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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Coil (band)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted 16:41, 26 March 2007.

Coil (band) edit

The article slid through the GA process easily with a single recommendation that has been amended. --AlexOvShaolin 06:27, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support Oppose. The "beginning" section has no references at all. —Cuiviénen 18:36, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Object — Some good material, but I think it's not quite ready for FA yet. Specific issues:
    • The lead section isn't really a summary of the article, per WP:LS.
    • Needs to explain "Psychic TV" without the user having to drill down. It would be interesting if the history of Balance and Christopherson, as members of Psychic TV, could be summarized as a prelude to their formation of Coil.
    • How did they come up with the name Coil? Was it chosen for some particular reason? Or just a random pick?
    • I'm unclear about what this means: "The album was largely based around the ideals of industrial music as well as other British groups at the time"
      • Still unclear due to ambiguity. Does this mean the album was also based around ideals of other British groups, or that the album emulated the sounds of these groups? Perhaps I am misunderstanding what it means by "ideals". Does that mean ideals in the manner of a code of beliefs, or ideals as a penultimate level of the craft?
    • It should make clear that "Horse Rotorvator" was an album release.
    • Some citations improperly precede punctuation.
    • Who are "their Thai friends"?
    • The "Coil Live" section has no references. The final paragraph of the "Influence" section definitely needs references. The later is perhaps the one section of the article that seems to demonstrate their notability, at least in my mind.
    • I didn't see much (if any) information about their album sales or sell-out concerts.
Thanks. — RJH (talk) 22:51, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Haven't read the article yet, but two problems straight off:
  • The structure needs work; why is the discography stranded between "Death of John Balance" and "Background"?
  • The references are insufficently detailed - missing author name and date of publication in most instances.
I'm a big fan of the band bty, was amazed and delighted to see it brought forward; well done so far. + Ceoil 22:58, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have addressed the majority of the issues, please browse the article once more to make sure I have taken care of things appropriately. Concerning album sales, all albums were sold through labels run by the band (not reported to the RIAA) and the group have not released figures to this. On the subject of live performances, "selling out" shows wasnt really a factor as they have always performed in smaller venues with the exception of several major festivals which included other performers that may or may not have been responsible for the bulk of the ticket sales.AlexOvShaolin 03:09, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have combed over the remaining subjects:
Cuiviénen - I added 3 citations to the beginning.
RJHall - where the group got the name Coil is now explained in the opening; i also reworded the tricky sentence that you pointed out.
Ceoil - i moved the discography to a more appropriated place, if you have a better suggestion i would like to hear; i added author name and date of publication to many of the citations, where it is missing the source does not mention these details.AlexOvShaolin 22:10, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I've changed my preference to support. — RJH (talk) 15:56, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments - Support - These are from (another) brief scan of the article - wiki and real life stuff getting in the way, unfortunately:
  • The lead is an unsatisfying summary of the band's career, and doesn't convey the reasons for the high critical acclaim Coil latterly recieve.
  • "later credited as 'Jhonn Balance'" & "his intimate partner" - seems like unnecessary detail for the opening statement. I'm not a big fan of the phrase 'intimate partner'; it seems a little Catholic. Why not just 'lover', if that is what he was? But that's a subjective call, of course.
  • The list "Members and style" should be converted to a narrative. A sentence or two on each major contributor, and phrases like "also worked with such artists as x,y,z" would help here.
  • " The album was largely based on the sound of industrial music as well as British rock of the time" - "British rock" is too vague; never heard of that term; post punk?
  • "other songs represented a foundation to a style unique to Coil's following releases." - meaning is unclear.
  • "becoming the first AIDS relief album" - which became the first...
  • "The "Tainted Love" music video is on permanent display at The Museum of Modern Art in New York.[5][6]" - why does this require two cites? Either it is, or it isn't.
  • "However Coil have explicitly expressed their influence from..." - 'Hoevever' is redundant - sentence does not contradict the preceeding statement.
  • Are 'Discogs.com' & 'unknown, 2001' reliable sources?

Otherwise, I'm impressed by your access to print sources; Coil are noted for their animosity towards any press attention. I'll read it properly soon, back then. + Ceoil 23:27, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You've noticed quite a few things I seemed to have missed. Concerning your first comment, I added in a few details, however Coil are not 'highly critically acclaimed' by the same people that write Rolling Stone, so there will probably never be citable information to add. However I did manage to add a few facts on the matter. I took your advice and replaced 'intimate partner' with 'lover' to make the first sentence more concise, and it does convey the same meaning anyway. I cleaned up the other points you mentioned as well. Furthermore I removed the shady citations you mentioned, without replacing them, since one was a double cite and the other doesn't need to be cited. I hope you will add more suggestions. --AlexOvShaolin 04:25, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Apologies for neglecting this. A few more points:
  • The prose is still quite choppy in places, with many short one statement sentences. eg: Balance and Christopherson began working with John Gosling on the project Zos Kia. The group performed together live several times and released the album Transparent. The flow would be aided by including eg: "In Month X, 1982 Balance and...", "in date X, 1982, released their debut album Transparent", or other relevant details.
  • "and was said to have been produced under a variety of technological, spiritual, and meteorological conditions" I assume the linear notes state this, but the phrase "and was said to have" implies (to me at least) that you have switched to a different source.
  • "Since the initial releases, Transparent has been reissued in CD format" - again dates would help here.
  • "while other songs previewed what would become Coil's unique style" - Too vague.
  • "Sales from the single Panic/Tainted Love were donated to the Terrence Higgins Trust, which became the first AIDS relief album". - Unclear, did the Terrence Higgins Trust include tracks from the single on the first AIDS relief album, or did it mutate into an album. - Still unclear what happened here, current text states that the single became an album Ceoil 23:24, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Horse Rotorvator followed as the next full length release. The album retained fewer elements of the classic industrial sound." - Again, choppy.
  • "Horse Rotorvator was in part influenced by the AIDS related deaths of some of their friends.[8] One song on the album..." ::I got the impression from the phrasing that the sentence beginning "One song.." would give examples of songs "influenced by the AIDS related deaths of some of their friends".
  • "Windowpane" and a Jack Dangers remix of "The Snow" became the singles" - "became" is awkward - released
  • The section "Coil Live" is currently too brief to stand on it's own, there is some good material in the sub article, maybe try incorporating. (eg: Balance's problem with alcohol etc).
  • "Religious views" is also beief, could this be merged into another section? Maybe in a discussion of the "Born Again Pagans" album. - Can live with this, agree that its not easily merged. Ceoil 23:24, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • On my screen, images and music sample boxed crammed into short sections is bunching up the text, and giving the article a "squashed" feel. (I guess that was what was behind Kmzundel's "Can all the section headings be aligned left" comment below.)
  • Some retrival dates still missing.
Overall, the prose could do with work, I've listed some examples, can you go through the text and resolve others. Article would be much improved if you eliminate the short sentences, and expand on some of the leaner sections. Ceoil 22:50, 20 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to give all of these things a closer look. If you notice futher augmentations are still not up to par, please note them as well. --AlexOvShaolin 02:58, 22 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A few comments concerning your suggestions:
  • Point 1: I cant find the month for the release of the album on any of the best Coil resources, so I augmented the sentence for better flow.
  • Point 2: reworded awkward sentence.
  • Point 3: i dont feel that rerelease dates are relevant enough to be entered here however i have added the dates each album was first released in the paragraphs above.
  • Point 4: i added 'electronic' to this statement, however pinning down their style would require use of non-NPOV.
  • Point 5: reworded awkward sentence.
  • Point 6: removed awkward sentence.
  • Point 7: reworded awkward sentence.
  • Points 8 & 9: fixed
  • Point 10: i dont know what can be done with this section, however Coil + religion is a relevant issue among fans. I dont think that it should be added to the above discussion of Born Again Pagans since the side projects are a completely seperate issue. i'll think this one over...do some pondering.
  • Point 11: i resized my browser and noticed that the "side projects & soundtracks" section was cramped, i cleaned this up. this was the only section i noticed a problem on the 'cramping' issue.
  • Point 12: added several dates, adding more now.
  • Your closing statement: i'm going to look this over.
--AlexOvShaolin 02:36, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Great work Alex, the article is very close. Ceoil 23:24, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Concerns have been addressed; have changed vote to support. Ceoil 21:25, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments
  • Add lover's name in Lead (I'm assuming it's NOT Throbbing Gristle)
  • Date (year) of first release under the name Coil would be helpful in Lead
  • "created the proposed soundtrack" doesn't make sense to me.
  • Might make more sense to put the long quote re: the Hellraiser soundtrack to prose.
To clarify - the 2nd paragraph under "soundtracks and side projects" contains a long quote that's not exceptionally clear. Instead of the quote, can you put the thought regarding the creative differences into your own words? Kmzundel 13:39, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Much improved. Kmzundel 22:52, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can all the section headings be aligned left?
Perhaps it's my monitor then. It happens from time to time. Kmzundel 13:39, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Last sentence unclear to me: "It is possible that Trent Reznor named the track as a reference to Coil, who provided remixes for the same album." Who provided remixes?
  • Have made a few style edits myself. Kmzundel 16:41, 18 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Point 1: his name was in the lead but the sentence was difficult to read so i removed some information that didnt need to be there. Point 2: Done. Point 3: reworded the awkward sentence. Point 4: i dont know what you mean. Point 5: all of the headings are displayed on the left as far as i can see. Point 6: reworded the awkward sentence. AlexOvShaolin 05:43, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Much Improved! Good work! Kmzundel 13:39, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Comments. I didn't read this entirely, but I immediately noted it fails criteria 3 and 4 of WP:WIAFA:
    • Remove the band image at the beginning; a free alternative can be found, thus this violates WP:FUC #1.
    • Plenty of two-three sentence paragraphs throughout the article.
    • In the "Discography" section "Primary and most notable releases" are WP:POV'ish.
    • "1982-1984: Beginning", "1998-2004: Late Coil", "Coil Live" nearly unreferenced.
    • Image:Geffinlibrary.jpg lacks a thumbnail and a caption.
    • The lead should either be completely referenced or not referenced at all.
    • Full dates should be linked and years/month alone should not. See WP:DATE.
    • Overwhelming amount of multiply wiki-links. Whenever you mention a person's name, each further mention would just be his last name unlinked.
    • Most song lyrics are protected by copyright, and should not be linked.
    • Image:THRESH2.jpg isn't a "a necessary part of the article" to justify fair use claims. Michaelas10 (Talk) 10:17, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Point 1: I'm beginning to go through your list of suggestions, however i want to state CLEARLY that A FREE ALTERNATIVE CANNOT BE FOUND! I have managed well over 600 Coil images, visited EVERY fansite and after an exhaustive search could located NO FREE IMAGES. You should keep in mind that Coil are not the Backstreet boys, they do not do red carpet events and before their appearance on tour were notorious for their recluse nature. Futhermore, out of the many live images i have managed, no photographers were willing to GNU their images after my request. I figured this subject would come up and i wanted to address it head on and directly.
  • Point 2: I'm going to look into this.
  • Point 3: Coil's discography is quite extensive. When you take out all the singles, remix albums, compilations, studio outtake releases, live albums, and albums which were not widely distributed you are left with the list I gave.
  • Point 4: i referenced everything in that area that could be viewed as non-npov, if you feel inclined drop 'citation needed' where you feel citations are necessary and i will review them, add citations or delete what cannot be cited (which i am certain should be next to nothing).
  • Point 5: done.
  • Point 6: i feel the lead needs to be refenced, please drop 'citation needed' tags where you feel they are necessary.
  • Point 7: i've combed over the article and i believe i corrected all instances of this mistake.
  • Point 8: i'm going to give this mention thorough application.
  • Point 9: done.
  • Point 10: it is not uncommon that music articles use album covers when discussing the album at length (as i have done in the article).
AlexOvShaolin 19:57, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Agree that free images would be next to impossible to source. The article does not contain an excessive amount of FU, and we shouldn't handicap articles on lesser known bands in this way. Ceoil 19:47, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I found one right here. It might not be of high quality, but it's still a free replacement.
  • Please mind our verifiability criteria. All facts need to be referenced, including the "NPOV" ones. I'm sure you've got all the information in the article from somewhere, so it wouldn't be an issue to provide that.
  • "Widely distributed" still has a point of view. Not all editors may judge this as you did.
  • Not really, the date in the image caption of Image:2000June17CoilWithStockhausenAtSonar.jpg isn't properly linked. Also choose either US/UK date format and use it in the rest of the article.
  • Please separate it from the music sample template. Michaelas10 (Talk) 21:39, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I should note that a "widely distributed" coil album usually means that it was not strictly limited to under 1,000 copies.--AlexOvShaolin 01:41, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, please state so instead of using that term. Personally I'd recommend just adding a list of studio albums in that section. Michaelas10 (Talk) 18:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Done, if there are any points you are still opposed to i'm all ears. --AlexOvShaolin 19:22, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The article still requires a lot of references, especially to the provided sections above. Verifiability is a core policy, and each featured article should adhere it. Michaelas10 (Talk) 19:49, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
further references added. --AlexOvShaolin 03:06, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for time being. Could you run through my checklist for some MoS issues - at a glance, there's unwikilinked dates in the references, image sizes specified, missing accessdates. Trebor 14:54, 10 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Every detail on the references that can be provided have. The majority of the interviews I found on the official Coil website did not have 100% of the details. -AlexOvShaolin--71.3.51.236 21:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Can you add how long the clips are in the fair use rationale of each audio clip used in the article? Thanks. LuciferMorgan 21:26, 17 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
All clips are approximately 30 seconds long, info added to each file's page. --AlexOvShaolin 22:36, 19 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, having copyright images in the main infobox is frowned upon, especially when the caption doesn't state the purpose, in this case it's promotion. Though the site may permit the image be distributed, if so then strike out this comment.--The Negotiator 10:31, 18 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What regarding the caption's fair use rationale do you have trouble with? Considering one of the members are deceased, what do you feel are the chances of a free alternative? LuciferMorgan 16:18, 19 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've already addressed this subject. As I am willing to be no one has sorted through more Coil images than myself (having opened a gallery on flickr of 500+) Coil images and sorted through many more, NO GNU/FREE IMAGES EXIST! The group were notorious recluses for the majority of their career and after finally performing tours wore white fluffy suits, heavily used fog and sometimes hid under tents during the performances. The majority of the live images that exist are unfit for the article and the few that may be considered fit do not feature the two leading musicians side by side, NOR ARE THEY GNU. I certainly didn't vote for copywrite to exist. --AlexOvShaolin 22:34, 19 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Is it possible to summarize the ideas and themes of their music to any extent? I've heard only a couple of their spoken-word songs ("Who'll Fall?", "Something"), and I've been wondering about the bigger picture of the kinds of things they write about. Also, "Members and style" currently focuses on members, by-and-large. When you talk about "magick" or "solar" music, and the use of various techniques and theories, just what kind of results are actually produced, and how has it varied over time? –Unint 21:13, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I put several music samples up specifically for this reason. The main composer of Coil, Peter Christopherson has poineered new genres of music since the beginning of his career (see Industrial music). The best way to describe Coil is Industrial, though the music is truly its own breed. --AlexOvShaolin 22:55, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, could you split up the albums and singles chronologies and move some of the articles for capitalization? –Unint 21:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Are you talking about Coil discography? their discography is very confusing, its best to keep it in chronological order. --AlexOvShaolin 22:55, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I mean the navigational chronology entries in the infoboxes for the individual releases: for instance, Love's Secret Domain, an album, links forward to a single, "The Snow", and backwards to another single, "Windowpane". Even if the discography were to be sorted solely by chronological order, the infoboxes as we've set them up here have always separated albums (and sometimes EPs) from singles.
Also, by fixing capitalization, I mean just lowercasing "to", "in", "the", "with", "of", etc. –Unint 20:13, 24 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Is it possible for you to add something on (a) how the demise of WSD affected the availability of the band's music; (b) their feud with Stevo and the printed taunts on later CD releases (you do mention his debt to the band)? Also I just wondered if you felt the song "Who'll Fall" was notable enough to be worthy of a mention anywhere. It's one of their most nightmarish and effective pieces, IMHO. --Richardrj talk email 09:45, 23 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"Who'll Fall" was released on a b-sides compilation (Gold Is the Metal with the Broadest Shoulders) and as a b-side to a single (alternately titled "Is Suicide A Solution?"). It is far from one of Coil's most important songs. Furthermore i consider the song less dark than "Dark River" from LSD or anything under the ELpH alias. I mentioned Coil's falling out with stevo and the "stevo pay us what you owe us" quotes are mentioned in the individual articles for the remasters. Not really the most important thing to discuss on the front page. Coil's falling out with Some Bizarre was mentioned, that's probably all that's necessary. What is WSD? --AlexOvShaolin 20:14, 23 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
World Serpent Distribution, the company that distributed CDs by Coil, C93, NWW and many others. They went bust owing money to a lot of artists and those artists' CDs were unavailable for a long time as a result. I was wondering how Coil in particular were affected by their demise. --Richardrj talk email 06:23, 24 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I wasnt aware W.S. went broke. i don't know how coil was affected by this though. --AlexOvShaolin 23:42, 24 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
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