Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Clare Stevenson/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 20:53, 5 April 2017 [1].

---

Clare Stevenson

Nominator(s): Ian Rose (talk) 12:01, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

This has been a long time coming. I took the article, on the first commander of an Australian women's military service, through MilHist A-Class Review back in 2009. It was (I believe) the project's first A-Class article about a woman. If it succeeds here, it'll be the first -- long overdue -- FA on a woman in the military biography category. I had planned to wait a while between ACR and FAC to see if any new sources turned up but little has so I think we have as comprehensive a picture of her life and career as can be expected and, besides, eight years is time enough. Thanks in advance for your comments! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:01, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Suppport Comments from Syek88

I've had a series of read-throughs of this article, including against select sources, and have very little in the way of suggestions. I think it is very well written: it has a natural flow that must have been very difficult to achieve given the extent to which material has been cobbled together from very thin sources. The second paragraph of "Early challenges" is a particularly good read.

It is both disappointing that the existing biographical material on Stevenson is so limited, yet so satisfying that here on Wikipedia we (you) have been able to fix that as best as possible. Also, the article also does an excellent job of outlining the discrimination Stevenson and her colleagues faced without bludgeoning the reader with commentary (cf Stephens and Isaacs, who do not mince words).

I have checked what sources I can. The Thomson source appears to be the most significant one not available for public access.

My only suggestions:

• ”By the end of the war a total of 27,000 women had served in the WAAAF, comprising thirty-one per cent of Air Force ground staff and filling sixty-one trades, all previously occupied by men.” I don’t think the source fully supports this. In Stephens & Isaacs the 61 and 31(.5)% figures date not to the end of the war but to July 1944. I’m not sure this is trivial because much could have changed between July 1944 and the end of the war. It wouldn't be surprising if the number 61 increased substantially.
  • Appreciate you taking the time to spotcheck sources -- you're quite right, the text as I had it was making an assumption not explicitly supported by the source, so I've reworded. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:30, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
• ”Stevenson obtained a Bachelor of Education degree from the University of Melbourne in 1948.” Is “degree” necessary? I told you I was scraping the bottom of the barrel for comments.
  • Have to admit I'm used to seeing the word "degree" in there -- could we see if any other reviewers comment on it? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:30, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
• I would suggest having the dates of her tenure as Director in the lead. It's the most important thing she did, and the casual reader might want to know that information without having to read down the page.
  • Agree, done. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:30, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Regards Syek88 (talk) 19:51, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your kind words and comments -- I'll try to look at these in the next day or two. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:24, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

My pleasure. There is nothing in the second point, so I'm marking this as (a very easy) support. Syek88 (talk) 18:51, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Images are appropriately licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:21, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Whew, it only occurred to me after I nominated that I hadn't checked/updated the image links and licences since 2009, so glad I caught 'em before you reviewed -- tks Nikki. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:24, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Support on prose per my standard disclaimer. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 22:27, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Tks as always Dan. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:24, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Comments from Mike Christie

• Are there any more details available for "Although keen to support the war effort in some capacity, she demurred"? To demur can mean anything from privately expressing unwillingness to a friend to writing a letter requesting the withdrawal of the nomination; it would be nice to know where on the spectrum her reaction fell.
  • I can probably flesh that out a little.
• Bell's resignation rather than "report to someone from outside the service fraternity" makes me wonder if anything can be said about the relationship between the two women once Bell rejoined the service? If Bell rarely interacted with Stevenson then the question isn't relevant, of course.
  • Since I wrote Bell's WP bio, which of necessity isn't as detailed as Stevenson's, I suspect I'd have picked up if there was relevant info and added it to their articles. I'll check again when I look at sources re. the previous point.
    • Mike, having re-checked several sources, including Joyce Thompson's history of the WAAAF, I can see nothing about any notable interaction following Stevenson's appointment. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:24, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
• Might be an Australian English thing, but "Stevenson considered housing, uniforms, and recruit training as her first priorities" would read better to me as "to be her first priorities".
  • Whether it's OzEng or not, happy to use your wording, Mike.
• "She drew on her retail experience to organise the WAAAF and to design its uniform": I would assume some uniform was already in place, so shouldn't this be "redesign"?
  • I think Nick-D has access to the ref for that -- Nick, would you mind double-checking?
    • Thompson's history of the WAAAF appears to confirm that no uniform had been finalised when Stevenson was appointed Director, so I think we can safely leave the statement in the article as is. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:24, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
• Suggest linking Air Member for Personnel (Australia).
  • Okay.
• Did she have a successor as Director, or was the post left vacant in the knowledge that the WAAAF would soon be disbanded?
  • I believe she did have a successor, briefly -- will check and add as appropriate.
    • Double-checking Thompson, I think I know why I didn't mention this because it's not exactly straightforward... It seems that after Stevenson's retirement, the WAAAF -- as it was -- came under the control of the Directorate of Personal Services and Wing Officer Audrey Herring, Stevenson's deputy, was appointed Staff Officer to the Directorate, make her Stevenson's effective -- but not de jure -- successor. I think this sort of detail might well belong in the WAAAF article, but perhaps not here -- WDYT? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:24, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

      I'll leave it up to you; I think it would be worth giving the reader at least a pointer, since it's a natural question, but it's not a big deal. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:03, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:45, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Thanks very much for stopping by, Mikle. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:22, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Support. The minor point remaining isn't enough to hold up support. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:03, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Source review

All sources look to be of encyclopedic quality and are consistently and appropriately cited, with the small quibble that one of the books cited has a 13 digit ISBN and the rest have 10. I'd use the ISBN converter to change that.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:21, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, probably comes from the age of the article, as I tended to only use 10-digit ISBNs back in the day -- will look at converting. Tks/cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:24, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Comments from Harry Mitchell

Just a few quibbles. This a great article, and it's wonderful to see it here given her pioneering role.

• Is it unusual that she was appointed almost against here will? Was there some sort of nomination process? I there was, do we know if she put her own hat in the ring?
  • To respond to the last point first, I'd hoped it was fairly clear in the article that she hadn't put herself forward for the position. I can probably expand a little on this per my response to one of Mike's first queries above.
• Do we know if there's a reason they chose someone with no obvious military connection?
  • I felt we covered that in the third sentence of the first para of Appointment...
• she later rejoined on the condition that she would receive no promotion higher than flight officer Is there anything more we can say about how she was persuaded to rejoin or why she made this stipulation?
  • Wrigley persuaded her; I mentioned it in Bell's article but not in Stevenson's, because it seemed more germane to Bell's, but happy to add it here.
• One-time Minister for Defence "one-time" strikes me as unusual here.
  • Heh, yes it does now you mention it -- will double-check the source but we can probably afford to lose it.
• comparable to that of "uniformed civilians" than to servicemen What does this mean? Does it mean that male officers in the mainstream RAAF didn't treat WAAF officers with military courtesy? Is "uniformed civilians" a quote from somewhere?
  • Yes, "uniformed civilians" is a quote from the source -- I can double-check if there's further explanation and, if not, perhaps attribute it inline if you think that helps.
• his preferred choice as Director I don't think "director" should be a proper noun here (there are other instances of this throughout).
  • I think I was going by the predominant way of showing it in the sources, again will double-check.
• She drew on her retail experience There's nothing about retailing explicitly mentioned above; I'm guessing this was with Berlei, but it would be nice if we could spell it out so the reader can make the connection in their mind more quickly.
  • Well I could probably say "retailer Berlei" earlier on...

—HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 12:46, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

Thanks very much for your comments, Harry. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:25, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

Support by Wehwalt

Only a few comments. I am surmising additional details on what she did during the war (did she travel, or basically stay in Victoria) would be a problem due to the limits of the sources.

• "and from 1935 to 1939 represented the company in London as a senior executive." She seemed young and without much experience to be a senior executive as I understand the term (leaving aside gender and the 1930s). Her earlier career gives no real hint about what she might be doing. If possible, can something be said about her role?
• " Air Vice Marshal George Jones. Jones backed Lukis' authority," Jones/Jones.
• Nice job.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:33, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

Support by JennyOz

Thanks for this due recognition of women, Ian. Minor comment. In regard to why she was selected - here suggests it seems related to what Berlei does - her job there involved specifically dealing with female staff. (But these are her own words, so not sure if usable here.) JennyOz (talk) 09:28, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:53, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.