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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Corry Tendeloo/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Hog Farm via FACBot (talk) 18 May 2022 [1].

Corry Tendeloo edit

Nominator(s): Edwininlondon (talk) 14:08, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I promised my daughter to get more bios of women on WP, so here's an article about a Dutch politician from the 1940s & 50s, who was active in the women's rights movement. A bit on the short side (the article, not her I think), but there were surprisingly few sources available. I'm grateful for a GA review by Vacant0, peer review by Mujinga and copy-edit by Buidhe, who have all improved my poor start significantly. Feel free to make simple edits directly in the article. I look forward to your comments. Edwininlondon (talk) 14:08, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Some images are missing alt text
  • Sorry, once again I forgot. I promise before my next FAC to check.
  • File:CorryTendeloo.jpg: the tags given here are contradictory - if the author is unknown, given the date of the image we cannot know they died over 70 years ago. Also the source link is dead and this needs a tag for US status.
  • I have removed the image from the article.
  • Same problems (other than source link) with File:Tendeloo.jpg
  • I have removed the image from the article.
  • File:CorryTendelooMerkelbach.jpg needs a US tag and author date of death. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:43, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merkelbach died in 1942. See [2]. Date and US tag added. Image now lead image.
  • Photo taken in 1926 by portrait photographer Merkelbach according to [3]. I can't find anything about it being published. The site hosting it says it is in the public domain. The site's owner is an institute that is a descendant of the International Archives for the Women's Movement. Since starting in 1935, they received many personal archives. It is likely that this photo was never published until public domain. The site hosts other Tendeloo images, but lists those as in Copyright, so they seem to follow the rules. None of the digitized 1940s, 1950s newspaper articles that mention Tendeloo feature this photo (they wouldn't of course, it's from before she became well-known). Edwininlondon (talk) 07:01, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay. The image currently has a tag indicating PD in US because of pre-1927 publication, which if it was unpublished would not apply - that tagging needs to be changed. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:40, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I tried to figure out what the right tag is. According to the colourful table on WP:COPYEXP it should be an S tag, but I can't find what that tag should look like. Just S in curly brackets doesn't work. What should it be? Edwininlondon (talk) 06:14, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Is { { PD-US-unpublished } } correct? Edwininlondon (talk) 16:57, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but I'd also suggest adding some of the detail provided above to the image description. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:07, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Done

Thank you, Nikkimaria, for checking this. Edwininlondon (talk) 15:57, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild edit

Recusing to review.

  • "she was instrumental in ending couverture" ... "died ... before any of the women's rights issues she fought for became law" ?
Drive by comment, I picked up on this too and edited it to say she was instrumental in introducing legislation that would end it. SusunW (talk) 22:16, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I like what you did to solve this timing problem. Thank you, SusunW. Edwininlondon (talk) 08:42, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "English-teaching diploma". I don't think that needs a hyphen.
  • Done
  • "Dutch Women Club". Should that be 'Dutch Women's Club'?
  • Yes
  • Maybe mention why Bakker-Nort's seat was vacant?
  • Done.
  • "The Dutch government accepted equal pay in principle but opposed ratification and execution on the grounds that the pay gap of 30% should be closed over time and not, as the government believed the convention required, at once." So the government believed that the convention required immediate implementation, but was actively working to prevent this? This would seem to strain the meaning of "believed". If I have this right, maybe a tad more detail?
  • Government and parliament agreed equal pay should be introduced gradually. Tendeloo mentioned 8 years. No one wanted immediate. Government speakers interpreted a phrase in article 2 of the Equal Remuneration Convention, which mentioned "the use of all available means", quite differently from the Tendeloo and others. Simply put, the government had the ability to make equal pay law, so they said that once signed they had to make it law asap. Tendeloo and others argued that the key bit was in the modifier that followed "fitting the methods in use in the country to set wages". That is the context. "Believe" seems indeed quite a stretch here. What seems to be going on is a government giving one reason after another, but never really saying what they really think: "we don't believe in equality and didn't think we so soon had to act after being part of this convention." But I can only go with what the sources give us, so I replaced "believed" with "as per the government's stated interpretation of what the convention required"
Optional: delete "and not, as per the government's stated interpretation of what the convention required, at once."
  • Done
  • "Tendeloo argued that the convention did not require an immediate closure of the pay gap." On the face of it, this is a curiously anti-feminist stance. What am I missing? ("What do we want?" "Equal pay!" "When do we want it?" "Oh, er, never mind.")
  • It is indeed quite head scratching at times, reading this stuff 70 years later, but overall it seems the approach taken was one of aiming for very small steps. I added Tendeloo's suggestion of 8 years.
  • "allround". Are you sure that is a word?
  • Not at all sure. Simplified.
  • "Speaker of the House of Representatives Rad Kortenhorst" - upper case initials for the title; "prime minister Drees" - lower case. MOS:JOBTITLE would suggest that the latter should be upper case. See also elsewhere in the article.
  • Done
  • Personally I would mention her knighthood in chronological order, at the end of the House of Representatives section.
  • Done

Wonderful article. I enjoyed reading it. In between smacking my head against the wall. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:19, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you. And thanks for taking the time to comment, much appreciated. Edwininlondon (talk) 08:42, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Supporting, although note further suggestion above. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:44, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support from SusunW edit

Putting a placeholder here. I'll be looking at her over the next day or so. Thank your daughter and thank you for working on Tendeloo. SusunW (talk) 21:28, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you very much for all these suggestions and comments. Some require a bit of research, so they may take a while. Edwininlondon (talk) 07:28, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Whenever you want Edwininlondon. Let me know when you are done or if you need help. I'm really, really busy, but I'll try to keep an eye on it. SusunW (talk) 13:37, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in 1903" Het Parool quotes Tendeloo as saying they came in 1902, which is a discrepancy with Linders p 117 which says 1903?
  • The Huygens source says she was 5 when they moved, so it could be either 1902 or 1903. I have removed the year and followed Huygens
  • Multiple sources say she attended both the Hogere Burgerschool and gymnasium. I asked why? Apparently HBS was not considered as college prep and gymnasium was and according to this Leiden didn't allow girls to even attend the HBS until 1881. The Middelbare meisjesschool [nl] in Leiden (a women's prep school for university studies) didn't open until 1889[4], so did she actually attend gymnasium? I can’t figure out when/if one existed for women in Leiden, but the sources say she did, so we must accept that. Perhaps it is worth adding a footnote for context that women were barred from university in Leiden until 1878, had no access to secondary education until 1881, and no woman graduated in law in Leiden until 1899.
  • I'm not so sure. I'd say yes if these dates were closer to her attending, but these years are all from before she was born.
  • Your call, except that I note being born in 1897, she would have been one of the first or second generation (20-30 years typically) of girl/women attendees. SusunW (talk) 13:22, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps link "local school" to Meer Uitgebreid Lager Onderwijs, as Biografisch Woordenboek says it was that kind of middle school and Vrouwenlexicon confirms it was a secondary school.
  • Done
  • After "other aspects of life" you have the same source listed twice with different page numbers? I cannot access so cannot confirm.
  • Mistake fixed
  • "Joined a law firm", perhaps per Biografisch Woordenboek, "she joined the firm of Pieren & Folkers"?
  • Done
  • Done
  • She resigned in 1946. Do we know why? (It doesn't seem related to her seat in Parliament as she simultaneously served from 1945.)
  • I assume that she tried combining the 2 jobs in 2 different cities, but eventually gave up. I tried to find a source, but so far have not been able to.
  • Logical, and I kind of thought you would have found an explanation if there was one. SusunW (talk) 13:22, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "On the ranked list"… "she was ranked" can we make this less redundant?
  • Done
  • I think it is important to note that per Vrouwenlexicon and Parlement.com, she wrote a regular column "Parlementaria" from 1946-1956 for the women’s journal Vrouwenbelangen (Women’s Interests) to educate its readers on current political events.
  • Done
  • Probably should ill-link Wim de Kort, he seems rather prominent.
  • Done
  • "under a pseudonym" or "using a pseudonym"?
  • Done
  • What the heck is a tax academy? (Sounds like tax law, ugh. Why would anyone want to join such a thing?)
  • It wasn't high on my list of academic choices either.
  • LOL. Went back to the sources to see if any explained more. It is indeed a school to learn tax policy and according to wp.nl graduates could earn a law degree by attending. Perhaps we link it to the Dutch article "Rijksbelastingacademie"? SusunW (talk) 13:22, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done
  • Women were indeed incapacitated in the Netherlands, but not from 1838, actually legally from the passage of the first civil code in 1809. Not sure if it's worth mentioning, but I note it because it's a full 30 years.
  • It is worth mentioning I think. I added it as a footnote.
  • Thank you. It is weird to me that countries like to "pretty up" their history. History is both ugly and beautiful. We can't measure progress or failure without a clear picture, IMO. SusunW (talk) 13:22, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm thinking that just mentioning the Netherlands and the US is misleading with regard to coverture. It was a worldwide phenomenon because of colonization and literally started with the Norman conquest. See p 347. For example, I have been working on a series about women’s nationality (written over 100 countries so far) and have yet to find one that did not require a wife to forego her own nationality in favor of her husband’s until the middle of the 20th century.
  • I agree it is misleading to mention the US only, deleted. I do think it is important to convey it is worldwide and not just the Netherlands, and not something new. I also think it is important to not distract users. So I just added "often for centuries", entirely relying on the link to Coverture for interested readers. Or would you prefer a footnote? What would it say?
  • Me? (You probably shouldn't ask (grin), I would prefer that women's history was taught from grammar school so that folks understood the problem and that coverture wasn't some 16th century notion that died out long ago, but it isn't and won't be in my lifetime or even my grand daughter's). I would likely put a Note (see 4), (though I am pretty sure most people don't read them anyway), because I do think it is extremely important, but like you don't want to distract readers from the main article. Totally your call and I will defer to your judgment, but if you did decide to do such a note, you could include the tidbits below on when changes actually occurred. SusunW (talk) 13:32, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I added a short footnote.
  • I don’t think it is true to say that the "Lex van Oven" ended coverture. It ended women’s legal incapacity in some instances (and possibly most true to say with regard to employment). For example, women still couldn't obtain a nationality separate from their spouse until 1964 or pass on their nationality to their children until 1985,p 139 and the husband still controlled where the family lived and decisions regarding children until 1984.p 8 (Typically worldwide, women couldn't rent, open a bank account, have credit, etc. in their own name until after the 1960s women's movements started.)
  • This piece in English and published by the government of the Netherlands says "Corry Tenderloo (1897-1956) was a fierce protestor against this section of the civil code. As an unmarried member of parliament she submitted a motion in 1955 to reverse the special decree, which was passed with the smallest possible majority. In 1956 the Cabinet also changed the Civic Code, so that also married women were seen as capable of working." You might look at the Dolle Mina movement to get an idea of continuing issues. SusunW (talk) 14:12, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree LvO was only the beginning of the end. Text amended.
  • "Couverture ended on 1 January 1957" ditto to above, ended women's legal incapacity?
  • My litmus test (unscientific, but usually predictive) on whether coverture has ended is usually when marital rape became a crime. Using the argument that if spouses were "one flesh" rape could not occur within marriage was one of the clearest indicators of coverture. That type of violence has typically been one of the last impediments to married women's autonomy. I note that in the Netherlands marital rape wasn't criminalized until 1991. (Looking at these dates is depressing. But reiterates the ugly/beautiful progress/failure comment I made before. *sigh*) SusunW (talk) 13:22, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quite depressing indeed. I changed it to Lex van Oven coming into effect on that date
  • Note B "forced women to be dismissed" from employment?
  • Done
  • "According to Posthumus…" we have a mixed bag of verb tenses stated… have listened… agreed… to follow. Perhaps stated, had listened, agreed, “and then followed”?
  • Done
  • "Drees to so already" do we mean "to do"?
  • Done
  • "in 2019, that Tendeloo has done"… "it is time" — surely should be past tense as she was long dead.
  • Done

Re Sources:

  • Overall, please ensure that citations throughout the text are in numerical order. For example after "absent from parliament for almost a year" you have [25][2][26].
  • Done
  • Trans-title and any other English source title should be given in "title case". This is helpful.
  • Done
  • ISBNs should be consistent. Some are properly laid with dashes and others not (the sections actually do have meaning). Some are 10-digit and others 13. This is helpful (note sometimes requires you to run it twice to get 13 digits in the right format).
  • Done
  • Biografisch Woordenboek author missing, i.e. Alice Mul, as is date 2001
  • Done
  • Bosch, Mineke (2005) is missing a link
  • Done
  • C.J.H. Jansen (2006) is missing a [link
  • Done

Sources appear to be reliable and comprehensive. Spot check reveals no significant omissions or copyvios. Overall, really enjoyed learning about her and reading the article. Thank you for your work on it. SusunW (talk) 18:04, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • I believe I have addressed all your points. Sorry it took so long, but some of the points required quite a bit of research. Let me knoe if there is more to do. If not, thank you very, very much for all your insights, sources, comments and improvements. Edwininlondon (talk) 21:17, 28 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for all of your work on the article. Sorry to be slow to answer, spent the entire day yesterday in "urgencias" with my sister. (She's fine now). I appreciate your work in telling Tendeloo's story. I honestly believe that if more women's history were incorporated into our collective story, we would have a better grasp of our humanity. I am happy to support. SusunW (talk) 12:09, 29 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for taking the time, despite the "urgencias" visit, good to hear sister is fine. I am exploring the next women's rights issue I could write an article about. Thank you for your encouragement. Edwininlondon (talk) 12:43, 29 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from mujinga edit

  • Having given comments at peer review, I'll be happy to read this article again after SusunW has refined it! Just a quick note to say something is garbled with the nom because at Talk:Corry_Tendeloo it says "Please feel free to initiate the nomination" but this archive already exists. Mujinga (talk) 07:29, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, I see that too. How weird. I can't see what I have done wrong. Hopefully noone clicks the red text and erases the existing archive... Edwininlondon (talk) 08:46, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Mujinga you make me laugh. I had the same experience with the link, but Gog got me here. SusunW (talk) 18:18, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the refs, you have "Ms Tendeloo Passed Away" and "Ms. Tendeloo Passed Away." in what are currently references 4 and 39
  • Done
  • Done
  • de Telegraaf should be De Telegraaf in ref 27 I suppose, if you have for example Het Vrije Volk. Also de Volkskrant but Het Parool
  • In publications, "N. S. C. Tendeloo (1946—1956): Parlementaria column in Vrouwenbelangen (monthly magazine VVGS)[2]" needs a full stop and debatably an "(in Dutch)"
  • Done
  • " She said that once society's view of women changed, the outdated laws that discriminate against women would be rewritten" - bit stuck on this sentence, there's two "that"s and I also wonder where she said this.
  • Done. This comes from the end of the Oprechte Haerlemsche Courant article
  • "a women's place is at home" - "a women's place was at home"?
  • Done
  • "..for the new charter for the Dutch colonies. In 1952, she was diagnosed with breast cancer. She gave up her legal work and was absent from parliament for almost a year.[1][24][25] " This is a rather abrupt jump from colonies to cancer. Could it be ..for the new charter for the Dutch colonies. In 1952, she gave up her legal work and was absent from parliament for almost a year after she was diagnosed with breast cancer"?
  • Done. Thank you for the suggested wording
  • "fewer than 2% of married women worked" - suggest "fewer than 2 per cent of married women worked" since you used per cent earlier
  • Done
  • "Tendeloo died on 18 October 1956" - was the cause cancer?
  • Yes, added
  • Just some nitpicks really it's a great article now and superinteresting! Mujinga (talk) 15:34, 2 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for your kind words. I believe I have addressed all your points. Edwininlondon (talk) 11:23, 3 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nice work, changing to support, I'll just note that as a non-native Dutch speaker I don't know what's best on de Volkskrant / De Volkskrant because our own article is all over the place and Template:Dutch newspapers uses De Volkskrant. But the article itself is indeed titled de Volkskrant and the pic of a frontpage clearly shows "de" (but then De Telegraaf is "De" ... strange!) Mujinga (talk) 19:17, 3 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks! It is quite strange indeed. The odd one out is de Volkskrant. I can't find out why but already here in 1939 did the masthead say "de Volkskrant" [5] Edwininlondon (talk) 20:35, 3 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Tim riley edit

A few minor points on the prose.

  • General
  • –ise -v- –ize endings – the spellings seem a bit random: we have specializing, emphasizing, criticized, prioritize and organization but organise, criticised, jeopardise and organisation. I think you ought to be consistent one way or the other. In modern BrE –ise is usual, but if you choose that option I daresay an exception should be made for the International Labour Organization, which adopts the spelling more common in America.
  • Lead
  • "more well known" – "more well" seems a rather odd way of saying "better"
  • Done
  • Early life and activism
  • "earned an English teaching diploma" – Though I am very conscious of the dictum in Plain Words that if you take hyphens seriously you will surely go mad, I think, pace Gog, you should put the hyphen back: without it this is a teaching diploma that is English rather than a diploma in teaching English.
  • Done
  • she began to practice – if, as it seems, the article is in BrE, the verb is "practise".
  • Done
  • Equal pay debates
  • pay gap of 30% – I think the MoS steers us towards "per cent" rather than the "%" symbol in prose passages (though not in tables etc), but I may be mistaken.
  • You are correct. Done
  • Death and legacy
  • "Frappez, frappez toujours!", which translates as 'Repeat, repeat making your point!'" – my French is pretty awful, but even so I venture to boggle at this translation. I can't make "frapper" mean "repeat making your point". My Oxford French Dictionary says "frapper" means hit, strike, knock, bang. "Always keep banging on" might be more the mark. But the views of someone whose French is better and more idomatic than mine would be useful.
  • I shall try and get some insights from native speakers. I'm just translating into English what Dutch writers think the French meant.
  • Having raised this point I'm happy to leave it to you to change or leave alone as you think best. Tim riley talk 08:05, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "adding that it is time to put Tendeloo in the history textbooks – "was" rather than "is" time?
  • Done

Those are my meagre gleanings. This is an interesting and worthwhile article, and I don't think its brevity is in any way an obstacle to its promotion. – Tim riley talk 15:22, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Happy to support. The article is highly readable, balanced, appears comprehensive, and is evidently sourced as widely as possible. It seems to me to meet all the FA criteria. Tim riley talk 08:05, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Ruud Buitelaar edit

Excellent initiative. Very interesting article. I support the nomination. A few comments:

  • the name Corrie is not a given name, it is a nickname, derived from Cornelie. Exactly like Robert "Bobby" Kennedy, where Robert is the given name and Bobby the nickname. The footnote about given names in dutch is not to the point.
  • I found guidance on MOS:NICK and have changed it to "Corry" and removed the footnote.
  • I have not been able to find a reliable source for that. I can see it being mentioned on a user generated site, and I can see a reliable source mentioning a Mr Tendeloo being assistent-resident at Langkat, but then we still need one to say that it is indeed her father.
  • Vereniging Ons Huis was not a social club but an association to promote social housing, see also Helena Mercier
  • Added
  • the dutch expression "Beter ten halve gekeerd..." is translated as "better to turn halfway...". I would prefer an english close equivalent, such as "A fault confessed is a fault redressed".
  • Done
  • the french expression "frappez, frappez toujours" can be translated as "Knock and keep knocking".Ruud Buitelaar (talk) 23:46, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Apropos of my comments, above, that last point seems to me a splendid suggestion by Ruud Buitelaar. Tim riley talk 20:53, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have changed it. Hopefully we get some confirmation from native French speakers. Edwininlondon (talk) 06:03, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source review edit

Footnote numbers refer to this version.

  • Linders (1997) is missing a publisher location, and so are three of the books listed under "Publications".
  • Done. One of them turned out to be a journal article, not a book chapter.
  • I'm not sure how you're sorting Holland (1809), but it seems it should be before Jansen.
  • Done
  • Your cite news citations have a publisher only once, for [26]; any reason to have it there? Similarly only one cite web has a publisher, [68], and the cite podcast has a domain instead of a website name, and has a publisher. I think the easiest way to be consistent would be to eliminate these publishers.
  • Done
  • The archive link for [4] does not work.
  • Removed
  • [25] is subscription protected; that's fine for the main link, but I think it makes the archive link useless.
  • Tag added and archive link removed
  • None of the delpher.nl archive links are working for me.
  • All depher archive links removed

I can't be confident about the Dutch sources, but as far as I can see the sources are all reliable. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:14, 6 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you for taking the time to do this. Much appreciated. Edwininlondon (talk) 08:44, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The fixes all look good, but I just noticed one more small thing: there's no ISBN on Sikkema (2011). Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:40, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Pass. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:53, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support from BennyOnTheLoose edit

I'm satisifed that this meets the criteria, so have nothing to add except my support (and won't be claiming WikiCup points). I ran a script to amend a couple of dashes, which I hope should be fine. The references "[8][25][26][65][66]" could be bundled (WP:CITEBUNDLE), and it would be nice to know if there's any upate on the online petition mentioned right at the end, but I have no reason to withhold support. Great work. Thanks to the nominator and reviewers. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:28, 10 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you for fixing the dashes. I'll try to get this multiref template to work. I just checked again but unfortunately no news on the petition. Edwininlondon (talk) 13:38, 10 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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