Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Brougham Castle/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 21:15, 25 April 2010 [1].

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Brougham Castle

Brougham Castle (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Nominator(s): Nev1 (talk) 20:04, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

• Featured article candidates/Brougham Castle/archive1

Brougham Castle is a little known site in North West England but had an important role in the Scottish Wars and was used as a fortification into the 17th century (sort of). The article is comprehensive, dealing with the history, which is set in the context of what was going on in the region, and the castle's architecture. It relies heavily on Summerson, Trueman & Harrison's 1998 volume as it is the most comprehensive source on the subject, although some details are fleshed out with other books. The history is patchy in places – for instance the article says little on the castle's capture in 1388 – but this reflects the sporadic nature of the sources, which are not always detailed. Hopefully the article is an interesting read, and thanks in advance to anyone who takes time to read the article. Nev1 (talk) 20:04, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

• Comment. No dab links or dead external links. Ucucha 20:30, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Comments

• I won't follow everything here because I'm relatively new to castles and fortifications and MILHIST and I'm not great with British English articles, so forgive me if I ask some stupid questions. I'll start with: what's a "historic building"? A building that's been around for a while? Or is it an official designation? - Dank (push to talk) 23:31, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

It's not a technical designation as such. I suppose the meaning is that it's an old building, except trying not to say something as simplistic as that. I've changed it to "medieval building" which should be less ambiguous. Nev1 (talk) 23:42, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

More specific, and also more in line with other FA castle articles, I like it. I'll be gone for a few hours btw. How would you feel about moving the "scheduled monument" info up a bit, say into the introduction? - Dank (push to talk) 23:48, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

A good suggestion, and I've also moved the short sentence on the castle being open to the public to the first paragraph of the lead. The main details of what a Scheduled Monument is is still in the main body of the article. Nev1 (talk) 23:52, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

• Is a "timber bank" something like a berm made of timber and probably earth, sod or rocks? - Dank (push to talk) 01:33, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
  • Also, it says "earthen bank" below, so I'm confused. - Dank (push to talk) 02:25, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
    • It should have been "earthen bank" rather than timber, so I've corrected it. Nev1 (talk) 13:51, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
• "The importance of Brougham and Roger Clifford was such that in 1300 he hosted Edward I at the castle.": does the source give any additional information on what the king thought of Clifford or the castle? - Dank (push to talk) 01:46, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
  • Unfortunately not, there's little information on the visit. Nev1 (talk) 13:51, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
• I apologize for all the fiddling with the introduction ... reviewers are looking for a certain "tightness" there. It's less important to say things a certain way in the rest of the text. So far, it's a charming article. - Dank (push to talk) 02:04, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
  • The changes look good. Nev1 (talk) 13:51, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
• Okay I hope that's a good start, I'll come back to this later. - Dank (push to talk) 02:30, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
• Followup: ship reviews are taking all the time I have, I don't think I'll have a chance to get back to this one. Best of luck. - Dank (push to talk) 01:21, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Don't worry about it, your edits helped polish the article a bit. Nev1 (talk) 12:57, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Support This is an interesting article, but there are still a lot of issues. Who is Rovert? You had the estate remaining with a ward, but you mean in wardship, or with a warden (the ward would be the child). When was the end of Roman rule in Cumbria? I've done some minor tweaks, but became so confused that I stopped. Auntieruth55 (talk) 16:43, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Rovert was a typo (meant to be Robert). I've clarified the bit about the end of Roman rule; it was brief because it was only sketching the background. Could you be a bit more specific with what confused you? I know that the changing of hands through minorities sometimes confused me, and this may have come through in the article. Nev1 (talk) 16:50, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Robert died in 1228 (or 1227, according to the article on him). His son John was a minor. John died in 1246, before he reached his majority, but he had a son... Robert...who was also a minor...came of age in 1257. He rebelled in 1264, and lost the estate, which was restored to his daughters, only one of which married (Isabelle married a Clifford.) If Robert died in 1228, John must have reached his majority by 1246, in order to have produced a son who was of legal age by 1257.  ? Auntieruth55 (talk) 21:19, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

The article didn't state when Roger died, which was a mistake as it implied it was 1246. He was dead by 1241, so maybe he would have been old enough by 1246, although his date of birth does not appear to be known. Hopefully that bit is a little clearer now [2]. Nev1 (talk) 13:17, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

I still don't follow the descent of the castle from Roger to Robert etc., but I suppose it doesn't matter. The onset of the Civil War meant... is misleading. The Civil War didn't mean the castle would be garrisoned. The onset of the CW and the garrisoning happened more or less concurrently, but the first did not necessarily cause the second. As you've said many times, the castle was not strategic by then. Perhaps With the onset of the Civil War, Brougham was garrisoned....

I did some minor ce, feel free to revert if I changed meanings. In many cases it was saying something simple with a lot of words. One thing I did not change: is treachery an executable offense? Or do you mean treason? Auntieruth55 (talk) 21:00, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Treason is the better phrasing, so I've changed it. I reverted your edit regarding the Civil War as "At the onset of the English Civil War, Brougham Castle was garrisoned" implies that the castle was immediately taken over by the military. But you raise a good point, so as a compromise (and because it's not certain when the castle was garrisoned) I've changed the phrasing to "The English Civil War broke out in 1641. Brougham was one of several castles in the generally Royalist Cumberland and Westmorland that were garrisoned by Cavalier forces". I'll try to reduce the info on the inheritance from Robert to Roger (the amount of detail may be part of the problem). Nev1 (talk) 21:14, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

I think the priors were surplus to requirement, so I've removed them. It's simpler just to generalise the different carers as "wardens". Nev1 (talk) 21:21, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

• Sitting on the fence Support. No reason to oppose, but lots of minor niggles:

• A trivial but obvious one; how big is it? There are dimensions for the moat, but not for the castle itself, only a height;
• "When Anglians arrived in the area in the 7th century they named it…"; how reliable is the source for that, and was it actually colonised or are we just talking about trading parties? It's certainly an Anglo-Saxon name, but Cumbria was a part of (Brythonic speaking) Strathclyde and Rheded, not Anglic Northumbria in this period; did it actually have an Anglo-Saxon name that early on?
• In my experience, every damn hill in Cumbria has a dubious Ye Olde Historice Legende; given the proximity to Pendragon Castle, does this one have any? If so, they probably ought to be mentioned even if only to refute them;
• Aside from the earthworks, do any parts of the Roman building survive?
• "[Scots] raiding the west, reaching as far as Brough" will mean nothing to most readers, whom it's safe to assume won't know if Brough is the first town over the border or halfway to the Isle of Wight; I think it needs a "foo miles" or "bar days' ride" there;
• Is "was accused of forcing coins in the castle" a typo for "forging", or does "forcing" mean something specific? If the latter it needs to be explained as I've no clue;
• "When the north of England rose up in the Pilgrimage of Grace in 1536, Henry was one of those targeted by the rebels. He confronted the rebel leaders at Kirkby Stephen in February 1537, and after his defeat he retreated to Brougham Castle." seems problematic to me. AFAIK the Pilgrimage of Grace was confined to Yorkshire (or sometimes Lincolnshire, depending on how it's defined) and never reached the other side of the Pennines; the rebellion early 1537 in Cumbria and Westmorland was Bigod's Rebellion;
• You say the Cliffords were a recusant family during the Rising of the North; were they still recusant in the 1600s? If so, that definitely warrants a mention, especially given that James stayed with them;
• Not a deal-breaker, but given its proximity—and historical significance—Ninekirks probably ought at least to be mentioned, even if it's just a "See also".

• Nothing major, all just little niggles. – iridescent 17:19, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

• I've added some dimensions for the exterior of the castle.
• What Summerson actually says is "[Brougham] probably remained [a Christian community] as the Anglians of Northumberland occupied Westmorland - given an enduring name by the incomers, for who it was the land of the people west of the moors during the seventh century. These new arrivals, impressed by its Roman remains, also gave its present name to Brougham, meaning the village by the fort". It's a bit ambiguous, so I've removed the bit about the 7th century.
• I think a legend or ghost story spices up this kind of article a bit, but sadly nothing of the sort has turned up for Brougham.
• The only remains of the fort are below ground, and it was probably robbed out to help build the castle. There's been a survey of the earthworks, but it seems that not much is known about the buildings.
• Good point about Brough, I've clarified how far away it is.
• Typo fixed.
• It seems that the North East was worse, but Summerson (who wrote the history section of the book on the castle) does call the rising in 1536 the Pilgrimage of Grace. Bigod is not mentioned at all. The leaders were seeking refuge in Kirkby Stephen probably after their defeat in Yorkshire, although Summerson doesn't say that explicitly.
• Part of the reason for the Clifford's support of the Tudors despite being Catholic was their earlier; Summerson is silent on the issue of the family's later loyalties regarding the issue of Catholicism, but it was probably complicated by the contested ownership of the family estates between the dowager countesses and the Earl of Cumberland.
• Good point, I've added Ninekirks to the see also section. Nev1 (talk) 19:20, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

• Support Comment - beginning a look-over now. Please revert if I accidentally change meaning. Queries below. Prose needed less tweaking than previous. nice read and well done. Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:47, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

The castle briefly recovered in the early 17th century - sounds like it was sick...might there be a better way to phrase this? Nothing jumps to mind I confess...

Anglians arrived in the area they named the place "Brougham" - waht should 'Anglians' be linked to? Also, as a word not a sentence Brougham should be italicized not quoted. Was the original form spelt the same way?

In the Under the Vieuxponts section, how do we know what it was like (in the first four sentences or so), archaeological evidence or written records or...?

Okay, good points below. Casliber (talk · contribs) 15:13, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

, Brougham Castle played no part, - + in the defence?

link Catholic magnates

I've seen both storeys and stories in the article - choose one to stick to.

finally, anything about where the ruins are - in countryside, woods, motorways, national park etc.

Overall, looking good and nearly there. just minor fixes above. Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:12, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

The castle's form in its earliest phase is tricky and some guess work is involved (there are no records of how it was and little direct archaeological information). The stone defences weren't built until around 1300, so Summerson deduces that they would have been preceded by a bank and palisade (this was typical of castle construction first being in timber and then stone). Summerson doesn't give the spelling used by the Anglians, probably because it's not certain (there are many variation of "Brougham" even in the 16th and 17th centuries). It's not much, but the background section gives some details on the castle's location. The area's just grassy countryside really with the occasional farm. As for roads, the A66 runs nearby, but I'm not convinced it's particularly important, and it's already mentioned that three Roman roads run through the area. There's a link to the English Heritage site at the end of the article with tourist information such as nearby roads. Nev1 (talk) 14:18, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Note, please locate an image reviewer. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:10, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.