Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Blood on the Floor (Turnage)/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 22 September 2023 [1].

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Blood on the Floor (Turnage)

Nominator(s): Schminnte (talk • contribs) 22:04, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Blood on the Floor is a modern concerto grosso that I stumbled upon while researching the works of Mark-Anthony Turnage, a composer whose works often fuse jazz and classical music. A relatively recent work by classical music standards (composed from 1993 to 1996), it's seen as Turnage's most extensive fusions of these two genres. The suite was written for a large orchestra including many unusual instruments and reflects Turnage's feelings on the death of his brother, Andrew.

I should note here that this is my first ever FAC, so I may need extra explanations if I don't understand some comments. I hope I have done justice to this wonderful work and hope that you will enjoy learning about this piece like I did. (Tim, here is the promised ping!) Thank you all, Schminnte (talk • contribs) 22:04, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

MyCatIsAChonk

Very exciting to see this at FAC, will review soon! I'll note for other reviewers that I was present at the PR. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 01:06, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

• Footnote a needs ref

  done, must have been moved during the GA review - S

• Footnote b: Turnage had previously been a student of Gunther Schuller—the musician who coined the term "third stream"—at Tanglewood. - change the tense to past tense, "Turnage was a student of Gunther Schuller—the musician who coined the term "third stream"—when he attended Tanglewood."

  done - S

• ...first time that Turnage had integrated improvisation into one of his compositions. - cut "had"

  done - S

• Caption: "Elegy for Andy" incorporates musical quotations from Madama Buterfly - typo in Butterfly, and wl Madama Butterfly

  partly done: my spellcheck doesn't work on italics, thanks for spotting that. As for Madama Butterfly, it's linked in the prose just next to the image so I'm hesitant to link per MOS:REPEATLINK. Do you think it's necessary to provide a repeat? - S

Schminnte, I usually link things in captions; the aforementioned MOS:REPEATLINK states, "Generally, a link should appear only once in an article, but it may be repeated if helpful for readers, such as in infoboxes, tables, image captions, footnotes, hatnotes, and at the first occurrence in a section." MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 13:54, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

MyCatIsAChonk, I was noting that, but I was unsure due to the proximity of the image to the link. I can't see any harm in doing this though, so I've went ahead and linked. Schminnte (talk • contribs) 13:56, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

• ...fifteen and three-quarter minutes. - never seen time written this way, would be better as "fifteen minutes and 45 seconds"

  I've done this for consistency with the other written out times and MOS:NUMNOTES says to not use mixed figures and words in this situation. - S

Fair enough then. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 13:54, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

• All citations should use the same casing (title case or sentence case)- this includes the citations under "Sources"

  Should be done, please tell me if I've missed any. - S

• Put "none" in the ref parameter of the templates under "Further reading"

  done - S

• My only other concern is the paragraph indentation. In a number of places, paragraphs are only one or two sentences long, which looks (in my opinion) rather un-encyclopedic. There's some MOS thing about this, but I can't find it for the life of me- oh, well, I'll just have to make another sacrifice to the MOS gods. I suggest formatting more sentences into larger paragraphs, particularly under "Performances"

  I think you're thinking of MOS:PARA? I've tried to combine some sentences to meet this, but it seems to be talking about single sentence paragraphs mainly. - S

Looks much better now! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 13:54, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Schminnte, that's all I got- excellent work since the peer review! Please ping me in replies. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 01:27, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your input again @MyCatIsAChonk! I have responded to all your points, some of which I am unsure on. Thanks, Schminnte (talk • contribs) 13:47, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Very nice work! There's one more thing I forgot- also per MOS:CONFORMTITLE, the names of works in citation titles should be italicised too (e.g. imagine a hypothetical review article titled "Review of Turnage's Blood on the Floor") MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 13:55, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

I think that should be done now as well @MyCatIsAChonk. Thanks, Schminnte (talk • contribs) 14:03, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Support - very nice work on this article since creation! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 14:11, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Image review

• Suggest adding alt text

  I've tried to do this, please correct me if I have made a mistake. This is (I think) my first time using alt text. - S

• Captions that are complete sentences should end in periods. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:03, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

  2nd point done, will need checking on 1st point. Thanks Nikkimaria. Schminnte (talk • contribs) 13:47, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

  Mostly fine, except for a typo in Miller Theatre. Also noticed that a couple of the later images have fixed px size - see MOS:IMGSIZE. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:20, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

  The fixed px should now be gone, thanks for catching the typo Nikkimaria. Schminnte (talk • contribs) 21:04, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Support from Tim riley

I've followed the progress of this article for a little while, and contributed to the peer review, where my various comments were duly dealt with. On rereading now I find nothing new to quibble at (except possibly for the spelling "infantalize" even though the cited NYT spells it thus). The article seems to me to meet all the FA criteria. It appears to be comprehensive, is well sourced, easy to read and as well illustrated as one could ask for in an article about a work of recent times. Happy to support its apotheosis. Tim riley talk 16:50, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you very much Tim! As an aside, the Cambridge, Merriam-Webster and Oxford all seem to accept "infantilize", not "infantalize". I've assumed that this is an error and corrected it per MOS:TYPOFIX. All the best, Schminnte (talk • contribs) 17:10, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Source review - pass

Fine, but a few quibbles and comments:

• We don't usually give both ISBNs and OCLC numbers for books in the list of sources. I see no actual harm in such a work of supererogation here, but a judicious trimming might be in order.
• I don't think we need to be told in the list of sources that London is in the UK or that New York city is in New York state, or that Cincinnati is in Ohio (as opposed, perhaps, to the numerous Cincinnatis elsewhere).
• Discussing the sources before FAC, I think I recall concurring with another editor that although published doctoral theses are OK for WP:RS, MA theses might be iffy, but on reflection I don't think it's a problem: a major university has given its imprimatur. There are 16 citations to the Styles thesis, but I think that's all right.
• The capitalisation of the Styles work in the list of sources looks a bit odd.
• The magazine and newspaper sources are all eminently WP:RS.

Passing the source review. Tim riley talk 13:40, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

The quibbles above are fixed, I've whittled the identifiers down to ISBNs only and removed the unnecessary disambiguators in the location parameters. I did have rationales for the usages of the theses in case they were questioned, so I'll put these down here for anyone else who may be interested: all the doctoral theses have been cited in other works apart from Vellianitis, which can be explained by how relatively new it is. This should be made up for by the fact that the Vellianitis thesis was advised by Professor Peter Franklin, a respected musicologist who has served on the editorial boards of several journals (Nineteenth-Century Music Review, The Wagner Journal and 19th-Century Music). As for Lowery, I consider him a high-quality reliable source as he has served as a lecturer in musicology at institutions like Lewis University. He is also a member of the Society for Ethnomusicology and has given presentations at the society's conferences in the past. All the best, Schminnte (talk • contribs) 16:37, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

GWL

Hey there! Just got some spare time to scroll through FAC, so I'll give this a shot. See invisible comments for my comments' division based on the sections! Additionally if you're interested, I have a FAC-awaiting PR. GeraldWL 10:50, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

@Gerald Waldo Luis, I have attempted to respond to all of your many points. Some I have asked questions about, very few have been declined, and the vast majority have been actioned on. Are you happy with these changes? If I have messed something up or missed a note, please tell me. Thanks a lot for your comments, Schminnte (talk • contribs) 19:57, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

@Gerald Waldo Luis, more replies below, I hope these help! Schminnte (talk • contribs) 16:58, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Hey there, I did a couple more replies but they're just confirmations and I think this article looks all good now! I'll give my support once my last comment is resolved, the one about the archives down below. GeraldWL 03:28, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Archives have now been added to the URLs. Thanks again for all of your comments! Schminnte (talk • contribs) 07:33, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Then that makes a support! I tried listening to it (Decca ver.) and found myself enjoy Sweet and Decay :) Also no pressure but if you can stop by my PR that I linked above that'd be great! GeraldWL 08:57, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Resolved comments from GeraldWL 08:57, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

* "This event shaped"-- "which shaped" to merge two short sentences with the same theme I personally feel that the resulting sentence would be too wordy, is this a necessity? - S I won't go far as calling is necessity since it isn't a MOS, but the last three sentences of para 1 has a reading speed of 4.77s, 4.57s, and 4.97s when I tried reading in average pace. Generally paragraphs would sound less monotone when each sentence vary by length. In my view it would add to the engaging factor of the article. GeraldWL 04:47, 6 September 2023 (UTC) Does this rewrite do anything for you? - S That looks pretty good, yeah. GeraldWL 03:28, 7 September 2023 (UTC) "by Turnage's former"-- by his former, to avoid repetition Not done, I think the moving of the point below solves this too. - S "the suite. The suite"-- another repetitive Sentence has been moved to a better place, which also fixes the repetitive. - S "music critics. Some critics"-- ditch the second critics, maybe replace with "of them" Removed - S I think the premiere is a significant part of this article, thus worthy of inclusion in the lead, probably at para 3 Added - S Should probably link Ensemble Modern, and like the lead describe the nationality and what it is Does my change here work? - S I think so! :) GeraldWL 04:47, 6 September 2023 (UTC) "in the jazz trio"-- in the jazz or in jazz? I think in the jazz trio is correct English - S I suppose you could coalesce the composition history and inspiration together? I imagine it would work well combined with paragraph 2 I feel that it makes sense to make a distinction between the history and inspiration, but I see your point. Does my removal of the section header do anything for you? - S That looks great to for me. GeraldWL 04:47, 6 September 2023 (UTC) "The suite reflects Turnage's personal feelings on the death of his brother Andrew"-- you should also mention how this event happens midway thru composition done - S Wikilink YouTube done - S "Blood on the Floor is a fusion of classical and jazz styles, and has been described as a "third stream" piece." Third stream AFAIK is a fusion of classical and jazz, but this sentence makes it seem like they're two different stuff. Rewriting to "Blood on the Floor has been described as a "third stream" piece, a fusion of classical and jazz styles" or stuff like that. This is also a problem in the lead. changed in both occurrences - S I think harmony and juxtaposition is overlinking I feel like if bar is being linked, then harmony is also warranted. Juxtaposition delinked. - S I think here and in the lead, bar must be linked linked - S "Juxtaposition features frequently in Blood on the Floor." This sentence I think can be ditched, as rephrasing the later sentence to "Turnage also frequently contrasts thematic ideas with no transitions in between them, creating a juxtaposition" would serve well Done - S "employed. These motifs appear" --> "employed, appearing" Changed to something similar - S You should probably write which movement number "Dispelling the Fear" is done - S Why are there two names (Blood on the Floor, Biting)? you should probably clarify what the second thing is they are tempo markings as they appear in the score. I tried to section these off using brackets like in Short Symphony. - S "minutes. The prologue" --> "minutes, and" Not done, instead I merged with the previous sentence. - S Why is the quote box so so thin? There's only 1-5 words per line in my display; suggest widening it a little Widened slightly, it looks fine to me but maybe not to others? Does this help? - S That looks better, though I found that in my display, a 25 or 28% width would make it more noticable as readers on desktop read the prose. GeraldWL 04:47, 6 September 2023 (UTC) I feel that this may produce too much blank space in the quote box: on my screen this leaves an undesirable blank space the size of the quote itself. So, not increased any more for now. - S "for the orchestra. It lasts" --> "for the orchestra, and lasts" done - S ""Shout" both starts" --> "It both starts" Not done to avoid repeating "it" from the previous sentence - S "scaffolding. Scaffolding is used" --> "scaffolding, which is used" done - S "The sketch was not used in the concerto" --> "The sketch was not used there" done - S "ABBA" Linked - S "This structure is one of the most fractured" --> "This structure is regarded as one of the most fractured" done - S "Puccini's Madama Butterfly" --> "Giacomo Puccini's opera Madama Butterfly" Not done to avoid a sea of blue - S I don't think it's seaofblue here, as both links are separated by "opera". GeraldWL 04:47, 6 September 2023 (UTC) Sorry, you're entirely right. Now done: - S Why is jazz fusion hyphen here but not in its article? It's most likely that the cited source used this styling and I mindlessly copied it :) Changed - S ""Crackdown" opens" --> "It opens" Done - S "pianissimo" Linked to Dynamics (music)#Dynamic markings - S "Betts. The movement is dedicated to Betts" --> "Betts, and is dedicated to her" Done - S "The movement's style is dissimilar to that of the other movements, bar "Sweet and Decay""-- meaning? Does the colon now in place clear that up? - S Maybe it's just my ESL position, but I just don't know what "bar "Sweet and Decay"" means. GeraldWL 04:47, 6 September 2023 (UTC) It is a preposition used in British English that means the same as "except for". I prefer this wording, but it can be changed if you think it would be helpful? - S No, it's totally fine! I just did a bit of Googling and it seems fine. Gives me a chance to learn new words and stuff too :) GeraldWL 03:28, 7 September 2023 (UTC) "Floor. The chromatic" --> Floor: the chromatic" done - S The first four sentences here are repetitive "It premiered here. Performed here. Premiered here. Performed here." Suggest changing to "Blood on the Floor was premiered in London in May 1996 at the Queen Elizabeth Hall, before being performed by the Ensemble Modern at the Salzburg Festival in August 1997. It then had its American premiere on 28 September 2001 at the Miller Theatre, New York, performed by the Absolute Ensemble, conducted by Kristjan Järvi." I've moved around some sentences. Is this good? - S Should prolly link Miles David and Miller in their img captions. Done - S "The Berlin Philharmonic" --> The orchestra Done - S "This was a part of their Metropolis concert series, and featured" Good call, done - S Why not combine para 3 and 4? Also, suggest adding to start of para 3, "The suite also saw more performances." Done - S Suggest doing some paraphrasing here, this section is more of quotes after quotes. See WP:RECEPTION which is a common reference for WP FAs. I've tried to paraphrase some of the quotes and to make it a bit more interesting. Is this good? - S "Some critics, like Clements, praised the suite. Writing in The Guardian, Clements commented" --> "Some critics, like Clements, praised the suite, writing in The Guardian" Not done: I feel that this wording is fine as it is. - S Music critics is overlink Removed - S I don't see it removed yet. GeraldWL 04:47, 6 September 2023 (UTC) Now done - S In the table, you can probably merge the Performers cells, & the conductor one Done - S Sorry, I meant merging cells as in having all rows with one cell; see To Fly!#Accolades "Recipient(s)" row. GeraldWL 04:47, 6 September 2023 (UTC) Ah, I see. Done - S Recommend adding archives to the further readings.

• Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:24, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.