - sentences using the same word twice etc. I've tried to iron some out, and it got better as i went through.
  • "After his death, according to Pauly, Workman, using the bicycle to achieve it, she ..." very clunky. Suggest you get rid of the reference to the bicycle altogether here, and just have "After his death, according to Pauly, Workman...", and then introduce cycling early in the following para.
The reason for the clunkiness is to demonstrate the importance of bicycles, which provided women with more freedom of movement, in the feminist movement. That's why I think that it should remain where it is. I agree with you that it's clunky language, so I did this: "After his death, according to Pauly, Workman, through her bicycle tours..."
  • They really only carried 20lbs of luggage each? Are we certain we have the source correct on this? That is staggeringly light, unless they had porter-cyclists behind them!!
This is from the Pauly source, which I don't have access to. Adam needs to consult the source to be sure, but I'm inclined to WP:AGF that Wadewitz was accurate.
  • Pinnacle peak section - something needs to be done about the repetition of the peak being her altitude record - it is described para one and then set out again at the start of para 2.
I think the reason it's described in this way is because the first para talks about how she did it and the second one talks about how she proved that she had done it; i.e., defending that she broke the record. Maybe if you're more specific about what you want changed, I can follow your suggestion here.
I think I;ve fixed it. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:41, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I didn't get past the pinnacle peak section.
Ha! Good one! ;)

May get back some time. hamiltonstone (talk) 13:02, 26 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, eagerly anticipating more. And thanks for your copy-editing. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:33, 26 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, gone through to the end, and have fixed the other things I found. I think I'm done.
  • I took a brief look at the sources and the formatting looked sound. Any particular reason there are lots of &ndash; rather than just straight endashes?

Thanks for your efforts to continue the work of one of my favourite wikipedians. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:41, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

HTML codes for ndashes are common amongst people who either often write HTML off Wikipedia, or who started editing Wikipedia before the character insert tools got added to the edit interface. &ndash; is preferred in HTML, I believe, but I also believe the Wikicode can do that HTML conversion for you. That said, it's easier for an editor in the fixed-width font of the edit window to tell hyphens from en- and em-dashes if the HTML is used, which likely makes it a bit easier to proofread. In short, no strong reason to do it, but no reason to change it. Adam Cuerden (talk) 04:56, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
OK, thanks Adam. hamiltonstone (talk) 06:15, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Dank edit

  • "The Workmans left their children with nurses while they took long trips and even missed their daughter's wedding in 1912 while exploring in the Karakoram. In 1893, Siegfried died from a combination of influenza and pneumonia. After his death, according to Pauly, Workman, through her bicycle tours, "aggressively pursued an alternative identity, one that liberated her from the conventional responsibilities of wife and mother and allowed for her interests and ambitions".": Would it work to put the first sentence (1912) after the other sentences (1893)?
This is how I dealt with this: "The Workmans left their children with nurses while they took long trips.[14] In 1893, Siegfried died from a combination of influenza and pneumonia. After his death, according to Pauly, Workman, through her bicycle tours, "aggressively pursued an alternative identity, one that liberated her from the conventional responsibilities of wife and mother and allowed for her interests and ambitions".[15] They missed their daughter's wedding in 1912 while exploring in the Karakoram.[14]"
  • "The books describe the people, art, and architecture of the areas through which the couple journeyed; they were aware of contributing to the genre of travel writing, commenting on other writers in their own works.": I wasn't sure of the exact meaning. I went with "The books describe the people, art, and architecture of the areas through which the couple journeyed and comment on other writers' similar works, contributing to the genre of travel writing." Correct that if it's wrong, please.
I think your version isn't correct (plus, it's grammatically incorrect); to fix it, I changed the first 2 sentences in the paragraph: "Together, the Workmans explored the world and co-wrote eight travel books, which describe the people, art, and architecture of the areas in which they journeyed. The Workmans were aware of their contribution to the genre of travel writing as they commented on other writers in their own works."
Everything looks good; thanks for the review. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 03:45, 11 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sure thing. The changes look good. I was very sorry to hear about Adrianne ... she was quite kind to me when I needed it. - Dank (push to talk) 12:16, 11 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. I'll add notes here as I go through the article; it may take me a day or so.

  • Why is "Himalaya" rather than the more usual "Himalayas" used?
    • It's technically more correct - "Himalaya" is already plural. Though Workman uses "Himalayas", so it's debateable Adam Cuerden (talk) 13:05, 15 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      OK. Looking around on the web, it appears a shift is underway towards "Himalaya"; it's not something I was aware of. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:25, 16 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd suggest adding an "American English" template; I was about to change "The couple was ..." to "The couple were ..." but caught myself.
  • I think it would be good to mention a couple of dates in the lead; by the time they reach 23,000 feet I have no idea within 20 years of when that might have happened. Perhaps the year of their marriage, and the year they reached that altitude?
  • There are too many direct quotes, I feel. I don't see any reason why some of these should be preserved as quotes, rather than reformulated. There are dozens of them. I can see the value of some, but for example is there any reason to preserve "contributed significantly to the sport's evolution from strenuous recreation into serious, regulated competition" in the author's original words?
I went through (a couple of days ago; I was out of town over the weekend, so it was all I had time to do) the quotes and tried to paraphrase as much as I could. It's likely I could've done more, but I think that what I done goes far in fulfilling this request. Let me know if you think that I need to do more.
That's certainly better. (I cleaned up a couple of stray quotes left over.) I'd remove more quotes than you did, but to some extent it's a matter of taste. There are one or two I really don't see the value of, though; could you rephrase the following, which seem low value to me: "slow and uncooperative" (perhaps "difficult to work with"?), "triumph", "moved to establish themselves as the foremost authorities on thin air", "was greatly interested in the higher education of women and in their advancement to an equality with men in social, literary, scientific, and political fields" (how about "...and Bryn Mawr; the bequests were demonstrative of her long-lasting interest in the advancement of women's rights, and her belief that they were the equals of men", or something similar?), and "modern equipment coupled with team climbing enhanced the success and reduced the risk of such ventures"? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:40, 21 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Would you have any objection to me attempting some further rephrasing myself? I don't have access to most of the sources, but I could probably do a couple, and see what you think. I did see your note above about Adrianne's approach mirroring academic usage, but I think encyclopedic writing is different. I have to say the quotes are the only thing that are preventing me from supporting at this point. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:02, 21 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have no problem with that at all, go for it. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:06, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Can you check and let me know if any of the changes go against the intention of the original source? Once that's done I'll support; there are a couple of comments left, but they're minor. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:44, 23 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "However, at times they are aware of their own biases, demonstrating that the people they encounter see them in a similar light": I don't quite follow this. Do you mean that the people they encounter saw the Workmans as exotic, just as the Workmans saw them as exotic? If so, the phrasing doesn't work -- being aware of their biases doesn't demonstrate that the people they encounter saw them in a certain way. Perhaps "However, at times they make it clear that the people they encounter see them in a similar light, demonstrating that they were sometimes aware of their own biases".
Changed as per your request.
  • "spent more time seeking out ancient history": shouldn't this be something like "spent more time seeking out ancient historical sites"?
Actually, the context doesn't support your interpretation. The Workmans wanted to learn about ancient texts and their background, so they were more interested in history than meeting contemporary people in the areas. I agree that it was unclear, though, so I exchanged "seeking out" with "learning about", so it now reads, "They were eager to learn about the culture that had produced these epics and spent more time learning about ancient history than interacting with living people."
  • There are two consecutive paragraphs that begin "After their first trip to the Himalaya".
I changed the first paragraph to: "After travelling to the Himalaya the first time..."
  • I think the section breaks are not ideally placed. Currently you have "Move to Europe and cycling tours" and then "Mountaineering in the Himalaya" as consecutive top level sections, but the second of these actually continues a narrative begun in the middle of the first section. I think it would be better to have a section break before the start of the entire 1897-1900 trip. You could treat the mountaineering in the Himalayas during that trip as a subsection, with another section for the later similar exploits. With the current structure it feels odd to read "After their first trip to the Himalaya" at the start of a new section, and realize we're not moving forward in time, we're talking about part of the trip discussed above.
I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. Since I don't want to follow your instructions incorrectly, would you mind making the changes you suggest? If we don't like them, we can revert them back and go from there.
OK, done -- see what you think. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:57, 21 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm good with your changes, thanks for making them. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:06, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The mention of the Siegfriedhorn doesn't say, as Plint does, that the name is no longer in use for that peak; I think that should be mentioned. It would be even better to give the current name of the mountain, but I doubt it's possible to figure out which it is.
  • Similarly, it would be nice to give the modern name of Mount Bullock Workman, if it can be determined. I see that Fallen Giants refers to it as a moderate peak; should it really be listed in the infobox as a notable ascent -- particularly if it can't be currently identified?
I added a note stating that Pauly called them "long forgotten" names. I think this satisfies what you ask. I'd like to keep Mt. Bullock Workman in the infobox because it was notable at the time.
I tweaked the note a bit; revert if you wish. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:34, 21 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After their 1908 trip, the couple stopped exploring": the 1908 trip appears to have lasted until 1912, according to the account above, so it would be a bit less confusing for the reader if this were referred to as the "1908-1912" trip, I think.
Done.
  • Is the nature of her final illness given in the sources? If so, I think it should be noted in the article.
I dunno. I don't have access to the sources in question, so I'll leave it to Adam to find out.
  • "In her writings, Workman describes herself" and "She demonstrates that women are strong enough..." -- should be "described" and "demonstrated", I would think -- you don't use the present tense in the surrounding text.
Done.
  • "Ultimately, the Workmans were some of the first mountaineers to grasp that ...": why "ultimately"?
Done.
  • A search of newspapers.com finds a sentence reviewing what appears to be a piece of fiction she wrote in 1885, published in the April and May issues of New England Magazine. The article doesn't mention that she published fiction; if this can be sourced, I think it would be worth mentioning.
I have a subscription to newspapers.com and I wasn't able to find the review you're talking about. Could you provide a more specific citation, please?
Sure: here is a clipping of it. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:40, 21 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 23:17, 19 August 2014 (UTC) -- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:48, 15 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Mike, for the clipping. Added info as per your request. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:06, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Tim riley Three minor points on orthography. Running the article through the spell-check with the AmEng setting switched on, I find it suggests "buffeted" for "buffetted" and "submited" for "submitted", and boggles, as do I, at "Club Alpin Francais" without a cédille. As to the first and second, above, I don't know if Microsoft's US spell-check is reliable ("submited" looks odd to me) but I just mention the matter for consideration. – Tim riley talk 13:38, 16 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the spelling use is correct. To be honest, I'd trust Adrianne more than MS. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 23:23, 19 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Another point of spelling. One can argue it variously – as Fowler puts it, "my pedantry is your scholarship, his reasonable accuracy, her irreducible minimum of education and someone else's ignorance" – but it does seem perverse that the blue link reads "Himalaya" when the WP article to which it links has as its title the familiar "Himalayas". I believe the former is more purist, but do we want to get into "these data" territory, cf insisting that "bimbo" is male, the plural of cello is "celli" and "gild the lily" should be "paint the lily". All perfectly true from the purist point of view, but such pedantry makes Wikipedia look a bit out of touch, me judice. – Tim riley talk 23:37, 21 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note

August is a bit of a busy month; I apologise if I'm slow in responding to issues during this period, but will get to all responses ASAP. Adam Cuerden (talk) 08:18, 17 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Leaning support. A few comments.

Lede
  • " The Workmans began their journeys" this is slightly ambiguous, it sounds like each journey started off with bicycling and then went on to something else. Maybe "began their travels"?
Done.
Early life
  • "her privilege",[1] and a small number" I'd be inclined to split the sentence at the comma, but I can see it both ways.
Done as per your suggestion.
  • "received his medical training at Harvard." was he a doctor? The article is not clear on this point.
Well, I would think that it's self-evident that his medical training meant that he was a doctor. Should I put the title "Dr." in front of his name?
  • "Workmans disliked the provincial nature of life in Worcester," hm, not sure that I care for this way of saying that they lived there.
Added the phrase, "where they resided".
  • " on which her guide was Peter Taugwalder" this seems not to match the first part of the sentence. What does "on which" refer to?
I removed "on which" and separated the two thoughts with a semi-colon.
Labor issues
  • Did the return to Darjeeling end their journey?
The sources are unclear about that, although they are clear that the labor issues described occurred throughout their voyages. That's why I divided the paragraph. Hopefully, my solution clears up the confusion.
  • The paragraph could be profitably divided, possibly after "Darjeeling"
Ah, great minds... ;)
Mountaineering in the Himalaya
  • "they could not have descended to a safe altitude in time" In time for what?
Replaced "in time" with "before altitude sickness set in".
Pinnacle Peak
  • "giving Workman the record at the time" possibly "confirming Workman's record".
Done.
Legacy
  • "She demonstrated that women are strong enough to thrive outside the home " this seems a bit ... extreme to me. I don't think there was any doubt that women could thrive outside the home even before Workman. Nellie Bly, for example.
The statement follows the sources. And there was certainly doubt; Workman, along with Bly, wanted to provide more evidence of it.
  • " PhD candidates" is this not more commonly Ph.D.?
I think that both are correct, but I changed it to your spelling.
Works
  • "In the Ice World of Himálaya ..." this book is mentioned with a slightly different title in the text.
Correct title is "in": corrected it in the text.
That's it. Looking forward to supporting.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:54, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, User:Wehwalt. Sorry it took me a little while to address this; it's been a little busy. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 19:35, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done. (I am not very good at correctly formulating my own references so may miss some things.) Cwmhiraeth (talk) 18:35, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Be consistent about how you format dates.
  • ref15 - formatting
  • ref24 - incomplete
How is this incomplete?
Well, its ref 25 now and needs a year, page numbers etc. and why not put it in the"Cited sources"? Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:03, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
After some digging around, I discovered an error in the source formatting, which I have fixed. I must say, I started to have a little panic attack; I mean, it's not like I could've asked what Adrianne meant to do! Yikes!
  • ref40 - where is this from?
Seems clear to me; perhaps the numbering has changed since your review?
Its ref41 now, Plint's comments Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:03, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, thanks for the clarification. Plink is a source listed in "Cited sources" section; this is an acceptable way to handle notes like this.
  • Jordan, Jennifer (2009) - capitalisation
  • How about using two columns for the references?
Um, the refs are already in two columns. Perhaps you mean the "Cited sources" section? If so, I disagree.
Its interesting you say that. They are not in 2 columns on my monitor and occupy two and a half screens of vertical height. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:03, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I changed the column width from 20 to 30 and I see three columns; perhaps that will fix it for you.
  • What is the rationale behind putting most, but not all of your sources in the "Cited sources" section?
"Cited sources" is a Bibliographic list, while "References" are the specific pages cited from "Cited sources" and on-line accessible sources. Another title for "Cited sources" is "Works cited"; both are accurate and depend on the editor's preferences.

User:Cwmhiraeth, thanks for the source review. I've resolved all the issues other than the responses. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 20:49, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that I've addressed everything now. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 03:29, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

My concerns have now been satisfactorily addressed. The article seems comprehensive to me and the quality of the prose is of a high standard and I support this candidacy. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:20, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note -- Out of respect for Adrianne's memory as much as anything we've left this open quite a while. We seem to be on the homeward stretch now, perhaps the nominators can check if Mike and Wehwalt have anything further to add? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:43, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The only thing I'm waiting for to support is for the nominators to check that the rephrasing of quotes I did remained faithful to the source. I believe Christine said that Adam is the one with access to the sources. To be honest, I am pretty sure it's fine, but it would be nice if someone could check. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:05, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate the consideration, really I do. I'll ping Adam and Wehwalt now to get things moving. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:37, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support on prose and comprehensiveness. No opinion on the sources, I don't have access to them.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:04, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If the coordinators could leave this nomination open a few more days, that would be great. Adam has promised [2] to get to the sources this week. Again, I thank you for your flexibility and patience. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 05:26, 15 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Figureskatingfan and Adam Cuerden: To be honest, I'm not sure what we're waiting on re. sources, as both image and source reviews seem to have been satisfactory. If it's nothing major then I'm inclined to promote this now and it can be dealt with post-FAC. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:56, 19 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I am sorry, I've not een able to get to the library to confirm a couple sources. I should be able to any day now. =) Adam Cuerden (talk) 23:15, 19 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ian, I agree; I don't think that Adam isn't going to find much to confirm with the sources, anyway--at least not anything major. If you're inclining towards promoting, that's a marvelous direction in which to lean. ;) Thanks. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 03:53, 20 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't think that suggestion would find much in the way of opposition from you guys... ;-) Doesn't look like it's causing other page watchers much anguish either so I think it's time to finally bring this to a close -- tks to everyone involved. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:51, 20 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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