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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Black honeyeater/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 12:44, 26 November 2017 [1].

Black honeyeater edit

Nominator(s): Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:40, 3 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Another day another bird..this was well-buffed many moons ago by a long-departed user. Have gone over it and have the sources handy, and am confident this is within striking distance of FA-hood. Have at it. cheers, Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:40, 3 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Images are appropriately licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:09, 3 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

thx Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 16:00, 3 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria: @Casliber:: I was BOLD and added an illustration by John and Elizabeth Gould. Feel free to remove if it's excessive, but I think it'd be nice to have when discussing its taxonomic history. Umimmak (talk) 02:50, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
the illustration is a good addition Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:14, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I'm still learning the specific of what makes a good FA so I don't want to commit one way or the other, but after reading I have the following questions:

  • "It was subsequently reclassified in its own genus Sugomel." Article text doesn't talk it ever being in Sugomel in the first place. ***Re***classsifying is confusing if you never mention it being classified in Sugomel
I have added a bit - but a little more is coming (to explain why it wasn't used for 80 years) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:56, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • And if Salomonsen transferred it from Myzomela to Certhionyx in 1967, when did it go back to Myzomela from being in Sugomel as per Mathews 1922?
Aha, this needs explaining. Mathews was an amateur ornithologist who was an extreme splitter - making numerous new genera, species and subspecies, that were not upheld by later authors. However, as they still had valid descriptions, they have priority to be resurrected should future research prove any to be valid...such as Sugomel. I can see this needs a bit of elaboration in the article. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:59, 4 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Where are the actual citations to Gould 1828, Mathews 1922, Salomonsen 1967?
I haven't added the ones I can't access and see myself Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:44, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why do you discuss the etymology of the generic name Myzomela, which has its own article (this genus was named well before this species was named, so it's weird to say it's named because this bird eats nectar...), but not of Sugomel, which this also is the article for as it's monospecific?
added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:47, 5 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • And also since this is the article for Sugomel as well (should be bolded in lede), are there any synonyms for the genus? Have any other species been classified in this genus?
yes, not really, no Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:47, 5 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • What happened to Myzomela nigra ashbyi Mathews 1912? Were there other subspecies? Have they all been synonymized to specific level? Made to be their own species? When were they no longer accepted?
see above. outcome added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:47, 5 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Immature birds are not separable from adults at a distance" What does this mean? That humans can't tell one from the other at a distance? Umimmak (talk) 08:20, 4 November 2017 (UTC) Added 08:29, 4 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
correct. changed to "distinguishable" to avoid confusion Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:55, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Umimmak: regarding supporting or opposing, in general when I review I keep going until I can't find anything else specific to complain about...as well as looking at criteria Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:14, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Riley edit

As always, some quick ones first:

  • The first sentence in the lead is kind of odd... Maybe say "in the honeyeater family" instead of "in the family of honeyeaters"?
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:04, 5 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the second sentence, "The black honeyeater exhibits sexual dimorphism with the male being black and white while the female is a speckled grey-brown; immature birds look like the female", there should be comma after "dimorphism".
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:04, 5 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Instead of saying "on the wing", it'd be better to say "in flight", so that there isn't any ambiguity.
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:42, 4 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the sentence "While the population appears to be decreasing, they are sufficiently numerous and widespread to be considered of Least Concern on the International Union for Conservation of Nature (IUCN)'s Red List of Endangered species", there are a few problems. First off, you shouldn't use "they" so you can be consistent with using singular pronouns like "it". Also, it sounds a bit odd to be considered "of Least Concern". Maybe just say "least concern"?
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:42, 4 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the taxonomy section, you say "IOC Birdlist", but then you later say the organization's name in full. Maybe you could switch this?
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:13, 5 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • You need to specify what hemisphere you are referring to whenever you say a season (see "Some movements are southwards in spring and summer, moving northwards again in autumn and winter.")
I added before the first ones in that sentence only as I figured it implies it covers the second set as well Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:35, 5 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That is all for now. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 18:40, 4 November 2017 (UTC) More:[reply]

  • It's odd how, in the taxonomy section, you use both single and double quotes to refer to the translations of the foreign terms. Use one or the other. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 22:42, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
changed to double Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:48, 10 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the sentence "Australian amateur ornithologist Gregory Mathews placed the black honeyeater in its own genus Sugomel in 1922, the name derived from the Latin sugo 'I suck', and mel 'honey'" [double quotes in the sentence changed to single quotes], it looks weird to just say "the name derived from". Maybe say "the name being derived from"? RileyBugz会話投稿記録 22:42, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:48, 10 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why do you say that it was transferred from Myzomela to Certhionyx right after you said that Matthews placed it in Sugomel? I'm assuming that it was not generally accepted at the time, or almost certainly not accepted by all at the time, so maybe say that? RileyBugz会話投稿記録 22:42, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
no-one followed Mathews - he made new genera and species everywhere, most of which were not adopted. I need a source which shows this though Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:54, 10 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Casliber: maybe these might be useful, not specifically about Sugomel, tho, so it might be considered improper synthesis: [2]; [3]. If you do find a good ref on him, it might be useful also adding to the article on Mathews himself; I don't know much about the history of ornithological taxonomy to be able to tell which sources are representative. Umimmak (talk) 06:46, 10 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
those led me elsewhere - agree they are a bit tangential to this species, but would be good for Mathews article. I am musing on whether a footnote on Mathews would be useful Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:43, 10 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is a bit repetitive to end both of these sentences with "all": "However, in 2004 genetic study of nuclear and mitochondrial DNA of honeyeaters found that the three species classified in the genus Certhionyx were not closely related to one another at all. Instead, the black honeyeater was closely related to species within Myzomela after all." RileyBugz会話投稿記録 22:42, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
first one removed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:48, 10 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's odd how you have this sentence at the end of the first taxonomy paragraph: "A 2017 genetic study using both mitochondrial and nuclear DNA indicates that the ancestor of the black honeyeater diverged from that of the scaly-crowned honeyeater (Lichmera lombokia) just under million years ago, and the two have some affinities the genus Myzomela." Before, you talk about how it the black honeyeater was basal to Myzomela. But, just after that, and just before the aforementioned sentence, you talk about what its accepted scientific name today is. So, it would make more sense if that were at the end, and if the sentence about the 2017 study was before it. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 22:42, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:50, 10 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@RileyBugz: do you have any other issues that you think I need to address? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:14, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the sentence "The black honeyeater is a small honeyeater with a long slender down-curved bill, a small rounded head and slender neck set on a plump body, and a short, slightly cleft tail", the second honeyeater should be eliminated, and maybe replaced with "relatively small". Also, having all of those adjectives before bill sounds a bit odd; maybe put commas between them? RileyBugz会話投稿記録 12:05, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"small honeyeater" removed, and commas added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:43, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • In this clause, "It has relatively long, pointed wings compared with other honeyeaters", the latter part sounds off. Maybe say "for a honeyeater" instead of "compared with other honeyeaters"? RileyBugz会話投稿記録 12:05, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:43, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • You say "The black honeyeater is quiet outside the breeding season, but calls before and during nesting, often early in the morning", but you don't specify what exactly "before" nesting is. Do you mean when searching for a nest? RileyBugz会話投稿記録 12:05, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
the source just says before and during the nesting part of the breeding season. I can't infer anything else Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:21, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:06, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • It sounds a bit odd when you say "The calls include a soft metallic "chwit, chwit"; a louder note, a "tieee", with a monotonously even pitch and spacing at intervals of several seconds; and a weak "peeee", usually uttered by breeding males." Specifically, I think that it would make more sense if you said "and spacing, having intervals of several seconds between notes". RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:06, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:06, 16 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • What does "high song flights" mean in this sentence: "In high song flights the males give a double noted 'tieee-tieee'"? RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:06, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure as it was added by the person who brought it to GA. It is not in the source. I suspect it is the same call as "chwit, chwit" in the previous sentence. I have removed it Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:06, 16 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • When you say "which may be a food call for the young" in the sentence "A soft scolding call is given by both sexes after the young hatch, which may be a food call for the young", do you mean that the young adopt it as a begging call, or do you mean that it is used by the parents to show to the young that they have food? Either way, it needs to be specified. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:06, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It means the latter. changed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:10, 16 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is a bit of repetition here: "It is constantly on the move, hovering and hawking when feeding, and constantly chasing intruders at food sources." RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:06, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
second one removed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:12, 16 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • After "widespread" and "scattered" there should be a comma in the sentence "The black honeyeater is a bird of the dry inland of Australia, being generally widespread though scattered in western Queenslandand New South Wales to the South Australian border and occasionally recorded in the Victorian Mallee and Wimmera regions." RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:06, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
comma afrer "border" added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:28, 16 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Instead of "plant-bird association", shouldn't it be "plant–bird association"? I mean, plant isn't modifying bird, so you should probably use an en dash instead. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:06, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:28, 16 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the sentence "Some movements are southwards in the Southern Hemisphere spring and summer, and northwards again in autumn and winter", do you mean "Some move southward"? RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:06, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
yes/tweaked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:28, 16 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do you mean "during" instead of "in": "However favourable conditions may result in it breeding anywhere in an irruption"? RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:06, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:28, 16 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the behaviour section, saying "plants in flower" sounds a bit odd; do you mean "plants that are flowering"? RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:06, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"in flower" carrries a specific connotation that the plant is in its flowering season, not just spotting a few flowers. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:28, 16 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Shouldn't "long" have a comma after it in the sentence "The black honeyeater feeds on nectar, probing flowers and foliage with its long fine bill." RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:06, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:28, 16 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • When you say "The black honeyeater hovers briefly around flowers when feeding", do you mean that it flits around from flower to flower, feeding briefly at each one? If so, it would probably be best to instead say "The black honeyeater flies from flower to flower when feeding, briefly hovering to feed at each one." RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:06, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Your version seems a bit wordy but tweaked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:41, 16 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are a few instances of "they" in the article. It would be nice if they could be corrected. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:06, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
changed a couple. The conservation ones refer to multiple species, hence am leaving it Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:47, 16 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • This sentence is redundant: "Like many other honeyeaters, the black honeyeater catches insects in flight." RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:06, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've read this through several times and removed it in my head. I don't think I agree. Linking it to other members of the genus anyway. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:41, 16 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • You should use the present tense instead of the past tense here: "The male, in particular, will rise to a height of 15 metres (50 ft) to seize an insect in mid-air, and then drop to a regularly used perch." Also, saying "15 meters" is oddly specific; do you mean that it rises to a height of up to 15 meters? RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:06, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
tweaked x 2 Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:48, 16 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • In this sentence "A study of black honeyeaters at seven sites in Western Australia regularly recorded breeding females eating ash from the campsite fires and often making repeated visits over a brief period of time", you shouldn't use the definite article "the" before "campsite fires", as you have not introduced such fires yet. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:06, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
good point. removed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:48, 16 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • There should be an indefinite article before "Wheatbelt". Either that or "wandoo" should be plural: "After pecking at the ash, some of the females foraged for insects, sallying from the foliage of nearby Wheatbelt wandoo (Eucalyptus capillosa) before returning for more ash." RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:06, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
went with plural Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:48, 16 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the breeding section, instead of saying "mostly between August and November", it might be better to say "although most breed between August and November". RileyBugz会話投稿記録 00:55, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
that is pretty wordy - there are a lot of "breed"s as is and I don't think there is any ambiguity to clear up Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:52, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • At the end of this sentence "Black honeyeater populations concentrate for breeding wherever the right plants are in flower and there is an abundance of insects, essential for feeding the young", do you mean that both the plants and flower and the insects help feed the young? If so, say "both" before essential, or otherwise specific with "the latter". RileyBugz会話投稿記録 00:55, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"both" added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:52, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Either put a comma after "'song flights'" or replace "which" with "that": "At the beginning of the mating season, males can be seen soaring in 'song flights' which consist of a series of zigzagging movements, high into the air, accompanied by constant calling." RileyBugz会話投稿記録 00:55, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
comma added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:52, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • In this clause, "Breeding pairs of black honeyeaters nest in groups or loose colonies", I assume you mean small groups/colonies? If so, please specify. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 00:55, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I have tried to clarify. does that make it clearer? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:13, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yep! I also just added only before "several pairs", because it looks a bit odd otherwise. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 21:58, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could you please clear up this clause: "though sometimes fallen timber including a fallen Callitris pine is chosen as the nest site"? Do you mean fallen timber, especially those containing Callitris members? RileyBugz会話投稿記録 00:55, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
the source says this - ultimately I have removed the segment on Callitris as I think fallen logs are fallen logs and can imagine the default is to be nonspecific. I think the source just had it as an example Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:18, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm assuming that this a rough number, or does the source specifically say that they are pretty much always that size? This is in relation to this sentence: "The female lays two to three eggs that are 15 millimetres (0.59 in) long, 12 millimetres (0.47 in) wide and have an unusual swollen oval shape." If the source doesn't specify, then you should probably say "about". RileyBugz会話投稿記録 00:55, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
changed to 1 significant figure in the convert template, which was overlooked. The source is in mm only Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:31, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that is certainly a good fix, but I was originally referring to the mm measurements anyways. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 21:58, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • It should probably be made clear to non-birders that this is nest parasitism in this sentence "Black honeyeater nests are occasionally parasitised by Horsfield's bronze cuckoo (Chrysococcyx basalis)." RileyBugz会話投稿記録 00:55, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't follow - the sentence says "nests" Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:31, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the breeding section, "on the wing" should probably be replaced with "in the air" (this does seem to have been addressed earlier in one place, but it seems not here). RileyBugz会話投稿記録 00:55, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:47, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • When you say "giving weak calls in an effort to lure the intruder away from the nest", do you mean that it goes away from the nests in an attempt to lure the intruders away, or do you mean that it tries to "scare" predators away? Either way, it needs to be specified. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 00:55, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
the word "lure" means attract something towards you - hence it means the former and not the latter meaning above unambiguously Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:48, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the fourth paragraph, you give more information about incubation. Maybe you should put the information about incubation from the third paragraph into the fourth. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 00:55, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I amalgamated the paras as there is no clear point of division Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:31, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • In this sentence, "The black honeyeater may be adversely affected by the loss of the emu bush to grazing and weed control by farmers", it might be better to say "due to" instead of just "to". Also, that sentence might be able to be incorporated somehow before the last sentence and after the sentence on specialization. Really, I think that the IUCN status, which is one of the most important pieces of information, should be put first. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 00:55, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, good point. swapped around. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:37, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "They added that although nomadic species such as the black honeyeater may have a large distribution" - You said earlier that it isn't nomadic. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 00:55, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I added this as the main point is that there are regular seasonal patterns as well as a degree of nomadism. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:37, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That should be all! RileyBugz会話投稿記録 00:55, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sources review edit

  • The language of the foreign source should be identified. No other nitpicks. The sources all seem to be of the appropriate quality and reliability and are consistently formatted. Brianboulton (talk) 22:00, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
language added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:51, 10 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support on prose Comments by Finetooth

  • Highly readable and enjoyable. I made a small number of minor edits as I went; please revert any that seem misguided. Here are a few more, nothing big.
changes look fine Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:43, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Taxonomy
  • ¶1 "In 2004 genetic study...". – This bumps a little. I think either a comma after 2004 or the word "a" before 2004 would help.
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:13, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • ¶1 "and the two have some affinities the genus Myzomela – Missing word, "with" after "affinities"?
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:13, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • ¶3 DNA is linked earlier in this section. Unlink this second one?
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:13, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • ¶3 "has shown honeyeater family" – Missing word "the" before "honeyeater"?
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:13, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Description
  • ¶1 "The black honeyeater is a small honeyeater with a long slender down-curved bill,..." – Tighten to avoid repeating "honeyeater"? Suggestion: "The black honeyeater is small, with a long slender down-curved bill,...".
done (see above) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:13, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • ¶3 Move hawking link up one sentence to the first instance in the main text?
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:13, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Distribution and habitat
  • ¶1 "being generally widespread if scattered in western..." – "Though" might work better than "if" in this context.
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:13, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • ¶1 "with some rare records" — Maybe "rare sightings"? Or does "records" have a special meaning?
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:13, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Breeding
  • ¶4 "The incubation period is around sixteen days, and the fledging period approximately eighteen days..." – Move the link up from here to ¶2, where the word "fledge" first appears in " by the time the chicks fledge..."?
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:13, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Conservation status
  • ¶1 Add a brief descriptor such as "biologist" to Claire A. Runge?
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:13, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
General
  • No problem with dabs.
  • No dead URLs.
  • I see a bit of overlinking in the main text. I noted DNA already. Others include incubation, Western Australia, hawking, John Gould, and pied honeyeater.
removed some duplicate links Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:13, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Two of the four images have alt text. I don't know if it's possible to add alt text to a taxobox.
thx! 02:15, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Support Comments from Aa77zz edit

  • The lead is fairly short - consider adding placement of nest and number of eggs
added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:56, 17 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Taxonomy

  • "The black honeyeater was first described by English naturalist John Gould in 1838 as Myzomela nigra,". There is no cite for this statement. The original description is Gould, John (1838). Birds of Australia and the adjacent islands. Vol. Part II. Plate 8. OCLC 492428597. but this is very rare and I can't find a scan online. (Gould "suppressed" the series of plates.) You could instead cite: Paynter, Raymond A. Jr, ed. (1986). Check-list of Birds of the World. Vol. Volume 12. Cambridge, Massachusetts: Museum of Comparative Zoology. p. 364. {{cite book}}: |volume= has extra text (help)
The Australian Faunal Directory page is a secondary source that can ref that. But not the meaning of the name. I have an idea where I can get that have added from another source. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:52, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • This section is repetitive - "ornithologist xxx did this". Consider removing the sentence on Tommaso Salvadori as his contribution doesn't seem significant.
am in two minds about this - I find his amusing as he got the location wrong. And I think fallibility is a Good Thing to show from time to time... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:56, 17 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1967 ornithologist Finn Salomonsen transferred the species from Myzomela to the genus Certhionyx" - This was in Paynter cited above (Salomonsen in Paynter ed. p.338). Perhaps worth adding a cite to this.
added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:19, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It is identified as Sugomel niger by most taxonomic authorities," This is not correct. All four world lists now have Sugomel nigrum - not just the IOC.
tweaked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:25, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Description

  • "Immature birds are not distinguishable from adults at a distance." Make it clear that you are referring to adult *female* birds.
tweaked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:56, 17 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Gould described its flight as "remarkably quick, and performed with zigzag starts".[21]" Better to cite Gould rather than some article behind a pay-wall. The reference is: Gould, John (1848). The Birds of Australia. Vol. Volume 4. London: Self-published. Plate 66. {{cite book}}: |volume= has extra text (help)
tweaked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:36, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Behaviour

  • "Normally found alone, in pairs or in small flocks," this seems to repeat the sentence at the beginning of the section. Why "Normally"?
Dunno - that was written by the person who took it to GA. Removed repetition (and "normally"). Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:40, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Like many other honeyeaters, the black honeyeater catches insects" - Perhaps include a mention of insects in the introduction to the paragraph - hawking is presumably important as young fed insects.
not sure where you mean - the lead? Is already mentioned there. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:41, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I meant the same paragraph beginning "The black honeyeater feeds on nectar " - which I mistakenly interpreted as feeding exclusively on nectar so it came as a slight surprise to discover at the end of the para that they also feed on insects. Perhaps mention nectar and insects at the beginning of the para and then give details but this isn't a deal breaker. - Aa77zz (talk) 09:05, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

- Aa77zz (talk) 14:45, 17 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nearly there. A couple of questions:

  • Are the young fed exclusively on insects or do the parents also regurgitate food?
Higgins just says fed on insects that the parents catch. No mention of regurgitation Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:09, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are the young independent of their parents as soon as they leave the nest?
Have added what I can from Higgins. I suspect the young are independent within a few days but the source does not explicitly say that. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:20, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Although I accept that "Birds in Backyards" passes muster as a RS - I would still prefer to see cites to HANZAB or similar. - no action required

- Aa77zz (talk) 08:54, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Supported above. Another excellent article. Good work. - Aa77zz (talk) 10:24, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

thx! Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:53, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt edit

Comments, leaning support. Just a few things.

  • "by Australian amateur ornithologist Gregory Mathews.[7] Mathews" I would avoid the double-barreled Mathews.
tweaked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:38, 23 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I might split that paragraph before beginning discussion of the 2004 study.
tweaked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:38, 23 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Amy Driskell and Les Christidis to recommend it be placed in its own genus rather than returned to Myzomela.[12] It was subsequently placed again in the resurrected genus Sugomel.[13] " I might change "placed again in" to "moved to", both to avoid repetition and because it feels a bit awkward.
tweaked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:38, 23 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A 2017 genetic study using both mitochondrial and nuclear DNA indicates that the ancestor of the black honeyeater diverged from that of the scaly-crowned honeyeater (Lichmera lombokia) just under million years ago, and the two have some affinities with the genus Myzomela." An "a" in front of "million", I think.
tweaked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:38, 23 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would see if I could reduce the last three paragraphs of "Taxonomy" to two, possibly by adding the text of the third-to-last ("Mathews described ...") to that of the last paragraph. This has the advantage of not interrupting the discussion of DNA issues.
tweaked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:38, 23 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • In "Description", second paragraph, you have consecutive sentences beginning with "Immature birds".
tweaked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:49, 23 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "There is apparently some variation based upon location, with birds in West Australia breeding earlier and breeding in March in Queensland." The word "breeding" occurs twice in four words.
tweaked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:49, 23 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The male, in particular, flies up to a height of 15 metres (50 ft) to seize an insect in mid-air, and then drop to a regularly used perch." "drop" likely should be "drops".
tweaked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:49, 23 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lede refers to the birds liking charcoal, but the body discusses ash. No doubt it's an ENGVAR thing but since they are not identical in AmEng, some readers may be confused.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:36, 23 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
hmm. hadn't realised that - tweaked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:49, 23 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support well done.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:11, 24 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support and comments from Jim edit

Happy to support, but just a few nitpicks

  • from its collecting of ashes from campfires.—why do they do this?
the article hypothesizes it is for the calcium, it is a bit far down the Food and feeding section Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:58, 24 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
My bad, i missed that Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:20, 24 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Immature birds are similar to the adult female, however the upper breast and throat tend to be more uniform grey-brown and the base of the bill is paler;[23] they are not distinguishable from adult females at a distance.[20]—I wonder if "they" hasn't become a bit detached from its subject?
here is my problem - I had "Immature birds.." repeated there but Wehwalt (above) pointed out its repetitiveness...can't win either way... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:58, 24 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps "young birds"? Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:20, 24 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • and very long wings for such a small bird—I can't see your source for this, but generally migratory species have longer wings than their less migratory relatives for more obvious reasons than the one you give, eg whinchat/stonechat or willow warbler/common chiffchaff. Why is this possibility dismissed for your honeyeater?
no idea - many Australian species (like this one) move around seasonally. The source is purely descriptive anyway. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:58, 24 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I still think this is problematic. the development of which has been attributed to its feeding behaviour of flying between shrubs and hovering over flowers isn't just descriptive, it's a theory. If it is just the author's speculation, that should be made clear or the suggested reason removed from the text. Unless other possibilities have been considered, such as the one I've mentioned above, or it can be supported from other authorities, what you have put is unsubstantiated and misleading. Sorry to go on about this, but I recently read an article where they had actually tested the widely accepted theory that common guillemot eggs are oval so the roll in circles and don't fall off the ledge. Turns out to be wrong! Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:20, 24 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:11, 24 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Closing comment: Most of the images have alt text but the lead image and the map do not. For consistency, they all probably should. But that is not worth delaying promotion over. Sarastro1 (talk) 12:43, 26 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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