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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/CMLL World Light Heavyweight Championship/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 23:28, 16 July 2016 [1].

CMLL World Light Heavyweight Championship edit

Nominator(s):  MPJ-US  00:58, 11 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a Mexican Professional wrestling championship, promoted by the oldest still active wrestling promotion in the world (founded in 1933). It has recently been through a really good GA review and passed, it's also benefitted from a number of Feature List Candidate review for other CMLL championships where I have applied improvement suggestions across all championship articles. I believe this has all the characteristics of a Featured Article, hopefully you will agree.  MPJ-US  00:58, 11 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments – MPJ, I'm sorry that this hadn't attracted any reviewer attention before now. Wrestling articles at FAC have had trouble getting reviewers pretty much since I first started commenting here. I have no knowledge at all of lucha libre, but let me see if I can get things started.

  • First off, did we ever discuss at FLC whether the CMLL champion lists (List of CMLL World Light Heavyweight Champions in this case) should be split from the main articles? This isn't an overly long article, so someone will probably ask about that at some point. I can't remember it being brought up, but if it was that would be helpful for others to know. You'd probably remember that better than me anyway.
    • That is going back a while but I believe that there was a limit, I want to say 10 champions, before we should even consider creating a seperate list - and then only of the main article actually has enough content to not just be a short, subbish article. This being a GA I think it meets this criteria, MPJ-US  09:05, 14 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • General question: Is "Light Heavyweight" normally capitalized in this context (meaning when not part of the title's name) in lucha libre coverage? If not, you should decapitalize all instances in the article that aren't part of belt names. If so, feel free to ignore this comment.
  • "Because Lucha Libre puts more emphasis...". Our article doesn't capitalize the second word of "Lucha Libre", so why would it be capitalized here? While I'm here, the term could stand to be wikilinked. I'm not normally a fan of using many links, but it might be helpful to readers since it looks like this form of wrestling is unique when compared to the American version.
  • "La Mascara is the current CMLL World Light Heavyweight Champion in his first reign, who won it...". Since "who" refers to La Mascara, his name would optimally be right before the comma. How about using "The current CMLL World Light Heavyweight Champion in his first reign is La Mascara"?
  • Remove the hyphen from "over-all".
    • Fixed MPJ-US  09:05, 14 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • You left no space between "15th" and "overall", and the latter word has one too many "l"s. Needs a couple more tweaks. Giants2008 (Talk) 21:18, 14 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "History: "positioning the NWA title as the highest ranking title in the Light Heavyweight division and the Mexican National title positioned as the secondary championship." Reads a little awkwardly. Changing "and" to "with" would probably be enough to fix it.
  • You don't need to fully spell out the NWA twice in this section. The one in the second paragraph can be abbreviated.
  • "with The CMLL World Light Heavyweight Championship created to...". Don't think that "The" should be capitalized here.
  • Try not to start a sentence with a number, like in "8 days later Dr. Wagner, Jr. won the title back before returning to Mexico." In these situations, just spell out the number at the start of the sentence or reword it to move the number away from the beginning.
  • Again, "over all" should probably be one word.
  • Reigns: "Only two men have held the title more than once, both Dr. Wagner, Jr. and Atlantis have officially held the title two times." Minor, but the comma could stand to be a colon or semi-colon.
  • "due to an injury to the reigning champion or that champion stops working for the promotion". This could use "when" before "that".
  • The wrestler's name Rush is missing from "In late 2013 then light heavyweight champion".
    • Fixed MPJ-US  09:05, 14 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • You did fix it, but I just noticed that Rush and El Terrible both have unneeded repeat links. That should be handled as well. Giants2008 (Talk) 21:18, 14 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rules: "The official definition of the Light Heavyweight division in Mexico is from 92 kg and 97 kg." "and" should be "to".
    • Fixed MPJ-US  09:05, 14 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • "Now this needs "is" before "between". Not sure why that was removed, but it should definitely be put back. Giants2008 (Talk) 21:18, 14 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "However, in the 21st century the official definitions has at times been overlooked for certain champions." "definitions" probably shouldn't be plural here.
    • It's not just the defintion of the light heavyweight division but all the definition of all the divisions. Plural still inappropriate??
      • No, but in that case "has" should be "have", which is plural in nature here. Giants2008 (Talk) 21:18, 14 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "With a total of twelve CMLL promoted championships being labelled as "World" title". Last word should be plural.
  • 2013: "starting on January 22, 2013 and the finals held the following week." Add "were" before "held"?
  • Another "over all" here.
  • Is Footnote 1 referenced by where it appears in-text? I couldn't find a source directly in the note.
    • Yes it's right after the note in the text, I am not aware of a way to get a reference inside a footnote? MPJ-US  09:05, 14 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • The all caps should be taken out of "MEXICO" in references 2 and 8.
  • Date formatting in the references should be consistent. I see a couple of ISO dates, but most of them are fully spelled out. It will be less work to convert the ISO dates than the others, so I recommend that option. Giants2008 (Talk) 21:48, 12 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you @Giants2008: I appreciate Fthe input, and yes most FAC for pro wrestling often die on the vine due to lack of attention, does not help that I have been busy IRL and not done my share of FAC reviews. I am hoping to address this starting this weekend.  MPJ-US  09:05, 14 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • I believe i have addressed it all now.  MPJ-US  22:00, 14 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Giants2008: - Could you please check to make sure my updates are approriate? If so perhaps lend your support? Thanks in advance.  MPJ-US  16:44, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • I went and performed further copy-edits for you. In particular, I did a bunch of edits to make the article compliant with MOS:JR, the newest part of the Manual of Style that the FAC community doesn't seem to know much about yet. and removed some wordiness in places. Before considering a support, I'd like to see Starship's comment about the most significant CMLL championship fully addressed. It looks like you're close to finding a solution, and I encourage you to work with it until you find something the two of you can agree on. Giants2008 (Talk) 01:32, 2 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • Support – Now that Starship's issue has been resolved, I'll go ahead and support. It is a short article, but it is the kind of subject where I doubt there is too much more to say in sources that wouldn't be questioned here. Perhaps there is more in wrestling websites, but without knowing much about their reliability at this level I don't want to push the point. The nominator seems to have done a good job of sticking to print publications and the like, and I wouldn't want to see a step back in this regard. Giants2008 (Talk) 01:12, 8 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from starship.paint edit

  • Support after my review is concluded with issues addressed, this is a comprehensive article! starship.paint ~ KO 02:00, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
History
  • References 2-9 are books/print. Are there any e-book versions available via Google...?
    • I am not aware of any I have the actual books in print myself.  MPJ-US  02:46, 15 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • I helped you add URLs to those books I could find via Google Books.
  • Can I confirm that the first sentence with "1933" is supported by [4] or [5]? I would advise to cite references for these sentences.
    • Yes one covered the 1933 sentence. MPJ-US  02:46, 15 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's no mention of the Spanish name of the title in the body of the article. It should be referenced too, in the body.
  • @Starship.paint: - thank you for your input.  MPJ-US  02:46, 15 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Rey Escorpión defeated Volador Jr." This is the "finals" for the vacant championship, right? It should be stated so, then.
  • According to the list of reigns page, Rush gave up his Light title to get a title shot for the Heavyweight title, this can be mentioned with the appropriate reference.
Reigns
  • I just noticed that the Rush vacating title and Escorpion winning was mentioned both in the History and in the Reigns section. I think one mention is enough...
    • Well the history section is to cover Rush vacating, the reigns section is more about Escorpion winning  MPJ-US  19:41, 15 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Oftentimes a championship is vacated due to an injury to the reigning champion or when a champion stops working for the promotion" - this is a contestable claim requiring a source. You can change "oftentimes" to "sometimes", and source with (injury vacation: WWE's Bryan/Rollins) and (working vacation: AAA's Alberto El Patron).
    • Addressed and since it's a lucha title I went with two luch examples - Mistico II vacating the Welter title due to a motor cycle injury and CMLL vacating tag becaus Hijo del Santo stopped working for them.  MPJ-US  19:41, 15 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • Nice!
  • You say that there are fifteen reigns by fourteen wrestlers in this section and in the lede. Fifteen reigns does not include Aquarius but fourteen wrestlers does. If Tajiri's reign is not counted, there are only thirteen wrestlers. Please fix this inconsistency.
Rules
  • Looking at the reference, the "official definition" seems to be dated to 2001. I think that's worth a mention.
    • Not sure what you mean by that? mention that it was defined in 2001? the definition pre-dates that by at least 70 years with most division dating back to the early days of lucha libre. And yes it's 15 years old but they have not changed in 85ish years now so I don't believe that's a problem? MPJ-US  03:42, 15 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • Okay never mind about 2001. How about mentioning that the official definition comes from BOX Y LUCHA LIBRE PROFESIONAL DEL ESTADO DE MEXICO? starship.paint ~ KO 05:41, 15 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • I believe I addressed this by clarifying that this is the lucha libre commission defined weight limits, hence "official". Does that work?  MPJ-US  19:41, 15 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
        • Fine!
  • "With a total of twelve CMLL promoted championships being labelled as "World" titles" - this sentence, is it sourced? It's also a contestable claim requiring a source.
    • Well "contestable" may be a stretch IMO, the CMLL page lists 12 championships with the word "World" in the title. But that page does have a reference for each of the most recent champions, I can easily grab those 11 sources and put them on the page I suppose. MPJ-US  03:42, 15 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • Hmm. Since you said that, I Wiki-linked it for you. No need for the 11 sources. But the contestable part is actually the other part of the sentence "the promotional focus shifts from championship to championship over time with no single championship being promoted as the "main" championship of the promotion". Sorry, I wasn't clear. starship.paint ~ KO 05:36, 15 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
        • I see what you mean - that's a tough one. So the WWE title is the top title - but not because the WWE said so, but by it being the focal point of most main events, gets the most storyline focus etc. with CMLL there is not one single title that gets that kind of focus, heck some of them go ignored for months on end. Titles are generally a second tied underneath "Apuestas" (mask or hair matches) in CMLL's pecking order, the Apuestas often get the main events of the big shows - title matches are more to build to the Apuestas. I am just not sure how to source what CMLL's booking pattern has been in the last 83ish years.  MPJ-US  19:41, 15 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
          • How about writing Despite a total of twelve CMLL promoted championships being labelled as "World" titles, the most highly promoted matches tend to be Lucha de Apuestas matches? I based that from reading the main events of the Consejo Mundial de Lucha Libre Anniversary Shows...? starship.paint ~ KO 02:43, 16 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
            • How about the reworded sentence now??  MPJ-US  23:59, 17 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
              • @MPJ-DK: I like your addition. But I would ask that the promotional focus shifts from championship to championship over time with no single championship being consistently promoted as the "main" championship, instead be removed if the Mondo Lucha book does not support it. Does it? starship.paint ~ KO 07:21, 18 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
                • @Starship.paint: the Mondo Lucha book is a little vague on that part. I would really like the article to reflect that CMLL does not have "That One Big Championship" because that's the truth. Just trying to figure out how to source such a statement is the challenge right now. I have some various Year in Review magazine editions I won on eBay years back, I may go through those to see if I can source that the main event title spot does not always go to the Heavyweight title.  MPJ-US  23:29, 18 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
                  • It's already quite established that the main event match spot does not always go to the Heavyweight title. Looking at the Anniversary Shows easily establishes that. However, that does not prevent the Heavyweight title from still being the main championship defended. Usually, placing on the card determines importance. If you can find that in some years, the main event or semi-main event / second last match had other championship matches than the Heavyweight, then it should be fine. Of course, you need a source for this starship.paint ~ KO 23:55, 18 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
                  • @MPJ-DK: see this comment. starship.paint ~ KO 01:57, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
                  • @MPJ-DK: any update? starship.paint ~ KO 03:50, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Out dent) @Starship.paint: - So I have gone back through CMLL's major show history, I stopped at 2013 when I did not find a heavyweight title match but did find three other singles title matches listed. I am trying to find out when the last title defense was, so I can reference that as part of the "it's not the main title" section. I did not think it would take this long.  MPJ-US  16:44, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • Do the additional details work?  MPJ-US  16:59, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • @MPJ-DK: - yes, yes, that is great research and it largely works. The only (minor) concern that I have is that when you write Since 2013 and The last time a ... these kinds of statistics have to be constantly updated, you have to be aware of the results of the CMLL major shows and update this article in the event the statistics change. Personally I would prefer to change Since 2013 to From January 2013 to May 2016, and when 2017 rolls around you can change it to From 2013 to 2016 so that there is less chance for inaccurate statements. What do you think? starship.paint ~ KO 00:59, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • @MPJ-DK: - I'm really close to stamping my support ... so address this :D starship.paint ~ KO 13:53, 2 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
        • @Giants2008 and Starship.paint: - Sorry I have been sick for the last couple of days and did not get around to addressing this. I updated the time period to be more specific. Does that work?  MPJ-US  13:46, 6 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Good work on finding the other promotions where the title was defended.
Tournaments
  • It would be helpful to insert a reference for "from September 15 to October 26, 1991". That's all for my comments today! starship.paint ~ KO 03:22, 15 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Starship.paint: - I believe I have fixed your concerns or answred your questions.  MPJ-US  19:41, 15 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Lede
  • Because lucha libre puts more emphasis on the lower weight classes, this division is considered more important than the heavyweight division, which is considered the most important championship by most promotions outside of Mexico. - I don't recall seeing this in the body. This needs to be sourced too..
  • I did a copyedit for the whole article.
Further note for Reigns section
  • Shouldn't La Mascara be the shortest reigning champion and not Jerry Estrada?starship.paint ~ KO 07:22, 18 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Good call on La Mascara, I added that and stated the date he would surpass Jerry Estrada if he remains champion - that way it's clear when the article would need to be updated.  MPJ-US  00:47, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • That's great. I like it!

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. - Dank (push to talk)

  • "[5][4]": Picky, I know, but we're generally looking for [4][5] unless there's a good reason not to do that.
  • Support on prose per my standard disclaimer. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 21:25, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for your support, I have also addressed the [5][4] source issue. MPJ-US  23:54, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Notes -- Did I miss image and source reviews? Also, it seems to have been a long time since your last FA, MPJ, so I'd like to see a spotcheck of sources for accuracy and avoidance of close paraphrasing. A request for all these can be made at the top of WT:FAC. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:13, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • I did not realize the separate reqwuest space for that, thank you @Ian Rose:. It has been a while since I had one pass for FA - and perhaps the fact that I did not realize there was a request space maybe why my last two FACs has less participation than I had hoped.  MPJ-US  14:27, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Image Review (by Saskoiler)

  • Copyright status
    • There are three images, all with acceptable status. One is own work (public domain), and the other two are both from Flickr with CC licenses for attribution-sharealike.
    • Both Flickr images are attributed to author "Carlos Amapol", but Flickr suggests "Carlos Adampol Galindo". I think this should be fixed, ideally including a link to the author's Flickr page too. (Re: Best practices for attribution)
  • Captions
    • "Dr. Wagner Jr., who lost the championship in Japan without it being sanctioned by CMLL." → This is not a sentence, and should therefore not end with a period (re: WP:CAPFRAG).
    • Other two are good.

-- Saskoiler (talk) 06:39, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you for your review @Saskoiler: I believe I have addressed all issues?
Yes. All looks good now. - Saskoiler (talk) 22:37, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comments from Victoriaearle edit

Hi Ian I tried to do some spotchecks and ran into a little trouble.

  • First: Ref number 2 (Royal Duncan and Gary Will (2000). "Mexico: CMLL EMLL Light Heavyweight Title". Wrestling Title Histories. Archeus Communications. p. 395. ISBN 0-9698161-5-4.) and ref number 8 are the same book (Royal Duncan and Gary Will (2000). "Mexico: EMLL CMLL". Wrestling Title Histories. Archeus Communications. pp. 395–410. ISBN 0-9698161-5-4.), so that should be fixed. This book isn't available online - not even in snippet view, so it can't be checked. (I just noticed that ref 5 is also the same book)
  • I have the actual book, I won it on eBay some years ago. So page 395 is the listing for the CMLL World Lightweight Championship specifically and used to source statements about the Light Heavyweight title specifically. Pages 395-410 lists all championships brande as "CMLL World" (Heavy, Light Heavy, Middle, Welter etc.) and it used to source a statement that applies to all the championships. And yes ref 5 is from the book too, different pages. I tried to be as specific as possible with the page indicators here instead of having one more generic reference that says "pages 390-391, 395-410". MPJ-US  03:00, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref number 7 (Madigan, Dan (2007). "Okay ... what is Lucha Libre?". Mondo Lucha A Go-Go: the bizarre & honorable world of wild Mexican wrestling. HarperColins Publisher. pp. 29–40 and 114–118. ISBN 978-0-06-085583-3.) is linked and available online, but I can't find any of the information its verifying. Certainly there isn't a close paraphrasing issue, but I am a little concerned that a variety of search terms doesn't bring me even close. But g-books being what they are, perhaps someone else should take a look. Or perhaps I've lost my touch.
  • I have the book so I'll get it out and see what exactly in there is used to support the statements in [7]. MPJ-US  03:00, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • My book is still packed away after we moved so it's not readily available. I tried to check the "Google books" site, but it does not actually cover the chapter. It skips from page "37 to 272", but that's not the page labeled as "37" since the foreword is not numbered. I don't think the online version includes either of the chapters I cited, I think the only options is that I would have to get the book out to confirm content for you.  MPJ-US  03:13, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Most of the other sources are in Spanish, so we'd need a Spanish speaker to take a look. I can't sign off on this, unfortunately. Also I noticed some of the sources need work, i.e I'd think Howstuffworks should be in italics (is this even reliable?), and HarperCollins usually has two "L"s. Victoria (tk) 01:32, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fixed the typo in the name and the italics, will look into the "How stuff works" source - to be honest I took that off other wrestling articles that used it, so I am not sure of the reliability. For the Spanish language sources, my Spanish is fair when it comes to reading it but google translate or built in browser translators usually handle the Spanish language web pages pretty well.  MPJ-US  03:00, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, thanks for the reply. I think you'll need a full source review and generally the spot checks aren't done by the nominator, that's why I said we need a Spanish speaker. Pinging Ian Rose again so he's aware. I've done all I can here. Victoria (tk) 03:14, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just it be clear, I did not offer to do the spot checks, I offered a way for a non-Spanish speaker to actually check spanish language sources, just trying to help the process along.  MPJ-US  12:59, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Spot check edit

  • @HHH Pedrigree: - if I remember correctly Spanish is your first language? Could you help MPJ-DK out on the spotcheck of sources for accuracy and avoidance of close paraphrasing? starship.paint ~ KO 12:38, 11 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes. I'm from Spain. What do you neeed? --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 13:22, 11 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • @HHH Pedrigree: - thank you. Could you check the online Spanish sources to make sure that (1) what is written on Wikipedia is correct reporting of what the source said (is it exactitud??) and (2) no plagiarism/plagio happened (no using of the exact same words if possible) starship.paint ~ KO 00:17, 12 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
        • OK. I'll take a look. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 13:45, 12 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
          • Hi. I saw the spanish sources (11, 12, 13, 14, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 22, 24 and 25). All of them are right. Son exactas and there's no plagio.--HHH Pedrigree (talk) 16:32, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • @MPJ-DK: - I checked the other non-Spanish online sources as HHH Pedrigree checked the above. For reference 23, you might want to add another source (an official one) to prove Fantastica Mania is an NJPW event. For reference 7, are you sure the relevant pages in the ebook are 13 to 29? I can read 13 to 29 online but I don't see the EMLL information. I see a quote in the book is emll was a member of the nwa from 1952 to 1986, and Lutteroth controlled the Alliance world light heavyweight, middleweight... but I cannot see what page it is from other than it being after page 88. The rest that I could access are fine. starship.paint ~ KO 05:16, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Starship.paint: I will add the NJPW source, better to be 100% covered I agree. So 7 is to source that EMLL had control of the NWA World Light Heavyweight Championship, the other source sources that in 1958 the Mexican National Light Heavyweight Championship became the secondary title when EMLL gained control of the championship - so between the two I believe it's covering the preceeding statement?  MPJ-DK  10:01, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • @MPJ-DK: - the issue is that the pages 13 to 29, as stated in the Wikipedia reference listing, does not state "EMLL had control of the NWA World Light Heavyweight Championship". The correct page number needs to be updated. Or, at least remove the wrong page numbers. starship.paint ~ KO 11:45, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
        • Ah shoot I misread what you said. Unfortunatly my book is packed away so I cannot find the proper page, I'll find a different source to cover it.  MPJ-DK  12:25, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
        • @Starship.paint: - quick search reveals page 305 supports the NWA memebership from 1952 to 1988. I update the page indicator and added a more specific link that will show page 305 of the book.  MPJ-DK  12:31, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
          • @MPJ-DK and Ian Rose: - excellent, this is settled - I believe the spot checks are done now by me and HHH Pedrigree, and Saskoiler checked the images. starship.paint ~ KO 12:57, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Closing comment -- I'm going to promote this but a couple of things you could look at afterwards:

  • I noticed at least one case of figures less than ten in numeral form, e.g. "8-day" -- usually expect those to be spelt out.
  • You have some duplicate links so pls check if those are really necessary/appropriate -- you can install this script to highlight them.

Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:28, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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