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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Battle of Vrbanja Bridge/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 10 December 2020 [1].

Battle of Vrbanja Bridge edit

Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:31, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a small-scale skirmish between French UN peacekeepers and Bosnian Serb forces in Sarajevo in May 1995 in the middle of the UN hostage crisis. I usually steer away from Bosnian War articles because I am probably too close, having served there in 95-96 with the Brits, but this one, being French, seems at arm's length from my experience, although we did discuss it during pre-deployment training as it occurred just before we got there. Notably, the young captain that led the French assault is currently the French Chief of Defence Staff. Have at it! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:31, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review: pass edit

Formatting and consistency

Quality and coverage

  • All sources used appear to be good quality, reliable sources.
  • There are many additional newspaper sources that could be used, but scanning through some of the more prominent papers omitted, I can't see any significant details or opinions that have been missed.

As a frequent and trusted nominator, I have not carried out any spotchecks. Harrias (he/him) • talk 09:07, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look, Harrias, all done I reckon. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:45, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
All good from my side. Harrias (he/him) • talk 21:29, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review—pass edit

  • Images appear to be freely licensed (t · c) buidhe 17:18, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks as always, buidhe! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:00, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Review Support by Z1720 edit

Here's a prose review.

Background

  • prompting the Commander, Bosnia and Herzegovina Command, British Lieutenant General Rupert Smith I assume Smith's title was "Commander, Bosnia and Herzegovina Command" but I had to read this sentence a couple of times to figure that out. Can it be replaced with "Commander of Bosnia" or would that be inaccurate?
It was his title, but put "of" instead of the comma. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:25, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • EF-18A EF-18 is wikified but the A is not. The whole model name should be linked.
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:25, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Aftermath

  • As the UN RRF deployed in June and July, it became clear that the UN was moving towards a peace enforcement stance rather than a peacekeeping one, with the British sending artillery and an air-mobile brigade including attack helicopters, and the force not painting its vehicles white or wearing blue helmets, as was usual on UN missions. This is a long sentence and I would split it.
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:25, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • the VRS commander, General Ratko Mladić that... Comma after Mladic
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:25, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Alain Juppé and by Defence Minister Charles Millon Remove this "by"
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:25, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • On 30 August, at the commencement of NATO's Operation Deliberate Force, a combined air and ground campaign against the VRS, the UN RRF... The use of commas and asides in this sentence are confusing and I would restructure. Perhaps, "At the commencement of NATO's Operation Deliberate Force, a combined air and ground campaign against the VRS, the UN RRF fired 600 artillery rounds on VRS artillery positions around Sarajevo on 30 August. The UN RRF played an important part in ending the siege and in forcing the Bosnian Serbs to the negotiating table later that year."
Great suggestion. Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:25, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • In 2017, now Army General Lecointre, Was Lecointre made an Army General from this event? If not, I would just remove "now Army General" as it is trivia information that doesn't pertain to this article.
One of the reasons he became pre-eminent was this battle, and providing his rank now is pertinent information to his current role. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:25, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Those are my first round of comments. Please ping me when you are finished. Good luck! Z1720 (talk) 18:54, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

All done thus far, Z1720. Thanks for taking a look! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:25, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Prose, Round 2

  • I'm struggling with understanding how In 2017, Lecointre, now an army general, was appointed French Chief of the Defence Staff is relevant to this article. Was this battle cited by someone (the PM, scholars, etc?) as a reason he received this promotion in 2017? If so, a short blurb should be included in the lede and in the body of the article to clarify this.
The France 24 article make it clear he became recognised as a "hero" with the French Army because of this battle, obviously his fame contributed to him rising to the top of the French military. Do mean I need to state this explicitly? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:07, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • and the force did not painting its vehicles Change "painting" to "paint"
Mike fixed this when he did the c/e. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:07, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source Review

  • You have FREBAT4 all capitalised, but reference 1 only has the first letter capitalised. Any reason for this?
It was the standard acronym for all UN battalions in the former Yugoslavia, KENBAT (Kenya), BRITBAT etc. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:07, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • six protestors were shot on the bridge by Bosnian Serb snipers. Two women, Suada Dilberović and Olga Sučić, died as a result pg 221 of Ref 2 doesn't mention Sučić, nor could I verify how they died. What is used to verify this information?
Dropped this source, introduced Maksić and changed the content to match. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:15, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Vrbanja Bridge was located in no-man's-land between the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina (Armija Republike Bosne i Hercegovine; ARBiH) and the Army of Republika Srpska. I couldn't find mention of a "no-man's land" in the source. What in the source is used to verify this info?
Added ref and cited. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:58, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • prompting the Commander of Bosnia and Herzegovina Command, British Lieutenant General Rupert Smith, to request NATO air strikes against the VRS. Rupert Smith is not mentioned in the cited document (although there is a Leighton Smith.) What information from the source verifies the quoted statement? Are these "Smith"s the same people?
No they are not, one is a Brit, the other a Yank. Added an additional source to cover this. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:48, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • With bayonets fixed I couldn't find info in the sources that verified this. What is the sentence used for this statement? For the rest of the sentence, I verified the info in ref. 1 while some of the sentence's info is not in ref. 9 (like the soldier's name) so why is ref 9 cited here?
Cited the bayonets to the France 24 article. fn9 says that the French infantry platoon stormed back and recaptured one end of the bridge, which is a partial verification of "the French marines overran a bunker held by the VRS, at the cost of the life of one Frenchman, Private Jacky Humblot". We already know that there were bunkers at both ends of the bridge. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:07, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The UN hostages were released two days later ref 14 is used for this statement, but I couldn't verify it in the source. What did you use to verify this information?
Replaced and slightly reworded. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:33, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The other internet sources, as well as the Corwin book source, were also checked and no problems were detected. I could not find online copies of the other books, but I will keep looking. Please ping me when you are finished. Thanks! Z1720 (talk) 01:28, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I reckon I'm finished, Z1720. See what you think? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:58, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I support this article's promotion to FA. All my concerns have been addressed. Z1720 (talk) 14:51, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Hog Farm edit

I'll take a look at this. Hog Farm Bacon 23:42, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Do you speak French? That translation for the Biegala looks a little weird, and Google Translate suggests "The Day the French Peacekeepers Fought Back" for me. Hog Farm Bacon 23:45, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I only understand basic German and Serbo-Croatian. I'm not sure I did that translation, but mine says ""The day when the French peacekeepers rebelled" or possibly the last word might be "balked", but I'm happy to go with yours. Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:36, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "During the French assault, elements of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina (ARBiH) opened fire on the VRS-held observation posts, accidentally wounding one French hostage" - Not clear from the lead if ARBiH was acting independently or in concert with the peacekeepers
Clarified. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:36, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 2017, Lecointre, now an army general, was appointed French Chief of the Defence Staff" - Is this really particularly relevant to the lead?
Definitely, it was a defining incident in his career, and he is now the head of the French armed forces. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:36, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Be consistent with if you're designating times by am/pm or the 24-hour system.
Whoops. Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:36, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "About 05:20 on 27 May" - Is there a way to rephrase this? The current wording almost makes it sound like it's a different day, but it's really less than an hour after the sentry posts were taken, so it seems to me that calling out the day a second time isn't necessary
Quite right, deleted. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:36, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • UNPROFOR is never glossed in the body
Doh. Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:36, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "so that they would be harder to attack and so that it would be more difficult to take UN personnel hostage" - Nitpicky, but can this be rephrased to avoid two "so that"'s in the same sentence?
Trimmed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:36, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does Sandahl really belong in the infobox? The prose doesn't mention him taking a particularly active role in the fighting.
I figure he was the CO of the troops that were taken hostage and that did the assault, and that he must have given the orders for the operation even if he didn't do any fighting himself. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:36, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's it for the first pass. Hog Farm Bacon 05:20, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Hog Farm, all done thus far. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:36, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie edit

I've copyedited a bit; feel free to revert anything you disagree with.

  • The first paragraph has "It began after the VRS seized ..." followed by "Upon seizing the bridge, the VRS took...", which is a bit repetitive. I think you did it this way because the long clause in the middle means that ", and took ...", which would be a natural way to start the second sentence, is a little hard to parse. How about moving the location -- "crossing of the Miljacka river in Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina", to the first sentence? That might shorten the second sentence to the point where you could join it to the third without the repetition.
Great idea, see if what I've done is an improvement. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:26, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • the VRS took twelve French peacekeepers hostage, two of whom remained held at the bridge as human shields: suggest "were held" or "remained at the bridge, held" or "were kept at the bridge, held" -- it took me a moment to realize that "remained" without the comma didn't imply that the other ten were also held at the bridge for some period.
Tweaked, see what you think? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:26, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the first paragraph of the background should tell an uninformed reader which of the two combatants was the besieger and which the besieged.
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:26, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The French responded by sending a platoon...: Suggest qualifying "The French" since we've just talked about Chirac's reaction; perhaps "The French command in Bosnia" or whatever would be natural.
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:26, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • So the ARBiH snipers hit a French hostage but hit no VRS soldiers? No change needed if so, or if it's not known; just checking.
Yes, it wasn't helpful, but I doubt it is clear who shot who. In most cases during the siege, "sniper" is a euphemism for some guy with a rifle taking potshots at civilians. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:26, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The account of Amaru's death seems out of place chronologically; wouldn't it make more sense to mention it before we talk about the conclusion of the firefight?
Good point, fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:26, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • asked for a truce and under the threat of killing the French hostages seems an incongruous pairing; perhaps "negotiated" or "obtained" or "forced", rather than "asked"?
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:26, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The second French soldier held as hostage: suggest "held hostage at the bridge", since there were ten other hostages.
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:26, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The UN hostages were released two days later: all 377? Or 387, I guess, counting the additional ten French hostages?
There was actually a series of releases, and this was just the last one. I've reworded this since you looked at it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:26, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • At the commencement of NATO's Operation Deliberate Force, a combined air and ground campaign against the VRS, the UN RRF fired 600 artillery rounds on VRS artillery positions around Sarajevo on 30 August. It's a bit awkward to have the date so far from the thing it dates ("commencement"). How about "On 30 August, at the commencement..."?
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:26, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Anything in the sources about French public opinion or reaction?
Good point. I couldn't find anything about this battle specifically (that may be buried in some French newspaper), but found a source and added a para on French public opinion about military intervention in Bosnia and its relationship with French official policy. Will that do? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:26, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:37, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

All done I reckon, Mike. What do you think? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:26, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support. The fixes all look good. Concise, clearly written and informative. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:39, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Query for the coordinators edit

@WP:FAC coordinators: , this now has three supports (two of which are from non-Milhist members), image and source reviews. Can I please have a dispensation for a fresh nom once Yugoslav destroyer Ljubljana is promoted? Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:26, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sure Peacemaker67, go for it. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:10, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Pendright edit

Next in line - back soon! Pendright (talk) 00:08, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Looking forward to it! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:12, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Greetings PM! My comments here are minor; some might even border of the nitpicking side. Anyway, here they are.

Pendright (talk) 01:03, 4 December 2020 (UTC) Lead:[reply]

  • The Battle of Vrbanja Bridge was an armed confrontation which occurred on 27 May 1995 between United Nations (UN) peacekeepers from the French Army and elements of the Bosnian Serb Army of Republika Srpska (VRS) at the Vrbanja Bridge crossing of the Miljacka river in Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina, during the Bosnian War.
You night wish to breakup this long 53 word sentence. In any case, consider these changes to the sentence. ->
The Battle of Vrbanja Bridge was [the] an armed confrontation which occurred on 27 May 1995 between [the] United Nations (UN) peacekeepers[,] from the French Army[,] and elements of the Bosnian Serb Army of Republika Srpska (VRS) at the Vrbanja Bridge crossing of the Miljacka river in Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina, during the Bosnian War.
Broke up the sentence and added some punctuation. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:47, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The VRS seized [the] French-manned United Nations Protection Force
Consider adding [the] definite article.
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:47, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • A platoon of 30 French peacekeepers led by then-Captain François Lecointre subsequently re-captured the bridge with the support of 70 French infantrymen and direct fire from armoured vehicles.
"then-" and "subsequently" don't seem to add anything essential to the meaning of the sentence?
then- foreshadows the information that he is now an army general, removed "subsequently". Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:47, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • VRS casualties were four killed, three wounded and four captured. Following the battle, VRS forces were observed to be less likely to engage French UN peacekeepers deployed in the city.
  • VRS -> here the abbreviation is not preceded by the definite article, but it is previously?
It varies depending on how specific I am being. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:47, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Background:

  • Vrbanja Bridge was located in no-man's-land between the besieged Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina (Armija Republike Bosne i Hercegovine; ARBiH) and the surrounding Army of Republika Srpska (Vojska Republike Srpske; VRS) during the 1992–1996 Siege of Sarajevo in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
  • To be consistent, add the definite article to begin the sentence.
Sure. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:47, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Semicolon after Hercegovine -> For what it's worth, a comma is generally used in this situation.
OK. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:47, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Consider a comma between ARBiH & and.
I think I've done this. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:47, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Semicolon after Republike Srpske -> same as above?
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:47, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • In March 1995, while the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) was planning a new strategy in support of [the] United Nations (UN) peacekeeping
in support of [the] United Nations (UN)
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:47, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Of the UN hostages taken by the Bosnian Serbs, 92 were French.
Would the ethnicity of the remainder be of interet to readers?
Maybe, but they were of a lot of nationalities, there were dozens of countries in UNPROFOR. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:47, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

French:

  • The first evidence the French UN troops received that something was wrong at [the] Vrbanja Bridge
Add [the] definite article as above
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:47, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • About 05:20, [the] company commander[,] Captain François Lecointre, unable to make radio contact with the posts,
(a) Add [the] definite article as above (b) Add a comma after commander to set it off.
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:47, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Aftermath:

  • as were the four VRS soldiers captured at [the] Vrbanja Bridge
add [the] definie artile as above
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:47, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • On 30 August, at the commencement of NATO's Operation Deliberate Force, a combined air and ground campaign against the VRS, the UN RRF fired 600 artillery rounds on VRS artillery positions around Sarajevo.
(a) Change the "a" to "the. (b) The first clause does not transistion well into the second one?
Not sure what you mean, artillery fire is part of the ground campaign? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:47, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Following the battle, [the] VRS forces were observed to be less likely to engage [the] French UN peacekeepers deployed in the city.
Add [the] definite articles
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:47, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Finished - Pendright (talk) 01:03, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I reckon I've got all of these Pendright, just wasn't sure about one or two. Thanks as always! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:47, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Peacemaker67: In the interest of time, I’ve made two copyedits to clear up the items to which (I think) you refer. Please feel free to undo or substitute. In any event, consider this my support for the nomination. Regards! Pendright (talk) 16:52, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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