Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Dudley Clarke/archive2

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 02:33, 16 November 2012 [1].

Dudley Clarke edit

Nominator(s): Errant ^(chat!) 10:06, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I submit for your critique, again, Dudley Clarke. A little known, but important, Brigadier, Clarke pioneered military deception techniques for the Allies during the Second World War. Clarke failed his first FAC in September/October, but only through lack of supports (no opposes). It got three good reviews then, and has since had a MILHIST A-Class review, with a further three commentaries, and a number of other copyedits and contributions. I now think it represents the best that Wikipedia has to offer. I'm nominating it again because I'd like to try and get it on the main page for November 11th - I know that's a rush, but it's time these guys got the recognition that the official secrets act denied them! Errant ^(chat!) 10:06, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support on prose per standard disclaimer. I supported at the last FAC, and I've skimmed the changes since. - Dank (push to talk) 13:36, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support ~~Comments~~ An interesting, well written article. A few points: Cwmhiraeth (talk) 11:25, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"~~... landed a job at a gold mining company." - A bit casual and unencyclopedic?~~

Revised

"~~...a posting to Mesopotamia in 1919. The following year he became involved in the Iraqi revolt of 1920, evacuating Europeans from the country by boat." - Was Mesopotamia a country at the time?~~

Not sure, further advice needed! :) The source refers to Mesopotamia, and I believe army postings to that region were termed in such way.. --Errant ^(chat!) 15:47, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You could just omit the phrase "from the country".

Tweaked to "the region", still mulling on whether I could better present this.

"~~In 1922 he was on extended leave in Turkey when the Chanak Crisis, a threatened Turkish attack on British and French troops, began." - This sentence is rather awkward.~~

Revised

"~~Following the war Clarke ..." - Here and in several other similar places, a comma is missing.~~

Addressed some of the ones I found.

"~~On 5 June, while Dill was inspecting the troops evacuated from Dunkirk, Clarke suggested an idea to him," - I would have thought "the idea" would be better.~~

Revised

"Wavell put Clarke in charge, albeit under great secrecy, of broad strategic deception operations in North Africa, a position he held for the next five years, under subsequent Mediterranean commanders." - Another awkward sentence.

Revised

"~~The attempt was not a major success. Only one of the four units managed to kill any enemy troops." - These two sentences could be combined.~~

Revised

"~~... hit by an attack of jaundice that put him out of action for about six weeks." - A bit casual and unencyclopedic?~~

Revised

"~~Later that month, in unclear circumstances, he was arrested dressed as a woman in Madrid." - This sentence needs rearranging.~~

Revised

~~The first two sentences of the "1942: El Alamein" section would be better included in the previous section.~~

Revised

"~~Cascade was a major success for Clarke; it enabled most of the subsequent major deceptions" - I don't think "enabled" is the correct word here.~~

Revised to "supported"

"A disinformation campaign was agreed on, in which the Allies would attempt to convince German high command that the targets were Dakar and Sicily – the far eastern and western limits of the North African theatre." - This sentence is rather awkward.

Revised

"The promotion did not bestow the perks associated with higher ranks, such as a car and driver, but this did not faze Clarke who used his charisma to obtain them anyway." - A bit casual and unencyclopedic?

Revised, this has gone through a few revisions over the various reviews. It's important to Clarke's bio because of the snippet of the character it shows :)

" ~~Mediterranean Theater" - is this a proper name or should it be " Mediterranean theatre"?~~

I agree! MT is a US term for the North African Theatre! But this is a verbatim quote from Clarke.

"~~Until his retirement from the army in 1947, with the rank of brigadier, he recorded the history of 'A' Force, although the document was then classified till the 1970s." - Another awkward sentence.~~

Revised

"In Cairo, during the Second World War, he was a regular at the cinemas, a location that suited his photographic memory and preference for working at night" - If you have "cinemas" in the plural, "a location" seems wrong.

Revised, made it singular :)

"He was involved in two bad relationships, first in 1922 with a Slavic woman called Nina, whom he met in Wiesbaden and who disappeared after Clarke smuggled currency to her friend in Bulgaria, and then (some time in the late 1920s) with a woman in Sussex who "meant everything in the world" to him, though she refused an offer of marriage." - This sentence is too long and complex. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:56, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Revised

Comments on the lead section Cwmhiraeth (talk) 07:17, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think the lead section is too long. The first paragraph is good but the others need paring down as they contain a considerable quantity of inappropriate detail.

To an extent this is the outcome of the A-Class review which said it was light on some details :P I will go through and make sure it is cut back. Cheers! --Errant ^(chat!) 09:56, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've cut it back by nearly a KB, but am struggling to cut further. I'm already worried it sounds tight and stifled so suggestions welcome. --Errant ^(chat!) 12:35, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think that is much better. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 14:20, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Fascinating stuff. I'm a bit worried, though, by the claims that Clarke with the few members of 'A' Force (including the notably untruthful Jasper Maskelyne) carried off Operations Sentinel and Bertram for the 2nd battle of El Alamein. The account by Middle East Command's Director of Camouflage, Geoffrey Barkas, makes it clear that whatever Clarke did - presumably, suggesting deception to Alexander and Montgomery - the deceptions at all scales in both operations were devised and executed by Camouflage, in collaboration with the Royal Engineers (who built the trackways, etc) on the orders of Brigadier de Guingand (B.G.S. 8th Army), with plentiful support from many departments including R.A.S.C. and the Pioneers. Refs - Peter Forbes, Dazzled and Deceived, 2009, pp 163-169; Barkas, The Camouflage Story, 1952, pp 153-216; Rick Stroud 2012, The Phantom Army of Alamein, 191-203. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:10, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As I mentioned; Clarke's role was deception planning for the entire region. So those operations would be from the desks of 'A' Force at least in Skeleton (the regiments would not be devising this strategy, they would be given the overall plan and work on the details). The sources I have are very clear that Montgomery liaised with Clarke directly over those operations & tasked 'A' Force to draw up the strategic plan. Also, 'A' Force was in some way directly involved via Victor Jones who was running around directing the fictional tanks etc. --Errant ^(chat!) 21:41, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's certain that the generals agreed to the idea of two deceptions - the defensive Sentinel, and the offensive Bertram, and there is no reason to doubt that Clarke took them in that direction. Is there evidence that Jones was involved on the ground? (I suspect there's none at all for Maskelyne, that part seems entirely made up). Any source that is relying on Maskelyne's word is suspect. Barkas makes no mention of Jones; it is possible Jones drove about to watch what was being done and report on progress.

The detailed design of Bertram was worked out by Camouflage - by Barkas himself, with Tony Ayrton. The brief they were given by de Guingand on 16 Sept was 1) to conceal the preparations for attack in the north; 2) to suggest an attack in the south; 3) to minimise the apparent scale of non-concealable preparations in the north; and 4) to suggest the attack would not be ready for 2-3 days when all was in fact ready. (Barkas p191.) Those 4 goals seem to be the most that Clarke can have suggested, and they are indeed critically important. So, Clarke did the strategy as you say, but 'A' force did none of the work on the ground. Sentinel was certainly suggested by Clarke, and equally certainly implemented by Camouflage, organised by Tony Southron. Stroud pp 168-170. Neither operation was implemented by regiments. Chiswick Chap (talk) 23:00, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Jones was in charge of 4th Armoured; one of Clarke's fictional brigades, made up of his dummy tanks and some real ones. He'd had a lot of dummies under his command before that, but this was the first time he had an actual official formation. This comes from Mure, who worked under Clarke and also published in the 80's - which probably makes him more accurate than Barkas. Even has Barkas known about Clarke's role & 'A' Force he would not have been allowed to refer to it in the 50's, same r.e. Jones. But if there is reference ot a 4th Armoured then that is him (again, there may well not be because Cascade was also kept secret till the 70s). Don't get me wrong! I'm not trying to dumb down Barkas's role, my sources are very detailed about him and I have notes to add to his article at some point! I've tried to make it clear 'A' Force was a planning entity and Clarke was a mastermind rather than someone who worked out all the details. Which takes me back to this FAC... is there any specifically actionable things you can give me to change? I'm not willing to accept Barkas as a source for Clarke's role, because of the reasons listed, but am happy to implement changes if you think I could better emphasise his role as a planner. --Errant ^(chat!) 09:24, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(I've tweaked the section somewhat, see what you think...). Incidentally, does Barkas mention radio deception? Because, if not, he doesn't have the whole picture - it played a major part in Sentinel and Bertram. --Errant ^(chat!) 09:29, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Barkas didn't know about the radio ops (quite rightly). His G2 Sykes did meet Clarke in February, and did know about Clarke's "deceptive power via wireless messages and agents". He found Clarke "elderly"! (Sykes 1990 p66). Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:04, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've dug out my Bertram sources. The most detailed account is Alamein, by Jon Latimer (2002). In it he is clear in saying that Bertram was Clarke's plan; the operation involved at least 4 subsidiary plans, plus a disinformation campaign in Cairo and a diversionary attack on the 24th. Latimer says Montgomery briefed Clarke as to what was needed on the 19th August & there is even a specific quote for de Guingand telling Clarke what he was needed from the plan. So, almost certainly, Barkas was given one portion of the finalised plan (a month later) by de Guingand and may have been unaware of the wider aspects of Bertram & Clarke's full role - this is not unexpected, Clarke was obsessed with secrecy (which is one reason he let Maskelyne mouth off, because it took attention away from those doing the real deception). --Errant ^(chat!) 10:09, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That all makes sense. Stroud p193 says however that the radio deception before El Alamein, accompanying Bertram, was "Operation Canwell" which consisted of "25 radio transmitters pretending to be the Eighth Army Tactical HQ and the HQ of a corps, two divisions and five brigades... messages from the men of straw." So Barkas may be right after all, Bertram was purely canvas and palm-frond hurdles. Clarke thus ran 4 deceptions for El Alamein: Sentinel, Bertram, Canwell, and Treatment (the supposed invasion of Crete). Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:30, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

On pg. 155 Latimer says that Richardson planned the details of Bertram - any mention of this in Barkas? Latimer notes five subsidiaries; Diamond, Brian, Munassib, Martello and Murrayfield. Diamond was the water pipeline, Martello and Murrayfield related to the movement of X Corps but I am still unclear what that consisted of, Brian was related to dummy admin camps and Munassib was the machine gun pits. You are right about Canwell and Treatment being companion operations, apologies. 24th Brigade (Australia) also mounted a diversionary attack which officially was part of Op. Bertram, but it has no subsidiary name I can find. Actually figuring out who was responsible for what is difficult for this period of the war as it was fast paced and a little frantic - but it appears Barkas was responsible for the camoflage elements (i.e. the most part of the op.) and various other formations were involved as drivers etc. I'm unfamiliar with Barkas' exact placement in the chain of command - from what I can make out he was a staff officer in GHQ for 8th Army? So it seems possible he worked out the camouflage elements with Richardson in charge of the overall Op. planning. Interesting stuff! --Errant ^(chat!)

Martello was the holding area for tanks, initially populated with trucks, and then with tanks under Sunshields. It ran alongside the railway by El Imayid station. Murrayfield North and South, and Melting Pot, were holding areas for openly placed tanks further to the rear. When the real tanks moved up to Martello, dummies took their places in these 3 areas. Munassib in the south was a double-bluff, with dummy guns badly camouflaged so the enemy would see them, and then replaced with real antitank guns when the enemy attacked there. There's a clear map on pp192-3 of Barkas, and a scan of a messy Dec 1942 plan on pp193-4 of Stroud.

Lt-Col Barkas was Director of Camouflage at GHQ (Grey Pillars, Cairo) for the whole of the Middle East Command, not just 8th Army. He also ran the camouflage school and workshops at Helwan. Like most of his camoufleurs he was an artist (a film-maker) and didn't fit in too easily as a staff officer. Not sure Clarke and his frock fitted in that well either...Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:29, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, right! That makes a lot more sense. :) A lot of these characters seem oddballs, but I suppose that is what was needed for the role... From what I've picked up out of the sources they all knocked heads with regularity :) Before I get sidetracked; is the article as it reads OK or is there more needs changing? --Errant ^(chat!) 16:45, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It reads beautifully. I've been so bold as to add brief mention of Canwell and Treatment. You may possibly want to refer to Steven Sykes (artist) for his meeting with Clarke. The ref is

Sykes, Steven (1990). Deceivers Ever: The Memoirs of a Camouflage Officer. Tunbridge Wells: Spellmount. ISBN 0-946-771-54-5. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:59, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support, by the way, after all this work. A very readable article, excellent prose. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:13, 7 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - 1941: Cairo image caption needs editing for grammar, licensing is unproblematic. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:22, 11 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I reviewed the articles in quite some detail at the A-class review and thought it was of FA standard then. I've followed the changes that have happened since and I don't see any cause for concern. This is an excellent and very interesting article and well deserving if FA status. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 07:55, 11 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Follow-up comment - briefly, as I commented at the first FAC but was unable to return before I went on a wikibreak, I've looked over the responses and changes made back then, and they all look fine to me apart from a few points I'll raise here (plus the matter of the 'pages' parameter in the 'cite book' template - that parameter is used to generate a cite to a range of pages, never to give page totals for a book!). The one (serious) quibble I have is about where he died. I pointed you to a page in the London Gazette that gave his address at the time of death. The article now says he died there. Unless your source explicitly says he died in his apartment, you can't say that, as he may have died somewhere else (such as in hospital). All I was pointing out was that we have an article on the place where he lived at one point. Other than that, the work done on the article then and since looks excellent (I looked over this FAC as well, briefly), and once the point I raised here is cleared up, I'd be happy to support. Carcharoth (talk) 22:44, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support - based on the above and the comments at the previous FAC. One further comment: the lead could do with trimming. Maybe ask someone new to the article to see what they think could be done in that direction? Carcharoth (talk) 23:58, 13 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delegate note -- per Carcharoth, I've trimmed a little bit that I felt we could do without in the lead, see what y'all think. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 16:59, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good, Ian. - Dank (push to talk) 20:44, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, that looks great. Thanks Ian. @all; thanks for the review, comments and support - sorry for being so uncommunicative, this has been a busy week :) --Errant ^(chat!) 22:16, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.