Wikipedia

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Bill Brown (cricketer)

< Wikipedia:Featured article candidates
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 22:01, 12 September 2008 [1].

Bill Brown (cricketer) edit

Nominator(s): YellowMonkey (bananabucket)


I'm nominating this article for featured article because it should meet the FA criteria. Another cog in the {{Invincibles Advert}} FT drive. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 08:58, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments I'll give it a c-e. Only big issue at first glance is the Lead is too chunky IMHO. Feel free to revert any of my foolishness. --Dweller (talk) 09:02, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Blnguyen, Sandy, the c-e may take some time. I'm about to go off-wiki and can't see myself editing much again until Monday; I'd anticipate it'll take me a few days to get through it all, so middle of next week at earliest. Sorry. Happy for FAC to progress without me, so no O/S from me for now. --Dweller (talk) 11:27, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • Brown captained Australia in one Test in March 1946, against New Zealand in a match that was retrospectively accredited.
I know what you mean but a lay reader may struggle.
  • A right-handed opening batsman, he and Jack Fingleton formed an opening pair in the 1930s that was regarded as one of the finest in Australian Test history.
Present tense ?
  • Brown had backed up too far and left his crease before the bowler
Should back up be linked ?
Especially as "backing up" actually means going forward.--Grahame (talk) 12:22, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • With steady performances, Brown forced his way into the Test team during the tour, batting at No. 3. With regular openers Bill Ponsford and Bill Woodfull retiring at the end of the tour,
Brown opened in all Tests of 1934 except the first.
  • The highlight of his tour was an unbeaten 206 in the Second Test at Lord's, which saved Australia from defeat.
I think the "which saved Australia from defeat" should come just after the 206.
Maybe: "He was notable for saving Australia from defeat in the Second Test at Lord's by scoring an unbeaten 206." --Grahame (talk) 12:22, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cricket resumed in 1945–46 and Brown captained an Australian team to New Zealand, leading the team in a retrospectively accredited Test match in the absence of Don Bradman.
Split ?
I suggest "Cricket resumed in 1945–46 and Brown—in the absence of Don Bradman—captained an Australian team to New Zealand, leading the team in a retrospectively accredited Test match".--Grahame (talk) 12:22, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are too many commas in the lead some of which are unnecessary. Tintin 09:36, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All of these have been tweaked or chopped out by Dweller and myself. Backing up has been wikilinked in the main body it isnt in the lead anymore. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 08:00, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image comments
    • All images are public domain according to Australian law, all have date, author, source tags. One thing, though: Image:BillBrown1.jpg's use in the article is a rather pointless 'Bill Brown' caption. Perhaps move that image to the infobox for a full-body shot instead of the small mugshot? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 13:47, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's possible but the clarity of the headshot in the infobox is much better. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 08:00, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments by User:Ling.Nut
    • I'm not sure that Image:Arthur Morris.jpg adds any value to the article. It also spills over into the following section, in my browser/monitor/personal settings. An image of Vinoo Mankad would be better (if available), since the next section focuses on him. Either way, though, Morris seems unnecessary.
    • "Brown was unable to perform to his previous standards he was ousted"... grammar.
    • I agree with User:Dweller that there are a few too many details in the WP:LEAD. For example,I hate to keep picking on Morris, but I don't think the lead needs to state who replaced Brown... and various other details can be trimmed. Ling.Nut (talk—WP:3IAR) 11:08, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Removed Morris and added the missing word. And the later part has been trimmed. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 08:00, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support.
    • Don't forget to delink the dates in the infobox ("International information").
    • In a match in 1947–48, Brown was the unwitting victim of the first instance of being "Mankaded" by India's Vinoo Mankad - grammar with "being".
    • He was on the verge of leaving Sydney when an innings of 172 for his Shire team reinvigorated him - him, or his career (goes with whether "Sydney" means the city or the cricket club)?
Done. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Brown amassed 878 runs for the season at a healthy average of 67.53, including four further half-centuries - "a further four half-centuries"?
Redundant by Dweller's rewording. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • This placed Brown second behind Bradman in the first-class run-scoring aggregates - clarify that this was for State cricket, not total (ie. int'l) or similar.
Actually it was for any first-class matches in Aus during the summer. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • saying "You have chosen chaps who do not like fast bowling". - this is inconsistent with the rest of the article which uses ." instead.
No it isn't because it isn't a full sentence, so the quotes stay before the period, per Tony1. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Upon arrival, Brown missed selection for the tour opener against Worcestershire, before making a century against Cambridge in his second tour match, batting in the middle order - his second, or the tour's second?
    • It was Australia's first double-century opening stand in Test cricket.[16] Their partnership remains an Australian Test record for the first wicket against South Africa. - I suggest combining the two short sentences into one, given they're both about records.
Done. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Brown posted 121, a new highest score at Test level - for him or Australia or ...?
Done. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The pair led the platform for two further innings victories, as Australia took the series 4–0 - may be worth saying if it was a four or five Test series.
Done. and fixed teh obvious "led the platform" YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's down to the start of "Wisden Cricketer of the Year" done - I'll do that tomorrow. Cheers, Daniel (talk) 08:18, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - sources look good, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:45, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support—well written, comprehensive article.--Grahame (talk) 02:04, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support the lead is a little large, and there is an ugly formatting gap part-way down caused by an image, but I don't feel these will hamper this FAC. SGGH speak! 08:46, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: (User:MDCollins)

  • William Alfred Brown OAM (31 July 1912 – 16 March 2008[1]) shouldn't the ref come after the punctuation? Also suggest "William Alfred "Bill" Brown" as it is not mentioned elsewhere in the prose (and Bill is in the infoboxes, captions and quotations).
Done. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Brown was a member of Don Bradman's Invincibles, who toured England in 1948 without suffering a defeat. - in 1948 without defeat.
  • Raised in New South Wales, Brown initially struggled in both work and cricket at the start of the Great Depression, save this for the early years section. By removing the first "NSW" link it allows the cricket team link to take preference. "Brown made his first-class debut for New South Wales in 1932"
  • In a match in 1947–48, Brown was the unwitting victim of the first instance of being "Mankaded" by India's Vinoo Mankad. - can you be more specific with the date? As the season isn't linked to, anyone trying to find the match might have to do some searching. Month and Year would probably suffice. The Mankad section doesn't really help either. Maybe a ref to the scorecard?
  • When poor form made his selection for the 1938 tour of England the subject of debate, Brown responded with 1,854 runs on tour, - as he did go on tour (in order to respond to the debate), suggest "After poor form made his selection..."
  • The outbreak of the Second World War cost Brown his peak years, which he spent in the Royal Australian Air Force - doesn't quite read right. Brown was at his peak at the outbreak of WWII/Brown spent WWII in the RAAF, costing him his peak cricketing years?
  • Not sure about the emdashes around "in Bradman's absence": "Cricket resumed in 1945–46; in Bradman's absence, Brown captained an Australian team to New Zealand, leading the team in a match that was retrospectively awarded Test status.
  • Brown missed the entirety of the following season, due to injury - "Brown missed the entirety of the following season because of injury"
  • Selected for the Invincibles tour, he performed reasonably well in the non-international matches, but, with Morris and Barnes entrenched as openers, he batted out of position, in the middle order during the first two Tests, struggled and was dropped from the Test team, never to return. - far too many commas - can probably be shortened. "Reasonably" - how reasonably? Possibly pipe link [[Batting order (cricket)#Middle order|out of position]]; "with Morris and Barnes entrenched as openers" can be surmised from the previous sentence and can be removed. Possibly "Selected for the Invincibles tour, he performed reasonably well in the non-international matches, but batted out of position during the first two Tests. Brown struggled and was dropped from the Test team, never to return."
  • ...controversial run out by Indian left arm orthodox spinner Vinoo Mankad in the Second Test - can the link to left arm orthodox spinner be shortened or removed? A piped link to [[[[left arm orthodox spin|spinner]] - his actual bowling style has no bearing on the sentence (although being a spinner obviously helped the dismissal) and is getting in the way.
I've changed all of these, or Dweller has compeltely rewiorded them so that it isnt relevant anymore. As for the mdash, it's just a personal preference that I tend to use more than colons. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 06:42, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No problem.–MDCollins (talk) 08:39, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Shouldn't 'First Test', 'Second Test', 'Third Test' read 'first, second, third Test etc.? (It's what I've always done, but can't see anything in the WP:CRIC style guide.
See below. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "When he was three" - "Aged three"?
Done. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • In 1929–30, Brown joined the Marrickville Cricket Club in Sydney Grade Cricket, but was unable to hold down a regular place - In 1929–30, Brown played Grade Cricket for Marrickville Cricket Club but was unable to hold down a regular place.
Done. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The piped link to XI in sports doesn't anchor properly, suggest you place "First XI" inside the link rather than just the number. [[11 (number)#In sports|First XI]]
  • Pre war cricket: link to first-class again.
Done. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The highlight of Brown's first season was 79 against South Australia, and 69 against Douglas Jardine's England.[4] - that looks like two highlights
Done. pluralised YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "who was displeased with Brown's poor communication with batting partners, while running between the wickets," - change ", while" to "when" to remove one of the commas.
Done. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He followed this with 205 in an opening stand - I know what an opening stand is, do others? Is partnership (cricket) linked anywhere?
Done. it is now. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC) [reply]
not sure. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OK, just stands out as all of the others only link to either the city or the ground (Lord's). I have often considered using the form [[Trent Bridge|Nottingham]], but I'm not sure how much support that would have.–MDCollins (talk) 08:39, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why was Ponsford unavailable for the second Test - was he injured? dropped?
Done. illness. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • made 72 and a duck respectively" - respectively is unnecessary here *unless you said "in the first and second innings", which of course is implied.
Done. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Done. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • sp scorinf
Done. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • netted him? Surely he "netted" 837 runs in a strong season, not the strong season "netted him" 837 runs.
Done. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wisden described him: which Wisden? John, the Almanack? You could leave it out and say "He was named as one of the Wisden Cricketers of the Year for his performances in 1938 and was described as a "cricketer of remarkable powers" who batted with "a charming skill, coolness, thoughtfulness and certainty"
Done. linked to WCA YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Done. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Miscellaneous:

  • I think that First Test, Second Test, Third Test should read first Test, second, third etc. I have had a look at the WP:CRIC style guide and it isn't mentioned (perhaps it should be) - I usually write it grammatically and it is what I usually see in printed media, but acknowledge there isn't a consistent format. - just have a think about it.
I always use caps, although I've noted that most others don't. I thought the media did use the caps. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OK, not a discussion that needs to be here really. I might bring it up at WT:CRIC to see if we can get some consistency in the style guide.–MDCollins (talk) 08:39, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Check that the first instance of important cricket terms are linked/or explained. Things like partnership, innings, carrying his bat, batting average, not out
  • The image captions should have full stops when a full sentence. There is an abbreviation to NSW which should be written out. One image (the cigarette card) contains material that should be in the prose not the caption.
Done. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Think that's enough to be going on with (also up to "Wisden cricketer of the year"). Oh, I have delinked the dates in the infobox template so you don't need to worry about that.

This is an extremely well written article, but I feel it could just do with another copy edit. I'm sure my support will follow really soon. Good work! –MDCollins (talk) 11:02, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm in the earlyish stages of a copyedit, but some good spots there. --Dweller (talk) 11:21, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support - all comments satisfactorily addressed, a very nice article to read. Just one more thought - the domestic dates in the infobox look a bit messy wrapping onto two lines. I think this came up before. I wonder if instead of implying the season, we use the years of the first/last matches for the club to reduce it to single years. Either that or amend the infobox column width to give room for the two-year links.–MDCollins (talk) 08:39, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support - I just couldn't wait any longer to comment on this. The previous cricket articles I've looked at have been very good, and I want to see how this compares to them. I'll start at Wisden Cricketer of the Year due to the previous reviews.

  • "Brown's form started to deteriorate in 1937-38, scoring only 400 runs at 36.36 for the season." I don't think "scoring" is the best transition possible after the comma. Something like "as he scored" would be better, though I'm sure you can improve on that.
Tweaked. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 06:42, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Typo in third paragraph of section: "scorinf".
Done. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Second World War and post-war career: Bill O'Reilly was linked in the previous section. Also three Sid Barnes links in the section.
Done. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mankad: "So that he could get a head start in the case that he attempted a run." I'm more used to seeing "in case he attempted a run", but I'm not sure if that's how it's said in Australia. I do think it's wordy at the moment.
Done. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Off the field: "In 1992, Brown was elected a life member of the Queensland Cricket Association and in 2000, was awarded the Medal of the Order of Australia for his services to cricket." Picky, but I would move the second comma before and in 2000.

All in all, another great cricket article. Giants2008 (17-14) 01:37, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments for now from Graham Colm

  • This sentence, Aged three, business failure hit the family, and they moved to Marrickville in inner Sydney, is illogical and sounds like the family was three years old.
  • Surely al those "upons" could be simply "on"? More later. Graham Colm Talk 10:32, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Bill_Brown_(cricketer)&oldid=1088824158"