Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Black-necked grebe/archive1
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 13:08, 29 October 2017 [1].
Black-necked grebe edit
- Nominator(s): RileyBugz会話投稿記録 & Kostas20142 (talk) 00:48, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
This article is about a grebe that can be found throughout the Northern Hemisphere (and in some places in Africa). Me and Kostas think that the article meets all of the featured article criteria, and I personally think it to be an interesting read. Hope you enjoy it! RileyBugz会話投稿記録 00:48, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
Comments from FunkMonk edit
- I'll review this soon, but as usual, I have some image suggestions, since the article looks rather empty. FunkMonk (talk) 01:26, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
- We have photos of the juvenile, and though not a particularly good picture, we should always show it if images are available:[2] Also shown in this video, which could be an interesting adittion.[3] As well as this photo of a feeding individual.[4] There seems to be other interesting stuff on Commons as well.
- This free photo on Commons seems to show some kind of interesting behaviour (courtship display, according to the caption there):[5]
- It seems off that you use the scientific name in one caption under description, yet the common name in another. Seems the second image shows the other subspecies, so you could state this in the caption.
- You should end each subspecies sentence under taxonomy with a citation for clarity.
- I'd disagree; I think that it would be unneeded, as the reader should be able to understand that it is all from the same source. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 19:46, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
- As far as I see, there are no such exceptions at Wikipedia:Citing sources or Wikipedia:Verifiability. Only the lead is exempt from citations. Every stand-alone sentence should be cited, we can never know what the reader may or may not understand. The info could just as well be from different sources, but it isn't apparent. FunkMonk (talk) 20:59, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
- I'd disagree; I think that it would be unneeded, as the reader should be able to understand that it is all from the same source. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 19:46, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
- "The other subspecies', P. n. gurneyi, is slightly smaller than the other subspecies" Repetitive.
- "The adult of this subspecies also has, on its lesser wing-coverts, a rufous-brown tinge." Sentence seems overly convoluted, why not just "The adult of this subspecies also has a rufous-brown tinge on its lesser wing-coverts."
- "in addition with the tufts" In addition to.
- It seems a bis strange that you show each subspecies in the taxobox, but one with breeding and one with non-breeding plumage, but then show both under description with non-breeding plumage. Better to show both with breeding plumage in the taxobox, or take the non-breeding image out (you already show it better under description).
- I switched this up a bit. I'm going to show both in the taxobox (but both will be the nominate subspecies), and then take out one of the images in the description (the one showing the nominate subspecies in non-breeding plumage). I think that it is better to do this because it is better to show the major variations in the species in the taxobox (like how we sometimes show both male and female birds in the taxobox when the two have a large difference). RileyBugz会話投稿記録 19:14, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
- "As of 2016, the black-necked grebe is classified as of least concern by the IUCN" Not needed, and repetitive.
- "classification of the species as of least" Again.
- "In the past, this species was threatened in North America by egg collecting and the millinery industry." When and how?
- "hunted in the Gilan Province and northern Iran" There should be a way of making it clear that the Gilan Province is in Iran without being repetitive.
- "(although this can vary, with nests ranging from about 20 centimetres (8 in) to over 30 centimetres (12 in)) on average while nests in colonies have an average diameter of about 25.5 centimetres (10 in)." Not sure this very long sentence needs to parenthesis, also looks confusing with the multiple× parentheses within a parenthesis.
- "it will often nest in mixed-species colonies." With which other species? I see you mention one species further down, but why not just mention it briefly the first time you mention mixed colonies?
- "It is suggested that sometimes, some pairs" Why is this only "suggested", when almost everything else is stated as fact?
- "individuals used the whole area of the lake" Use the whole area of a lake? Why definite tense?
- "with the last note only able to be heard" "Less audible" would sound better, and is less wordy.
- "This grebe lays one, but sometimes two,[9] clutch" The tenses are messy here, could be rewritten.
- You use the word "although" an incredible amount of times, could be good with some variation.
- "Egg in a museum collection" Name the museum, WP:easter egg links are advised against.
- "This is compared to other species of grebes, which cover up their eggs when leaving the nest." This seems odd. You could say "by comparison, other species" etc.
- "Predation does not usually take eggs" This is oddly worded. You could say predators, or "eggs are usually not lost to predation" or such.
- You don't explain why it needs to migrate for moulting
- Is this in US English? You write "moult" (instead of "molt"), which is UK English. You also say colour instead of color.
- Are all those external links really useful?
- "this bird greyish-black upperparts," Has?
- I only see one unanswered issue left, then I can support. FunkMonk (talk) 21:46, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
- Support - everything nicely addressed. FunkMonk (talk) 22:00, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
Sources review edit
Only minor issues:
- Ref 2: You should note that the source language is German
- Ref 10 carries a "subscription required" note, yet it's the same source as ref 6, which doesn't.
- Publisher locations missing from 11, 14 and 29
Otherwise, all sources appear to be of appropriate quality and reliability. Brianboulton (talk) 15:58, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
- @Brianboulton: I have replied to all of your comments. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 02:20, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
- All sources issues resolved. Brianboulton (talk) 08:02, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
Comments from Sabine's Sunbird edit
Glad to see the bird train continued while I was on holiday. Some comments:
- Taxonomy is a bit threadbare. No reference to relationships with other grebes within its genus. HBW notes that Sometimes placed in genus Dytes (not noted at all in article) and Often considered to include †P. andinus as a race. (the extinct Andean Grebe) and Also closely related to P. juninensis, P. occipitalis and P. taczanowskii. Older specific name caspicus officially suppressed. E African birds sometimes placed instead in race nigricollis. All of these points probably merit mention. Sabine's Sunbird talk 05:19, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
- I actually got myself to search through the archives for the story behind this. Hopefully it will now satisfy you. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 22:48, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
- Tres bien. I'll go through the rest tomorrow. Sabine's Sunbird talk 08:59, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
- I actually got myself to search through the archives for the story behind this. Hopefully it will now satisfy you. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 22:48, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
- Some weird stuff happening with structure. Information about migration is pretty thin and scattered around article. The following from BNA would add some context to the single statement of the wintering grounds of NA birds for example: Despite broad breeding range, main winter range is fairly restricted. Hundreds of thousands, the vast majority of the population, evidently winter around islands in the n. and central Gulf of California, with additional tens of thousands on the Salton Sea, CA. Several thousand winter on salinas at Guerrero Negro, Baja California Sur (Carmona and Danemann 1998); only small numbers are reported elsewhere.
- The bird migrates in winter, to places such as the Palearctic and east Africa and Asia. This is very imprecise and not very helpful. Birds migrate to Asia from Asia?
- Clarified. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 20:38, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
- Palearctic Is a similarly unhelpful descriptor of its wintering range. Click on the link to see. Sabine's Sunbird talk 05:28, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
- Clarified. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 20:38, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
- it travels as much as 6,000 kilometres (3,700 miles) to reach prosperous areas that are exploited by few other species Prosperous is an unusual word here.
- I would disagree; they fly to areas where there is basically shrimp (and really only shrimp) everywhere. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 20:38, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
- It is usually used in a financial sense or referring to success. I have never seen it refer to the natural wealth or condition of a land, only in the sense that it is used. Sabine's Sunbird talk 08:28, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
- Huh, maybe it is a difference between American and New Zealand literature. Anyways, would "flourishing" do? RileyBugz会話投稿記録 11:00, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
- Nah, I moved here but grew up in the US and UK. I would say to reach rich feeding areas... Sabine's Sunbird talk 07:16, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
- Huh, maybe it is a difference between American and New Zealand literature. Anyways, would "flourishing" do? RileyBugz会話投稿記録 11:00, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
- It is usually used in a financial sense or referring to success. I have never seen it refer to the natural wealth or condition of a land, only in the sense that it is used. Sabine's Sunbird talk 08:28, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
- I would disagree; they fly to areas where there is basically shrimp (and really only shrimp) everywhere. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 20:38, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
- The legs only move when they are underwater. maybe the legs on start moving? Sabine's Sunbird talk 01:14, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
- Pair formation in the black-necked grebe starts during pauses in the migration to the breeding grounds. It continues through the breeding season, and sometimes occurs on the wintering grounds. This suggests that it can start before the pauses. Also, perhaps it is fair to say it happens during migration, and qualify after?
- The eggs, although they are not initially spotted, do get stained by the plant matter that the nest is built out of. Does this mean that the stains are always spotted in appearance?
- Predation is usually not the primary cause of egg loss, with most failures occurring when the chicks have hatched this is the first introduction of the concept of nesting failure in the article, so I would preceed failure with the word nesting. Sabine's Sunbird talk 05:28, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Coordinator query: Sabine's Sunbird, do you have anything further to add here? Sarastro1 (talk) 21:31, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
- Not logged in (at work) but my comment about Palearctic remains unanswered above. 202.8.13.71 (talk) 21:49, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
- In the lead It occasionally practices foliage gleaning. is this common enough to warrant mention here?
- In the subspecies description section you render the names of subspecies three different ways, one just the subspecific epithet, once the full trinomial and once the trinomial with the genus and species abbreviated. Is there a reason for this inconsistency?
- When I used just the epithet, I was saying something specific about the epithet itself (the etymology, in this case). I only used the abbreviation after I had already written out the genus (or species) that I abbreviated in full. Hopefully that makes sense. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 20:28, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
- When breeding, the black-necked grebe gives a quiet "ooeek" that ascends in pitch from an already high pitch. This call is also used as a territorial call Is the "when breeding" referring to the whole season or the actual act? If the whole season then is there another specific behaviour or purpose alluded to in the first sentence? Also, how can the call be territorial when the species is noted not to be territorial later in the article?
- The source doesn't specify in relation to the first sentence. Second, it was only mentioned that it wasn't territorial when courting. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 19:56, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
- If the species is territorial in other contexts it should be mentioned to avoid the misunderstanding that I mentioned being made. I did some follow up research and I see the species maintains a small breeding territory in the immediate vicinity of the nest. Sabine's Sunbird talk 18:41, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
- The source doesn't specify in relation to the first sentence. Second, it was only mentioned that it wasn't territorial when courting. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 19:56, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
- This grebe is silent when it is not breeding[4] and when it is feeding or resting per above it would be good to make the distinction between seasons and behaviours more explicit here.
- After a period of time, it migrates to winter in places such as Maybe After completing its moult they may remain on the lakes for several months before moving to their wintering grounds (BNA).
- This has the effect of the behaviour of black-necked grebes changing in response to the availability of brine shrimp; very wordy, maybe The behaviour or black-necked grebes changes in response to the availability of brine shrimp;
- This species builds its floating nest in the usually shallow water of[21] open lakes.[22] The nest itself is anchored to the lake by plants try The black-necked grebe nests on open lakes, building a floating nest in shallow water and anchoring it to plants - a little simpler and you don't have to cite mid sentence without a punctuation mark. Sabine's Sunbird talk 19:29, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
- Support Sabine's Sunbird talk 04:43, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
support Comments from Cas Liber
edit
Taking a look now....
-
There are currently three accepted subspecies, including the nominate subspecies.- err, why mention the nominate here? Comes over as odd...
I'd move mention to the sentence The subspecies californicus can be distinguished by its usually longer bill. --> "The subspecies californicus can be distinguished (from the nominate subspecies) by its usually longer bill. "
To get crustaceans, molluscs, tadpoles, and small frogs and fish, this grebe dives. - odd flow and odd use of "get" - I'd rejig as "This grebe dives to catch/hunt crustaceans, molluscs, tadpoles, and small frogs and fish."
link brine shrimp in lead.
date Brehm's description in the body of text
This grebe eats mostly insects (both adult and larval insects)...why not just say "This grebe eats mostly insects, of both adult and larval stages.."
Been busy and rushed for time. Will have another look later, but looking on track...Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:09, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
- link moult at first instance in body, link biotoxin.
Otherwise I think that's about it. Not seeing any prose clangers and looks pretty comprehensive so cautious support Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:38, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Source Review from Adityavagarwal edit
- No issues source wise, and really good sources cited. No copyvio issues either. Support Adityavagarwal (talk) 15:30, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Coordinator query: Adityavagarwal are you supporting this on sourcing, or in general? I only ask because it is not clear on what grounds you are supporting, and we had a source review earlier in this FAC. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:31, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
- Sarastro1 I thought the previous source review was on general formatting and reliability, and not on spot checks, right? So, I supported on just sources, and not prose (meaning it is all clear source-wise, and spot checks were also fine). It is not included in the general three prose reviews required for an FAC. It is just to mention clearly that source review went all fine! If support should not be mentioned for this and just the sentence stating that the source review went fine, please let me know! :) Adityavagarwal (talk) 06:48, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
Image review edit
- File:Black-necked Grebe Schwarzhalstaucher.jpg: Where does the license come from?
- From here. What that means, I have no idea. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 20:58, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
- Sounds like it's copyrighted to me. May want to ask on commons:User talk:Merops why they did upload the image under that license. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 08:49, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
- Done. Hopefully they reply soon. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 21:58, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
- Sounds like it's copyrighted to me. May want to ask on commons:User talk:Merops why they did upload the image under that license. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 08:49, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
- From here. What that means, I have no idea. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 20:58, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
- File:Podiceps nigricollis 001.jpg: License and use seem fine for me.
- File:Black-necked Grebe-map-location-map-en.svg: Use seems fine, the file relies on File:Black-necked Grebe-map-localisation-fr.svg whose source link is broken.
- File:Eared Grebe.jpg: Use is fine, the lack of author information is innocuous (may merit a change in {{Information}} if anywhere) but lack of EXIF makes the license a tiny little questionable. Caption information depends on the map seems like.
- File:Podiceps nigricollis IMG 4467.jpg: License and use seems fine, assuming that the license changed after the upload to Commons.
- File:Geoorde fuut met jongen-4961573.webm: License and use seem fine, wondering where in the source the license is stated however.
- File:Eared Grebe Courting Display (34617077235).jpg: License and use seem fine for me.
- File:Podiceps nigricollis MWNH 1923.JPG: License and use seem fine for me.
- File:Podiceps nigricollis diving.JPG: License and use seem fine for me.
- No ALT text so no comments on it. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 15:57, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
- I have now added alt text, if you want to take a look. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 01:51, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
- Seems OK to me. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 09:33, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
- I have now added alt text, if you want to take a look. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 01:51, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
Coordinator comment: I notice that there is still an unaddressed issue with one of the lead images, and I'd like that to be sorted before we promote. Otherwise, we are good to go. In the meantime, if someone could have a look at the use of "however" in the article (see WP:HOWEVER) as it is often unnecessary. Finally, I note that there is no alt text in the article. While this is not an explicit FA requirement, and is not an obligation, I always feel that FAs should demonstrate best practice on this issue. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:19, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
- Can I just check how we are progressing on this last issue? Also, Jo-Jo Eumerus, if we cannot get a response from the uploader, what is the best way to move forward on this? Sarastro1 (talk) 10:42, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
- The question of the first image touches on one of the least likeable aspects of Wikipedia's copyright policy (at least for me). Unless people really are questioning the copyright status of the first image, I'd recommend to leave it but to ask Merops again to clarify the copyright status (RileyBugz did actually post that question and immediately reverted themselves, so I am not sure if Merops actually saw it or no). Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 11:01, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
- I did it because it seems that FunkMonk has basically solved the mystery. I'm willing to revert myself again, though. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 15:20, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
- OK, pardon me if I'm being thick, but I'm still not sure if the image issue is resolved, and if not, what remains to be done. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:53, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
- We do not have any explicit link from the website to the Commons uploader, that's is my only issue. I see no reason to doubt that Merops is the same person as the copyright owner of that website, so I'd accept that the image is freely licensed but would encourage Merops to say so on the website as well, otherwise people will be confused. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 19:43, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
- OK, pardon me if I'm being thick, but I'm still not sure if the image issue is resolved, and if not, what remains to be done. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:53, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
- I did it because it seems that FunkMonk has basically solved the mystery. I'm willing to revert myself again, though. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 15:20, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
- Can I just check how we are progressing on this last issue? Also, Jo-Jo Eumerus, if we cannot get a response from the uploader, what is the best way to move forward on this? Sarastro1 (talk) 10:42, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
Closing comment: OK, I'm assuming from this that the images are all good to go and will be promoting shortly. Sarastro1 (talk) 13:08, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
- Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Sarastro1 (talk) 13:08, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.