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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Battle of Raymond/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 19 June 2022 [1].

Battle of Raymond edit

Nominator(s): Hog Farm Talk 14:31, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

After two straight FACs of Missouri 1864, it's now Mississippi 1863. General Grant is moving eastwards into Mississippi to attack Vicksburg, when a third of his army runs into a single Confederate brigade outside Raymond. The battle is fought in woods, and spirals out of control with neither commander able to exercise a whole lot of command. The Union's numerical mismatch eventually forces the Confederates back, but the battle convinces Grant to drive the Confederates out of Jackson before taking on Vicksburg. Hog Farm Talk 14:31, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Image review and source review—pass per ACR (t · c) buidhe 02:26, 28 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild edit

I supported this two days ago at ACR, having assessed it to FAC standard. So I may as well recuse and see if I can find anything further to niggle at. Gog the Mild ( talk) 14:01, 28 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Infobox: "near" - upper case initial letter.
    • Done
  • I assume that "Gregg's brigade" has a lower case b?
  • "The strategically important city of Vicksburg, Mississippi, was still in Confederate hands". This seems to me to beg for an explanation of what this meant. ', thus preventing through navigation by military or commercial vessels' or similar, perhaps? (Otherwise the canal bit doesn't really make sense.)
    • I've clarified - it was not only the linchpin that held the eastern and western halves of the CSA together, but it also was a strong defensive position commanding the river.
  • "In late November, Union infantry commanded by". A company? A whole battalion? Maybe something like 'a union army of some 40,000 men [or whatever] ...'?
  • "Grant's men drove inland". Again some idea of numbers, and possibly for the Confederates, may be helpful to a reader.
    • Added (24,000 for Grant, 8,000 for the CSA under Bowen)

More to follow. Gog the Mild ( talk) 18:23, 28 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Not wild about "back side" rather than 'reverse slope', but it's your call.
    • Changed, as it's a bit colloquial.
  • "some high ground northeast of the brigade over Fourteenmile Creek." Should that be 'bridge'?
    • Good spot. Fixed
  • "Union Brigadier General John E. Smith's five-regiment brigade of Logan's division (about 6,500 men)". This reads to me as if the brigade were 6,500 strong. Is that what is meant?
    • The figure is for Logan's division as a whole. Clarified. Hog Farm Talk 21:39, 30 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "to not enter the battle until after the 50th Tennessee had entered the fighting." "... enter the ... entered the ..." And again in the next sentence.
    • Rephrased
  • "McPherson expected that Sherman might arrive". William T. Sherman? This suggestion comes a bit from nowhere. Why might McPherson think that? Perhaps add something in Prelude?
    • I've removed this. Smith is the only of the sources to mention this, from skimming the appropriate section of Smith again I can find no indication why McPherson would have expected this, and Sherman clearly didn't show up. Since it doesn't appear elsewhere, not even in Grabau's highly detailed monograph, I see no reason why it is significant enough to be included.
  • "closer to Sherman's position." Should 'expected' or 'anticipated' or something be added?
    • See response above
  • "three percent of McPherson's force, while Gregg lost about 16 percent".
    • Spelled both out (I think that's what needs done here?)
  • "McClernand's men had also encountered part of Pemberton's force during the battle at Raymond." I don't recall this being mentioned during the account of the battle.
    • A classic example of me trying to say one thing and ending up writing another. McClernand's men skirmished with Pemberton's Confederates in a completely different area at the same time as the fighting at Raymond. Hog Farm Talk 21:39, 30 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Assessment: the opinions of academics should be expressed in the present tense. Eg 'Bearss describes' and 'Miller also states' etc. See MOS:TENSE.
    • I very badly misread your comment in the ACR on this matter - I think I've caught all of them
  • "leaving tactical decisions to lower commanders." Optional: "lower" → 'junior'.
    • Done
  • "The Battle of Raymond is one of 16 American Civil War battle sites studied by the Civil War Sites Advisory Commission (CWSAC)." Just checking whether "is" → 'was'?
    • Yes, should probably be "was" because the CWSAC hasn't issued a report in awhile that I'm aware of. More concerningly, this clause was missing an "is Mississippi" (the total nationwide CWSAC site count is well over 300 IIRC) Hog Farm Talk 20:36, 29 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild (talk) 19:49, 29 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Mike Christie edit

  • "near the junction of the roads to Utica and Port Gibson": as far as I can tell from the map in the article, the same road goes to both.
    • Going to have to dig into this. Bearss 2007 says this with no map, Bearss 1998 uses an overlay of a modern topographic map which isn't helpful. No maps in Ballard or Miller. Grabau 2001's maps show the Utica Road and the Auburn Road. IIRC Smith has decent maps so I'll check them as well. Hog Farm Talk 14:15, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Just the one question above. The excellent map really helped me understand the sequence of events, though since Gallatin isn't on it I did have to refer to Google maps to figure out which road was the Gallatin road. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:06, 13 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Mike Christie: - I think the reference to Port Gibson and Utica here is probably correct, based off of a quotation in Smith p. 72 - "The Utica Road ran south from Raymond, a second road bisected the Utica artery about one-half mile behind Gregg's position and ran southwest to Port Gibson, and yet a third dirt thoroughfare angled off the main road to the southeast toward Gallatin". I think the combined weight of Smith and Bearss here is better than the reference to "Auburn Road" in the map in Grabau. If you're wondering why the deployments in the sentence in question in the article don't match up to what Smith describes here, Smith is referring to an earlier alignment than Bearss. Hog Farm Talk 22:41, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
OK -- I would say the map is simply not showing the exact roads being described, but that's OK -- so long as the article is correct. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:11, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Image review by Adam Cuerden edit

Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.8% of all FPs 18:24, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Adam Cuerden Technically the FAC already had an image review. Not sure about the sign. For some reason I thought signage was always OK per US freedom of panorama rules, although quite possibly I'm wrong. (t · c) buidhe 18:42, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
My apologies for stepping on your toes. This isn't exactly standard signage, but I can't see any reason it wouldn't be US Federal Government so can't see why it would matter. U.S. Freedom of Panorama rules are not my subject of expertise, but commons:Commons:Copyright_rules_by_territory/United_States#Artworks_and_sculptures doesn't indicate that's true about signs. Also, the first point is probably worth discussing. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.8% of all FPs 19:06, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As to #1, I agree, but am quite busy with work for another day or to, so I won't be able to pull the new file immediately. Adam Cuerden - Do you know how to search Google for an image for the #2 item? Google seems to have taken the method I formerly used away from the right-click toolbar. Hog Farm Talk 23:19, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've tried reverse image searches, but it's not coming up. It might have been pulled, or it might be buried in an archive deep enough that Google can't find it, or, most likely (especially given it looks like it was made in MS Paint) it was a temporary document that got replaced. Not really a problem, just... not ideal. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.8% of all FPs 02:32, 27 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I've added an image of General McPherson, which is from the National Portrait Gallery and well out of copyright. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.9% of all FPs 19:00, 29 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

support by Pendright edit

Lead:

  • Initial attempts to capture the strategically important Mississippi River city of Vicksburg failed.
Initial attempts by whom?
Union. Added
  • The Confederate commander of Vicksburg, Lieutenant General John C. Pemberton ordered Brigadier General John Gregg and his 3,000 to 4,000-strong brigade from Jackson to Raymond.
Add a comma after Pemberton.
Added

Background:

  • During the beginning of the American Civil War, Union military leadership developed the Anaconda Plan, a strategy for defeating the Confederate States of America that placed great importance on controlling the Mississippi River.[1]
  • During the begining or "at" the begining?
  • Changed to "Early in the ..."
  • a strategy -> "as" a strategy
  • I think it works better in AmEng without the "as"
  • The stratagy was to control the Mississippi River and thus defeat the Confederate States- wasn't it? In which case, it should be so stated.
  • There were other components (blockading the coastline of the Gulf of Mexico and the Atlantic Seaboard was just as important) so I prefer the current phrasing
<>How about something like this: Early in the American Civil War, Union military leadership developed the Anaconda Plan that was a strategy to defeat the Confederate States of America; a significant component of the plan placed great importance on controlling the Mississippi River. Pendright (talk) 22:10, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
How about "Early in the American Civil War, Union military leadership developed the Anaconda Plan that was a strategy to defeat the Confederate States of America; a significant component of which was controlling the Mississippi River"? Hog Farm Talk 19:36, 4 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
<><> Great! Pendright (talk) 22:27, 4 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The strategically important city of Vicksburg, Mississippi, was still in Confederate hands, serving as both a strong defensive position commanding the river and a linchpin between the two halves of the Confederacy.
  • Add by before commanding
  • Done
  • a linchpin -> "the" linchpin
  • Done

<>The word attempt appears four times in the first paragraph of this section?

I've rephrased several of them out

Beginning of Grant's campaign:

  • Some of these included revisiting the 1862 canal attempt, [by] cutting a canal [in the river] near Lake Providence, Louisiana, and then navigating [it] through [several] bayous to bypass Vicksburg.
Consider the above changes
I've done something a bit different, as I don't think it was clear enough that these are three separate list items
<><>Suggestions - new sentence: In early 1863, Grant planned further operations against Vicksburg. Some of these included revisiting the 1862 canal attempt, a separate plan to cut a canal near Lake Providence, Louisiana, and attempts to navigate through bayous to bypass Vicksburg.
  • some of these "plans"
  • Done
  • revisiting the canal "site" attempt; its purpose?
  • The purpose is described up in 1862, I've added the word "site"
  • a separate plan -> a "new" plan to cut a canal "into the Mississi River" near Lake...
  • Done
  • Done
  • By March 29, these alternatives were abandoned and Grant was left with a choice between attacking Vicksburg from directly across the river, pulling back to Memphis and then attacking overland from the north, or marching south on the Louisiana side of the river and then crossing the river below the city.
  • "these alternatives were abandoned" -> by whom?
  • By Grant. Added
  • "a choice" -> should it be "the" choices?
  • Rephrased
  • Could replace 2nd "the river" with it?
  • Done
  • Attacking [the enemy from] across the river [Grant could] would have risked heavy casualties, [but]
and pulling [his men] back to Memphis could [have been] be interpreted as a retreat [and] ,which would be politically disastrous.
Consider this or someting like it?
Done
  • On April 29, Union Navy ships bombarded Confederate river batteries at Grand Gulf in preparation for a crossing, but did not silence the position.
but "they" did not...
Done
  • Grant could either move north towards Vicksburg, or head east and later turn to the west and attack Vicksburg from that direction.
from "this" direction
Done

Gregg's approach to Raymond:

  • Hiram Bledsoe's Missouri Battery and its three cannons was positioned with the 1st Tennessee Battalion and had orders to fire on any attempts to cross the bridge over the creek on the Utica Road.
  • its three cannons "was" or were positioned?
  • I believe "Hiram Bledsoe's Missouri Battery" is the subject if I recall high school English correctly so it should be "was"? I may be wrong.
<><> was it is - Pendright (talk) 23:01, 4 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • any attempts by whom?
  • Clarified
  • A 30-odd word sentence w/o a pause?
  • Split
  • The 41st Tennessee Infantry Regiment was held in reserve about 0.5 miles (800 m) behind the 3d Tennessee, near Raymond's cemetery.
which was near the Raymond cenetery.
Done

More to come - Pendright (talk) 22:09, 29 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments continued - Pendright (talk) 19:11, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Opening shots:

  • Smoke from the firing clouded the air and reduced the effectiveness of the artillery.[39
Whose artillery?
Everyone's. Clarified
  • At around 09:00, McPherson realized that the Confederates in front of his force represented more than just skirmishers, and began deploying for battle.
and "he" began
Done
  • The Union line began to buckle, but was rallied by division commander Major General John A. Logan.[49][50]
  • but "it" was rallied
Done
  • by "the" division commander
Done
  • Gregg brought the 41st Tennessee up from [the] reserve, but [he] did not scout the Union line , and was thus uninformed of the true Union strength.[43]
Consider the above changes
Went with something similar
<><>How about this: Gregg brought the 41st Tennessee up from the reserve, but [he] did not have the Union line scouted and was thus uninformed of [its] the true Union strength.[43] Pendright (talk) 18:41, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Hog Farm Talk 02:04, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Chaotic escalation:

  • A third Union brigade, under the command of Brigadier General John D. Stevenson, had held back in the rear because of dust clouds kicked up by Smith's brigade.
Because of modifies verbs ->due to modifies nouns (dust).
Done
  • At this point in the fighting, the lines had realigned so that the Union troops held the 125 yards (114 m) of the creek east of the bridge and fired north, while on the other side of a curve in the creek, the Confederates With the latter unit not in position, the 3rd Tennessee's flank was exposed to fire from the 31st Illinois Infantry Regiment.[26][62]
A 60 plus word sentence - consider breaking it up.
Split
<>Well done! Pendright (talk) 19:00, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • At 13:30, a brigade from Union Brigadier General Marcellus M. Crocker's division, commanded by Colonel John B. Sanborn, arrived on the field and moved to support Logan's left.[37]
left "flank".
Done
  • The 50th Tennessee and the 10th and 30th Tennessee (Consolidated) prepared to advance together, but paused to await further orders.
but "they" paused to...
Done
  • The men of the 50th Tennessee noticed the sound of heavy fighting to their right, and began to take fire from that direction.[65]
  • noticed or "heard" the sound?
  • Went with "heard"
  • "they" began
  • Done
  • "this" direction
  • Done
  • Having either been ordered by Gregg to move to the center of the line in order to shore up the exposed flank of the 3rd Tennessee,[66] or driven by Union troops towards that position, the 10th and 30th Tennessee (Consolidated) moved to a point in the line near where the 3rd Tennessee was fighting Smith's men.[67]
A 50 plus word sentence - consider breaking it up.
I can't think of a good spot to split this one.
<><>Rephrasing would benefit the sentence. My comments and the previous sentence might be helpful in doing so?
  • Who was being ordered by Gregg?
  • I've moved the subject of the sentence to the beginning to clarify this
  • Drop "in order"
  • Removed
  • The word "to" appears three times early in the sentence?
  • Down to one I believe
  • Who was driven by Union troops towards "this" position? Pendright (talk) 23:08, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I hope it's clearer now

Union breakthrough:

  • Gregg did not know that his left flank was held by the 50th Tennessee, and ordered the 41st Tennessee in that direction.
and "he" ordered
Done
in "this" direction
Done
  • Gregg determined that a retreat was necessary, and ordered the 1st Tennessee Battalion to feign an attack against Crocker's men, covering the withdrawal of the spent 7th Texas and 3rd Tennessee.[72]
and "he" ordered
Done
  • The 10th and 30th Tennessee (Consolidated) began to withdraw on its own, [but] then [it] attacked a Union regiment from Ohio, only to be driven back by additional Union forces.[72]
Consider the above suggestions
Done
  • Six companies of the 3rd Kentucky Mounted Infantry Regiment arrived on the field unexpectedly, and helped cover the retreat.
and "they" helped...
Done
  • Fighting ended around 16:00,[78] and Union soldiers entered Raymond, where they found and consumed a meal of fried chicken and lemonade that area women had prepared for Gregg's men, expecting a Confederate victory.
  • Drop the comma after Ra6mond
  • Done
  • Add "each" after they
  • Not done, as this would imply that every single soldier got fried chicken and lemonade, which wasn't the case
  • Anne Martin, a civilian resident of Raymond, reported that the Union soldiers occupying the town looted her house and wrote a letter to a family member stating that she had heard sounds of similar destruction from elsewhere in the town.[80]
  • Add a comma after house
  • Done
  • Add "she" between and & wrote
  • Done

Aftermath:

  • The former figure was given by the historians Shelby Foote and Michael B. Ballard and the writer Winston Groom;[20][27][82] in one work, Ed Bearss gave the total as 442 with a breakdown of 66 killed, 339 wounded, and 37 missing,[83] although he also supported the 446 figure in a different work.
The "previous" figuire
Note done; the use of former points back to the 442 number in "Reports of Union casualties vary between 442 and 446." and I'm worried that "previous" could also be read to mean 446
  • Confederate losses are reported as either 514, with a breakdown of 72 killed, 252 wounded, and 190 missing,[83][20] or 515, with the extra loss being another man killed.[81][84]
  • "were" reported
  • Done
  • Drop the commas after wounded & 515
  • Removed
  • He also stated that it is likely that [the] exact [number of] casualties suffered during the battle will never be known.[78]
Consider the above changes
Done
  • The fight at Raymond demonstrated to Grant that the Confederate force in Jackson was stronger than he had believed, leading him to decide that the Confederate forces there must be neutralized in order to be able to attack Vicksburg without the risk of being caught between two Confederate armies.[86]
In the first instane "force" is singular, in the secibd it is pural
Rephrased
  • On May 14, the Union army attacked Jackson.
May 14, 186?
It's still 1863. I've been told in the past not to re-introduce the year if it hasn't changed, and I don't think the context of this section allows for Grant to wait around a year so I don't think it's that unclear
  • On May 16, Pemberton's men were defeated at the Battle of Champion Hill, and after a defeat in a rearguard action at the Battle of Big Black River Bridge the next day, withdrew into the Vicksburg defenses.[91][92]
Replace the last comma with "they"
Done
  • Supplies within the city eventually ran low, and with no hope of escape, Pemberton surrendered the city and his army on July 4, ending the siege of Vicksburg.
  • Drop the comma after escape
  • Done
  • Surrendered to whom
  • Added (Grant)

Assessment:

  • Smith writes that "McPherson did not earn high marks for the handling of his corps" and criticizes him for allowing the Confederates to have the initiative for most of the fighting and for failing to properly coordinate his troop*Bearss also criticizes Gregg for being too aggressive and failing to ascertain the strength of the force he was facing.[94]
"criticizes him for allowing the Confederates to have the initiative for most of the fighting and..." ->This phrase seems unclear, at least to me?
Added "tactical" before initiative, does this make is clearer that the meaning is that McPherson was essentially letting Gregg dictate what was going on in the battle

Battlefield preservation:

  • The site of the battle was listed on the National Register of Historic Places (NRHP) on January 13, 1972 as the Raymond Battlefield Site.[96]
Add a comma after 1972
Done
  • The 1971 NRHP application form stated that the battlefield had been altered, but was still in good condition.[97]
but "it" was still in...
Went with "that it was still in ..."
  • At that time, the site had both publicly- and privately-owned elements and had restricted access.
Why the hyphen
Not sure. Removed
  • In December 2020, the Mississippi Department of Archives and History received a grant to purchase 43.71 acres (17.69 ha) at Raymond.
Purpose of the grant?
Clarified

Finished - Pendright (talk) 19:11, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Pendright: - Thanks for the review! I've left a couple replies but almost all of these have been actioned. Hog Farm Talk 19:37, 4 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for responding to all of my comments. However,I have left a few more responses to some of yours. Pendright (talk) 00:47, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Pendright: - I've implemented all but one half of one of the coments. Hog Farm Talk 02:14, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Hog Farm: Supporting - Pendright (talk) 02:43, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@WP:FAC coordinators: - with this one progressing nicely, may I have a disposition for a second nomination? Hog Farm Talk 13:06, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You may. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:16, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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