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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Carabane/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:25, 17 January 2010 [1].

Carabane edit

Nominator(s): Neelix (talk) 19:52, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Toolbox

I am nominating this for featured article because all the suggestions made in the peer review have been implemented. I believe the article now meets all the FA criteria. Neelix (talk) 19:52, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Alt text clearance moved to talk. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:16, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Technical comments

  • No dab links, but refs 62, 68, and 126 have dead external links. Ref 18 is also dead, but uses an archived page for the "work" param—I think you meant to make that the main url, not the "work" url, because without the archive.org stuff it is exactly the same.
  • All images (and there's a lot—I expect image review to take up some time here) have alt text. For the map of The Gambia with two red dots, clarify that the dots are in the west and center of The Gambia (either in the alt or the prose). The Geography map doesn't have this problem because the dot location is effectively stated in the lead.
  • Check the ref dates: most appear to be Month Day, Year but a few are ISO style and there's even French dates ("Retrieved 8 juin 2008"). Pick one style. (added on 21:30, 19 November 2009 (UTC))

--an odd name 21:27, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have dealt with all the problems presented by an odd name above except one. I have restored the "work" url for ref 18 and replaced the main url with the archived page. I have also clarified the alt for the map of The Gambia to specify the location of the two dots. The ref dates are now all formatted Month Day, Year. The only problem I'm not sure how to deal with is the three dead external links. How should I fix this problem? Neelix (talk) 21:55, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, dates look consistent Month Day, Year now. I can't find the dead links in Google cache or the Wayback. Remove them if they're just giving trivial facts; keep them and search around for another source for the cited facts if they're more important. --an odd name 06:04, 20 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have switched ref 62 from a reference to the article online to a reference to the article in print. The external link for ref 68 has been switched to a link to an archived version of the page. The article referred to in ref 126 is also found on another website, so I switched the link. There should be no more dead external links in the article. Neelix (talk) 19:26, 20 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All external links work now. --an odd name 22:28, 20 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments A nice article, but some niggles on first read I'll have a more detailed read through when I can. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:34, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • There were some typos, and other infelicities, and the style of English varied between BE and AE (eg "colourful", but all units in meters, not metres. Since it's West Africa, I've tried to standardise as BE. I've made these changes, please check
Damn, you're a Canadian - I should have realised, since I went to Nova Scotia in September. I still think BE is more appropriate, but if you want to restore CE, that's not an issue. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 08:07, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Metric units need imperial conversions to help the poor old yanks also nautical miles to metric
  • mudflats are exposed so that boats with keels can easily dock. When arriving at Carabane, the Joola had to stop about 500 m north of the village in 8 to 10 m of water. isn't this contradictory?
  • It's stretching things a bit to call the MacDonald's birding trip an ornithological survey, but the birds are typical of the area, and in my Birds of The Gambia and Senegal, so I don't think the facts are challengeable, and I'm happy to let the ref stand Jimfbleak - talk to me? 08:21, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Similarly with the French fish ref, I appreciate how difficult it is to get cast iron sources, and I would support you if the refs are challenged, since the content is clearly correct. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 08:26, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for fixing the typos, Jim! I'm quite alright with using British English in the article considering the part of the world being addressed; it was simply more natural for me to write it in Canadian English. I have converted all the remaining measurements so that both metric and imperial are displayed, including the one reference to nautical miles.
The two sentences about boats arriving at the island are not intended to state contradictory things. The first sentence states that it is easy for boats to dock on the island because their keels shift into the exposed mudflats, allowing them to dock securely (ie. there are no exposed rocks to damage the bottom of the boats). The second sentence states that the Joola had to stop about 500 m north of the village because the water surrounding the island is so shallow (ie. the mudflats are relatively close to the surface of the water). Boats can easily dock at the island, but not very close to the island. Do you feel the explanation of this in the article needs to be clarified? Neelix (talk) 16:41, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm no sailor and I assumed mudflats would be a hindrance, not a help, so perhaps clarification would be good; any way, I'm happy to
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Note I did not check the reliability of the non-English sources. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:28, 24 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Neither the two references linking to Wikipedia articles nor the one linking to an image in the Commons was intended to contain citation information, just helpful links; I was not attempting to suggest that any information in the article was sourced by those references. Nonetheless, I have removed all three references. I have also removed all the "English" tags on the English source references in the article and I have added the "French" tag to ref 34. As for http://www.camacdonald.com/birding/tripreports/Senegal98.html, I don't know what to state as a publisher because the report was never published in print. It was written by Artur Degollada i Soler on July 14, 1998 with the title Lista de las aves observadas en Senegal and is presented to the English-speaking world online by Tina MacDonald. I do not believe that published ornithological studies of the island exist, so this is the most reliable information which is available about birds in Carabane. Neelix (talk) 19:28, 24 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I would support the inclusion of the MacDonald reference. I have a reliable source, the standard text The Birds of The Gambia and Senegal, which establishes that the listed birds are present in the wider Casamance area, and makes it very likely that the listed source is correct in terms of content. Unless you are challenging the content, I would let the ref stand. Alternatively, I could add the book ref as well, in a supporting role. The worst case scenario, if you are adamant on this, would be to remove An ornithological study in 1998 discovered the following species on the island and replace with The following birds are typical of the Casamance area, plus the book ref. However, this seems a retrograde step, diluting the information specific to the island despite the near certainty that it is actually correct Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:53, 25 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Let's approach this from another angle, who is Tina MacDonald? Is she an orinthologist? If so, she may qualify under WP:SPS. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:13, 25 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
According to her website, Tina MacDonald is a novice birder who has done extensive research and study but has not received formal education in ornithology. Her website, which hosts a large number of unpublished ornithological surveys, is cited on the websites of the University of Richmond, the Southeastern Arizona Bird Observatory, the Information Security Group, and the National Audubon Society. Intute says that MacDonald's "outstanding site offers a comprehensive guide to bird watching hotspots around the world." MacDonald does not have a degree in ornithology, however her website is considered credible by established organizations. Neelix (talk) 15:52, 25 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Let's do this then, throw up the book cite on top of the MacDonald, and we'll consider it close enough for other reviewers to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:54, 25 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK, supporting book reference added Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:36, 25 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What's the status on the other concerns? Ealdgyth - Talk 16:15, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Are you referring to your second, third, and fourth bullets? If so, I took care of them as soon as you mentioned them; my explanation of how I did so is contained in my first response here. Neelix (talk) 22:02, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Comments - I am copyediting the article as I go through, as the prose can do with some reworking. Please revert any changes which inadvertently change the meaning. I will post queries below: Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:16, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
After years of development and community outreach, Carabane is now experiencing a series of trials. - I don't get this, I suspect it doesn't mean legal trials, so what is it referring to?
References come at the end of sentences or clauses (i.e. after a full stop or comma)
Oysters are also a source of income, and Carabane is located in the center of the collection zone, which is one of the reasons why boats formerly called at the island. At one point, oysters were easily transported from Carabane to Dakar, where they were either sold by the pickers themselves or by hawkers. - do the previous refs ref this as well?
Along with the mangrove degradation, the civil unrest, and the inadequate fishery regulation, Casamance has had to deal with the closure of a major industrial complex in Ziguinchor in 2003 which employed more than 2000 people. - does the previous ref (115) reference this as well?
They return to help their parents in the rice fields and participate in religious ceremonies during the dry season, but they tend to settle off the island permanently. - does the previous ref (117) reference this as well?


French anthropologist Louis-Vincent Thomas posed the question of whether Carabane should be saved - is this overly dramatic? Would "preserved" be more appropriate in this sentence and the next?

Looks okay otherwise. Look forward to supporting soon. Might have another look at copyediting. Prose is now better but a few minor improvements might be out there. Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:36, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the copyediting, Casliber. Here are my responses to your questions:
  1. After years of development and community outreach, Carabane is now experiencing a series of trials. - The word "trials" is used to refer to the social struggles the village has been facing: the declining population, the Casamance Conflict, the sinking of the Joola, etc. Can you think of a way of making this clearer?
  2. Oysters are also a source of income, and Carabane is located in the center of the collection zone, which is one of the reasons why boats formerly called at the island. At one point, oysters were easily transported from Carabane to Dakar, where they were either sold by the pickers themselves or by hawkers. - Ref 113 is the source for this information.
  3. Along with the mangrove degradation, the civil unrest, and the inadequate fishery regulation, Casamance has had to deal with the closure of a major industrial complex in Ziguinchor in 2003 which employed more than 2000 people. - Yes, ref 115 is the source for this information.
  4. They return to help their parents in the rice fields and participate in religious ceremonies during the dry season, but they tend to settle off the island permanently. - Yes, ref 117 is the source for this information
  5. French anthropologist Louis-Vincent Thomas posed the question of whether Carabane should be saved - A direct translation of the title of Thomas's article is "Is it necessary to save Carabane?" Similarly, a direct translation of Diatta's article is "Who is to save Diogué-Nikine-Carabane?" The questions they pose are dramatic, but I suppose we can tone them down. Neelix (talk) 18:54, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have read the last through a few times, and changed to one verb each. Actually I do think "save" adds something when added right at the end. Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:51, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I believe all the citations are now located after full stops. As for your first bullet, what do you think of changing the word 'trials' to 'difficulties'? Neelix (talk) 22:03, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think 'difficulties' is better. Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:01, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Neelix (talk) 23:43, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image review
    • File:Joola.jpg does not have the original author information.
    • Others seem to check out.

--Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 17:24, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure how to fix this problem. Going here, I can see the image listed and licensed by Creative Commons, but no original author is given on the website. What should be done? Neelix (talk) 18:34, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I would remove and tag the image. World66 blanket-marks everything as free, but its disclaimer says it makes no garauntees, so the image could be possibly non-free. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 02:33, 5 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The image has been removed from the article and a tag has been placed on the image recommending its deletion. Neelix (talk) 16:07, 5 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Tony (talk) 10:55, 17 December 2009 (UTC) Badly overlinked. Images tiny and too numerous.[reply]

  • Why is "island" linked? In fact, the whole article needs a serious link audit.
  • Why is "WWII" linked? Far too general for this context; can you find a daughter article or a section to link to that is more apposite? If not, unlink.
  • "widely-held"; please see User:Tony1/Beginners'_guide_to_the_Manual_of_Style#Hyphens.2A.
  • Many of the images are tiny. Take the Animism one: not good res, I admit, but the details are impossible to make out. It's unfair to those with a slow connection, who have a hard time opening the image; for everyone else, it's plain irritating. Why the unreadable customs table? Please put a table in the main text (or a summary or sample from it), since it would have to be rather large to make sense to us. The is far to small to read. The caption for "solar lighting": which wide roads? Surely they're not all like that. And the impression is that solar lighting is used for roads all over the country ... I doubt it. Kayendo: too small. Two paddy-type pics, both tiny. Remove one and make it a little larger. Tony (talk) 13:50, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have removed the link to island and retargeted the links to the World Wars so that they now direct to the West African theatres. I have removed the hypens in the two instances of "widely-held." I have enlarged the Animism image and removed the French customs table; if there are too many images on the article, this one seems to be the least important. I have also removed the image of the checkerboard-like paddy fields and enlarged the image of the levees protecting the paddy fields. As for the caption on the solar lighting image, the information is correct as is. The only roads on the island are far wider than need be because they were constructed for use by vehicles which never arrived. All the roads on the island employ solar lighting. There is no indication that this is true off the island in other parts of Senegal; I'm not sure how a user would get that impression. Nonetheless, I'm open to suggestions about how to make the wording less ambiguous. I feel that the remaining links and images are appropriate, however I would be willing to remove any which others deem superfluous. Neelix (talk) 15:06, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks; much better. But why is "tax" linked? We know what that means. This is not Wiktionary. Readers are expected to know the language. Why "prerogatives"? They simply make it much less likely that readers will click on "law enforcement", which does go to a specific target: "Law enforcement in Senegal"—nice. The link to "wise old men" is, I have to say, extremely European and historical in focus. Does this put the readers off the scent? Consider piping the article "Jola language" to "their language", not just "language", as a signal that the link-target is specific, not a dictionary term. Can you go through all of the article, please, and ensure the linking is professional? These exercises may help. Tony (talk) 11:05, 11 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have read through the exercises you indicated and I have attempted to implement them as well as I could throughout the article. If you have further concerns about the linking in the article, please let me know. Neelix (talk) 15:49, 11 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments
I read the Martin Klein reference, but it doesn't seem to say much about slavery in Carabane; I don't see anything there that pertains to slavery in Carabane which isn't already expressed in the article. Other than two comments about runaway slaves, the only information on the topic I can find in the Martin Klein reference states "Carabane was dominated by a métis planter who grew rice and produced lime with slave labor. The slave trade was pursued there openly at first and then clandestinely until the early twentieth century." The Carabane article currently says more than that about slavery on the island: "Arriving on the west African coast in the 15th century, the Portuguese were active in the region from the 16th century onwards, mostly in search of wax, ivory, and slaves." "The Baudin family employed slaves and, despite the declaration of its abolition in the French colonial empire in 1848, this slavery continued on the island until the early 20th century." "While the Mandinka Muslims continued, illegally, to practice slavery and trade, non-Muslim villages tended to come together, accepting the Resident of Carabane as the arbitrator of their disagreements." etc. If anything, the article makes more of the slavery issue than the Martin Klein reference. I would gladly add more information about slavery in Carabane to the article if there was more which could be added, but all the information in the particular reference you mention is already included in the article. Neelix (talk) 14:18, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support (media licensing and cites not checked) - the article is informative, engaging and comprehensive and contains a wealth of relevant illustrations. I note that image size has been queried, but given the generous number of images I think the small size is sensible so as not to overwhelm the article—the reader can click to see better when interested in a particular view. A few detailed comments follow; I'll probably add others, and may do minor copyedits rather than listing them so please revert if any problems result.

  • The lead's a bit long but I think it's probably justified.
  • Throughout the article, there are rather a lot of common words linked. For example, "The local economy was based mainly on rice". Moreover, the word "rice" has already appeared several times with no link (including an earlier appearance in the same paragraph). The article needs going through to remove unnecessary links per WP:Overlinking.
  • "Signs of erosion have been observed since 1849. The house of the government representative on the island has burned down twice and was rebuilt both times." - two apparently unrelated sentences. A third sentence then explains the connection but this is confusing and the passage should be reworked.
  • "The testimonies of explorers and colonial administrators demonstrate that Carabane has participated in rice cultivation, fishery, trade, and palm wine production for a long time." - "a long time" is unnecessarily vague. At least an order of magnitude should be indicated (perhaps "for centuries"?).
  • "At one time, the island was considered an arid location,[11] where coconuts were the only useful plants likely to flourish and vegetables were difficult to produce.[23] In what is now a tropical climate, vegetation is more abundant than in the north, especially during the wet season." - it's unclear what "in the north" (where there is less abundant vegetation than on the island) refers to.
  • "the Jola people, the ethnic group which remains the most populous on the island to this day." - the last three words are superfluous (and I believe deprecated, although I can't find where I read that).
  • "The ceasefire of 2004 brought relative peace, but in the meantime, the sinking of the Joola in 2002 claimed the lives of many inhabitants of Carabane and cut off much of its ability to engage in trade and accept tourists. In considering the threat of coastal erosion, some fear the worst.[68] After years of development and community outreach, Carabane is now experiencing a series of difficulties.[69] In 1998, the French commune of Bon-Encontre committed to providing Carabane with humanitarian aid, both economically and culturally." - the connection between the consecutive sentences is unclear, as is the nature of the difficulties Carabane is now experiencing, since the chronology reverses through the paragraph from 2004 to 1998.
  • "Along with the mangrove degradation, the civil unrest, and the inadequate fishery regulation, Casamance has had to deal with the closure of a major industrial complex in Ziguinchor in 2003 which employed more than 2000 people." - this should make clear the nature of the major industrial complex and its relevance to the Aquaculture section in which these words appear.

PL290 (talk) 17:07, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have addressed all the points you have made above by editing the article; please check my solutions and let me know if they meet with your approval. The only concern you have raised which I have not fully addressed is the overlinking. I have removed all the links to rice except the first, which I retargeted to the Africa section on that article. I have already done a thorough review of the article to remove extraneous links and make generic links more specific. Would it be possible for you to list some of the common terms being linked so I will know which to remove? Neelix (talk) 02:24, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As requested I will try to list a few examples. I may be incorrect, but just picking some at random I have the impression that some or all of the following may be unnecessarily linked: rain, farmers, vegetables, peanut, coconuts, palm trees, clay, straw, mud bricks, marshy, oyster, drinking water, humidity, oranges. However, judgement by editors is necessary according to the topic and article, so I will simply leave the comment open for the nominator and other reviewers to take any further action if deemed appropriate. Thank you for your responses; all my concerns have been met. PL290 (talk) 10:08, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your extensive copyediting. I have removed the links to the common terms you listed. Neelix (talk) 12:36, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Karanacs. Overall, this is a very good article and I am happy to see such fine work on a topic that is underrepresented on Wikipedia. I have a few quibbles that I expect will be easy for you to fix.

  • I saw quite a few claims that need to be properly cited. I'm not sure if this is a problem of not having a citation at all for the claims, or if the citation style used needs to be changed. These are the passages that I believe need to be sourced:
    • The lack of clay is the reason that architecture on the island employs straw wrapped around wooden frames more often than banco mud bricks. This type of architecture is also common in the villages of Mlomp and Seleki.
    • These tangles help retain soil, a process which expands the island where the power of tidal race would normally have the opposite effect
    • and the information it contains remains valuable today.
    • Tourists are not as attracted to the island for its mangroves as for the coconut trees which line its beaches, featured on many of Carabane's postcards. These palm trees are a valued resource on the island.
    • particularly because the inhabitants of Gorée were threatened with losing part of their resources with the imminent demise of the slave trade, and also because of their competition with Saint-Louis.
    • By the following year, the Christian community had performed 1100 baptisms, as well as many catechumen.
    • was insufficient staffing, cost of living was rising, and the harsh climate began to wear on the buildings. In 1920, the diocese had, in addition to Carabane, thirteen churches and approximately thirty-five chapels.
    • the Carabane church was one of the buildings selected, some members blamed the colonial administration for having facilitated the expansion of Islam in the country
    • Although many of them were Wolofs and Muslims, they did not know the Jola country and its traditions. The periods of drought that ravaged the Sahel in the 1970s forced peanut farmers to move to regions where rice was all that grew
    • In particular, the location of the island does not allow easy access to serious or urgent medical assistance. The pirogue-ambulance funded by the regional council is used only as a last resort
    • . The main portion is manufactured from a very hard wood measuring 2 to 2.5 metres (6 ft 7 in to 8 ft 2 in) in length. The kayendo is mainly used to plough rice fields, but is also used for other purposes, such as excavation and construction
    • Badji Malang, a local painter, potter, sculptor, and poet, has created a camp in the area.
  • The house of the government representative on the island has burned down twice and was rebuilt both times. The subsequent erosion is evident when one considers that the original location of the house is now flooded, even at low tide -> Did the fires directly impact the erosion (that is what the "subsequently" implied to me)? If not, do we really need to discuss the fires or can this be framed more generally?
  • Should have conversions from degrees C to degrees F
  • In a few places, the article may be overly detailed. Is is necessary to provide the name of the report (and the translation) that Bertrand-Bocande submitted?
  • If the oldest inhabitants of Casamance are the Bainuk people, the left bank of the mouth of the river was mostly populated by the Jola - Is there a question of whether the Bainuk people were the oldest inhabitants? Is the fact that the Jola inhabited the left bank dependent on whether the Bainuk were the oldest inhabitants in the region? this may need to be reworded.
  • I'm not sure how the point about poor sanitation fits into the paragraph on rice/lime. Can this be explained a bit more?
  • I think "employed slaves" is probably a bit of an oxymoron. Can this be reworded?
  • Was the Baudin brother really JOhn, or was his name actually Jean (the French version)? I see that both spellings are used.
  • Is this François Mendy School or François Mendy Ecole?

Karanacs (talk) 16:11, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Of your nine main bullets, I believe that I have fully addressed the last eight by way of my edits. Please let me know if there is anything left to do with them. As for your first bullet, the sourcing confusion with various statements, I have only clarified the sourcing for some of them. Of the twelve, I have clarified the sourcing for #'s 5, 6, 7, 8, and 12. I am confident that #'s 1, 2, 9, 10, and 11 are sourced by references which are included near them, however I do not have access to those sources and therefore cannot verify that this is the case. While the same may be true of #'s 3 and 4, I think it likely that they are not sourced. What would you suggest I do? Neelix (talk) 01:30, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your very prompt response. I've stricken the comments that you've addressed. I am concerned about the statements that still have no sourcing. These that I highlighed (there were more unsourced statements in the article) really need a source, as they are expressing opinions or reasons for events. If you can't find any other sources to cover these facts, they may need to be removed from the article. Karanacs (talk) 14:55, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have tried to find alternate sourcing for these seven statements, however I have been unsuccessful. I have contacted Ji-Elle, the main contributor of the original article on the French Wikipedia, to determine the sourcing for these statements. Ji-Elle was very prompt in responding to my request and has agreed to look into it within the next couple days. Can the conclusion of the FAC wait until Ji-Elle gets back to me with this information? If not, would removing these seven statements from the article be an acceptable temporary solution? Neelix (talk) 16:21, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have heard back from Ji-Elle about four of the remaining seven statements requiring citation and I have added the citations to the article accordingly. The remaining three to be sourced are #'s 2, 3, and 4. I will add these citations when Ji-Elle gets back to me. Neelix (talk) 16:11, 21 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ji-Elle has gotten back to me with citations for the remaining unsourced statements. I have added the citations to the article accordingly. I believe that the entire article is now fully sourced with clear citations. Neelix (talk) 17:08, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Neelix's recent edits have satisfied my sourcing concerns. Thank you for your hard work - this is an excellent article. Karanacs (talk) 18:07, 28 December 2009 (UTC) [reply]

(ec) Support, assuming Neelix's edits have addressed K's questions. Fascinating piece. A couple of my own minor queries:

  • Lead: "Although Carabane was once a regional capital in its own right, the village no longer fits into the social structure decreed by the Senegalese government". I read the very interesting, if somewhat complex, section that this is intended to summarise. The lead sentence does not however make sense to me. It appears to be about two unrelated points, so the use of "Although...," is inappropriate. Alternatively, the intended meaning could be "Although Carabane was once a regional capital in its own right, the village no longer qualifies as a capital under Senegalese government policy." One way or the other, this sentence needs tweaking.
  • "If the oldest inhabitants of Casamance are the Bainuk people, the left bank of the mouth of the river was mostly populated by the Jola". I didn't understand this sentence. Is the intended meaning: "While the oldest inhabitants of Casamance may be the Bainuk people, the left bank of the mouth of the river was mostly populated by the Jola"? If so, suggest this be amended accordingly.
  • I have reduced overlinking: feel free to check the balance and reduce further if you think it's worth it. hamiltonstone (talk) 01:57, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your copy editing and reduction of overlinking. I have reworded the two sentences you mentioned; let me know if they are still unclear. Neelix (talk) 14:24, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Better - i have changed "social" to "administrative" structure as being what I think is more accurate language. Otherwise all OK. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:26, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Concern; this article was a translation from the French wiki article. Were all of the original sources consulted by the nominator, and all text verified? There were serious WP:LAYOUT issues that seem to have come from the French version, and why are website publishers in italics? Also, books need publishers. I would like to see a French speaker check some of the sources for verification. There is also text sandwiched between images in many sections, including "Historic sites" (see WP:MOS#Images). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:36, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have taken care of the missing publishers in the bibliography section; most were present but were accidentally placed in the 'editor' rather than 'publisher' field. You say that there were layout issues; do some persist? I do not know how to unitalicize the website publishers; is it possible that this is a function of the template? Also, what do you suggest to avoid image sandwiching? The primary editor of the French article, Ji-Elle, has reviewed the article and complimented me on the translation. Which sources do you feel need to be checked for verification? I believe Ji-Elle would be willing to check them for us. Neelix (talk) 03:02, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have corrected the layout. I still see quite a bit of text that needs citation (opinions and numbers), and the concern with a translation is that, unless the main editor has access to and has reviewed all of the original sources, how does s/he know that the article is comprehensive and/or accurately reflects the sources? FAs cannot be built via translation. Can the French author not send you all of the source material? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:01, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am sure Ji-Elle would be willing to send me the source material, however it would be much easier for Ji-Elle to simply verify that the English article accurately relates the information found in that material and state so here. Would you consider this an acceptable solution? Neelix (talk) 03:37, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This will have to be resolved by reviewer consensus, and it is troubling that none of the reveiwers raised the issue. See WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT; in this case, the English article got its text from the French Wiki, not from the original sources. Translated articles, in which the translator does not access the original sources, by definition cannot meet WP:V, a core policy, which assumes the writer accessed the original sources. The translation relies on the original source of the fr.wiki, and Wiki is not a reliable source. An additional issue is that WP:NONENG must be accounted for. A third problem is that WP:V prefers (but does not require) English-language sources; was a search done for information in English? For example, this source contains some info that seems at odds with article content; I don't know if it's a good source. Another English source. Not sure about this one or this one, but English sources of info should be available. This entire issue needs to be revisited by supporting reviewers and resolved; how it can be resolved will depend on reviewer consensus. Yet another issue is that the article still contains numbers and opinions that are unsourced (and I came across a sentence that started with a number-- it should be recast so that it doesn't start with a number). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:22, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Why not just delete all articles based on translations, and abolish the projects which encourage such translations? Your view, which appears to go beyond actual policies in several cases, isn't followed in even 1% of those translations, I'll bet. Gene Nygaard (talk) 18:30, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Which is why it's an issue for reviewer consensus, but it is not disputed that Wiki is not a reliable source, and Featured articles must be based on reliable sources. Translations may be getting by on Wiki, even though they violate core policy, but FA standards are higher. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:34, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the various Wikipedias are not a reliable source. But I'm assuming that this article does cite reliable sources. That's what you need to go by here; whether or not the cited sources support the statements in this article. It doesn't matter in the least whether any particular editor has read those sources; what matters is whether they back up what is said. Gene Nygaard (talk) 18:45, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note also that User:Ji-Elle is, in a very minor way, a contributor to this article (putting the star on the interwiki link). From what has been said here, it appears that she has read the cited sources, and that she has read this English article and understands it well enough to think that it accurately reflects the sources. It would appear that she is competent to assess that, even if she is not comfortable enough with the English to do the editing here. So, would it satisfy your objections if she posted a statement to that effect on the article's talk page? I see no reason why it couldn't be in French, at least with respect to any detailed analysis. And Neelix or someone else could even provide an English translation there if she does use French. Gene Nygaard (talk) 19:17, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As I said, whether we should set the precedent of elevating a translation to featured status, when the translator did not have access to the original sources, is a matter for reviewer consensus. But before we can even consider that, WP:NONENG, the inclusion of English-language sources to the extent they are available, the sandwiching of text between images, and the unsourced text need to be addressed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:25, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You have shown nothing to be contrary to WP:NONENG. We don't need wild speculation here. Furthermore, issues about images or whatever should be dealt with separately, not in this thread. Gene Nygaard (talk) 19:37, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
hmmm. Anyway, I've raised this at WT:FAC for broader discussion; as delegate, I don't want the position of establishing a new FA precedent in the absence of broader discussion. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:53, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
SandyGeorgia: I have added citations to all the statements to which you affixed the "cn" template. Please let me know if there are other statements in the article for which you would like clearer citations. Also, you mention in one of your edit summaries that overlinking still exists within the article. This issue has already been addressed at length. Would you be able to specify which terms have been inappropriately linked? Neelix (talk) 20:42, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is particularly objectionable because at the time that Jimfbleak made those changes, there were no metre spellings on the edit page of the article. Yes, there were "-metre" spellings in the article, but every one of them was the result either of ignorance, or of deliberately improper use of the black box {{convert}}. That template defaults to British spellings, and you need to jump through hoops to get it to comply with the existing usage within an article. That wasn't done by whoever first put those convert templates in this page. Gene Nygaard (talk) 03:26, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I hope I'm not being accused of bad faith here. I picked up what appeared to me to be a mix of AE and BE and standardised to the latter as being more appropriate for West Africa, where BE is standard. When I realised the main editor was Canadian, I offered to revert my edits to CE, but he accepted the changes as more appropriate also. I didn't put in the convert templates, which personally I wouldn't touch with a bargepole, and I read "-metre". Why are my actions, which I offered to reverse, "objectionable" - or is it just that changing apparent AE spelling is blasphemy by definition? Jimfbleak - talk to me? 09:01, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I realize that you saw "metres". I think I'll stick around to make sure that every article going through this FA process gets reviewed for various templates (many of the infobox templates do the same thing, though spelling changes are less likely to occur there because they are more likely to use symbols for the units of measure) sneaking in varieties-of-English changes.
Another problem is that the templates sometimes cannot even be set to give the proper spelling. For example, the sp=us parameter in {{convert}} doesn't even work in cases such as this:
  • {{convert|3.7|t|lb|sp=us}} which yields 3.7 metric tons (8,200 lb).
Despite that having the sp=us set, it gives us a spelling much more foreign to American English than "litre" is. The only solution is to remove the template and enter the measurements properly. Gene Nygaard (talk) 10:37, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also, with respect to national varieties of English, it is only for articles closely related to English-speaking countries for which we look at the variety of English used there. For French-speaking countries, or whatever, the location isn't supposed to be a factor. We also don't use the spelling "meter" just because an article deals with Germany, or Norway, or Sweden, or the Netherlands, or Iceland, or whatever.
That convert template is an incredibly complex behemoth waiting to pounce on the unwary. Good grief, it takes thousands of subtemplates, each on a separate template page, for it to work. I wish more editors were like you, realizing that they are out of their league and avoiding it. Few editors are willing to invest the time to learn even the rudiments of its complexity, and perhaps nobody understands everything it might do. (There is even a way to get "3.7 metric tons (8,200 lb)*" as a result, but you cannot do so by setting the sp= parameter if you use the proper symbol t for metric tons to identify the units.) Gene Nygaard (talk) 11:01, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Amen to that, even in its intended task, the template sometimes converts narrow ranges to give nonsense like 97–97 cm. More to the point, what action are you suggesting? Although it was not intended, BE is not inappropriate for this article, and is accepted by the Canadian nominator. Are you asking that the Canadian English spellings be restored as a matter of principle? If not, please clarify what you want me or the nominator to do (I wouldn't revert the spelling unless the main editor agreed) Jimfbleak - talk to me? 11:05, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, yes, of course. Despite the apparent beliefs of some of the denizens of these pages, the nominator does not own this article. British English would not be inappropriate; but neither is American English. So our rules are that it shouldn't have been changed. Certainly not without any discussion on the article's talk page about it. Gene Nygaard (talk) 03:36, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
WP:RETAIN is a behavioural guideline and not a valid reason to oppose. WP:RETAIN specifically governs the case where the dialect choice makes no difference to the quality of the article, and is an arbitrary means of settling disputes and should not be used to create them. An honest mistake was made and the dialect got changed. Changing it back purely to satisfy wiki-pedantry will not improve the article or make anyone happier. At FA, we review the current text of the article for conformance to content guidelines. Issues with editor behaviour, or aspects of article history are not relevant and should be discussed elsewhere if at all. Colin°Talk 22:18, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You are hoist on your own petard. The changes took place during the FA review. So by your own admission, you should be restoring it. Gene Nygaard (talk) 00:07, 6 January 2010 (UTC)01:37, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Bibliography contains Mark Peter and Peter Mark; which is it? (please put in alphabetical order) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:23, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • A WP:MOSNUM (1300 vs. 1,300) review is needed throughout, as is WP:MOSDATE#Precise language (avoid the use of terms like "today", which becomes outdated, instead include as of dates ... I would add precise language myself, but I can't read the sources. Words like "today", "now" and "currently" occur a couple dozen times in the article.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:09, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have completed the WP:MOSNUM, WP:MOSDATE#Precise language, and WP:ENDASH reviews. Please let me know if there are other reviews of the article you feel need to be done. Neelix (talk) 20:36, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments continued. I've done a major cleanup of the reference formatting (note that for cite web, use the publisher paramater instead of work) and this has exposed some additional concerns. Several of the references are without publishers. In one case (Gregg...) a book does not include a page number. I also spotted several other sentences that need to be cited. I've added {{fact}} tags to these in the article. I'll be going through the sources more thoroughly over the next few days and will post additional comments here. Karanacs (talk) 20:38, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • no title or author for Teranga, Nov-Dec 2007
  • What makes [3] a reliable source? This appears to be a self-published website.
  • many of the journal articles reference a range of pages rather than a single page (or two). Can you verify that the whole range is the appropriate citation for these facts, or should it be more specific?
  • The Cormier-Salem reference from 1989 has a weird date - can you please verify this
  • There are two references to Marie-Christine Cormier-Salem and one to Marie-Christine Cormier. Can we please verify that the one without the Salem is correct?
  • What makes Kassoumay a reliable source? In a brief look at the site, I couldn't tell who publishes it - it seems like a tourist website.
  • The doctoral thesis needs to be better cited - the publisher is not correct. Has this thesis been used as a source by any other scholars?
  • This reference needs a publisher listed: Jacques Diatta (January 7, 2007). "Qui pour sauver Diogué-Nikine-Carabane?". http://wikiwix.com/cache/?url=http://diembering-aadd.com/index.php?option=com_content%26task=view%26id=13%26Itemid=1. Retrieved November 19, 2009.
  • needs a publisher: Denise Savigneau (May 1938). "Rapport n° 17 (La Casamance)". http://www.hull.ac.uk/savineau/reports/french/rapport17.rtf. Retrieved January 19, 2009.

Karanacs (talk) 21:09, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks so much for the reference formatting cleanup; the reference and bibliography sections look great. A substantial number of concerns have been raised over the past few hours. Considering the slow trickle of suggestions for improvement over the past month that this article has been undergoing its featured article candidacy, I must admit that I am overwhelmed. I will attempt to address the new concerns as swiftly as possible, however the shear number of them may prohibit the sort of quick responses and solutions which I have been keen to supply throughout the past month. I have notified Ji-Elle about the concerns which have been raised; Ji-Elle is fluent in English and may be able to respond to some of these questions more aptly than I. I can address four of the issues right now and will attempt as many others as I can tomorrow.
  1. I have added the title and author to the Teranga citation; it was included in another citation already.
  2. The only thing that the DaKite source is cited for is the information that kitesurfing takes place in Carabane. I would expect that a website published by a kitesurfing company (DaKite) which offers kitesurfing in Carabane would be an appropriate source for this information, however I can look for another if you think it necessary.
  3. I have added the publisher to the Diatta citation.
  4. I have added the publisher to the Savigneau citation.
Neelix (talk) 05:49, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have verified that the Marie-Christine Cormier citation is correct. I don't know why an author would use different forms of her surname on different articles published in the same year, however we must go based on the citation information presented on the sources themselves wherever possible. Also, which doctoral thesis requires supplimentary citation information? Petit or Guilera? As for the Kassoumay website, it is published by a company called Kassoumay. They offer various tourism-related services in the Casamance area. I would expect that it is a reliable source for the same reason that DaKite is a reliable source, however I can look for another to source the information it currently sources in the article if you believe it necessary. Neelix (talk) 17:44, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have now added the page number to the Gregg reference. Have you identified citations lacking publishers other than the ones you list above? If not, I believe all the citations are now supplied with publishers. Neelix (talk) 17:49, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ji-Elle has gotten back to me with much information, the most important item of which is that the date for the Cormier-Salem 1989 reference is correct. I have also been able to add citations to the two statements to which you affixed the "fact" template. Neelix (talk) 19:13, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for verifying all that! I've finished what I'm planning to do of the ref cleanup. More questions/comments:

  • The book Senegal et Gambie needs an author, if possible
  • Several books don't have ISBNs listed.
  • Need a publisher for Entrepreneurs en Vedette
  • Please go through all the references closely to make sure that I didn't miss anything. Journals and books should be listed in the sources section, and only the reference (author name/title and date) and page number in references. Please check also for formatting - no extra characters, should be periods after the page numbers, etc.
  • Please make sure that both doctoral theses are clearly marked as such (in English). The catalan language one is the only one I had recognized as a thesis, and the publisher on it doesn't seem right.

Thanks! Karanacs (talk) 17:53, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]


I spent some time today examining various English-language sources that I had partial access to so that I would have a better idea of whether the article was truly comprehensive. (My next step is to examine some of the French sources, but I don't think I have time for that today.) I was pleased to note how highly some of the sources used in the article already have been rated by their pears (Louis-Vincent Thomas and Christian Roche have been cited in many of the sources I consulted). I had trouble finding English-language sources that discussed much of anything beyond the history. My overall impression from this is that the history of the article does cover most of the key facts, but leaves out a lot of the context.

  • In general, areas that I think may need more fleshing out are: (Note that I don't know for sure if there is information available on each of these points - this is intended to be a list of suggestions for further research)
    • the slave trade - this was a huge part of African history in general, and there is very little information given here on how this might have affected Carabane, and whether Carabane's experience was different from that of other parts of the region.
    • colonial competition - although it is mentioned that there was some competition among different colonies, we're not told why, or how this might have played out, or even what the result was.
    • colonial supremacy - we're given a brief overview of the fact that the people didn't take to French authority very well, but not told much detail.
    • sinking of the Joola - this is mentioned in several places in passing. Can we get a few more details?
  • recent violence - this is mentioned, but little context is given in how the local conflict relates to what is going on in the rest of the region.
  • List of sources that may prove useful. Note that the links are to Google books, but the entire books are not accessible. You do not have to use these sources - they are mainly suggestions as to the type of information that might be available.
    • This book has some information that may be useful about how Bertrand-Bocande' gained recognition of French sovereignity. - [4] Robert Aldrich, Greater France: A History of French Overseas Expansion, published by Palgrave
    • A tiny bit of info about French-Portuguese competition - [5] Boubacar Barry. Senegambia and the Atlantic Slave Trade, published by Cambridge University Press, 1998
    • I can't access this book, but I suspect it may have some useful information - [6] - Alice Joy Hamer - Tradition and change: a social history of Diola women (Southwest Senegal) in the Twentieth Century - University of Michigan
    • A quick search of the Peter Mark source "Portuguese" style... on Google books indicates that there is more information in that book that could be useful
    • Mark's other book, A cultural, economic, and religious history of the Basse Casamance since 1500 is listed in the references but not used. I suspect this will have a great deal of useful information.
    • This book [7] also has information about Jola/Diola culture and one modern perspective on whether the Casamance is actually part of Senegal. This perspective is not really seen in the article.
    • Klein's book Slavery and colonial rule in French West Africa is only used once in the article. Per the limited preview on Google books, this may provide more information about how the slave trade affected Carabane
    • This [8] has further information about the language spoken in Carabane - Thomas Albert Sebeok, Current Trends in linguistics: Linguistics in sub-Saharan Africa
    • Here's a reference to a medical article that mentioned an epidemic that killed all Europeans in Carabane [9]
    • There's no preview of this book, but I wonder if it would be useful - 'Shrines of the slave trade: Diola religion and society in precolonial Senegambia By Robert Martin Baum

Karanacs (talk) 19:20, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A few more things on the existing sources:

  • Reference 17 (Naufrage de transbordeur ....) needs authors listed (see source for those). It looks as if this is an official report that is hosted on Kassoumay but is not necessarily published by them - this needs to be made more clear in the citation. Same with ref 101 ("Commission d'enquete technique...")
  • Reference 20 is a deadlink. I was trying to check to see if the source was in French or English, because I suspect if it was published by the US State Department the title should be in English.
  • I haven't seen the Teranga source. If it is primarily written as a giant ad for Carabane (which may be the case considering it is published by Air Senegal), then it is likely not an appropriate source for Tourists are not as attracted to the island for its mangroves as for the coconut trees .
  • I'm not sure whether Kassoumay (a tourist site) is appropriate to use to source the fish/reptiles that can be found on the island.
  • Ref 39 is not correct. Scientific Linux is the name of the software used on the web server, not the web server itself. This site appears to actually be (http://iodeweb1.vliz.be/odin/) OceanDocs, a repository for scientific papers. The particular paper cited here mentions that it was a paper presented at a convention. The convention would likely be the publisher?
  • Instead of using the abbreviation PEPAM, can the publisher field state the full name of the agency?
  • ref 74 (French) Jacques Diatta (January 7, 2007). "Qui pour sauver Diogué-Nikine-Carabane?". Association d'Aide au Développement du Diembering. http://wikiwix.com/cache/?url=http://diembering-aadd.com/index.php?option=com_content%26task=view%26id=13%26Itemid=1. Retrieved November 19, 2009. ) is a deadlink

Karanacs (talk) 20:05, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm really sad to say this, especially considering how close this FAC appears to be to its completion, however my commitments outside Wikipedia have caught up with me and I will not be able to begin addressing the remaining concerns for at least another week. When I nominated this article back in November, I had hoped that I could finish addressing the reviewers' concerns over the holidays before things started up again in the new year. If the FAC can wait another week or two for me to do the remaining legwork, I would be grateful, however I understand that this FAC has already gone on for nearly two months. If the FAC cannot wait that long and the remaining concerns are sufficient to keep the article from being promoted, I will simply have to renominate the article at a future date. Thank you for all your hard work and constructive criticism on the article thus far. Neelix (talk) 17:21, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for keeping the FAC open until I was able to begin addressing these concerns. With respect to the concerns listed under the heading "A few more things on the existing sources":
  1. I have added the authors and publishers for ref 17 and ref 101.
  2. Ref 20 doesn't appear to be a deadlink to me. When I click on it, the webpage loads properly. Despite having been produced by the US State Department, the citation is correct; the title is in French.
  3. I haven't been successful in discovering any other sources which document the population of reptiles and fish located on or surrounding the island. Is the Kassoumay citation insufficient?
  4. I have switched the publisher for ref 39 to the name of the conference.
  5. I have unabbreviated PEPAM.
  6. Like ref 20, ref 74 doesn't appear to be a deadlink when I click on it. Is this possibly a browser problem?
I will try to address your other concerns throughout the rest of today. Neelix (talk) 17:50, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
With respect to the concerns listed under the heading "More questions/comments":
  1. I have added an author to the Sénégal et Gambie citation.
  2. I have added ISBNs to all of the citations for books which were published after 1966 (when ISBNs were first introduced).
  3. I'm not sure which citation you're referring to when you say "Entrepreneurs en Vedette". Would you mind providing the ref number?
  4. I've gone through the reference and bibliography sections, adding more citation information in places and making some corrections. I believe the citations are well-formatted now.
  5. I'm not sure how to mark the two doctoral theses as such. Should I simply append "- a doctoral thesis" to the citations?
There was also one concern I forgot to address in the section under the heading "A few more things on the existing sources": the Teranga source. I have ordered this article through my local library, however it will likely take some time to arrive. Until it does, if you are sufficiently concerned about the advertising nature of the article, the statement that Tourists are not as attracted to the island for its mangroves as for the coconut trees which line its beaches, as featured on many of Carabane's postcards can simply be removed from the article; this information is not especially important. I do, however, believe that the article is an appropriate source for the statement that Some tour guides falsely claim that this is Auguste Léopold Protet, no matter whether the article is entirely an advertisement or not. Neelix (talk) 19:34, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have reviewed the journal articles and book sources you have gathered about Carabane. Thank you for taking the time to do that. I have added information about Bertrand-Bocandé from Greater France to the article, and I have added information about French-Portuguese competition from Senegambia and the Atlantic Slave Trade to the article. I have looked over Identity Matters: Ethnic and Sectarian Conflict, but I'm not sure what to add to the article from it. The information it contains does not appear to be specific to Carabane and might be better suited to the Jola people article or the Casamance article. The question of whether Casamance is part of Senegal or not is already found on the article in a sense more specific to Carabane: the statement that the island no longer fits into any category of the administrative structure decreed by the Senegalese government. I think the article already has enough information about the Jola and the broader Casamance area and that having more would be tangential to the topic at hand. Nonetheless, if you strongly disagree with my assessment, I would be happy to include more information on either of these topics. The other books you mention are not fully accessible online, therefore I would have to order them through my local library in order to add information from them to the article. I am willing to do this, however it would take some time for me to receive these sources. Does the article require the additional contextualization that these sources might offer in order to attain featured article status? Neelix (talk) 23:08, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose – A straight translation from the French Wikipedia without reading the original sources should not be made a featured article on the English Wikipedia. Simple as that. A nominator should know what is in their sources, both for writing the article itself and for responding to questions about the content. That simply cannot happen when the nominator doesn't even understand the language the sources are in. We, therefore, are left guessing as to whether the sources have been well-represented, in content and tone. That just isn't good enough. All of the sources should be checked by someone who understands the languages used; preferably, the person would be an uninvolved third party. Apparently this is happening now, but I won't feel comfortable seeing this be represented as our best work until that process is complete. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 16:30, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am not certain that I understand your objection. You say that a "straight translation from the French Wikipedia without reading the original sources should not be made a featured article on the English Wikipedia," however all the original sources have been read by Ji-Elle, an editor of both the French and English Wikipedias. You also state that "the nominator doesn't even understand the language the sources are in." This is not true; I am well-versed in the French language, as my translation of this extensive article should demonstrate. All this discussion assumes that I have not engaged with the original sources; admittedly, I have not fully read all of them, but I have gone through most as most are available online. I have found no inconsistencies. We are not "left guessing as to whether the sources have been well-represented, in content and tone" because Ji-Elle can easily vouch for the accurate representation of all the sources, including those sources to which I do not have access. Neelix (talk) 16:57, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Can you get Ji-Elle to make a statement here? Not that I distrust you, but I would like to hear it from Ji-Elle him/herself that they can "vouch for the accurate representation of all the sources, including those sources to which [you] do not have access". Dabomb87 (talk) 03:08, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have contacted Ji-Elle, and she has responded below in the section entitled "News from France". Neelix (talk) 15:52, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The translation may be accurate, and it may reflect the sources, but it is far from idiomatic. One example from many: "Solar lighting operates on the wide roads even though there are no cars on the island to drive on them." --Malleus Fatuorum 03:49, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I do not understand your objection. What is wrong with the sentence you quote from the article? Neelix (talk) 03:54, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Try this one then: "Several brief interim governments succeeded after Vargas's suicide". What does "succeeded" mean to you? --Malleus Fatuorum 04:01, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll simply point out that the subject of the sentence I first objected to is "solar lighting", which doesn't "operate" on any roads, wide or narrow, and "them" appears to be referring back to the subject of the sentence, implying that there are no cars on the island able to drive over the solar lighting. --Malleus Fatuorum 04:11, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I apologize if I'm missing something obvious; I still don't understand. The quotation about Vargas's suicide does not appear in the article. Neelix (talk) 04:07, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You're absolutely right, my apologies. I was looking at two articles at once and got them confused. --Malleus Fatuorum 04:13, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think I understand a little better; the use of the word "them" is ambiguous and might be reworded to "these roads." I am less clear about the problem with the word "operates"; what do you mean by your statement that solar lighting "doesn't 'operate' on any roads"? Neelix (talk) 18:28, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Of course it does, but it sounds rather strange, and I can't imagine anyone ever saying it like that. More usual would be to say something like "Although there are no cars on the island to drive on them, the wide roads are illuminated by solar lighting". --Malleus Fatuorum 19:41, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have reworded the sentence in question on the article; please let me know if it meets with your approval. You began this discussion stating that this sentence is only one of many which need to be altered. I notice that you have since altered many sentences in the article yourself. Do any remain which you still deem lacking in clarity? Neelix (talk) 22:52, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To be perfectly honest Neelix, I'm teetering on the verge of striking my oppose. Not sure I'm yet ready to support ... but let me take another look through. It's an informative article that I enjoyed reading in any event. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:14, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Is this article using metric or imperial as its primary units of measurement? I'd have thought metric, but some sections are using imperial, whereas others use metric. Really ought to be consistent. --Malleus Fatuorum 15:12, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I just switched the only instance of imperial I could find to metric. Do you see others which remain unconverted? Neelix (talk) 15:51, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Bonjour tout le monde,

My English is poor, I admit. Nevertheless, I was able to appreciate the translation made by Neelix and I did read through this discussion page. Unfortunately I must have missed something, as I can't understand what is wrong with the sources, according to your standards...

Bien cordialement, Ji-Elle (talk) 14:38, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There's nothing wrong with the sources that I can see, it's just that not all of us are able to read French. --Malleus Fatuorum 14:40, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've left a note on Ji-Elle's talk page; if she happens to speak Spanish, I will try to explain better the concerns there. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:35, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. All of my earlier reservations about this article have been cheerfully dealt with thanks largely to the nominator's hard work and persistence. Deserves to be promoted now I think. --Malleus Fatuorum 15:59, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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