Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Bill Madden (soldier)/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 21 February 2024 [1].

Bill Madden (soldier) edit

Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:13, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bill Madden died in Chinese captivity during the Korean War, the only Australian to do so. He had served in the latter stages of WWII, and in Japan during the occupation, and after briefly returning to civilian life, volunteered for service in Korea. A member of the signals platoon of the 3rd Battalion, Royal Australian Regiment, he was one of three unit members captured during the Battle of Kapyong in April 1951. From the moment of capture Madden resisted his captors and refused to cooperate with them. In response they starved and beat him. He died as a result of malnutrition and physical abuse in November 1951 and was posthumously awarded the George Cross. The award was the highest decoration awarded to an Australian during the Korean War. Madden is the third Australian GC recipient (and first non-South Australian) I have brought to FAC, the others being George Gosse and Lionel Matthews. Reviewers should note the critical thread on the talk page suggesting that the article is is one-sided and hagiographical. I am interested in the views of others about those criticisms, and if they are considered accurate, suggestions about what might be done to address them. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:13, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review edit

Suggest adding alt text

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:26, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:Horace_Madden.jpg: why is this believed to be a government work? Nikkimaria (talk) 05:03, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

G'day Nikkimaria. It was almost certainly donated to the AWM by a family member (P. Regan, highly likely to be a child of Madden's sister Florence Regan) and when people donate works to the AWM they transfer the ownership to the Crown (of which the AWM is a statutory body), after which the copyright has expired in the usual manner. Or vice versa, but regardless, the ownership resides with the Crown so the expiration date of 1974 still applies. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:22, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hm. Do you have a link confirming the copyright ownership is transferred? Their copyright page indicates content they display may be either owned or licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:37, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I donated a bunch of photos to them a few years back and they definitely took ownership of them as part of the transfer deed. I'll see if I can find something more generic. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:43, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK Nikkimaria, [2] this says "Can you confirm you are the legal owner,* and would be happy to transfer permanent legal ownership to the Australian War Memorial?" the strong implication here is that donation involves transfer of legal ownership, otherwise why would they ask the question? If it was licensed rather than owned by the AWM, surely the image description would say that? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:49, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Check out the asterisk on that question, though: "Legal ownership means having ownership of the physical item. Copyright is a separate issue". Nikkimaria (talk) 00:50, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes Nikkimaria, but Crown copyright is specifically about ownership combined with the expiration of the copyright. "This image is protected by Crown Copyright because it is owned by the Australian Government or that of the states or territories, and is in the public domain because it was created or published prior to 1974 and the copyright has therefore expired". It doesn't say that the "copyright is owned by the Australian government". Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:11, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Going to have to disagree with your interpretation there: Crown copyright means the copyright belongs/belonged to the Crown. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:17, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok Nikkimaria, I have clearly misunderstood. If that is the case, if I cannot establish that the copyright was transferred with the ownership, do I need to move it to Wikipedia and employ a non-free use rationale, as while its copyright has definitely expired under Australian law (on 1 January 1998, fifty years after it was taken) and it clearly meets PD-Australia, that is after the URAA date and so PD-US-1996 cannot be used, and no other US PD licence applies? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:25, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do we know when it was first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:26, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The earliest I can find is 1982 in The Bulletin, and that was the airbrushed version also held by the AWM, but clearly the same picture. It may have been published earlier, but I've checked newspapers etc and no dice. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:30, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, forgot to ping you Nikkimaria. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:20, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The easiest solution, if AWM is responsive, might be to confirm with them that copyright was transferred. Nikkimaria (talk) 06:22, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I've emailed them. Will see what response I get. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:37, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Nikkimaria and @Peacemaker67: The page for the image on the AWM website says it's in the public domain because the "copyright expired" and has it marked with a CC PD 1.0. Their copyright page notes that they mark each image with the appropriate copyright status, so unless we believe they got this wrong, it should be in the public domain. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:52, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi voorts, copyright expiration rules differ between the US and Australia, and for images hosted on Commons we need to consider both. The image is absolutely PD in Australia, but may or may not be in the US. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:57, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Nikkimaria. I got an answer from the AWM, but not along the lines I asked for. They say "Thank you for your email and for contacting us in regards to the photograph of Bill Madden. This photograph is actually has the status of ‘Copyright Expired’ so you are free to use it. We do ask though that you have a credit line that acknowledges the AWM with the accession number P02580.001 as the original source." I don't think that takes us anywhere, so given this FAC is nearing conclusion, I propose uploading the same photograph to Wikipedia under a NFUR. See any issues with that? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:04, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Might be hard to justify a non-free image given we have the painting as free? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:08, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My argument would be that the painting must have been done from a photograph (given when it was painted) and wasn't sat for in person, so it doesn't really reflect what he looked like as much as a photograph. Personally, given the guy's nickname was "Slim" I reckon the body is completely out of proportion, makes him look like a pinhead with broad shoulders and barrel chest when his head (in the photograph) appears to have been much bigger in comparison to his body. I think it could be argued that it isn't a great likeness. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:18, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, fair enough. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:23, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Right, done. Thanks for your patience, Nikkimaria. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:11, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that, but it's listed on their website as under a CC PD 1.0 license, which means that it was PD in Australia and has now been released into the PD worldwide. Additionally, I would assume this image of a random soldier from Australia was probably never registered in the US, meaning it's PD in the US too. In any event, wouldn't the best way to resolve this be to bring a deletion discussion at Commons and see what the outcome is? Best, voorts (talk/contributions) 17:50, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You need to read Nikkimaria’s comments about legal ownership of the copyright above. I have nominated it for deletion at Commons. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 20:41, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review and comments by voorts edit

Source review of this version:

All sources are high quality RSes.
Citation style is consistent.
Spot check upon request.
WL Headline Publishing, NewSouth Publishing (and change to that instead of New South Publishing), Allen & Unwin Australian Dictionary of Biography, Australian National University, Australian War Memorial, and Department of Veterans' Affairs (Australia).
For [3] and [4], change the em dashes in the title to en dashes.

All of the above addressed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:48, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Horner & Bou lists them as editors; is the article citing a particular chapter written by a contributor? If so, that chapter and the author should be in the citation.

Of course, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:58, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also WL The Canberra Times. voorts (talk/contributions) 03:15, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:19, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments:

I've read through the article and didn't find any apparent spelling/grammar/style errors. Structure and organization is good.
Regarding the charge of hagiography, I agree with the talk page editor to the extent that Wikipedia's PAGs produce a pro-Western bias, but for better or for worse, Wikipedia includes only information that is verifiable, not information that is true.
That said, phrases like fiercely resisted his captors, heaping abuse on them and maintaining an unbroken spirit are based on eyewitness accounts and should be attributed (e.g., "According to his compatriots ..." at the start of the sentence). The language can also be toned down a bit; "fiercely" and "unbroken spirit" are borderline puffery.

Sure, toned it down a bit and attributed to the award citation and Blanch. See what you think. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:19, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nice work. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:39, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, voorts. Will get right onto those points. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:42, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Appreciate the suggestions, voorts, I may have addressed your points thus far. Have a look at how I've addressed the puffery and let me know what you think, or if you have anything further? Regards, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:19, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Blanch observes", "Farrar-Hockley observed" -> change to said or stated per MOS:SAID. voorts (talk/contributions) 16:14, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the delay, voorts, these are addressed now. Thanks so much for the review! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:28, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent. Source review passed and support this nom. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:16, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SC edit

Marker for now. - SchroCat (talk) 09:50, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fascinating story. Only a few very small points from me:

Lead

Is there a reason you don't wl World War II here but you do in the Early life section? (I wouldn't bother with either, personally, but people don't seem to be able to see the term without linking it)

No, entirely agree. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:28, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Early life

"with the Militia": lower case m, as it's not a formal title

In this case it was. The title of that initially part-time bit of the Army was changed from Citizen Forces to Militia after the Scullin Labor government abolished the compulsory scheme in 1929 to try to reinforce that it involved voluntary service only. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:28, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Capture

The "Slim was a real hero" quote should be in line – it's too short to be blockquote and the formatting makes it appear as sort of editorialising, by making it stand out prominently

fair enough, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:28, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The quote he "was so thin that he looked like a skeleton..." should be attributed, as it's an opinion

Sure, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:28, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's my lot; I hope they are helpful. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 14:21, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look, SchroCat, I reckon I might have addressed your comments now. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:29, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Nice article. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 06:58, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie edit

Just some minor prose comments.

Since the word "undaunted" appears in his citation, and you already have quotes around "outstanding heroism" in the lead, I would add quotes to "undaunted" -- best to be clear it's the citation, not Wikipedia, saying it.
"The beatings included rifle butt strikes to the chest which broke several ribs – he was further punished through restriction of rations – and his physical condition deteriorated." Parenthetical dashes are usually used for interjections, but here I think we're accumulating information about his condition, so how about "The beatings included rifle butt strikes to the chest which broke several ribs, and he was further punished through restriction of rations. His physical condition deteriorated."? Or join that last clause with the next sentence if that's too short?
"Having been posted as missing in action, Madden's family did not learn of his death until 1953": needs rephrasing -- as written "posted" refers to Madden's family, not Madden.
I think the artist Bruce Fletcher might be worth a redlink, based on a quick Google.
"After the war ended, his unit was then posted to Japan": I don't think you need the "then" here.
"then south of the 38th parallel – the border between the two Koreas, and by early December": I think that comma should be a dash, to match the previous dash.
"In early February, 3 RAR was again in reserve, this time it was in positions around Yeoju, where ...": either cut "it was", or make it a colon after "reserve".
What's the copyright status for the long quote from the London Gazette?
Can you check the citation against the Gazette version? The commas you have around "purchased from Koreans" are not in the original. I didn't spot any other differences.
"It was the highest decoration awarded to an Australian during the war." Suggest "during the Korean War".

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:12, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

G'day Mike, thanks so much for taking a look, and for your comments and suggestions. I think I have addressed them all now. With regards to the London Gazette, it is subject to the Open Government Licence, see the bottom of this page. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:42, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I made one more edit to address one of the points; hope you're OK with that. These were all minor points and they're all fixed; full support. A nice article. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:35, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

G'day @WP:FAC coordinators: this looks GTG. Can I have a dispensation for a fresh nom please? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:58, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You may. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:44, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from JennyOz edit

Hi PM, as usual out of my depth with military content but always appreciate your bios so my questions are...

lede

while a prisoner of war of the Chinese forces during - PLA link should be People's Volunteer Army?
between the United Nations forces on one side - is United Nations Command better link?
The beatings included rifle butt strikes to the chest which broke several ribs, he was further punished through restriction of rations - think it needs a semicolon after "ribs" not comma
As Madden had been posted as missing in action, his family did not learn of his death until 1953 - perhaps 'Madden was posted as missing in action and his family did not learn of his death until 1953.' because "As" suggests something unexplained. Unless we say at the end of war or similar
the 3 RAR other ranks bar was named - should the bar have a possessive apostrophe ie other ranks'
at the Australian War Memorial, in Canberra. - not sure comma needed?

All done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:27, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Military career

during the eponymous campaign - mention part of the Pacific War?
first engagement with Chinese forces, which - pipe to People's Volunteer Army?
On 25 January 1951, the United Nations forces launched - United Nations Command?

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:13, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Capture and death

a major prisoner of war collection point - hyphens because before noun
Madden had been beaten around the chest using a rifle butt - with not "using"?
Madden died of malnutrition and the result of ill-treatment soon after the group arrived at Changsong, around 6 November. - could add or insert aged 27

These done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:24, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Madden remained posted as missing in action until 1953 when his family was told of his death - say something about how it was determined in 1953? Liberated POWs?

Presumably, but none of the sources say explicitly. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:24, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lieutenant General Sir John Northcott - link Lieutenant general (Australia)

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:24, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

John Northcott - that he had commanded BCOF just a coincidence?

Yes, it would be usual for the Governor of his home state to present it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:24, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

the battalion other ranks bar to be named - battalion's?

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:24, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Caption

group shot uses unexplained BCOF - so at "After the war ended, he was posted to Japan as part of the British Commonwealth Occupation Force." add (BCOF)?

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:24, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Refs

Gai Brodtmann - are we allowed to tweak this field in Hansard cites? (coincidentally I came across another like this today and wondered) so that speaker=[[Gai Brodtmann]] becomes speaker=[[Gai Brodtmann|Brodtmann Gai]]? (Doesn't matter too much in this ref because she appears alphabetically correctly with either her first or last name.)

Sure, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:24, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]