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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/CMLL World Heavyweight Championship/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 14:08, 4 March 2017 [1].

CMLL World Heavyweight Championship edit

Nominator(s):  MPJ-DK  15:31, 2 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a Mexican professional wrestling championship, promoted by the oldest professional wrestling promotion in the world. It was an FAC in April 2016 but unfortunately died on the vine due to lack of input from reviewers. I have created a lot of Good or Featured content on Wikipedia and I am always willing to listed to suggestions and made adjustments to help improve the quality of articles on Wikipedia.  MPJ-DK  15:31, 2 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by JDC808 edit

Resolved

I've done copy-editing throughout the article. There was a bit more than what I expected for an FAC and I feel that this should have been taken through a copy-editing process before nomination.

  • I noticed your work and I am grateful for it as well, there was more than I was aware of for sure and I apologize. Question - is it normal to spell out all "15th" etc.? I followed the convention of anything under 10 is spelled out but left the rest as numbers.  MPJ-DK  00:36, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • It depends on what style guide you go by. If you prefer the numbers above 10 to be written as numbers, you can change those back if you want. --JDC808 ♫ 00:52, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      • Nah I'm good with the change, I was just wondering if it was one of the things to put on my personal "checklist" to always spell them out.  MPJ-DK  02:23, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Anyways, I'm mainly familiar with WWE's championship articles, so I have a question as WWE only recognizes title changes, does CMLL also recognize title defenses in their titles' histories?

  • Well with CMLL it's inconsistent - TV announcers will often mention that it's the "fourth defense" etc. but it's hardly ever referred to in writing. Since championship matches are much rarer in CMLL it is totally possible to provide a list of defenses, I am just not sure when to included them and when not to, I went with "not" in this case.  MPJ-DK  00:36, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • I was mainly asking because in some spots of the article, defenses were noted (e.g., Último Guerrero is officially credited with 20 successful title defenses by CMLL,..."). --JDC808 ♫ 00:52, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      • So for Guerrero they specifically mentioned 20 and that it was a record, a comment I stumbled and figured it would make an interestig addition to the reigns section. Since I had a "most defenses" I researched the "least" defenses too and noted the oddities to kinda cover all bases. I think it makes for good info in the article, but I probably would not want to put it in list form.  MPJ-DK  02:23, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

For the tournaments, does their happen to be specific dates (and specific shows) for when each round occurred? --JDC808 ♫ 02:20, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • I will look around, the second tournament definitely needs dates as the matches were spread out over several shows and I can find show names etc. MPJ-DK  00:36, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • I added some information on the 1992 tournament, that one had the least amount of detail that has now been added. I think the other two have all the information I know of.  MPJ-DK  03:10, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for all your input so far JDC808, and the help with the copyediting, definitly helping make this a stronger article.  MPJ-DK  00:36, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Meant to come back to this earlier today (technically yesterday in my time zone). I'm gonna look over the article more tomorrow (or rather later today). Also, if you have some free time, I also have an FAC up. It's of the 2013 video game God of War: Ascension. --JDC808 ♫ 05:28, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

One comment before I'm off for the night. I happened to look at the article history and noticed this edit you made. I had added "respectively" because the way it was worded sounded like that was the order. I'll have a follow up on this when I return later. --JDC808 ♫ 05:37, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Gonna breakdown the article section by section:

Lead

Possible way to rewrite the first paragraph:

  1. The CMLL World Heavyweight Championship (Spanish: Campeonato Mundial de Peso Completo del CMLL) is a professional wrestling world heavyweight championship that was established in 1991. Promoted by Consejo Mundial de Lucha Libre (CMLL), the promotion introduced the championship to signal their independence from the National Wrestling Alliance (NWA). As part of the move away from the NWA, CMLL established a number of other championships also designated as "world championships" for a variety of divisions, such as the [link one or two of the others here]. The World Heavyweight Championship was the first CMLL title to be created, and the inaugural champion was Konnan el Bárbaro, who won the title by defeating Cien Caras in the finals of a tournament on June 9, 1991. The current champion is Máximo Sexy, who is in his [#] reign. He is the fifteenth person to hold the championship and the eighteenth overall champion.
  • The italicized part could be omitted as the body of the article covers who Konnan defeated. I'll leave that decision to you.
    • True it's a detail better saved for the detailed section, I will remove.  MPJ-DK  00:01, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The last sentence is not entirely necessary for the lead (as it is covered in Reigns). Again, I'll leave that decision to you.
    • Well technially everything in the lead should be covered in main body ;-) so in this case I disagree.  MPJ-DK  00:01, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      • I guess I should have said let the Reigns section go into this detail (similar to the above point). To me, it kinda seemed trivial for the lead. But it's fine if you wanna keep it. --JDC808 ♫ 00:09, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The second paragraph is fine, aside from me linking "Mexican wrestling". --JDC808 ♫ 23:57, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Did a little copy-editing on the lead, as seen here with the edit summary.

Something else I meant to ask sooner on, is there a picture of the actual championship? I think that would be better for the infobox picture, and the picture of the current champion can go in the Reigns section. --JDC808 ♫ 02:16, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • I have not found one with a proper licese unfortunately.  MPJ-DK  23:34, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Take this, download it, and then upload it to Wikipedia with the proper rationale. It's from cmll.com. --JDC808 ♫ 00:33, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      • Added, I used the same basic rational as several WWE championship belt images. Hopefully it does not get deleted. Thank you for the generic image, that's a great find.  MPJ-DK  01:56, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
History

Did CMLL leave the NWA in 1991 or in the late-1980s? In the lead, I was under the impression that they left the NWA in 1991 with the creation of this championship. However, in the History section, it says that the EMLL left the NWA in the late-1980s and became CMLL.

  • Left in late 1980s, renamed to CMLL in 1991 where they introduced the championship.  MPJ-DK  23:34, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Okay....so they left the NWA in the late-1980s. Did they still have a working relationship with them until 1991, or did they just not have a championship for a few years until they introduced this title? --JDC808 ♫ 00:33, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      • Alright so this gets a little convoluted here. They left the NWA, but still used the NWA World Light Heavyweight Championship, NWA World Middleweight Championship and the NWA World Welterweight Championship as well as a slew of "Mexican National" championships, so they had PLENTY of championships. In 1991 they rebranded to make it obvious they were not with the NWA any more - fans were confused since they promoted three NWA championships etc. So they created a number of "CMLL World" titles and downplayed the NWA ones (but still promoted them). Of course they actually still promote three NWA labelled championships today, almost 30 years after leaving - CMLL, they're that weird relative that you love despite of them being weird (or maybe because they are).  MPJ-DK  15:51, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
        • Okay, that helps in clarifying this. I made these two edits, 1 and 2, for clarification. This article doesn't need to get into the detail of CMLL still promoting three of NWA's titles. --JDC808 ♫ 21:22, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"On April 2, 2009, Último Guerrero successfully defended the title against Rey Mendoza Jr. on an independent wrestling promotion show in Gomez Palacio, marking the first time the CMLL World title was defended on a non-CMLL promoted show."

  • Was this the first time that a CMLL World Championship was defended on a non-CMLL show, or the first time that the Heavyweight Championship was defended on a non-CMLL show? If it is the former, that sentence should be reworded as "marking the first time that a CMLL World title....."; if it was the latter, then change "CMLL World title" to "Heavyweight Championship" or "Heavyweight title". I ask this because there are other CMLL World titles, and I don't know if any of those had been defended on a non-CMLL show before the Heavyweight.
  • I am not sure if others were defended prior, the source spoke only of the cmll heavy. I left it at that to not goo into OR territory.  MPJ-DK  23:34, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • In that case, reword it to Heavyweight, because that would still be correct. --JDC808 ♫ 00:23, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Rules

State what Garza's weight division was when he won the championship. It can be stated as "The Heavyweight Championship was no exception as several champions were under the weight limit, for example, Héctor Garza, who is classified as a [weight division and link it]." --JDC808 ♫ 02:51, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • I will get that added.  MPJ-DK  23:34, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • I added in that he would be in the "Junior Light Heavyweight" at his weight and threw in a source for Garza's billed weight as well to make sure it's got all bases covered.  MPJ-DK  02:10, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
1991 tournament

This is the follow up from earlier that I had mentioned. To avoid ambiguity, for the first two battle royals, I would suggest only mentioning those who were eliminated. Before doing that, however, how were there multiple winners for the battle royals? For example, the first one. Was it an 8-man battle royal and the match ended when only four wrestlers were left in the ring? --JDC808 ♫ 03:21, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • It ended with four people still in the ring. And I will look at the wording to tighten it up.  MPJ-DK  23:34, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, this could be reworded to something like:

"The first round of the tournament saw two eight-man battle royals, with each ending when four wrestlers were left in the ring. This was used to cut the field in half with the remaining wrestlers from each match advancing to the next round. The first battle royal featured Konnan, Rayo de Jalisco Jr., Black Magic, and Mascara Ano 2000 advancing, while Brazo de Plata, Vampiro Canadiense, Universo 2000, and El Egipcio were eliminated. The second battle royal saw Nitron, Pierroth Jr., Pirata Morgan, and Cien Caras progress to the next round, with Fabulous Blondie, Gran Markus Jr., Máscara Sagrada, and El Egipcio being eliminated. The second round saw another pair of battle royals, this time with four men in each and ending when two wrestlers were left in the ring. This narrowed down the tournament to the final four wrestlers, who faced off in traditional semifinals matches."

  • "finals" can be omitted as it is shown in the bracket, and this paragraph shows how they got to the semifinals in the bracket.
  • Also, just noticed something, how was El Egipcio in both battle royals? --JDC808 ♫ 00:23, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Ah if you recall I called CMLL "weird" earlier? Yeah this is one of those cases, from all sources I have seen on the tournament they had Egipico in both blocks - Not sure why they did that other than some sort of massivly disorganized planning snafu.  MPJ-DK  15:51, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      • Did not even read my own note that's in the article - Apparently he was a last minute replacement for someone who did not show up.  MPJ-DK  15:55, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      • I am also at fault for not looking at the note lol I had copy-pasted the paragraph and did reworking here so I didn't look at the note as I was concerned with how the paragraph was worded. The wording above (with that note) should suffice. --JDC808 ♫ 21:22, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I believe I have addressed the last couple of concerns you raised JDC808. Once again thank you for your contributions, it's a stronger article now.  MPJ-DK  02:10, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support: This has been the most extensive FAC review I've done (not saying that's a bad thing; usually an extensive review is done by the time I get to an FAC). I read over the article again and I feel comfortable in giving my support for this FAC. --JDC808 ♫ 20:53, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note: I did not do a source review. I will let someone else take care of that. I did glance over the ref list and the sources appear to be okay (I do like that there are a good number of print sources). Check the format on the sources and make sure that they all match (for example, ref 28 is "Cagematch.net" where the others from that site are "CageMatch"). --JDC808 ♫ 20:53, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support on prose per my standard disclaimer. These are my edits. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. - Dank (push to talk) 19:13, 11 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Mike Christie edit

I'm copyediting as I go; please revert if I screw anything up.

  • "...established in 1991 and promoted by Consejo Mundial de Lucha Libre (CMLL). The promotion introduced the championship to signal their independence from the National Wrestling Alliance (NWA)...": the use of "The promotion" here surprised me; "their independence" seems to mean "the promotion's independence". After checking a couple of links I realized that in pro wrestling a promotion is a company, not a marketing initiative, but this isn't going to be clear to readers new to the subject. At a minimum, link "promotion" to professional wrestling promotion, but I think it would be better to join the two sentences: "...established in 1991 and promoted by Consejo Mundial de Lucha Libre (CMLL), who introduced the championship to signal their independence from the National Wrestling Alliance (NWA)..."
  • Done, thanks for catching that one, to me "Promotion" is clear, but that's also because I'm a lifelong fan.
  • Suggest linking "scripted ending" to kayfabe in the lead.
  • Done
  • "EMLL left the NWA to avoid their politics": a bit vague; can you be more specific? Do you mean internal politicking, or something to do with national politics?
  • Internal NWA politics, I will try to clarify when I find a source to support the clarification.
  • "making him one of only two champions without a single successful title defense": later in the article you say "Three champions never had a successful title defense" -- can you explain?
  • The "two" is a mistake, or more likely it's outdated information since it was written prior to Garza leaving CMLL making him the third champion without a defense, I updated it to "three"

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:19, 17 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you for your input, I appreciate it.  MPJ-DK  12:48, 17 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support. The remaining point, about NWA politics, can be addressed when you find a source, and isn't worth holding up the FAC for. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:00, 17 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment: Have I missed an image or source review? If not, these can be requested at the top of WT:FAC. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:13, 17 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • You did not miss it, I had not put the request in yet, just added it now. Last review kinda petered out so I did not want to put it on the list until I had some feedback going out of respect for people's time. Thank you for the reminder.  MPJ-DK  22:47, 17 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image review - licensing and sources of the images are fine, but this image[2] does not list the actual source in the description, only the Commons file it was cropped from. FunkMonk (talk) 13:28, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • FunkMonk thank you for the review. I have removed the Norman Smiley image from the article.  MPJ-DK  23:03, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It can be kept, it just needs a link to the Flickr page on Commons. FunkMonk (talk) 08:55, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I updated the license to refer to the same link as the original image. The link is dead and I cannot find it on Archive.org either - is that still acceptable FunkMonk? I am going to hold of on adding the pic back until the licensing is 100% okay.  MPJ-DK  11:42, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we have a reason to doubt it was once on that site. But of course, if some archived version could be found and linked to, it would be nice. FunkMonk (talk) 13:07, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Source review:
  • Fn 3 - Why is this written/cited in the lead but not in the article body?
  • Fn 5 - This doesn't provide enough information for me to know what Lucha 2000 is. Is it a magazine? A newspaper? What is the publisher, ISSN, etc.
  • It is a magazine, I will dig it out of whatever box I put it in when I moved and find that information. MPJ-DK  21:44, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I got the information on this one take care of
  • Fn 6 - I don't understand the what the information in parens is supposed to be. Is that part of the chapter name? What page numbers?
  • I was trying to illustrate how the book is broken down into sections with chapters, kinda link the wiki headers and sub headers. The section is called "United States: 19th Century & widely defended titles – NWA, WWF, AWA, IW, ECW, NWA" and the chapter is named "National Wrestling Alliance World Heavyweight Title". Would it be okay to just go with the chapter name? And I'll find the page number and add it in.  MPJ-DK  21:44, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fn 12 - Seems to be missing information about the work/publisher.
  • Several citations to SuperLuchas are inconsistent. In one place you call it "SuperLuchas Magazine" and in other places just "SuperLuchas". Is it all the same thing? Also is this the same publication I've seen referred to on the Spanish Wikipedia as Súper Luchas? Why is it written differently there? Also need information on the publisher.
  • That is a heck of a good catch on the "Súper Luchas" name, I have been writing it as one word out of habit I guess, it has been fixed. The logo on the website does not have the accent, but looking at the magazines it does have the accent mark in the logo so I have updated source information to match. And I did not even realize we had a Spanish language article on it, Interesting. I will dig out a magazine and get the publisher information. MPJ-DK  21:44, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I believe I have added all necessary information. It took me a bit to figure out the ISSN since it was not printed on the inside of the magazine with the rest of the information, had to figure out how to read it from the barcode on the cover.  MPJ-DK  22:34, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Publishers and ISSNs missing for other web sites and magazines. --Laser brain (talk) 17:32, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Laser_brain thank you for your thorough source review, I will have to track some of that information down to add it to the article.  MPJ-DK  21:44, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I believe I have addressed all the source items?? Please let me know if there are other sources that need more detail.  MPJ-DK  23:03, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think we can afford to close this now, if there any further details required I think they can be discussed/finalised via the article talk page. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:07, 4 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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