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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Archived nominations/December 2020

< Wikipedia:Featured article candidates‎ | Archived nominations
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 31 December 2020 [1].

Steven Gerrard edit

Nominator(s): REDMAN 2019 (talk) 17:49, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Steven Gerrard is a major footballer and quite possible the best Liverpool player of the 21st century. I have already brought this to GA status and feel that it could pass FA criteria to. I am open to suggestions of improvement to meet the criteria. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 17:49, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't own the books in refs 1 and 5, but apart from that I have access to all the sources. Hope that won't be a problem for any reviewers. Cheers! REDMAN 2019 (talk) 15:28, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

REDMAN, you have limited contributions to this article; please see the WP:FAC instructions. Did you seek clearance from @Saintandy7 and Mattythewhite: before initiating this FAC? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:32, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]


Drive-by-comments edit

  • After reading the lead section, I think it could do with some further refinement. Perhaps make it more neutral (for instance, there's four uses of the word "greatest").
  • The sentence, "In 2009, Zinedine Zidane and Pelé said that they considered Gerrard to be the best footballer in the world.", doesn't need to be in the lead either.
  • I couldn't find the source to support this in the article: "Chosen by The Daily Telegraph as Liverpool's greatest ever player"
  • You mention the The Gerrard Final in the lead, but it's not in the rest of the article
  • The sentence about retirement could be integrated, eg. "After retiring from from international football in 2014, Gerrard became a coach.."

Thanks, LM150 14:25, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done all of the above.

Image review

  • There is some sandwiching in the Style of play section
Done
  • Suggest adding alt text
Any specific images, or just all of them? REDMAN 2019 (talk) 19:06, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
All. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:15, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 14:45, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done, except for two instances where it is necessary. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 19:04, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It isn't necessary in those cases - you can use |upright= instead. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:15, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 14:14, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@LM150 and Nikkimaria: Thanks for your comments. I have addressed them or replied. Any further comments or corrections would be welcome. (Sorry for my delay in answering, I have had a busy week.) REDMAN 2019 (talk) 19:08, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please read the FAC instructions and remove the “Done” templates; they cause a template limits problem that affects the entire page, as well as the FAC archives. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:51, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, thanks for the tip. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 14:12, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note edit

Hi, with little commentary after three weeks, and none in the past ten days, I don't think this nom is going anywhere fast so I'll be archiving it shortly. Given that lack of commentary I'm prepared to waive the usual two weeks before a re-nom if you so choose to do that but per FAC instructions I'd recommend trying Peer Review first. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:02, 31 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 30 December 2020 [2].

Begotten (film) edit

Nominator(s): Paleface Jack (talk) 19:14, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the 1989 American experimental horror film Begotten, it had previously failed an FA nomination due to sourcing and copy-editing issues and a year was taken to assure that all the issues were resolved through thew help of various editors, and a peer review evaluation, I believe it is now ready for resubmission.Paleface Jack (talk) 19:14, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Peer review/Begotten (film)/archive1 SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:23, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review by Ealdgyth edit

Film Box office publication, listed as reliable according to WP Film.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:47, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Online publication previously in-print, critics and staff are considered reliable and reviews are listed on Rotten Tomatoes (which only acknowledges professional reviewers).--Paleface Jack (talk) 20:16, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Verifiable online media resource verified by Metacritic and Rotten Tomatoes.--Paleface Jack (talk) 20:16, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Official curative website for film screenings and film festivals.--Paleface Jack (talk) 20:16, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Verifiable Secondary source, with news, and events related to the music industry.--Paleface Jack (talk) 20:16, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Author Blackwelder is a reliable and verified by other online publications like Rotten Tomatoes.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:47, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Interview and website by verified professional film critic Walter Chaw (Verified by Rotten Tomatoes, which only acknowledges professional reviewers).--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:47, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nightmare on Film Street is officially a part of Bloody Disgusting with more information rooted with that organization.--Paleface Jack (talk) 20:16, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Online media news/editorial produced by Arthur L. Carter Journalism Institute.--Paleface Jack (talk) 20:16, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Previously founded as a blog, is now a celebrated online magazine that has been recognized by various other legitimate publications.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:47, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
News, and Information recognized by major publications as reliable.--Paleface Jack (talk) 20:16, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
On of the oldest and widely circulated magazines on media, first published in 1902.--Paleface Jack (talk) 20:16, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The Youtube citation is an archived podcast, I will replace that with a better sourced archive.--Paleface Jack (talk) 20:16, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Educational/scholarly resource.--Paleface Jack (talk) 20:16, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Reliable, and referenced in books, and news outlets.--Paleface Jack (talk) 20:16, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Will Remove, even if it was reliable it was never archived.--Paleface Jack (talk) 20:16, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Listed as a reliable source, with staff and editorials.--Paleface Jack (talk) 20:16, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Dennis Schwartz is a reliable reviewer whose film reviews are officially listed on Rotten tomatoes as reliable.--Paleface Jack (talk) 20:16, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are also a lot of issues with formatting of references - sometimes newspapers are italicized, sometimes not. Same with magazines. Suggest a long hard look at them and make it consistent.
  • Ealdgyth (talk) 21:47, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the input, I will do some digging on the sources I have not already verified and I will start fixing the formatting issues.--Paleface Jack (talk) 20:16, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment edit

More than four weeks in and no supports nor any sort of regular review comment. This will time out in two or three days if it doesn't attract more interest. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:04, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunate, but I agree. Reviews are not adequate.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:47, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I think we may as well close this sooner rather than later given the circumstances. Now because there has only been a (welcomely thorough) source review, I'd generally waive the usual two-week break before another nom but naturally we'd want to see all of these points resolved before that takes place anyway; suggest you engage with Ealdgyth on the article talk page to accomplish that. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:34, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 30 December 2020 [3].

Paranthropus robustus edit

Nominator(s):   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  20:24, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about one of the first australopithecine species every described. It failed the last time because after nearly a month it only received an image review.   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  20:24, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Per MOS:ACCIM The images in the article should have alt text added. Also, text should not refer to images as "left" or "right". Username6892 (Peer Review) 22:41, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
since when? This happens all the time and it's very useful to specify which is on which side. Also, is alt text a requirement anymore?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:28, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I (mis)interpreted the point about left and right to include all text (including captions). I've crossed it out accordingly. As for the alt text, it says all undecorative images should have alt text, so I think such text should be added before FA (I had a reviewer at GAN tell me to add alt text, though they noted lots of MOS issues). Username6892 (Peer Review) 02:37, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
added   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  21:18, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Funk edit

  • Quitea difficult subject, which is probably why reviewers have been wary, but I'll have a look soon. FunkMonk (talk) 08:54, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are a good deal of duplinks, which can be highlighted with the usual script.[4]
fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:53, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Section names should make it clear what they are about. But I can't for the life of me figure out what "setting" means without looking at the text, but I should be able to.
changed to "Fossil-bearing deposits"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:53, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Reconstruction of OH 5, the holotype specimen of P. boisei" This caption doesn't establish the relevance of the image to the text.
"OH 5 (reconstruction above) was made the holotype specimen of the 2nd Paranthropus species P. boisei."   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:53, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Hamadryas baboon troop at Dierenpark Emmen with several males" Likewise.
"P. robustus could have lived in multi-male groups like Hamadryas baboons (above troop at Dierenpark Emmen)"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:53, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a distal right humerus (at the elbow joint), a proximal right ulna (also elbow)" Not sure those glosses are precise and understandable, you could also give regular directions rather than technical ones, for example "lower part of the right humerus (upper arm bone)" or similar.
"Broom recovered a distal right humerus (the lower part of the upper arm bone), a proximal right ulna (upper part of a lower arm bone)"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  22:22, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Baboon could be linked.
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  22:22, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "out of which they and modern humans descended from" - "From which they and modern humans" would sound less clunky.
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  22:22, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "(quite controversially at the time)" Does the source say this?
added ref   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  22:22, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A few weeks later, Broom recovered" From where?
added   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  22:22, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This scheme was widely criticised for being too liberal in demarcating species" You cite one 1954 source, how do you get "widely criticised"? By who?
It's effectively a literature review. I can't just stack sources which all independently say it's too liberal and then myself say it's "widely criticized", that would be OR   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:54, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
But you can give prominent examples. What exactly does the source say? FunkMonk (talk) 03:25, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  22:22, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "At this point in time, humans and ancestors" Even at that time all these species couldn't have been considered human ancestors, so rather humans and their earlier relatives?
Polygenism allowed all human fossils to be classified as human ancestors, which was big in the 30s, but I'm not sure in the 40s. I know around this time most taxonomists were starting to classify all modern humans into the same species/subspecies H. s. sapiens, which I'm guessing would've made polygenism unattainable (but not completely because it was still entertained up until the 90s that Java Man evolved into Australian Aborigines), so I'm changing it to "humans and allies"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  22:22, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "opinions of Jewish German anthropologist Franz Weidenreich" Why state his religion/ethnicity? All that is relevant here should be nationality.
Well the reason he was in China in the first place to study Chinese hominids was because he was a Jew fleeing Nazi Germany   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:54, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That is too circumstantial to be relevant here I'd say, but let's see what others think. FunkMonk (talk) 03:25, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have a hard time seeing why the Gigantopithecus paragraph is relevant here, seems it would belong in the Paranthropus genus article?
They did this when Paranthropus was monotypic. It connects to Robinson's whole story on P. robustus being massive   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:54, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "which they assigned to a new species aethiopicus" Add P. in front of the name so we are sure what genus you mean.
They didn't recognize Paranthropus as valid, so they actually assigned it to A. aethiopicus and ancestral to A. boisei. I wasn't sure what to do in this instance so I lopped off the genus name   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:54, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Then you should state that outright for context instead of kind of tap-dancing around it, I'd say. FunkMonk (talk) 03:25, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:21, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Now the baboon and tooth photos kind of clash, one could be left aligned to precent this.
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  22:23, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • A size comparison image would be good.
I mean, size estimates are pretty speculative in and of themselves, and are based on very few specimens as it is. Also, in order to do a size comparison, you'd need a silhouette, and the body proportions of this species are quite unclear   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:54, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "specimen fro Member 3" From?
fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:15, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reading the Fossil-bearing deposits section, it seems much of this would fit as a section under paleoecology? It is basically about what lived where and when, and alongside what, and it is a bit of a mouthful that early in the article where it is now.
moved   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:15, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The animals remains of Kromdraai" Animal remains?
fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:15, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the possibly the earliest record" One the too many.
fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:15, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The ear of the juvenile KB 6067" Ear bones? Ear would indicate pinnae.
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:15, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The first hominin specimen (G14018) was found by German palaeontologist Elisabeth Vrba in 1979, and the other two specimens were recovered in 1997 by respectively South African palaeoanthropologist Andre Keyser and excavator L. Dihasu." Why all these details when you don't give it for the earlier finds mentioned in the section?
they're already given in Research history   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:15, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "at the annual American Association of Physical Anthropologist" why do we need this detail here? You can be sure many of the other bones were also first announced at various conferences too.
removed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:15, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:15, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "So, the discoverers assigned it to Paranthropus species indeterminate rather than P. robustus." Oddly worded. Therefore would probably be a better start, and "to Paranthropus species indeterminate" would be more comprehensible as "to an indeterminate species of aranthropus".
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:15, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Three example family trees" Examples of?
that works too   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:15, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • You mention museums in some captions, in others not.
fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:15, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • You state in some captions if a cast is shown, but there are instances where you don't.
added   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:15, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is size the second section under anatomy? Seems odd that you start with skeletal elements (skull),, then you go to size, and then to the skeleton again. Would seem more logical to keep discussion of size separate from the skeleton, either before or after. I think it may even make most sense after you have described the skeleton completely, as the size estimate is based on those elements.
moved   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:15, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "slight prognathism (the face was not completely flat)" Or more specifically, the jaws jutted forwards?
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:27, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "well-defined sagittal crest on the midline" I'd add this was at the top of the skull.
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:27, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gracile could be linked.
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:27, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Upon species description, Broom estimated the fragmentary braincase of TM 1517 as 600 cc" Upon describing the species or such would be more understandable.
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:27, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "on 1 side" I think numerals should only be used for actual numbers rather than what you are using it for here, one side.
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:27, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "quite often artificially inflated brain size in early hominins" Any word on his motivation?
basically so people would think of them as a human ancestor if the brain size was bigger   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:27, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Should I add this?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:52, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Female DNH 7 (left) vs cast of male SK 48 (right)" Why vs? Are they competing somehow? Why not just "and"?
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:27, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Any more specimens we have images of that could be shown, or has Commons been exhausted?
that's all of them   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:27, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Chimpanzee could probably be linked.
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:27, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "are much more robust than other australopithecines" Than in.
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:27, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Explain transverse processes.
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:27, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bipedalism should be linked at first mentioned, now it is only in the torso section.
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:27, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is some oddity with the tenses under anatomy, where it is often present tense when you would assume it to be past tense. For example "The wrist joint has the same manoeuverability as that of modern humans rather than the greater flexion achieved by non-human apes, but the head of radius (the elbow) seems to have been quite capable of maintaining stability when the forearm is flexed like non-human apes." For some reason you go form present to past tense within a sentence.
fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:27, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Likewise, two adjacent sentences, different tenses: "The premolars are shaped like molars. P. robustus had a tall face".
fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:27, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The distal phalanges seem to be essentially humanlike." In what way? A big statement like this needs some explanation.
did not specify, I would assume they're not curved like in apes   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:27, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "seems to have habitually been placed in highly flexed positions" How is this known?
based on how badly the joint was worn down you can tell how much it was used   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:27, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That should be stated then. FunkMonk (talk) 02:50, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
added "based on the wearing patterns"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  20:30, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "same dimensions of that of" as that of?
fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:27, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The radius of P. robustus is the same as in Australopithecus species." And what does this mean? How do these differ from humans?
did not specify. The radius in Australopithecus is apelike, which would mean it's more curved   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:27, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Chimp is linked far below first mention. Also, it reads really weirdly with such an informal term among all hese scientific terms, as I've mentioend elsehwere.
Second opinion because I'm curious: what do people think of using chimp, rhino, hippo, etc. instead of chimpanzee, rhinoceros, hippopotamus?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  20:30, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I would personally go for the more formal "chimpanzee". --Jens Lallensack (talk) 21:11, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think chimp is comparable to those others, which are in much wider use use than cimp. For example, do any of the soruces used use that term? If not, I'm not sure why we should either. Also, our chimpanzee GA refers to it as "chimpanzee" throughout as well. FunkMonk (talk) 21:19, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "P. robustus sites are oddly dominated by small adults, which could be explained as heightened predation or mortality of the larger males of a group." Why not just by their average size being small, or for example there being more females for each male as in some other apes, or similar?
those are all the same statement. By being dominated by small adults, average size would have been small, and if they lived in a harem society then larger males would've had a much higher rate of eviction and would've had higher mortality rates such as by predation (which is increased when you're alone than in a troop). These are discussed in the Social structure section   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  20:30, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "scaled the dimensions of a modern human and an ape" What ape? Pretty vague considering their range.
He did 2 linear regressions of body weight vs femoral cross-sectional area of 1) all modern great apes including humans, and 2) just humans   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  20:30, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "comprises the sabertoothed cats Dinofelis and Megantereon, and the hyena Lycyaenops silberbergi. " Why full binomial for the last one and not all other species?
added spp.   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  20:30, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Subsequent researchers furthered this model that" The model? The idea that? Oddly worded now.
"Subsequent researchers reinforced this model studying the"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  20:30, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He also found the microwearing on 20 P. boisei molar specimens were indistinguishable" Found that?
fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  20:30, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "possible that the stone tools were reworked." Could be explained what this means.
"moved into the layer after the inhabitants had died"
  • In the paragrapgh about possible fire use, you don't state that it was maybe by this species outright. Do the sources make the direct conenction?
Brain doesn't make a definitive species attribution because though robustus is known from Member 3, Homo is assumed to have been present as well, though he makes it a big point that fire dates to before robustus went extinct   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  04:57, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The now-earliest claim of fire usage is 1.7 million years ago at Wonderwerk Cave, South Africa, made by South African archaeologist Peter Beaumont in 2011." But by this species?
No hominin fossils have been recovered from Wonderwerk, but we do have Acheulean artifacts so the authors specifically attributed the fire to H. ergaster. This is mainly in here because the part about Member 3 is no longer the earliest claimed evidence of fire   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  04:57, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the image captions can state what bones are shown. For example, it may not be visible to many readers that some of these are fragmentary skulls. So "Cast of SK 46" Would be "Cast of skull SK 46", for example.
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  20:30, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "P. robustus sites are oddly dominated by small adults, which could be explained as heightened predation or mortality of the larger males of a group." Isn't this better left for the Social structure section, where it is elaborated on anyway? Now it is both repetitive, and doesn't really fit into the otherwise descriptive anatomy section.
in Size changed to "Smaller adults thus seem to have been more common"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  20:30, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • It seems a bit odd that the Technology is the second section under Palaeobiology, given how vague the section is in attributing the discussed issues to this particular species. I think the sections following should be moved before it, because they are more directly relevant to this species.
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  20:30, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "much like savanna baboons" Link them? And if they are the same as the Hamadryas baboons mentioned in the caption, you should use the same term for both to avoid confusion. If they're not the same, you should use a photo of the former instead.
changed to "baboons which live in the savanna"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  20:30, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "flash the typically engorged canines" How can a tooth be engorged?
fixed "enlarged"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  20:30, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "is depository whereas the sides are resorptive" Explain these terms. You give soem examples afterwards, but they don't really explain what the terms themselves mean.
"is depository (so it grows) whereas the sides are resorptive (so they recede)"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  20:30, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "At early stages, the P. robustus jawbone is somewhat similar to that of modern humans, but the breadth grows in P. robustus, as to be expected from its incredible robustness in adulthood. By the time the first permanent molar erupts, the body of the mandible and the front jaw broaden, and the ramus of the mandible elongates, diverging from the modern human trajectory. Because the ramus is so tall, it is suggested that P. robustus experienced more anterior face rotation than modern humans and apes. Growth is most marked between the eruptions of the first and second permanent molars, most notably in terms of the distance from the back of the mouth to the front of the mouth, probably to make room for the massive postcanine teeth. Like humans, jaw robustness decreases with age, though it decreases slower in P. robustus." It seems odd all this is in present tense. The preceding and following text is past tense, too.
fixed
  • "gracile australopithecines" You should explain the distinction early in the article at first menrtion.
"The genus Paranthropus (otherwise known as "robust australopithecines", in contrast to the "gracile australopithecines")"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  20:30, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "same time as females, but continue growing for up to 5 or 6 years; and male mandrills complete dental development before females" I'm not sure this is a correct use of semicolon, should just be a comma, or full stop.
there'd be too many commas so it'd be difficult to identify which section is an interruptor; the semi-colon functions as a period but you're not finished with your sentence yet   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  20:30, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • When you reach the palaeobiology section, you are very inconsiostent in whether you name authors of studies or not. Should be consistent.
You mean I should replace things like "a 2006 study" with the names of the authors?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  20:30, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Either that, or remove all author credit after a certan section (like by the time you reach Palaeobiology), as long as it's consistent. FunkMonk (talk) 02:09, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:52, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • In some image captions you culd give more context to connect the images with the text. For example "SKX 11 tooth", how does this relate t the adjacent text? Is it a special tooth that says somehting about development?
no it's just a tooth. I thought it'd be nice to have a tooth picture since we're talking about teeth here   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  20:30, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "was reached approximately 11 years" At missing?
added   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  20:30, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "to maximise children born" To maximise the number of children born.
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  20:30, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and "estimates on gestation periods based on this rate and birth weight are useless." why this unusual logn wquote here instead of just paraphrasing as with eveyrthing else in the article?
it communicates very effectively how much he disagreed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  20:30, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "he reported neonate" Unfamiliar term to msot readers, link or rephrase.
changed to newborn   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  20:30, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and birth interval; and for humans all" again, I think this should be a comma rather than semicomma.
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  20:30, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "holes in enamel coverage" Covring? What does the source say?
It defines PEH as "PEH is characterized by multiple circular depression defects across a tooth crown"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:18, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the individual would have had to have also presented either alveolar resportion" that doesn't read well.
changed to just "would have"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:18, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Baboons in this region modern day" This reads oddly too.
"Modern day baboons in this region"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:18, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As an antipredator behaviour, baboons often associated themselves" Why past tense? Is it not true anymore?
fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:18, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Australopithecine bones may have accumulated in caves due to large carnivore activity, dragging in carcasses" Odd sentence structure between the parts before and after the comma.
fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:18, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "SK 54 skullcap" State its relevance to the adjacent text.
"SK 54 skullcap with two holes probably inflicted in a leopard attack"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:18, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "GDA-2 from Gondolin Cave" State what it is.
it already says earlier "...and a robust australopithecine 2nd molar (GDA-2)"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:18, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The extinction of P. robustus coincides with the Mid-Pleistocene Transition" Past tense wopuld be more fitting.
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:18, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "(though more likely 0.9 million years ago)" WHy more likely? The discussion of what may be the last known specimen is interesting.
The source says "Indeed, multiple lines of dating evidence point to a young age of Swartkrans Member 3, likely around 0.9 Ma, but possibly as young as 0.6 Ma". Basically they preferred to cite a study which used cosmogenic burial of quartz to date (one of many attempts to date Member 3), which got 1.05–0.87 mya with a point estimate of 0.96±0.09 mya. I should probably move that to the Fossil-bearing deposits section?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:18, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion of it could be moved there, yeah, but the mention of the last specimen fits well udner extinction. FunkMonk (talk) 23:44, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
added   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:52, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Homo possibly was able to survive due to the great geographical" Its greater?
fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:18, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "somewhere other than the Cradle of Humankind (Signor–Lipps effect)" This last part will mean little to most readers, explain.
It's already explained, it's just an alternative to saying "consequently, P. robustus possibly went extinct much more recently somewhere other than the Cradle of Humankind"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:18, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "However, it is argued that Paranthropus is an invalid grouping" I think we dicussed this at a GAN, but this makes it seem like that's the mainstream view. Something like "it has been argued" would make it seem less certain.
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:18, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and some of the largest molars with the thickest enamel of any known ape." As far as I can see, none of this is stated outside the intro?
because that only applies to P. boisei   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:18, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and the continual prolonging of dry cycles and subsequent retreat of such habitat." Shouldn't it be "possibly due to" instead of "and" here?
changed to "characterised by"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:18, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Changes look good. Would be good to get a solution to the Gigantopithecus undue weight and the chimp issue, as these have also been commented on by others. And then there are two other unresolved issues above it seems. FunkMonk (talk) 23:44, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review edit

  • As above, suggest adding alt text
My problem is that the alt text wouldn't be anymore descriptive than the caption (like they'd all read something like "a skull" or "a tooth")   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  21:39, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that's true in most cases. For example, an alt text could describe the location of the Cradle of Humankind, or note what component is represented in the holotype. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:53, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
added   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  21:18, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Cradle_of_Humankind_plan.jpg: what is the source for this map? Ditto File:Paranthropus_robustus_Africa.jpg
As I said in the last review, I would assume google maps. If you want, I can list the map here as a source, or upload the map from [5] which is CC-BY-4.0 (but highlights Rising Star Cave which P. robustus is not known from), or this map which is kinda pixelly. Just tell me which is most preferable   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  21:35, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'd suggest the second of those. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:53, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Is it alright that it's missing Swartkrans?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:35, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:DNH_7_Reconstruction.jpg: the review discussion for this image is weak.
Some reviews get more eyes than others, and this was definitely in the others category. I'm not sure what to do in this case, so I'll see what other paleontology people have to say about it, and I can always remove it   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  21:35, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. I would suggest removing by default, unless any weigh in in favour. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:53, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I guess we should signal more opinions needed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:35, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hominid restorations are very difficult and take almost forensic reconstruction skill to do, so yeah, the best would be to get a photo of a museum exhibit or restoration from a journal article. I think we have very few reviewers with such experience here that would be able to give qualified critique. FunkMonk (talk) 20:56, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Alright I took it down. The only forensic-level restorations of P. robustus I know of are on deviantart   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  02:02, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. I don't know why but my brain always automatically puts down sa   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  21:35, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator note edit

Nearly four weeks in and no supports. I shall add it to Urgents, but this needs further reviews very soon if it is not to time out. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:14, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Two weeks later and a wall of comments but with no declarations of support or opposition it feels more like a PR than a FAC. There still seems a way to go to achieve any consensus to promote so I'd like to put it to bed now and ask that further work take place away from FAC with discussion on the article talk page, that you engage these reviewers for a quick check once done, and then bring it back after the usual two-week wait. You can of course again ping the reviewers to comment at the next FAC. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:25, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Jens Lallensack edit

  • Can't promise I can finish it, but I will give it a go.
However much you can do is fine   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:45, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • However, it is argued that Paranthropus is an invalid grouping and synonymous with Australopithecus – "argued by some"? Otherwise I would assume that this is consensus.
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:45, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is "robust australopithecine" = Paranthropus? That should be clarified in the lead when the term comes up. Further down, there is also a "more robust australopithecine", so I guess this is yet another meaning?
Paranthropus are called the "robust australopithecines", whereas Australopithecus (if you exclude Paranthropus) and Kenyanthropus are called the "gracile australopithecines"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:45, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
And can we make that clear in the lead? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 17:21, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Robust australopithecines–as opposed to gracile australopithecines–are characterised by..."   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  15:50, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The brain volume of the specimen SK 1585 is estimated to have been 476 cc, and of DNH 155 about 450 cc. – Not very helpful for use in the lead, because difficult to compare. I mean, the average reader will learn nothing from this. This would be more useful in relation to body mass, e.g. as Encephalization quotient, and in comparison with relatives. Was it more or less intelligent?
added "for comparison, the brain volume of contemporary Homo varied from 500–900 cc"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:45, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • P. robustus seems to have consumed a high proportion of C4 savanna plants. In addition, P. robustus may have also consumed – suggest to replace the second "P. robustus" with "it".
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:45, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • more likely to be evicted indicated by higher male mortality – "as" missing?
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:45, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • recovered a distal right humerus – should be "distal end of a right humerus"? Similar formulations in the following sentences. Alternatively, you could just go with "the lower part of the right upper arm bone" and avoid the technical terms completely, or at least replace "distal" with "lower end".
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:45, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • which he assigned to the specimen. "to the same"?
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:45, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Broom considered all these species, which dated to the Pleistocene and were found in the same general vicinity (now called the "Cradle of Humankind"), – I would make a separate sentence of this side note, this sentence is otherwise difficult to read.
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:45, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • which was younger than the fossils from Kromdraai. They believed that the Swartkrans Paranthropus were reproductively isolated from Kromdraai Paranthropus and they eventually speciated – but did Broom know it was younger?
that's discussed in the Fossil-bearing deposits section   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:45, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, but is doesn't help with understanding this particular sentence when it is explained much later in the article. To be clear: "which was younger than the fossils from Kromdraai" – If Broom didn't know this, I think this part has to be removed or explained, otherwise it is confusing. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 17:21, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
He knew that the faunal remains from these 2 sites were different, and therefore that they were temporally spaced. He didn't know which was older and which was younger   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  15:50, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • By the 21st century, "P. crassidens" had more or less fallen out of use in favour of P. robustus. American palaeoanthropologist Frederick E. Grine is the primary proponent against synonymisation. – I would specify "synonymisation of the two species" for extra clarity.
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:45, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • He also believed that they both had a massive build, – who is "both"?
Paranthropus and Gigantopithecus   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:45, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
My point was that this does not become clear from the grammar and needs rewording in my opinion. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 17:21, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • (which he referred to as "H. africanus") and supposed cultural and hunting ability in the earliest human lineages – quite hard to follow. The reader needs to know that "H." is Homo, and that the mentioned "earliest human lineages" are part of "Homo". I wonder if people without substantial background can follow this.
All the reader needs to know is "earliest human lineages" excluded Paranthropus, and I've expanded it to "Homo africanus"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:38, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The sentence is not well-formulated, I think it is confusing, or at least ambiguous. He contrasted the massive build with cultural and hunting ability? This doesn't make sense to me. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 18:48, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"He also believed that they both had a massive build. In contrast, he reported a very small build for A. africanus (which he referred to as "Homo" africanus) and speculated it had some cultural and hunting abilities, being a member of the human lineage, which "paranthropines" lacked."   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  15:50, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • though it is unclear if this classification is completely sound. – and this was the latest opinion? The source is quite old?
I mean the name "Telanthropus" was used following that source, but not so much as a hard classification but moreso to indicate the specimen that was being discussed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:45, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I still don't understand; who doubted that this classification was not completely sound? If it was Tobias (1965), you would need to attribute that claim to that author directly I think. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 17:21, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  15:50, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Now, the – Avoid words like "now", "currently", and the like. This will be outdated in a few years. Better give the year.
If we find an even earlier one in South Africa, the article would have to be updated   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:45, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
See Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch. And wouldn't it be much more precise and helpful to just provide the exact year? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 08:36, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No, because if we're in the year 2025, and you read "as of 2020, this was the earliest specimen," this would imply the article is out of date and an even earlier specimen has since been found   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:38, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it implies that the article is outdated; this would mean that the writer knew it was outdated when they wrote it, which is unlikely. You could start the sentence with "In 2019". But I'm ok if you leave it as is, it does actually not make a big difference. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 18:48, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I generally feel that the "Research history" section tends to drift of into unnecessary detail that is not directly related to the topic. For example, the whole paragraph about Gigantopithecus may be more relevant for the Paranthropus genus article, since P. robustus is not even mentioned in that paragraph (but even there, much of the specifics about Gigantopithecus could be much more concise). Maybe you could read over the "Research history" section to see if you can get rid of some detail to make everything more concise and easier to follow, and to concentrate on the important points. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 21:44, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Paranthropus was monotypic until 1959, so I could reword things like "In 1939, Broom hypothesised that Paranthropus was closely related to" to "In 1939, Broom hypothesised that P. robustus was closely related to"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:45, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I would always name the species when the genus is considered monotypic. Can't expect the reader to remember this. And considering the suggested shortening – These are only suggestions to solve the main issue I see: the "Research history" section is still very difficult to read and I think there must be some potential to improve it. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 08:36, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The "Research history" is mainly a history of classification. I would have expected more on the discovery of the specimens themselves (they are seemingly discussed in Paleoecology). Would it work to give a stronger focus on the separate fossil finds of this species in the "research history" section? It is important information that the reader might want to know from the start …
Yeah, I asked for the "Fossil-bearing deposits" section to be moved to paleoecology since much about it is about that, but of course, some of the info about individual specimens could go under history. FunkMonk (talk) 13:45, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
So what should I do?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:18, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not entirely sure. I agree with FunkMonk that the "Fossil-bearing deposits" section is better placed where it is now. Maybe start the "Research history" section with a paragraph that, after describing the discovery of the very first find, also outlines the discoveries of P. robustus that followed. Also, I definitely would provide some background information here as well, i.e. the reader has to understand that those localities are caves found within a quite restricted area (how large?) called the Cradle of Humankind, and that P. robustus was not found outside of this little area. This does not become sufficiently clear imo. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 17:21, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's already in Palaeoecology   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:38, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and my point was that important background information should be provided early in the article, and that history of discovery belongs in the history section. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 18:48, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The bottom of the Research history section already says all the sites P. robustus is known from, and that all these sites are in the Cradle of Humankind   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  15:50, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I also would start that section with some background information about "Kromdraai". It would improve understanding I think.
What kind of background information?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:18, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
See point above! And adding the word "cave" would already help. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 17:21, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
added that it's a cave   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  15:50, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • now also includes – see comment above considering "now".
if P. boisei or aethiopicus are ever removed by overwhelming consensus from Paranthropus, that would be a significant development and the article would be updated   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:18, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
OK then. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 17:21, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • but such anatomy is strongly influenced by – "their" anatomy?
"jaw anatomy"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:18, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • and could in all likelihood have evolved independently – I suggest to remove "in all likelihood".
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:18, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Arguments for which species is more closely related to which are based on how one draws the hominin family tree, – Really? The trees should be based on phylogenetics, and for themselves are objective. The included character states may be subjective.
if your components are subjective, how can your results be objective?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  22:22, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Your reasoning is correct. What I meant is that the method is objective. "Drawing", on the other hand, is something very subjective, and you need to have the final tree in mind before you start drawing. In phylogenetics, you collect the characters (which can be partly subjective at times), and give them to the computer to calculate the tree. The tree calculated by the computer is often not what you expected when collecting the data. Bottom line: "drawing the hominin family tree" is just misleading and certainly not how it works. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 17:21, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
So what should I change it to?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:38, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I probably would delete this part of the sentence altogether, as I am not sure what it wants to tell us in the first place (does it say anything more than "arguments about relationship are based on reconstructions of relationships"?). --Jens Lallensack (talk) 18:48, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  15:50, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The skull had a well-defined sagittal crest on the midline of the skullcap and inflated cheek – Which skull? It does not apply to all skulls as stated below.
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:18, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • suggesting different locomotory patterns – Would be good to state what differences have been suggested.
none specifically have been suggested, it's just if you have a different sense of balance you're locomotion should be in some undefined way different   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  22:22, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
They did indeed, something about lack of endurance running abilities in P. if I remember correctly. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 17:21, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's the next sentence "The posterior semicircular canals of modern humans are thought to aid in stabilisation while running"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:38, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That sentence does not tell us anything about Paranthropus though. The article states that the differences could indicate the lack of endurance running in Paranthropus (thus a difference to modern Homo), as well as a more terrestrial lifestyle than Australopithecus. These are quite interesting ideas I think. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 18:48, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  15:50, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • and either represents L1–L4 or L2–L5 – I suggest to spell it out to improve comprehensibility. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 08:36, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:18, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I still strongly suggest to start the article (maybe within "history of discovery") with an overview paragraph and background information: Introducing the cradle of human kind, its mayor caves, time span, saying that P. robustus is restricted to that region, the humans that have been found there (and mention which were contemporaneous to P. robustus); also mention East Africa as another hotspot of early human history, and, importantly, clarify that Homo appeared roughly at the same time than Paranthropus. And maybe more that I'm not aware of myself. Without such background, it is really difficult for the normal reader to fully understand, and appreciate, the article; all of this becomes very relevant later in the article. At the moment, you just expect that the reader knows all of this beforehand.
The significance of the Cradle of Humankind is already brought up with "At this point in time..." and we follow the history chronologically. East Africa didn't really become a hotspot until the 60s and 70s when we found P. boisei, H. habilis, and A. afarensis, so East Africa isn't brought up until the Research history section has moved onto that time interval. The discovery of contemporaneous taxa is brought up in chronological order as well. I did skip A. sediba and the whole debate on the species-level classification of South African early Homo (like "Homo gautengensis")   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:04, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • You didn't summarize Constantino et al. 2018, although it contains significant information.
changed to "P. robustus likely also commonly cracked hard foods such as seeds or nuts, as it had a moderate tooth-chipping rate (about 12% in a sample of individuals, as opposed to little to none for P. boisei)"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:04, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • specialist diet specifically adapted for – suggest to remove "specifically", since this is just redundant to "specialist".
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:04, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • narrow band of foods – later you refer to the same thing as "hard foods". I would specify "hard foods" here as well to avoid confusion.
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:04, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • P. robustus likely also consumed seeds based on tooth chipping patterns – I think it should be "chipping frequencies", and this is not precisely what the sources say: Chipping patterns may be indicative for hard foods but not specifically for seeds.
fixed (as above)   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:04, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The first probable bone tool was reported – Probable bone tool of what of australopithecines?
As in, the first piece of bone which was speculated to be a bone tool, and this speculation was likely correct/hasn't been convincingly refuted. Species attribution is discussed in "Bone tools are most abundant when P. robustus remains far outnumber Homo remains and stone tools, so they are often attributed to P. robustus"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:04, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • though it is possible that the stone tools were reworked. – I think you need to explain "reworked" in a gloss here.
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:04, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The form of P. robustus incisors appears to be intermediate between H. erectus and modern humans, which could possibly mean it did not have to regularly bite off mouthfuls of a large food item due to preparation with simple tools. – This doesn't make sense to me, does it mean that H. erectus did not use tools?
The source says "the mesiodistally narrow incisors of P. robustus, intermediate between Homo erectus and modern H. sapiens, also signaled a limited degree of food processing and paramastication using the anterior teeth" and then contrasts this with the wider incisors of Pliocene australopiths   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:04, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The first paragraph in "technology" is difficult to follow, and I needed to read it several times before understanding it. Especially, the succession of information is not optimal. Start with the basics, give a bit of background before going into the specifics in an organised way. First, the reader needs to know that 1) it is difficult to assign the tools to a particular species, 2) that both stone and bone tools are present and that the latter are commonly associated with P. robustus.
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:04, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • with the now-disproven "osteodontokeratic culture" – So these were not tools in the first place? The reader is a bit at a loss here, this needs explanation.
added "These bones are no longer considered to have been tools, and the existence of this culture is not supported."   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:04, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The paragraph on fire use: How does all of this relate to P. robustus? The species is not mentioned a single time.
Brain and Sillent did not attribute the fire to a species because both H. ergaster and P. robustus were found in Member 3, so they left it open-ended whether or not P. robustus was responsible or not   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:04, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • They extended their interpretation – Who is "they"? Of course, you mean the authors, but you only spoke about a "study", and here it grammatically refers to the gorillas.
"Balolia et al...."   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:04, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • This contrasts with other primates which flash the typically engorged canines in agonistic display (the canines of Paranthropus are comparatively small), though it is also possible that male gorillas and orangutans require larger temporalis muscles (and thus larger crest) to achieve a wider gape to better display the canines – But you said the crest is correlated with reproductive success in gorillas? Again, I think the formulation is not clear enough.
"This contrasts with other primates which flash the typically enlarged canines in agonistic display (Paranthropus likely did not do this as the canines are comparatively small), though it is also possible that the crest is only so prominent in male gorillas and orangutans because they require larger temporalis muscles to achieve a wider gape to better display the canines."   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:04, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • General remark: This has still some way to go. Most parts read well, but there are a number of sections which need to be reworked for better flow and comprehensibility. In these cases, I suggest to start with the basics, and then guide the reader. Furthermore, at least one seemingly important paper is not incorporated, and I feel the need to do a little source review before I can support. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 11:17, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Could you be more specific with the prose issues?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:14, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Slate Weasel edit

This is my first time ever reviewing at FAC, so I apologize in advance for any blunders I might make. I'm not sure if I'll have sufficient time to conduct an entire review. For the time being, here are some (largely flow-related) suggestions regarding the Paleoecology section:

  • "In addition, these two species resided alongside A. sediba" - Might be good to write out Australopithecus here, since the last generic name starting with A listed was Antidorcas
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:45, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "At Sterkfontein, only the specimens StW 566 and StW 569 are firmly assigned to the species, coming from the "Oldowan infill" dating to 2–1.7 million years ago in a section of Member 5." Might be good to clarify what "the species" is here.
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:45, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "—is exceptionally large for P. robustus, which has a recorded maximum of 290 mm2 (0.45 sq in), falling within the range of P. boisei 278–378 mm2 (0.431–0.586 sq in). So, the discoverers assigned it to an indeterminate species of Paranthropus rather than P. robustus." This feels a little choppy - perhaps something like "—is exceptionally large for P. robustus, which has a recorded maximum of 290 mm2 (0.45 sq in), but falling within the range of P. boisei 278–378 mm2 (0.431–0.586 sq in). Thus, the discoverers assigned it to an indeterminate species of Paranthropus rather than P. robustus."
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:45, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Australopithecine bones may have accumulated in caves due to large carnivore activity, dragging in carcasses, which was first explored in detail in 1983 by Brain." Perhaps "Australopithecine bones may have accumulated in caves due to large carnivores dragging in carcasses, which was first explored in detail in 1983 by Brain." might flow better?
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:45, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "these species predominantly ate large grazers, and the leopard," At a glance this looks like its saying that the hyenas at leopards, perhaps change the "and" to "while".
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:45, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Homo possibly was able to survive due to the great geographical range." Does this refer to the range occupied by Homo or the wet/dry cycles? I'm guessing the former, but it might be good to clarify.
did not specify   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:45, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I may add more in the future. --Slate Weasel ⟨T - C - S⟩ 01:35, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Below are some thoughts on paleobiology: --Slate Weasel ⟨T - C - S⟩ 00:57, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Is a fallback food just less desirable food or a food source that an animal switches to when its preferred food is unavailable?
yes   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  22:23, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the social structure subsection, I'm not sure if the first sentence really needs to be its own paragraph. Perhaps it could just be merged into the following one?
I think it's an important enough clarification to be a sentence-paragraph   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:18, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:18, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "They concluded that these bones were, "the earliest direct evidence of fire use in the fossil record,"" Perhaps state the estimated date of these bones here, since it's given for the now-earliest claim?
Member 3 is poorly constrained, and at this point in time was dated to 1.5–1 mya. It is now generally dated to much younger intervals   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:18, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the distal humerus (at the elbow) joint" should this be "the distal humerus (at the elbow joint)"?
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:18, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Unlike apes and gracile australopithecines, but like humans," Perhaps it would be better to use "other apes" in place of "apes"
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:18, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This is more similar to gorillas whose roots typically measure 7 mm (0.28 in) when emerging from the gums (a later stage of dental development) whereas other hominins typically are under 5–6 mm (0.20–0.24 in)." I'm trying to figure out how best to phrase this without being confusing - perhaps "whereas those of hominins typically are"? While I know that other hominins excludes Paranthropus robustus here, it kind of sounds like it's referring to gorillas instead.
"In contrast, those of other hominins reach 5–6 mm (0.20–0.24 in) after the tooth has emerged not only from the gums (a later stage of dental development). SK 62's growth trajectory is more similar to that of gorillas, whose roots typically measure 7 mm (0.28 in) when emerging from the gums."   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:18, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds good! I've posted some comments on the first half of the anatomy section below. --Slate Weasel ⟨T - C - S⟩ 01:35, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "P. robustus has a tall face with slight prognathism (the jaw jutted out somewhat)." Maxillary or mandibular prognathism?
if you're comparing it to the proportions of modern humans, it would be both   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:51, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The skulls of males had a well-defined [...]" - "had" should be replaced with "have" for consistency of tense.
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  15:45, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "which would have increased lever arm" I don't fully understand this statement - what is being increased? Length, massiveness? Or am I totally misunderstanding what "lever arm" means in this context?
So torque τ = r * F, where r is the lever arm vector (or in this case the length of the mandibular ramus which pivots around the jawhinge), and F is the applied force (in this case by the masseter and pterygoids). If you stretch the ramus, you can increase your torque and the force your jaws can exert   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:51, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Upon describing the species, Broom estimated the fragmentary braincase of TM 1517 as 600 cc," It would be good to clarify that this is volume, perhaps it could be changed to "Upon describing the species, Broom estimated the volume of the fragmentary braincase of TM 1517 at 600 cc,"
  • "SK 3981 preserves a 12 thoracic vertebra" Is this the convention when talking about hominid vertebrae? Usually I would write it as thoracic vertebra 12, but I've dealt more with sauropsids.
I don't know what the standard spelt out version is, I've only ever seen it as T12   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:51, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps "a 12th thoracic vertebra"? --Slate Weasel ⟨T - C - S⟩ 22:42, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
that was a typo   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  15:45, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is "pelvises" the plural of "pelvis" or is it "pelves" (or both)?
both work   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:51, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the rest of anatomy:

  • "The radius of P. robustus is the same as in Australopithecus species." - Perhaps "The radius of P. robustus is identical in form to those of Australopithecus species."? "same" is a bit vague.
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  15:45, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "arboreal activity in the trees" - Since the arboreal locomotion article defines arboreal locomotion as "the locomotion of animals in trees", the "in the trees" part feels extraneous.
it's to gloss arboreal   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  15:45, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps parenthesize it to clarify that it's a definition? --Slate Weasel ⟨T - C - S⟩ 21:16, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The femur, like P. boisei and H. habilis," - perhaps change "like" to "as in" (although this may be too nitpicky)
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  15:45, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "(which he called "H. africanus")" Since Australopithecus africanus is still valid, wouldn't it be "H." africanus?
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  15:45, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The last paragraph states that P. robustus shows a greater degree of sexual dimorphism than humans, but H. ergaster/H. erectus has a greater difference in mass. Just to be sure, is this accurate?
it's still debated if H. ergaster/H. erectus had a high degree of sexual dimorphism or not (I'm not sure where the author of this study stands), but this is only 1 site. That'd be like putting Dwayne Johnson next to Scarlett Johansson and saying modern humans have high size-specific sexual dimorphism   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  15:45, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, that makes sense. --Slate Weasel ⟨T - C - S⟩ 21:16, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And here's taxonomy:

  • "and 2 toe bones," - since "toe phalanx bone" is specified elsewhere, are these phalanges or metatarsals?
added   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  15:45, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in 1950, Broom suggested separating early hominins into the subfamilies Australopithecinae (A. africanus and "P. transvaalensis"), "Paranthropinae" (P. robustus and "P. crassidens"), and "Archanthropinae" ("A. prometheus")." Since "A." and "P." could both refer to more than one genus here, it would be good to specify what they refer to.
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  15:45, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1972, Robinson suggested including Gigantopithecus into "Paranthropinae"," - "including Gigantopithecus in "Paranthropinae""?
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  15:45, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Most immediate reactions favoured synonymising "T. capensis" with "P. crassidens" whose" - I think that there should be a comma after "P. crassidens" here, but I don't know whether it would be inside or outside the quotes.
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  15:45, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Optional: "another and much more robust australopithecine" -> "another, much more robust australopithecine"
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  15:45, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A. aethiopicus" Perhaps write it as "A." aethiopicus for consistency?
I don't know what to do because A. aethiopicus is just as valid a combination as P. aethiopicus   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  15:45, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If that's a common enough placement (which it seems to be), then it should be okay. --Slate Weasel ⟨T - C - S⟩ 21:16, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Proponents of paraphyly allocate these three species to the genus Australopithecus as A. boisei, A. aethiopicus, and A. robustus." - The cladogram cited to the same study still puts the first two in P. though - shouldn't they also be in A.?
I don't understand. If Paranthropus is valid, robustus can't be excluded since it's the type species   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  15:45, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Looking back, I'm not sure what I was aiming for here - I somehow misread the P. robustus label on the paraphyly cladogram as A. robustus. --Slate Weasel ⟨T - C - S⟩ 21:16, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'll probably read through the lead tomorrow or perhaps even later today. --Slate Weasel ⟨T - C - S⟩ 22:42, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Perhaps put authorities after the synonyms in the taxobox?
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:52, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Robust australopithecines–as opposed to gracile australopithecines–are" Looking at WP:DASH, I think that these should be longer dashes if there are no spaces (although I'm not entirely sure).
changed to em dash   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:52, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • As before, perhaps change "in the trees" to "(movement in the trees)"
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:52, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • It may be good to describe what a storage organ is.
it already says "underground storage organs (USOs), such as roots and tubers"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:52, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's undefined in the lead though. Perhaps "(such as roots and tubers)" could be added after it? --Slate Weasel ⟨T - C - S⟩ 17:00, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:06, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And that's all I have from this reading! This was quite an interesting read! --Slate Weasel ⟨T - C - S⟩ 21:16, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ucucha edit

This looks well-done and interesting, thank you for contributing your work to Wikipedia!

Some notes from reading through the article:

  • "Paranthropus robustus is a species of robust australopithecine"—I feel like the first sentence should define the subject in a way that non-specialists understand, and "australopithecine" is not a commonly understood term. Would "human-like primate" be acceptable?
probably not   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  02:37, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1948, at the nearby Swartkrans Cave, Broom and Robinson described "P. crassidens" based on a subadult jaw, SK 6, which was younger than the fossils from Kromdraai. They believed that the Swartkrans Paranthropus were reproductively isolated from Kromdraai Paranthropus and they eventually speciated." I checked these two sentences against the source and there are some problems:
    • There is nothing in Broom's note about reproductive isolation or speciation: he just says that crassidens is a new species. I don't know what species concept Broom used, but not all species concepts require reproductive isolation. (And a paleontologist who thinks they can infer reproductive isolation from the fossil record must be very brave.)
    • You mention Robinson, but I don't see his name anywhere in the note.
    • The note bears the date January 8, 1949, not 1948. I suppose the find was in 1948 though.
    • The claims that the jaw is subadult, that is bears the number SK 6, and that it is younger than the Kromdraai fossils aren't in Broom's note. I don't doubt that later research established those facts, but the citation should be to that research, not to Broom's note.
added correct ref   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  18:22, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Jewish German anthropologist Franz Weidenreich"—why does it matter that the man was Jewish?
Weidenreich was only in China to study Chinese hominids because he was a Jew fleeing Nazi Germany   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  02:37, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "note, they are not absolute" on the legend to the phylogenetic trees. I don't know what "absolute" means here and I've looked at a lot of phylogenetic trees. Does it refer to the time dimension?
as in, there are tons of other alternate trees you could choose from   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  02:37, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • It would be nice to have a section, preferably early on, detailing how much material is known for the species. Is it feasible to give a complete list of all known material? That would provide useful context for many later sections.
there are too many to list   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  02:37, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(To be continued at the "Palaeobiology" section.) Ucucha (talk) 17:24, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And the rest:

  • I'm having some issues understanding the discussion of mortality and sex in the "Social structure" section. You say that "males seem to have had a higher mortality rate than females", but in the long run, surely the mortality rate is 100% for both. Is the argument that because males were more likely to be caught by predators, and the fossils we find are usually animals caught by predators, and therefore we find more males?
@Ucucha: that's correct, males were more likely to die from something other than disease/old age. How would you reword?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  02:37, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ucucha (talk) 02:35, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 27 December 2020 [6].

Beaver edit

Nominator(s): LittleJerry (talk) 17:08, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm nominating this article for FAC again. It was undercooked the last time but has since had a copyedit, major restructurings, some expansions and a peer review. Have at it! LittleJerry (talk) 17:08, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I engaged at Wikipedia:Peer review/Beaver/archive1 and am satisfied that the article is now FAC-ready. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:16, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review edit

  • Alt texts shouldn't be the same as caption - if appropriate you can use |alt=see caption
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 11:53, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Western_pocket_gopher.jpg: where is the CC licensing coming from? Don't see that at given source
It was confirmed to have a CC license by FlickreviewR when it was first posted. LittleJerry (talk) 11:53, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Beaver_Eating_Lilly_Pads_(15682458379).jpg: source link is restricted - is this meant to be CC or PD? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:33, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ditto. LittleJerry (talk) 11:53, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Ditto" does not answer my question. Which license applies? CC is not PD. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:34, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed both. LittleJerry (talk) 19:30, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Funk edit

  • I'll have a look soon. At first glance, Tierra del Fuego is duplinked. FunkMonk (talk) 23:07, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 23:24, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "he also classified the species name fiber" One doesn't classify a name, he coined or named it.
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 12:17, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "German zoologist Heinrich Kuhl classified C. canadensis in 1820" Likewise.
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 12:17, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Prior to that, many still considered them the same species" This is very handwavey. Who, when and why? And what did they consider them as, subspecies? Does anyone still believe this?
Doesn't say. LittleJerry (talk) 12:17, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "shows evidence of dam and lodge building" Like what?
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 12:28, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "C. californicus was similar to but larger than the extant North American beaver." But what is the relationship between them? Ancestor-descendant, or sister species?
Just closely related. LittleJerry (talk) 12:28, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Eurasian beaver may have descended from C. praefiber." Which lived when and where?
That already states that Castor originated in Eurasia. I don't need to get into that level of detail. LittleJerry (talk) 12:28, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • It could be helpful if image captions stated which species are shown.
Don't see the need. LittleJerry (talk) 12:28, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it would help the reader perhaps learn to spot the differences, anyway, your choice. FunkMonk (talk) 12:56, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Phylogeny of extant and extinct relatives of modern beavers." You could specify if this is based on genetics or morphology.
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 12:28, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The see also section seems pointless.
Removed. LittleJerry (talk) 12:28, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Any difference in overall size and colouration between the species?
Not really. LittleJerry (talk) 15:44, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "while the underfur are 2–3 cm" Is? Fur is singular.
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 15:44, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The nostrils of the North American beaver are square shaped while those of the Eurasian species are triangular." Do you mean the fleshy nostril or the bony nostril?
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 15:44, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Their four incisors are chisel-shaped with continuous growth." This could be interpreted as if they get chisel shaped during growth. If this is not what is meant, you should state "and they grow continuously" instead.
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 15:44, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • " They have one opening, a cloaca, that contains the genital, digestive and excretory openings." Is this unique to them among rodents?
Yes. LittleJerry (talk) 15:44, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Should be stated then, as it's interesting but the reader won't know by the current wording. FunkMonk (talk) 16:51, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The source doesn't compare them to other rodents in this regard. Are you saying some editorializing is justified here? LittleJerry (talk) 17:14, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • One puzzling aspect that needs explanation why has the American beaver been introduced to Europe when there is already a European species?
They were first introduced to an area were Eurasian beavers were absent. LittleJerry (talk) 15:44, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Why not use European beavers then? Because they were scarce?
Doesn't say. I think that is relevent more to the species articles. LittleJerry (talk) 17:14, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Small populations are also present in Mongolia and northwestern China, their numbers were estimated at 300 and 700 respectively as of 2016" Native or introduced?
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 15:44, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • This video[7] shows the beaver foraging clearer than the one used, where it is behind foliage for much of the time.
Don't care for the video quality and the people talking. LittleJerry (talk) 23:04, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You could choose a more interesting thumbnail for the video by adding the thumb time parameter, as in the video in Quagga Project. FunkMonk (talk) 16:51, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Beaver need trees" You should be consistent in whether you say beaver or beavers in plural.
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 15:44, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Beavers can fell a tree in about one-and-a-half minutes on average" That is pretty vague, what size tree? Especially since right after you say "trees as large as 25 cm (9.8 in) can require over four hours".
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 21:21, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • You say both "parental" and "paternal" colonies, would be best to stick to one term, the one used by the source.
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 19:09, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Other studies found the presence of beavers can increase wild salmon and trout populations; as well as their size." Explain how.
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 19:09, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As trees are drowned by rising beaver impoundments, they become ideal nesting sites for woodpeckers" You could specify their roots are drowned, otherwise one might be confused and think the entire tree is below water.
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 19:09, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Beaver modifications to streams in Poland have been associated with increased bat activity." How come?
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 19:09, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Dead trees caused by construction of a beaver dam" You should specify in the caption thjat this is in Argentina, to establish its relevance to the adjacent text. Also, not sure why this image should be smaller than the others, it is hard to see.
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 19:09, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "However, areas with introduced beaver" Again, no reason not so say "beavers" here as you do everywhere else.
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 19:09, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Any difference in behaviour between the species?
Not really. LittleJerry (talk) 19:09, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The infobox image shows a beaver kind of sitting on its tail, poking forwards. Is there any behaviour associated with this that could be mentioned?
No but I added information on bipedalism. LittleJerry (talk) 20:35, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think it is important to not ethe differences between the two species in the taxobox.
I don't see the need. LittleJerry (talk) 19:09, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Since this article is about both species, the genus overall, it is crucial that this point is made in the intro, since you otherwise don't give it any coverage there apart from simply stating there are two species. I'd agree if it had been about a single species or multiple species, but not here. Especially since the differences are so few and simple to explain. FunkMonk (talk) 04:22, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 13:22, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "they are considered to be a keystone species" You don't need "to be".
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 19:09, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the young will help their parent repair" Parents? As you say in the article body.
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 19:09, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Jens Lallensack edit

  • Please include "as of 2016" in the caption of the range map. This makes clear that it is the current range map (and not the original distribution). Also, the map is out-of-date already concerning the distribution in Central Europe, so the exact year is needed in the caption.
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 11:54, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Jens Lallensack? LittleJerry (talk) 01:49, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • The North American beaver has a larger skull with a broader tail. – I suggest "and", since the tail does not sit on the skull.
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 22:58, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • he also coined the species name fiber – it has to be "the second part of the species name, fiber" to be exact.
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 22:58, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • However, the two beavers – sounds weird, maybe just "the two species"? Since we are not talking about individual beavers.
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 22:58, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • posteriorly located palatine foramen – this has to be more accessible, maybe "with the palatine foramen (opening) closer to the rear end of the bone"; link Foramen.
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 22:58, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • What about Castor tamanensis, if it is still valid it deserves mention.
Never heard of it before. Little information. LittleJerry (talk) 22:58, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • This paper here has quite some interesting additional information: pdf.
Information already stated in the article. LittleJerry (talk) 22:58, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
For example, the information that the genus Castor coexisted with other extinct beavers would be good to mention I think. The "Evolution" section currently deals mostly with the evolution of castorids in general, but has very little on Castor itself. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 10:06, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 14:05, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • When was the North American beaver introduced to the different parts of the world? I think it is important to add the years.
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 22:58, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Under New Zealand's Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act 1996, beavers are classed as a "prohibited new organism" preventing them from being legally imported into the country. – This is a bit out of context; maybe first state that there are no introduced beavers in New Zealand to make it less confusing? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 21:57, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 23:06, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Beavers have four premolars and 12 molars adding up to 20 teeth in total – Teeth are usually counted per side (i.e., 2 premolars and 6 molars per side); at least this is the convention? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 10:06, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 13:48, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The molars have meandering ridges on a flat surface for grinding woody food. – I think this oversimplifies it and gives the false impression that the tooth is something static as in humans. In reality, they are constantly abraded, but the enamel (forming the ridges) is more resistant than the dentin (which thus forms the lower parts of the tooth top surface). --Jens Lallensack (talk) 10:06, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 17:12, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The second claw of the hind foot is split and is used for combing the fur to keep it fluffy. – Again, I think this is an oversimplification. See here; the claw is not really "split", it is instead a "double" nail. It should also be mentioned that the first claw is modified for grooming as well. The link I provided has a link to a paper directly on the topic that could be cited as well. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 10:06, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 13:52, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The digestive system is adapted for a high-fiber diet – that goes without saying, since it is the primary diet; of course they are adapted to it. But we need to know how are they adapted?
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk)
  • a cardiac gland secretes into the stomach. – but humans have more than one cardiac gland?
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk)
  • Beavers have a pair of castor sacs found between the kidneys and urinary bladder and open into the urethra and anal glands. – grammatical problem ("that open into")?
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 13:39, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • were ir spread to other parts of Europe – it
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 13:48, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The beaver has since returned to parts of its former range because of management measures and reintroductions. – natural expansion is an important factor at least in Europe, should be mentioned.
It is implied in the sentence with "returned to parts of its former range because of management measures and..." LittleJerry (talk) 13:39, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think each picture should state which species is depicted. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 10:06, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That gets tedious and redundant. Readers will not notice the difference. LittleJerry (talk) 13:48, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I consider this important, and I see the reviewer above raised the same issue. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:42, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 23:25, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • As trees are partially submerged by rising beaver impoundments, they become ideal nesting sites for woodpeckers, which carve cavities that attract many other bird species. – Why do they become ideal nesting sites? Because the tree dies after being flooded?
Yes. Dead trees are softer. LittleJerry (talk) 23:25, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • When mentioned their effect on climate change, I really think their impact on wildfire prevention also should be discussed (see, e.g., [8]). --Jens Lallensack (talk) 21:05, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Already in the first paragraph. LittleJerry (talk) 23:25, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not really. That sentence is about refugees for plants during wildfires. The article I linked is about wildfire prevention. This really needs to be discussed when climate change is mentioned. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:19, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Would you mind if I add what I consider necessary information concerning wild fire prevention by myself? I saw that you added some words, but it still seems unsatisfactory to me, and not in the right context. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 09:14, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Jens Lallensack okay then. LittleJerry (talk) 14:19, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Jens Lallensack? LittleJerry (talk) 15:33, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Added. I don't see it as specific to just climate change though. LittleJerry (talk) 00:30, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, reviewing is sometimes a bit tedious. One answer above, more soon. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:19, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • but long-distance dispersals are not uncommon since previous colonizers have already exploited the local resources – since this is not always the case, do we need a "when" instead of "since"?
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 16:58, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • How large are the territories? Some numbers would be nice just to get an idea.'
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 16:58, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'beaver fever' – here in single quotes, in the text above in double quotes. Why in quotes in the first place?
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 16:58, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • and hysterical conditions (i.e. pertaining to the womb), – could you please check if you instead mean the psychological condition here?
Doesn't say. LittleJerry (talk) 16:58, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
But this is a potential flaw. We need to fully understand the sources in order to reproduce them correctly. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 17:08, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 17:17, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The properties of castoreum has been – have been
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 16:58, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • which is transformed to salicylic acid and has a chemical reaction very similar to aspirin. – this appears to be overly simplified, there must be a more precise word than "chemical reaction". --Jens Lallensack (talk) 11:46, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It has previously worded "been credited to the accumulation of salicin from willow trees in the beaver's diet, which is transformed to salicylic acid and has an action very similar to aspirin." I was asked to change it to chemical reaction. This is not a chemistry article so it shouldn't have to be specific. LittleJerry (talk) 16:58, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Action", in the sense of "physiological effect", seems correct to me. "Chemical reaction" is much less ideal in my opinion, as I still don't think it is what you want to say. Did they gave a reasoning why "action" will not work? Maybe changing it to "physiological effect" would work? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 17:08, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 17:12, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Jim edit

Generally looks pretty good, a few nitpicks

  • Beavers are known for building dams and lodges — Why not Beavers build dams and lodges?
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 16:02, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • castoreum, a urine-based substance — I don’t think that’s right, the secretion is a mixture of castoreum and urine, the catoreum appears to be derived from plant materials (also repeated this lower in text)
Pg. 13 of Müller-Schwarze and Sun "Beavers produce dilute urine. Concentrated in the "castor sacs", it becomes castoreum....." LittleJerry (talk) 16:08, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • he also classified the species name fiber — worth saying this is just the Latin for "fibre"?\
I don't see the need. This isn't the species article. LittleJerry (talk) 16:02, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • 24 subspecies have been classified for C. canadensis while nine have been for C. fiber.—clunky, perhaps 24 subspecies have been proposed for C. canadensis and ninefor C. fiber.
I don't see the need. LittleJerry (talk) 16:02, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • due to the presence of iron — add compounds
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 16:02, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • their numbers estimated at 300 and 700 respectively as of 2016— were estimated?
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 16:02, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Depending on the circumference of the trunk, beavers can fell a tree in about one-and-a-half minutes; — So what thickness of tree can they fell in one-and-a-half minutes? This is meaningless as it stands
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 16:02, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • beaver activity in ponds warms the water — How?
By the see last paragraph of "infrastructure". LittleJerry (talk) 16:02, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The text there says During the winter, warm air coming out of the vent helps melt the snow and ice on the lodge., which appears to be warm air, not warm water. I can't see how beaver activity can significantly raise the temperature of a significant volume of water, which has huge thermal inertia Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:58, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 17:35, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • injected into the ear on the same side as the tooth — Do you mean the into the ear opening?
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 16:02, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "beaver" is also a slang term for beards and the female genital — Beard is wrong, it’s derived from a different word “beaver” for the medieval armour covering the lower part of the face, from French bavière, a child’s bib. Also, is it worth saying that the pubic meaning is mainly American?
Removed. LittleJerry (talk) 16:02, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Hanif Al Husaini edit

What is the meaning of the colors of the range map in the infobox? Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 14:44, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 17:30, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose edit

  • Spotted prose issues on only a quick look, eg "widespread throughout the continent down to northern Mexico; being absent only in the Arctic, the deserts of the southwestern US and in peninsular Florida. The species was introduced to Finland in 1937 were it spread..."
SandyGeorgia already approved of the prose. LittleJerry (talk) 14:12, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I would not state it that way (nor is my prose stellar). I did not do a full review; I did enough to say the article was now FAC ready, where in its first FAC, it was ill-prepared. That was quite a while ago, and I observed at scorpion (your other FAC) that serious grammatical errors and typos were introduced after my review and while addressing my comments. In fact, “were it spread” was not present in the article when I reviewed it at Peer review. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:35, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Working. LittleJerry (talk) 14:43, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Colour should not be the only method to convey key information, as in the range map
This makes no sense. LittleJerry (talk) 14:12, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
See MOS:COLOUR. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:44, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Requesting a color key. LittleJerry (talk) 16:28, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, but removing the legend entirely doesn't fix this. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:02, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • MOS issues, eg hyphens in place of dashes, missing conversion for coat density
Fixed hypens, I don't know ho to convert hairs/cm³. LittleJerry (talk) 14:31, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Missing a modern population estimate for the North American species, outside of Patagonia
I already googled it and this is the best I could find. The IUCN doesn't even give a current one. LittleJerry (talk) 14:12, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There are sources available for this information. For example this one estimates 10 to 15 million. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:02, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The map doesn't match up with the distribution information described in the text, eg the Asian populations
That's not my fault. The IUCN mentions the Asian populations but does not include them in the map. LittleJerry (talk) 14:10, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Then we shouldn't be presenting the map as showing the complete range. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:02, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why include Haida and Cree mythologies but not those of other cultures, such as Ojibwe or Lakota? Similarly, why mention its use in the crest of Biberach, but not New York City?
Because Ojibwe or Lakota were not mentioned in the book I have. I mentioned enough of North American heraldry so I gave a European one. Other examples are more important for the species articles. LittleJerry (talk) 14:10, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The book you have is not the only source that exists. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:44, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There are few high quality sources available on beavers in various NA cultures, but I added mention of New York and Oregon. LittleJerry (talk) 14:55, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
My question remains the same. How are you deciding which things to mention and which to omit? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:02, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Beaver fever" content should use a MEDRS-compliant source
The source is reliable enough. LittleJerry (talk) 14:32, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The source provided does not meet that standard. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:44, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed then. LittleJerry (talk) 15:20, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relocation or culling is used to control "nuisance beavers". - in what jurisdiction? Other techniques are used in some places
The exact jurisdictions are not important for this article. They are important for the species articles. LittleJerry (talk) 14:15, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Added information on non-lethal measures. LittleJerry (talk) 00:34, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some of the sources used are quite dated - for example, how much forest has been destroyed in South America since 2008? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:42, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Dated it. LittleJerry (talk) 14:15, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You added a date, but that's not the issue - my concern is that that date is now quite a while ago, and the world has changed since then. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:44, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed to as general as possible. More detailed and recent information is relevant to the species article or Beaver eradication in Tierra del Fuego. LittleJerry (talk) 14:59, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Added more recent articles. LittleJerry (talk) 21:22, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is an unfair ambush. These are all minor nitpicks. LittleJerry (talk) 14:15, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. I feel there are fundamental issues here with regards to the FA criteria, particularly 1a, 1b, and 1c. Further, note that in several points of my comments I flagged specific examples, but these are examples only, not a comprehensive listing. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:44, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nikkimaria, TwofingeredTypist has done a copyedit so prose and MOS they should be fixed and the rest have been addressed. LittleJerry (talk) 21:22, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. While it's appropriate for this article to summarize information dealt with in more detail in subarticles, I feel there is some overgeneralizing going on, and important aspects of the animal are being missed. For example this source provides additional information about the interaction between species. Other aspects that one might expect to see discussed here include speed, vocalization, and potentially captivity. Some of the things that were selected for mention seem to be based on convenience, eg the cultural examples, rather than impact. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:42, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Vocalizations are already in the article!!!! And I can only reference cultural things that are referenced in available sources. This article even states that "In other words, it is difficult to understand the true significance of the beaver when there is little documentation of Native American history of human and beaver interaction." You've mostly done shot-checks on sources and now you're trying to decide what is comprehensive enough in an animal article? I demand a second opinion. Jens Lallensack? FunkMonk? Jimfbleak? LittleJerry (talk) 22:59, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is important to note, and that may have been overlooked by this review, that there are two species of beaver, and this article covers both of them. So we have to take this balance into account; how much do we write here that is only relevant to one of the two species? And is such extra detail (such as elaborating on the impact of North American beavers in South America) not more appropriate in the article about the particular species it relates to? In this light, I think the best approach here is to use broad strokes when it comes to the particulars of each species, and mostly write about what they have in common (while of course noting their differences). Further details should be found in the articles about each species. FunkMonk (talk) 23:06, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think we have further details where we shouldn't (eg Patagonia), and not enough where we should (eg comparing and contrasting the two species, providing basic details like speed, etc). Similarly with regards to cultural impacts, we have details, but not necessarily the most appropriate details. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:43, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If Google scholar hasn't been searched for more info, it of course should, and paywalled articles be requested at WP:RX. But there is of course a chance that some of these issues simply haven't been written about. FunkMonk (talk) 23:55, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I included all the information I could find on the physical and behavioral differences between the species.

  • "The North American beaver has a larger skull and broader tail. The nasal openings in the skull of the North American beaver are square, while those of the Eurasian species are triangular."
  • "Anal secretions are darker in females than males among Eurasian beavers, while the reverse is true for the North American species."
  • "North American beavers build more open-water lodges than Eurasian beavers."
  • "North American beavers prefer aspen trees while Eurasian beavers prefer willow."
  • " North American beavers build more open-water lodges than Eurasian beavers."

They were popularly thought to be the same species. What do you expect? As for cultural impacts, what do you think is so important? I've included information on beavers in Native American mythology, Medieval European art, modern popular culture and political symbolism. That a wide breath. If there is more important information out there then it should be easy to find. LittleJerry (talk) 00:12, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I provided a sample source above that lists more comparative information with links to additional sources that could be exploited. Sources supporting the other details I've mentioned are also available. As for cultural impacts: my concern is not the breadth of the examples, but how they have been selected. Other examples are both sourceable and more prominent. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:34, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I've now included that paper and did some expansions. I have no idea what cultural references you consider prominent. Please be specific. LittleJerry (talk) 03:07, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I've added more references to fictional beavers in culture and the speed of beavers in water. I have also expanded the environmental section which now discusses beaver effects on invertrebrates, fish, birds, mammals and amphibians. LittleJerry (talk) 12:31, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nikkimaria need input on my progress. LittleJerry (talk) 23:53, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just to give my 2 cents here: I partly agree that this article could be more comprehensive, but in other aspects. I do not think that, e.g., speed is something that necessarily needs to be discussed here. Speed is not really relevant for the biology of the beaver, since it does not rely on speed to escape from predators. While I think the article is mostly complete, here are some points that I personally would like to see better discussed:
    • Beaver management: This term is not mentioned in the article, but there are dozens of papers specifically on this topic.
Added. LittleJerry (talk) 15:21, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

LittleJerry (talk) 13:18, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    • Cellulose from trees cannot be processed by mammals. The article should explain how this is achieved in the beaver (symbiosis with bacteria in the much enlarged caecum).
Added. LittleJerry (talk) 13:38, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • The beavers important role in fire prevention
This is already in the article. I don't know how much more you want from me in this. The literature I've seen focuses on beavers providing refuge for plant and keeping places green. LittleJerry (talk) 14:24, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Soils were a beaver pond once has been tend to be much more fertile for agriculture.
I haven't found this. LittleJerry (talk) 14:24, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Worth mention that they do not hibernate (in contrast to many other animals in their climate); also what is about activity in winter, do they actively forage?
Added. LittleJerry (talk) 15:01, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Like Nikkimaria, I also got the impression that the conducted literature research was sometimes a bit sloppy. For example, the explanation of hysteria given in the article seemed to be little more than a good guess by the author, rather than based on careful reading of sources. I pointed the error out, but now see that the amended explanation is incorrect again. A lot of burden is put on the reviewers here to spot these issues and outline the solutions. This saves the author a lot of time, but it also causes a lot of work, and demotivation, for reviewers. I do not think that in this particular article there are too many possibilities to misinterpret sources, and I do believe this article is finally very close to FA level, but still: an uncomfortable feeling remains that I as a reviewer did not find all of these issues. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 12:30, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 15:01, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Here is just another example: You now included cellulose digestion by the microbiota, as I had suggested, but you state that this occurs in the stomach. I don't see this in your source, and I'm pretty sure it occurs in the caecum instead (as I already wrote). I just wish you would be more careful and throughout with addressing reviewer comments, and reading sources. You force me to do the research on my own to double-check all this stuff! I don't have the time and motivation for this! --Jens Lallensack (talk) 15:36, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 15:49, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You now simply deleted this information. It would have been more throughout, and a clear improvement to the article, if you instead would have searched for an additional source for the "caecum" part. It is stated in the first paper that appears in Google Scholar when you enter "beaver cellulose". --Jens Lallensack (talk) 15:58, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No. I just added the caecum. LittleJerry (talk) 15:59, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Jens Lallensack, I asked Hog Farm to do a source spotcheck to address any concerns.LittleJerry (talk) 16:54, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Hog Farm edit

I'll take a look at this. I had a look at the previous FAC. Hog Farm Bacon 06:28, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Anything out there about potential captivity of beavers?
They aren't commonly kept in captivity so it isn't all that notable. LittleJerry (talk) 13:54, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There are plenty of sources on this topic, dozens of zoo holdings plus non-zoo populations like the beaver projects in the UK. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:14, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Got to agree with Nikkimaria that there's definitely sourcing to add some stuff. Abstract of a 1966 paper about rearing in captivity, so they were apparently held in captivity in some places at least in the 60s. Paper about captive care for beavers. This says that beavers have been held in captivity (albeit in small numbers) since the 1700s. There's definitely the sourcing to say at least a bit about beavers in captivity, and something should be said about it. Hog Farm Bacon 06:07, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Added. LittleJerry (talk) 12:54, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Beavers have two premolars and six molars on each side, 20 teeth in total." - So is the each side counting both the top and bottom jaw as part of the side
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 13:59, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Under New Zealand's Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act 1996, beavers are classed as a "prohibited new organism" preventing them from being introduced into the country" - Why?
Presumably because of the impacts they make. LittleJerry (talk) 13:54, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "piling up branches and saplings next to their lodge" - In the water or on land?
Added. LittleJerry (talk) 13:54, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • How long does it take for beavers to reach sexual maturity?
Added. LittleJerry (talk) 13:54, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Since they stayed in one place, trappers could easily find the animals" - This seems to be contradictory to all the stuff about beaver dispersals and floater beavers
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 13:54, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Might be better off just stating that the beaver is sometimes used as a college mascot, as there's enough that just pointing out the Oregon State one may not be the best idea. Tim the Beaver is the MIT mascot for instance, so it might be just to give one categorical statement here.
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 13:54, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think "Project Gutenberg: " belongs in the title of reference 100
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 13:54, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's it for a first pass. This is in much better shape than it was when the first FAC was made. Hog Farm Bacon 07:00, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Spot checks
  • "Fossils of one genus in Castoroidinae, Dipoides, have been found near assemblages of chewed wood, though it appears to have been a rather poor woodcutter compared to Castor" - Checks out
  • "The introduced population in Patagonia is estimated at 35,000–50,000 individuals as of 2016" - The sources says "In the Isla Grande of Tierra del Fuego, several factors favoured a rapid population growth and range expansion (Lizarralde et al. 2004). Twenty-five mated pairs of beaver introduced in 1946, have grown to a population of 35,000-50,000 animals". Patagonia seems to be much broader than Isla Grande of Tierra del Fuego, so that seems to be straying from the source a bit.
Changed, but the Tierra del Fuego was the only place were the beavers were so this is nitpicky. LittleJerry (talk) 12:16, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No it's not, because it wasn't clear from the article that they hadn't spread into the rest of Patagonia. That's like a source specifying Ontario and the article saying Canada. Let's stick close to the source. Hog Farm Bacon 15:06, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Beaver modifications to streams in Poland have been associated with increased activity of bat species that hunt at the water surface and use more moderate vegetation clutter" - I can't verify this, as the original source link is dead and the archive link is saying that the internet archive never archived that URL
Hog Farm, try this LittleJerry (talk) 12:28, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Beavers do not hibernate and are active year-round; foraging and building" - Checks out
  • "he also coined the specific (species) epithet fiber" - Checks out
  • Who is Warner Shedd? Does he pass WP:SPS? We're citing one of his self-published books.
Removed. LittleJerry (talk) 12:24, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

So yeah, mixed results. We probably need someone who can spot check some of the paywalled sources, too. Hog Farm Bacon 06:26, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Jens Lallensack? LittleJerry (talk) 12:55, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support on prose, it appears to be comprehensive to me, a non-expert, this is not a source review. Hog Farm Bacon 17:24, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ian Rose, any more needed? LittleJerry (talk) 17:47, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nikkimaria, I did some expansions and added more sources (92 to 126). Any more? LittleJerry (talk) 14:38, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Looking for an answer to my question above re: culture: how are you deciding which examples to include and which to omit? Nikkimaria (talk) 16:08, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Based on if they are supported by reliable sources and if they are prominent. LittleJerry (talk) 16:40, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
How are you determining prominence? Nikkimaria (talk) 16:43, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
How popular and/or important they are. LittleJerry (talk) 17:04, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
And how are you determining that? Nikkimaria (talk) 17:16, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Is there a science to this? I'm not getting what you are getting at. LittleJerry (talk) 17:27, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There are many things that are sourceable about this subject. How are you deciding which of those things warrant inclusion, and which should be omitted? Why do the examples you've chosen belong? What makes them in particular representative of the literature? Nikkimaria (talk) 17:39, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Based on if they tell us about the importance of beavers and how people have perceived them as well as filling certain topics like Native American culture, European, art, modern popular culture, politics, heraldary, ect. LittleJerry (talk) 17:47, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nikkimaria, I limited cultural examples mostly to those mentioned in general sources, books and papers whose subject matter is beavers in culture. I limited political use to Canada, were the beaver is a the national symbol. LittleJerry (talk) 22:16, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There are other general source not cited, eg [9] or [10], and others specifically on culture, eg [11]. How are you picking which to cite? Nikkimaria (talk) 23:15, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
By finding them on google, searching "beavers in culture" ect. LittleJerry (talk) 23:42, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Added. LittleJerry (talk) 02:13, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment edit

Eight weeks in and this has no source review and has an outstanding oppose. As it stands it is within a day or two of being archive archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:27, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Source review by Ealdgyth edit

I am opposing due to the sourcing issues below and the general feel of how this was researched. Articles should be approached from a viewpoint of knowledge about the subject. You don't need to be an expert, but you should read enough on the subject that you can get a feel for what is important and what isn't ... so that you can include the important bits. The fact that when sources were challenged in this FAC, the source AND the information it was supporting were quickly removed implies to me that the subject was not well researched and instead a couple of books that could be gotten easily were consulted and some google searches were done and there really isn't a good feel for what the scholarship and research on beavers includes and excludes. In short, it fails 1b, 1c, and 1d. I am not trying to be mean to the nominator, but we really should expect better from FAs. Ealdgyth (talk) 20:14, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • What makes the following high quality reliable sources? And not just "another FA uses it" but what makes it a reliable source.
It seems reputable Online_Etymology_Dictionary#Reviews_and_reputation
I did read the article - and I'm not seeing that it is necessarily a high quality source. Ealdgyth (talk) 19:12, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Its good enough to be cited by Oxford. LittleJerry (talk) 19:53, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That might help a bit but it still doesn't show that it's a high quality reliable source. Oxford has produced some ... less than stellar ... sources themselves... Ealdgyth (talk) 20:09, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The source states "beavers are commonly seen along the Lake Ontario shore and throughout the stream corridors that run through the city." Removed anyway. LittleJerry (talk) 17:41, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
So you removed the information also? And that quote you gave does NOT support "watercourses have allowed beavers to penetrate deep into major cities" - it supports beavers are seen ALONG watercourses but nothing in the quote from the article makes the leap to the watercourses being the method of infiltration INTO the city. I'm a bit concerned that we may have an issue with sourcing if other parts of the article are "supported" by their sources in this manner also. Ealdgyth (talk) 19:12, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • "They have also been recorded as being infected by the rabies virus" is supported by an article in the Washington Post - surely we can find a better source for this than a newspaper!
Removed. LittleJerry (talk) 17:41, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
And did you leave the information it was supporting? Ealdgyth (talk) 19:12, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No.
Removed. LittleJerry (talk) 17:41, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
And did you leave the information it was supporting? Ealdgyth (talk) 19:12, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No.
Removed. LittleJerry (talk) 17:41, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
And did you leave the information it was supporting? Ealdgyth (talk) 19:12, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Removed. LittleJerry (talk) 17:59, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
And did you leave the information it was supporting? Ealdgyth (talk) 19:12, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Commentary by him. LittleJerry (talk) 17:59, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Then your citation isn't correct - it needs to give the author, etc. And what makes James Eason a reliable source on heraldry? Ealdgyth (talk) 19:12, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • the Muller-Schwarz/Sun reference is given as Comstock publishers but the ISBN links to https://www.worldcat.org/search?qt=wikipedia&q=isbn%3A9780801440984 which is published by Cornell University Press. This is the problem with converting ISBNs from 10 digit to 13 digit - you don't necessarily get the correct details or edition. This needs fixing.
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 17:41, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have concerns about using a google (is it plain google or google scholar, by the way?) search to decide what "re: culture: how are you deciding which examples to include and which to omit?" - the best method would be to actually consult books on the animal and see what the academic scholars think is important in regards to culture - because google's results are going to vary depending on the location of hte search and other factors we can't know due to google's opaque algorithims.
This has been fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 17:41, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry - how the heck can you fix my concern over the way sources have been found by saying "fixed". I have a concern with the research methodology here .. not a concern about whether a sentence should have a comma. Please do tell me how you fixed my concerns? Ealdgyth (talk) 19:12, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I mean I removed most of the information not sourced to a general source on beavers in culture. LittleJerry (talk) 19:40, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm a bit concerned that we're relying on two books for large chunks of the article - and only one of them is by an acadmeic publisher. Surely more sources have been consulted? Ealdgyth (talk) 16:35, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I got this book, but it is rather short at only 72 pages. This book is currently out of stock. LittleJerry (talk) 18:26, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
So you used... three book sources. That seems insanely skimpy for a topic with so much written on it. How do we know that all topics that academic scholarship has investigated have been covered if only three books are used? And if you used the Rue book, are you aware he's a nature photographer not a actual biologist? What makes you think this is a high quality source to be using? As for Runtz being out of stock - did you try your library? WorldCat shows about 4000 or so print books on beavers that are supposedly not aimed at children... we're not limited to what we can buy on Amazon. And generally, I would avoid using any "pictoral references" as a good start for getting a representative review of the literature.
Those are not the only books I used. I also cited "Busher, P.; Hartman, G. (2001). "Beavers". In MacDonald, D. W. (ed.). The Encyclopedia of Mammals (2nd ed.). Oxford University Press. pp. 590–593. ISBN 978-0-7607-1969-5." and Baker, B. W.; Hill, E. P. (2003). "Beaver Castor canadensis". In Feldhamer, G. A.; Thompson, B. C.; Chapman, J. A. (eds.). Wild Mammals of North America: Biology, Management, and Conservation (2 ed.). Johns Hopkins University Press. pp. 290–297. ISBN 0-8018-7416-5. They are formated differently because I'm citing specific sections/chapeter/page ranges. LittleJerry (talk) 19:40, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm generally unimpressed with the sourcing and getting very close to opposing unless I can see some sign that there was at least some research effort put into this article besides consulting two books and doing some google searches. Ealdgyth (talk) 19:12, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I looked though the books and none of them are at a library close to me and many of them don't have a cover pictured. LittleJerry (talk) 19:45, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Interlibrary loan is a thing. It's a wonderful thing. It lets you get things that your library may not have. And yes, I've spent money on sources ... lots. Either through buying out of print books or through buying new or through copying things that I needed. If you want to write FAs, you probably ARE going to have to expend effort/money to get some sources. There is no requirement to do such things for basic editing, but you're trying to get an article up to FA standards, which means that it needs to meet the criteria for an FA, not the criteria of "what the editor could afford". I'm not trying to be mean, here, just that FA isn't basic editing and it will occaisionally not be possible to fulfill the criteria if you can't get access to the works you need. Ealdgyth (talk) 20:09, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm recused since I reviewed. And I'm going to go on record here and oppose the article on sourcing. I strongly suggest taking your time and getting it right on sourcing before bringing it back. Ealdgyth (talk) 20:09, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I wish to withdraw my nomination of the article so I can work more on it for next time. Unless, the coordinators decide give me a couple days or so for this FAC nomination. Ealdgyth? Gog the Mild? LittleJerry (talk) 20:04, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator note edit

Archived per nominator request. Given that experienced reviewers consider this needs considerable work before being up to FAC standard, I would suggest carefully working through all of the comments by all of the reviewers prior to resubmission. The usual two week hiatus applies, barring an exemption from a coordinator. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:21, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 15 December 2020 [12].

Ave Maryam edit

Nominator(s): GeraldWL 14:34, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If heaven is undecided for me,
why should I meddle in your anguish?

This is a film I watched during the screening late November, and on Netflix when it's released during this pandemic. A story about a sister who fell into the wrong path and fell in love with a pastor, whilst trying to find herself. As a Catholic, it feels amazing to be represented in the Indonesian cinema. I started this article as a rough translation from http://www.id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ave_Maryam, which is a good article there. Then research plays in the game, and I started finding more information, and then realized that this can be a decent FA. I did copyedits, helped by Larry Hockett, and rechecked the article with the criteria; it seems to be just fine. Although I have a feeling that it still doesn't. Constructive criticisms and suggestions are really welcomed. GeraldWL 14:34, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Drive by comments by Aoba47 edit

  • Unfortunately, I am currently unable to do a full review, but I am uncertain if this is ready for a FAC after looking at the "Theme and reception" section. I would two separate sections on the film's theme and its critical reception. For the latter, I would encourage you to read WP:RECEPTION for advice on how to write a critical reception section. I would avoid having single-sentence paragraphs like this one, CNN Indonesia and Tabloid Bintang criticized the lack of emotion in the portrayal of Maryam, as they make the prose too choppy. I would think this section would benefit from a great deal of rewriting and revision.
    Aoba47, I removed that one-line paragraph, as well as several other generic stuff. I am also kind of weirded out by how that section turned out, as many film articles which are more popular than this has a smaller section. Whilst writing, I also tried following WP:RECEPTION on the "A said B D said C" thing, but found out that not all stuff can be made customly. I think the section is already fine, considering it combines discussion on its themes and reception of the film. GeraldWL 02:47, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for the response. Instead of removing that line completely, it would have been better to integrate that information elsewhere in the section, as it had useful information. Anyway, I do not see the benefit of combining discussions on the film's themes and its critical reception in a single section. It visually presents the reader with a rather large wall of text, and I just do not think it is the best strategy to present either pieces of information. Other film articles have smaller sections because the separate themes and critical reception in separate sections (or subsections).
I included the CNN Indonesia thing at its respective paragraph (2). The reviews on the film also discuss the themes of the film, that's why I combined the two stuff. Considering the combination, I now feel the length is fine.
My issue with this section is mostly about the structure not the length. Just because reviews also talk about the film's themes is not a strong enough reason to put both items in the same section rather than giving both their proper attention separately.
To clarify some of my critiques, I will use the first paragraph of this section as an example. It jumps around between seemingly unrelated topics (from how the film was a response to Indonesian films primarily featuring Muslim themes to the clothing palette and design to another part on midlife crises). I am not sure what this sentence, Despite the Catholic theme, only Olga is a real Catholic: Chicco is a Protestant, while Ertanto and Maudy are Muslims, is really trying to say or why it is included here. The last sentence raises the point about midlife crises being a theme, but does not provide any explanation to clarify this point.
Since we fundamentally disagree about an important section of the article, I will leave this up to other reviewers. As I have said above, I am unable to do a full review, and just wanted to point out something that I noticed while looking at the article. Aoba47 (talk) 08:02, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • See recent films FAs like Whisky Galore!, Baby Driver, Ghostbusters II, etc. as examples. I do not have an issue with going outside of the expected article structure, but I just find this approach to be fundamentally flawed. I think the more relevant aspects from WP:RECEPTION are the parts on organization. There is more to that essay than the "A said B D said C" thing. Again, this is just my perspective. Hopefully, other reviewers will engage with this FAC as they may think differently. Aoba47 (talk) 03:53, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'll try consult other FA films and WP:RECEPTION, see if there can be improvements. GeraldWL 05:41, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have also noticed some spots where the prose could use further work. For instance, this sentence, Ertanto expected the soundtrack to be similar to the songs of Lana Del Rey, which he admired, and he said that the final product is similar to that of Del Rey's, is repetitive. I think this article would benefit from a peer review first. That is just my perspective though. Aoba47 (talk) 22:29, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Reworded. I do initially refused to do FAC, but felt like a lot of the stuff here are clear and concise, and after consulting several Indonesian film featured articles, I feel like it's ready for the bronze. Any other instances of prose problems? GeraldWL 02:47, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I will include some of the prose issues I found while through the article below. My primary concern is with how the "Theme and reception" section is structured. I have honestly not read the full article.
  • Publication The Display said that the film's ending: Publication is not a particularly helpful description. I would be more specific.
Aoba47, I specified it.
  • On its theme of religious tolerance, the film was said to succeed in "asking for tolerance without the need to shout.": Who said this?
It's Media Indonesia. That paragraph is all about the newspaper's review.
  • That's not made clear in the prose of the sentence. On a related note, having complete paragraphs devote to a single publication's review, (as done here and with Ulasinema, Eastern Kicks, The Jakarta Post, etc.), is not an ideal way to organize/structure a section like this. Aoba47 (talk) 08:02, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Aoba47, Hmmm. I personally don't see problems with that.
  • Despite no will to stir controversy via the film: This part is awkwardly constructed/worded.
I removed it; can't see the significance of it.
  • The word "film" appears multiple times in the second paragraph of the "Production" section alone. I would try to avoid this to avoid the prose from becoming too repetitive.
Reworded.
  • Maudy claims that her character's name was thought to be her real name when she was mentioned after her role as Zaenab in Si Doel the Movie: I had to read this part a few times to understand its meaning. I think there is a better/clearer way to word this.
Re-reading the article, it's not as claimed in this article. That part was from the rough translation from WPID. It has little significance with the film, so I removed it.
  • The film received positive review: You say this in the lead, but it is not really clearly stated in the later section on the film's reception.
I don't think it has to. The compendium of positive reviews basically expands the sentence "Received positive review." GeraldWL 05:15, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can only say that for me, the way that the critical reception is currently structured makes it difficult for me to really get a solid grasp on how the film was received in broad terms like that. Aoba47 (talk) 08:02, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I reworded the lead to include its criticisms.
  • These are just a few items that I have noticed during an initial read-through. The Lana del Rey sentence was the one that really jumped out at me. The revised version avoids the repetition, but it is also pretty vague. Why did he expect the soundtrack to sound like Lana del Rey's music? Did he say what he admired about his music? However, again, the focus of my concern about the article is how the themes and critical reception is presented. I would be curious on which Indonesian film featured articles you consulted? Aoba47 (talk) 03:26, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I reworded it after reading the article once more to really understand, see if it work for you. GeraldWL 06:30, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I still think the sentence on the Lana Del Rey part needs improvement. I will stop here though as we just have two completely different viewpoints on the article (and I've likely taken up too much space already). I still do not think it is ready for a FAC, but I will not formally oppose. Hopefully, other reviewers (more experienced than myself) will comment here. I wish you the best of luck with this, and have a great start to your week. Aoba47 (talk) 08:02, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I made it to only talk about its inspiration being from Del Rey. And thanks for your review, learned many things! Looking forward for other editors. GeraldWL 08:22, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Given Spicy's comments below, I am going to oppose this as well. It is not ready for a FAC since an extensive amount of work is required (which should be done outside of a FAC), and I agree with Spicy that a PR and GOCE would be a better avenues to improve the article further. Aoba47 (talk) 03:28, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Aoba47, thanks for the suggestion. I will be sure to have a PR up if the article is not promoted. A GOCE would be hard, considering the late responses. If you see any other issues with the article feel free to bring it up here, it would mean a lot. GeraldWL 04:46, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I will not be raising any further points here as that should be done elsewhere. And I consider the points that I have already raised (and the one raised by Spicy) to be significant. Aoba47 (talk) 04:52, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose by Spicy edit

Thanks for putting this up for FAC. This is a good start, and an interesting read, but I believe the prose is far from FA standards at present. Some examples:

  • "serving a Catholic Church" - this should be "serving a Catholic church" because you are talking about an individual church, not The Catholic Church.
    Resolved. I believe an editor adjusted this up, as I originally put it as you suggested. GeraldWL 16:32, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Indonesian film premiered at the 2018 Hanoi International Film Festival. Locally, it premiered at the Jogja-NETPAC Asian Film Festival." - this is choppy and repetitive
    I don't see the problem here. It showed two sides: its international premiere and its local premiere. Nothing choppy, seemingly. GeraldWL 16:32, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It only received 80,000 audiences in 39 theatres nationwide" - "audiences" should be "viewers", and without context (e.g. is this notably poor performance for this sort of film? if so, what contributed to the poor performance?), "only" comes off as editorializing
    Un-editorialized. GeraldWL 16:32, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "born from" should be "born to"
    Fixed. GeraldWL 16:32, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "There, she interacts with people from various religions until she moves to Ambarawa, Semarang in 1980..." - this implies she stopped interacting with people from other religions after she moved... obviously this isn't the case
    Resolved. GeraldWL 16:32, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • linking "touch each other" to Making out is just odd
    Rewrote it to "making out." In the scene they were making out; I initially just summarized it as "touching each other" as that's the most significant and climaxy thing they did that contributed to the mood of the rest of the film. GeraldWL 16:32, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Maryam goes to Girisonta's confessional, confessing her sins" - what else would one do at a confessional?
    I believe a brief, tiny description of a confessional is fine. The word "confessional" doesn't seem like anything religious to me when I first heard of it. GeraldWL 16:32, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The fact that "the sea is made of salt water" does not need to be explained. The claim that "In a metaphoric sense, the sea is the values sisters hold dear and true, whilst the salt is Maryam herself." requires a citation.
    Removed as original research. GeraldWL 16:32, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Before starting production, the film's crew mailed out letters of approval to related organizations, including the Semarang diocese, realizing its theme could be interpreted as sensitive in the Indonesian general public." - "letter of approval" means a letter stating that an outside body approves of something, not a letter asking for someone's approval. It's not very clear what "its" is referring to here - the reader has to search for it, which makes the sentence awkward to read.. "in the ... general public" should be "by the general public".
    Fixed. GeraldWL 16:32, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "even Ertanto says that he realized that Maudy was Muslim after production, realized from the general public questioning Maudy's religion due to the film" - it is very difficult to understand what is meant here
    Fixed it, does that work out great now? GeraldWL 16:32, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "there was a meet-and-greet and Q&A session before the film starts" tense issues
    Fixed. GeraldWL 16:32, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the general public is disappointed with Netflix for choosing the cut version when they will not receive any legal problems if they release the uncut." - tense issues, again; "the general public is disappointed" is a very strong claim! "Receive" isn't the right word to use here.
    Reworded; although I don't think "disappointed" is a strong claim when it is cited by reliable source (I can see the weirdness though). GeraldWL 16:32, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The reception section is very formulaic - see WP:RECEPTION for advice on improving this.
    I am currently trying to find a way in remodeling the section per the two comments I've received here. GeraldWL 16:32, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Other issues: File:Ave Maryam plaza festival ticket.jpg is a derivative work; for the CC-BY-SA-4.0 license to be valid, the artwork on the ticket needs to be under a compatible license as well. I don't think there is a strong fair use case for File:Ave_Maryam_editing.jpg - the article doesn't even mention the editing process.

  • I put a de minimis template on the ticket image, if that's what your concern is on. As for the editing image, I chose that among many because the color grade of the film is one of the lauded elements by critics. Do you think adding more context makes it alright? GeraldWL 16:40, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm not convinced that it is de minimis. The artwork is the focal point of the image (and the photo is of questionable relevance to the article anyway). Spicy (talk) 16:47, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Again, these are just examples and are not meant to be comprehensive - similar issues are found throughout the article. I think that the article could have benefitted from a thorough copyedit and a peer review before being nominated at FAC. Spicy (talk) 16:18, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Spicy, thanks for the comments, mate! I chose to nominate it for FAC to attract a significant amount of editors who could have a more detailed comment(s) on this article; I also believed at the time this article is decent for an FA badge. If you look at the WPID version, it was also initially nominated for FA (not by me), and it failed but won a GA badge. If this article is not promoted, I plan to have this up on PR and GOCE, then nominate it for FA again. GeraldWL 16:40, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) I appreciate that you have fixed some of the issues I raised but as I stated before, those are just examples of problems that occur throughout the article. By the time an article is nominated at FAC it should need only a few tweaks and polishes; I think this one will need extensive work outside of FAC to bring it up to standard. PR and GOCE would be a good idea. Spicy (talk) 16:42, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

SandyGeorgia Oppose edit

With two other reviewers opposing, I suggest withdrawal @FAC coordinators: ; peer review is a better place to improve this article, and you can attract attention there by adding the peer review to Template:FAC peer review sidebar once the PR is opened.

  • Facebook as a source?
  • "Simlarized" pops up first on google for ... this article.
  • The prose is quite rough and it will take substantial work to bring this to FA standard: Unlike other films, Ave Maryam's soundtrack is only one song, sung by jazz singer Aimee Saras, composed by The Spouse (also composer of soundtrack for Satan's Slaves), and played by Rooftopsound. There are two versions in the film: one with a vocals, and one with Saras simply vocalizing the melody of the lyrics.

Also, if this started as a translation from the Indonesian article, a serious look into the accurate representation of non-English sources, without copyvio (direct translations are copyvio, and that is often a problem pre-existing on other language Wikipedias) will be needed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:36, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There seem to be plenty of good points about this article, but there also seems to be a consensus that the nomination was premature. I suggest improving it and ironing it out off-FAC - PR, GoCE and getting a FAC mentor all spring to mind - and bringing it back with most of the bugs ironed out. Hopefully you will br=e nominating this again soon, subject to the usual two week wait. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:02, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 14 December 2020 [13].

Water clock edit

Nominator(s): TZubiri (talk) 03:32, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about historical devices that use water or similar fluids to precisely measure the passing of time. For such a specific category of contraption, the amount of historical exemplars is astounding, complete with a huge body of archeological evidence and references, which takes as much of the credit as the article itself. I will say no more, I hope the article speaks for itself. TZubiri (talk) 03:32, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose and suggest withdrawal: After looking through the article, I saw large amounts of uncited text, and I have added the citation need tags to hopefully draw more attention to them. The article had other tags, such as a clarification needed tag in the lead image and an unreliable source tag in the article itself. I am sorry for leaving this message, but it seems like this article still needs a substantial amount of work that should take place outside of the FAC process. Aoba47 (talk) 04:08, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Coord note -- Hi, as well as the uncited material (enough in itself to close the nomination) there's the procedural issue of the nominator having made only one minor edit to the article. Per FAC instructions, nominators should be major contributors to an article so they can deal effectively with comments and criticism. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:14, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 13 December 2020 [14].

Cups (song) edit

Nominator(s): The Ultimate Boss (talk) 02:41, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the 2013 hit by Anna Kendrick. When it was introduced in 2012 in Pitch Perfect, every preteen and teen would play this during school. And I was part of that trend! It reached number 6 on the US Billboard Hot 100 and peaked within the top 20 outside the US. If you are American (which I am), the trend was popular again. But it wasn't cups this time. It was guns. The article has received been peer-reviewed and has also received a copyedit. Any comments are welcome! The Ultimate Boss (talk) 02:41, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Just a quick comment, the non-free image use rationale for the alternative cover states "To serve as the primary means of visual identification at the top of the article", but it isn't at the top of the article. Heartfox (talk) 03:19, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Heartfox, has been changed. The Ultimate Boss (talk) 03:22, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The "minimal use" rationale still states it's being used as "a primary means of visual identification at the top of the article dedicated to the work in question". However, it's neither the primary identification nor dedicated to the work in question, as the article is not primarily about the mashup. Heartfox (talk) 03:51, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Heartfox, I have removed it. The Ultimate Boss (talk) 04:17, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The article appears to have an open peer review here. Did you forget to close it? Heartfox (talk) 03:51, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know how to close it. The Ultimate Boss (talk) 04:17, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You can see instructions at Wikipedia:Peer review/guidelines. Heartfox (talk) 04:19, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Heartfox, Done. How does the article look? The Ultimate Boss (talk) 04:32, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I just intended to provide some preliminary comments; unfortunately I don't really have time to do an in-depth reading. I shouldn't even be on Wiki until mid-December with university lol. Good luck. Heartfox (talk) 04:35, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Laser brain edit

Doing an initial read-through now. An initial query:

  • Can you explain the thought process of the "Composition and lyrical interpretation" section? There seems relatively little information on composition, especially if Kendrick added any new lyrics not present in previous versions and what precisely the producers of this version brought to the table. I clicked into some other Featured song articles and most of them don't include a section interpreting the lyrics unless those lyrics were the subject of a considerable amount of critical commentary.
  • As an aside, I don't consider Holz a useful source for something like critical interpretation of the song. That's a religious web site focused on introducing their POV into popular media.

Let me know your thoughts on this section. --Laser brain (talk) 15:58, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Laser brain, I have removed the source and merged the composition and lyrical interpretation into the background. The Ultimate Boss (talk) 18:39, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose by Nick-D edit

Following on from my comments in the PR:

  • The article still doesn't introduce Anna Kendrick by providing any background about her, including how this song fitted into her career
done Ceoil (talk) 05:30, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The material on the video clip still seems much too lengthy and detailed
    Could do with trimming yet, but as the song is so sight, I think (guess) the video is more why the track became viral Ceoil (talk) 05:30, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Anna Kendrick first performed her version of the song as a part of the 2012 American musical comedy film Pitch Perfect" - the last sentence of the para where this appears to contradict this sentence.
  • "Kendrick said she had no idea the song would be used for Pitch Perfect." - it is still unclear what this means
  • " on the song's popularity and teamed up with Universal Pictures president of film music and publishing Mike Knobloch to produce a new, longer version with new instrumentation" - this is also unclear - what does the president of the music and publishing arm do? (did he produce the single himself?)
  • "Salt Lake City radio station KZHT played it 48 times from March 4 to March 10, 2013" - seems like trivia
  • Seems to have been removed Ceoil (talk) 05:32, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Nielsen BDS started tracking the song while being followed by Indianapolis station WZPL and satellite radio station Sirius XM Hits 1." - this sentence is hard to follow - why were these radio stations following Nielsen BDS?
    Claim has been removed Ceoil (talk)
  • "Republic Records and Universal Music Enterprises released a remix of Kendrick's version of "Cups", titled "Cups (When I'm Gone)", for downloading and streaming as More from Pitch Perfect's lead single on March 26, 2013, on mainstream radio.[16][17][18][19][20]" - it it was released for internet sales, how was it published on radio? The wording here doesn't work well (and does this need 5 citations?).
  • The first para of the 'Critical reception' section needs an introductory sentance
  • "He also said the song "cemented Kendrick as a leading lady and set the foundation for Pitch Perfect to become a surprisingly bankable film franchise"" - given that the song seems to have been prominent in this series of movies, it would be good to discuss this more if possible
  • "Around the same time, Republic senior VP and head of radio and video promotion David Nathan promoted the track by saying, "Anyone that has a preteen knows 'Cups'. Pitch Perfect is a cultural phenomenon and we're very happy to be a part of it."" - this is unclear. Did he really have much influence by saying that? (and where did he say it?). Surely the music company did stuff to encourage radio stations to play the song and promoted it online, etc, which would likely have been more effective.
  • "The song was moderately successful outside the US. "Cups (When I'm Gone)" experienced similar success in Canada," - seems contraditory
Has been sorted Ceoil (talk) 05:32, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Her post showed a photograph of an overturned cup in the midst of flour and dough; she tagged it with "#coveredinflour"" - trivia
Removed Ceoil (talk) 05:48, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In April 2016, 11-year-old Cruz Beckham covered the track in an Instagram video" - relevance?
Had been Removed Ceoil (talk) 05:48, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Where people covering Kendrick's version of the song, or the version Kendrick was herself covering? (and how can we tell!) Nick-D (talk) 00:21, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As there's been no response to my comments for 3 weeks (though I note that Ceoil has actioned some of them), I'm shifting to oppose. As the nominator hasn't been responding to comments here and has made very few edits to the article singe the nomination started, I'd suggest that this nomination be closed. Nick-D (talk) 05:19, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nick, if you might give 5 days or so will address further. The nominator seems a bit peeved and fed up, which happens to us all. Ceoil (talk) 05:21, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Please ping me if that happens. It looks like the nominator has abandoned this nomination after people have taken the time to review the article, which is poor form to put things mildly. Nick-D (talk) 05:24, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review edit

Not much to do with only a couple of images used. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 06:24, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Request for the coordinators edit

@FAC coordinators: , please go ahead and close the nomination. I think this is going to be another lost cause like "Everything I Wanted". I respond to some of the editors and none of them replied. With school also going on and people who are going to oppose the nomination soon, that will take a huge toll on my mental health. The Ultimate Boss (talk) 23:56, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Placeholder Ceoil edit

In case this is archived. Ceoil (talk) 12:29, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Ceoil, just to let you know that this is up and running again. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:02, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Gog, I have been reading through and intend to review in next few days. Sorry for delay! Ceoil (talk) 22:08, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As an update, working through a copy edit and leaning support. Ceoil (talk) 14:25, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Kyle Peake edit

The article does mostly look to be in proper shape months after my GA review, though it is not following the MOS:TABLECAPTION guidelines. Summary should be retitled to synopsis, plus composition would be better having its own section entitled composition and lyrics even if that is only one para since background covers over three paras currently. Also, how about adding another image since there is only one right now outside of the cover art? --K. Peake 13:51, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support from LOVI33 edit

I supported this article once before and I still think it is ready for FA. You have a support from me! LOVI33 15:24, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

SandyGeorgia edit

I engaged at Wikipedia:Peer review/Cups (song)/archive1, so my comments here may be abbreviated. The article is considerably improved from the last FAC. Reviewing this version from 9 Dec:

  • On the MOS-y and prose things I usually check first for overall preparedness, image caption punc is good, use of dashes/hyphens is good, no MOS:SANDWICH, you can keep your dates consistent with this script, I don't spot any MOS:LQ issues, there is no scourge of however, subsequently, overall, in total and that ilk, but please review the uses of also, as some may be redundant (see User:Tony1 writing exercises for help). Citations look now to be consistently formatted and complete, and reliable, but the detailed source check by someone else will look at each one more closely. In other words, the article appears at first glance to be well-prepared for presentation at FAC.
  • External links: to the best of my knowledge (which is incomplete), because this link does not have the Youtube "official" blue checkmark by it, we can't link to it, because we do not know it's copyright status. (Someone else might doublecheck if I have this right.) See, for example, the blue mark beside the uploader on the Vanity Fair Youtube, which indicates it is an official Youtube channel, similar to the Anna Kendrick video.
  • The vid has 6.4M views. I think we're ok. Ceoil (talk) 00:12, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am uncertain if there is a WikiProject guideline that impacts article organization, but it seems odd to find "Critical reception" placed so early in the article. I am unsure how the article might be differently organized or if there is a guideline somewhere, so please ignore me if I'm off track :)
  • The difference vs most song or album articles is that this is essentially an article about a video. I'm mostly ok with the structure, although there is no clear description of the song available from the TOC (considering that most articles are not read from top to bottom, but rather search for the area they are curious about). Thinking this through...which may take some aching and time :) Ceoil (talk) 00:19, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • On "Critical reception", a bit more of what is recommended at WP:RECEPTION might be employed. That is, rather than seeing the section start off with what one critic said, we should see themes in the paragraphs. For example, as the third paragraph starts off with a theme (Many music critics preferred the film version of the song over the remix), the other could as well.
Prose
  • This could start off with some way that doesn't require the nested parentheses: "Cups" (officially titled "Cups (Pitch Perfect's "When I'm Gone")") is a song ... perhaps ...
    "Cups (Pitch Perfect's "When I'm Gone")", also known by the simpler "Cups", is a song ...

I'll stop here for now; the article looks well prepared for FAC, but I would hope to hear from Ceoil on the organizational structure before I continue, and wonder where things stand on Nick-D's comments. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:55, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments edit

Although the article has seen vast improvements since the last FAC, I regret to say I am leaning oppose, based on prose issues

  • The lead introduces Kendrick as a singer and actress, while she is better known as an actress
  • but instead of using percussion, incorporates a cup game in this case, the cups are the percussion; "but" is incorrect
  • The song was incorporated into a mash-up titled "Freedom! '90 x Cups" released on November 21, 2017. It includes verses from George Michael's "Freedom! '90" and "Cups (When I'm Gone)". A full-length collaborative video for the mash-up was released on the same day. These three sentences can be merged into one brief sentence
  • The Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) certified the single triple platinum and it reached the top 20 in Canada and the Netherlands Kinda awkward; probably mention the RIAA certification along with the previous mention of the US?

And that's from the lead only... I haven't thoroughly examined the prose, but some issues that I picked from random sectinos:

  • "When I'm Gone" was soon referred to as "The Cup Song" by whom?
  • The quote of Kendrick's interview with Vanity Fair basically just reiterates what's already mentioned in the previous paragraph
Sorted Ceoil (talk) 05:17, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The "Background and composition" section is too sprawling; the last two penultimate paragraphs can be separated into a single "Release" section, for example
  • Single-word quotations in the Critical reception section are not useful in adding critique (i.e. Allie Fasanella of Teen Vogue labeled Kendrick's version of the song "amazing".)
  • less-enthusiastic
  • Certain sources such as HollywoodLife, Teen Vogue, E! Online are not professional music sources (as opposed to i.e. Billboard, AllMusic)
Sorted Ceoil (talk) 05:12, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • No improvements in the Commercial performance ("Sales") section since I last raised my concern regarding WP:CHARTTRAJ

The editors can call me ruthless, but I have to say I am not confident that this article is ready for FA. It may be ready after an intensive copyedit, but not in this current state. I am open to discussion on prose issues, nonetheless. HĐ (talk) 04:54, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ruthless is good in FAc terms HĐ; all nominators should have dealing sources of fear as a primary motivation. Ceoil (talk) 05:58, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Close nomination edit

HĐ and Nick-D, I don't want to fight. I am sick of fighting if everyone on this site. If you are certain this is not ready for FA, and are going to oppose it. I'll go ahead and asked for the nomination to be closed. This has done nothing but affect me mentally and physically. After two months of editing the articles, and spending hours on end improving the article and editors still opposing. That makes me very very depressed. I do want to thank Ceoil a lot for helping improve the article. There is not point in improving the article for FA because it was a lost cause from the start. This song has given me so many memories. I wanted to get it to FA status to honor it, but it looks like that is not going to happen.

After these experiences. I am going to retire from Wikipedia and focus on school and my music career. @FAC coordinators: , please close this. Thank you. The Ultimate Boss (talk) 06:06, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@The Ultimate Boss: Guess that's better for you. FAC is not a place where you can get a wishlist of which articles you want to promote. As I said, FAC is a ruthless place, but for the betterment of the encyclopedia and certainly not for the sense of one's personal fulfillment. Good luck with your personal life, HĐ (talk) 06:20, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@HĐ:, Yes. I am a dumbass who knows nothing about FA. You are right! I have been here for over 2 years and no nothing! I nominated “Cups” to for FA to better the encyclopedia in the place first. Just to let you know. I’m not a child. I was taught to hit back to those who are jerks. 👊 The Ultimate Boss (talk) 06:37, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@FAC coordinators: I believe we could not proceed with this behavior. Please go ahead and archive the nomination, HĐ (talk) 08:33, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I would be willing to give latitude here on the grounds of the nom's apparent age, that the article is so close, the vast improvement they implemented since this and last FAC, and, eh, that I'm invested in the article now. Yes there is attitude here, but its not malicious, it's more end of tether, given there was two quick succession opposes this night, after both myself and Sandy saw light at the end of the tunnel this morning. Who wouldn't be a bit angsty at that? HĐ, for what's its worth, your review so far has been most helpful, more guidance please; if you are willing to continue to help, am listening. Ceoil (talk) 09:15, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Ceoil, given that this is the nominator's second request I think that I am going to have to archive the nom. Nevertheless I do so reluctantly and I agree with your analysis. Would it be possible to continue working on this off-FAC, albeit in a low key way? The Ultimate Boss, for what it is worth, I believe that you have done exceedingly well with this article, and you are not the first to find the FAC process frustrating. (My last FAC discussion ran to 20,000 words, and that was on the back of 30 consecutive successful FACs. I was ready to chew nails by the end.) Nevertheless I believe that while tough, it is fair. Good luck with school and your music and my best wishes. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:36, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Gog, its your call and am inclined to trust your judgement. Anyway, agree; maybe archiving for now is for the best hard as it may be for the OP. There is a lot of good advice to work from re Nick and HĐ's feedback. If Ultimate Boss is still willing, I think, even within a few weeks, we can comeback with an offering that should have a much smoother path. I appreciate you mentioning that even old hands can sometimes have difficult FACs - UB, thats why earning the star is of value, nothing good ever came easy. Ceoil (talk) 15:45, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for all the work, Ceoil; Ultimate Boss, good luck with school and your music, and should you come back to this later, we are happy to help. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:01, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 13 December 2020 [15].

Meteorological history of Hurricane Michael edit

Nominator(s): NoahTalk 23:37, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Hurricane Michael's meteorological history. Keep in mind that this article contains some technical aspects due to its nature (too much for a main storm article); I have attempted to dumb them down to the best of my ability, but that was difficult for some items. NoahTalk 23:37, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Images are freely licensed (t · c) buidhe 00:24, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • The infobox says the Caymans were impacted, but I don't see that in the text
  • Which specific NWS documents are being copied vs just cited?
  • Nothing has been copied word for word from the source. NoahTalk 01:00, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The usage of the information contained in all these documents. NoahTalk 01:55, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you're just using information, not copying content, the article should use citations but not an attribution template. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:11, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN24: don't see those initials at the source, and then Landsea is cited as Chris in the next ref
  • Removed the initials and changed to Christopher per the NHC staff page (changed this at the template). NoahTalk 01:00, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN25: the lab is the publisher in this case, and why include location here when it isn't present in other refs?
  • Fixed at the same template as mentioned earlier. NoahTalk 01:00, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN27 is incomplete
  • Filled it out completely. NoahTalk 01:00, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, but it doesn't seem to match what's at the source link? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:39, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The current source link goes to a republishing of the original (archived version). Which one should be used? The first one or the current one? NoahTalk 01:53, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay... it should be fine as is then. NoahTalk 20:56, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Date formatting is inconsistent
  • Fixed on one template and created a DMY style template for articles that have similar date formats. NoahTalk 01:00, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • What makes Air-Worldwide a high-quality reliable source? Nikkimaria (talk) 16:08, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, with the caveat that I reviewed the article prior to FAC, and identified any issues I had with the article. My only slight concern was whether the article should've been split in the first place (given that the main Michael article is still on the short side), but assuming that article will be expanded, then this individual MH article would be needed. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 15:35, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, well-written article. ~ Destroyer🌀🌀 16:34, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I do not believe we need an article on this, even with the main storm article expanded. The focus should be on the main storm article instead.--Jasper Deng (talk) 09:33, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. This article plus the main article on the hurricane add up to less than 7500 words, much of which is duplicated. That would not be a particularly long FA, so I see no reason for a separate article on the meteorological history yet. I am not going to oppose because I don't think there's consensus at FAC that "merge to main article" is a valid oppose reason, but I am disinclined to do a full review because I suspect a future merge is likely -- this is something that's happened at least once or twice in the past with small hurricane FAs. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:03, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I opened a merge discussion myself despite the standing moratorium as it shouldn't prevent us from improving articles. Merging the explanations as to how Michael did what it did would help people understand better. NoahTalk 12:32, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Withdrawn by nominator.

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 13 December 2020 [16].

Biblical criticism edit

Nominator(s): Jenhawk777 (talk) 02:03, 11 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the history, major types, and impact of Biblical criticism. Biblical criticism permanently changed our understanding of the Bible, which in turn, has permanently changed our Western culture. This is an important topic. This article is thorough, makes complex concepts clear and accessible, discusses both pros and cons, strengths and conflicts, and does so better than any other article in any other online source on this topic that I have ever seen. This is, and should be, among Wikipedia's best because of the significance of the topic. It's obscure to the average person, and it shouldn't be. Jenhawk777 (talk) 02:03, 11 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

SG comments edit

Moving all of my section to the talk page of this FAC, as the FAC is now so long and filled with templates that it is causing a problem with the entire page. (A reminder please, not to use templates on this page like smiley faces, as they cause the entire FAC page to reach template transclusion limits, that cuts off other FACs on the page and in archives.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:13, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I didn't know and no one said before this. I have now removed them all. Hope that helps. Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:05, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review—pass edit

  • Images appear to be freely licensed
  • Too many images in "Textual" and "Contemporary developments" sections. This causes sandwiching which is against MOS. Suggest removing some images or putting them side-by side. (IMO, the "Contemporary developments" section looks better without any images at all: I don't know how the physical appearance of any of these people helps advance my understanding of biblical criticism). (t · c) buidhe 12:36, 11 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Images removed. 21:04, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
User:Buidhe images are still changing (see talk); a new review will be needed further down the road. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:28, 13 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User:Buidhe Hello! I am so glad to see you here. I removed the images of people, agreeing with you that they didn't further understanding, so Contemporary developments is now image free, as you suggested, and textual has fewer. No more sandwiching. I added one new image at the front by the lead if you want to check it. I believe it is copyright free and had its alt text. I also had a question about including a diagram of Wellhausen's theory that's in German. Do you have an opinion about including an image that isn't in English? File:WellhausensTheory.png Jenhawk777 (talk) 03:49, 13 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I can read Czech, but I highly doubt that most enwiki readers can. I cannot recommend the inclusion of foreign language graphics; however, it wouldn't be too difficult to recreate this image in English using a free flowchart generator. (t · c) buidhe 12:45, 13 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Okay then. I can't read Czech but meine Deutsch is -- mediocre anyway. I tried looking up Flowcharts and couldn't find it. Can you direct me? Jenhawk777 (talk) 16:51, 13 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I thought it was a WP tool! I will google it, thanx! Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:39, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User:Buidhe So what do you think of the image changes? Are they good? Jenhawk777 (talk) 18:11, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I am satisfied with the images in their current state. (t · c) buidhe 18:17, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yay! Thank you. I believe they will remain stable as they are now too. No reason to make other changes. Thanx again Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:52, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User:Buidhe Would you mind marking these as resolved, or striking through them, or something so they don't appear active? I would appreciate it. Jenhawk777 (talk) 09:15, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User:Buidhe Am I being paranoid? I am afraid there is a connection between no one else showing up to review this and it looking like there are things that haven't been done. I would appreciate your help with that. Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:10, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, see my essay. It is a very long article. It was nominated before bringing in all the previous supporters to a new peer review to make sure all ducks are in a row. It was nominated while a source review was unfinished. Under that scenario, it will be difficult to get people to show up. (If it were my article, I would split it to two articles, history and contemporary, start a peer review, and invite all previous participants first. Get two FAs out of it, each more digestible, each more likely to be reviewed. But that is just an opinion. From someone who never supports 10,000 words of prose and prefers tight use of summary style.) And reviewers will be shy when the previous supports were evidenced to have been premature. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:44, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User:SandyGeorgia I addressed most of this below, but I will add here that prior supporters passed only the aspects they reviewed: the editor who reviewed images passed the images, which have once again passed, which indicates that particular support was not premature. The editors who reviewed the prose - which has not yet been re-reviewed here - passed the prose, and there is nothing to indicate that was premature. The editors involved in reviewing the references found problems, and I contacted each of them to come take another look before I renominated, believing I had fixed them all because I was only focusing on their accuracy and not formatting. I don't believe it's a fair comment to say what support was there was premature. The passes and holds were for different aspects of the review. No one else ever did a formatting review like yours. Jenhawk777 (talk) 00:27, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't see the need to strike comments beyond clearly stating that they have been resolved. However, as requested I have marked as passed. (t · c) buidhe 23:28, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User:Buidhe Your essay? User:SandyGeorgia linked an essay of hers that I read twice, and she linked an essay of User:Tony1 that I also read, and I have looked back over both pages to see if I missed yours somewhere, but I don't find a reference to an essay of yours. I would never ignore something like that - not knowingly.
Sorry, I see now this was a comment by User:SandyGeorgia and not User:Buidhe. Jenhawk777 (talk) 00:14, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I did ask someone to look the article over before nominating. They did, and then they left and were out of contact for a good while. I queried them, and got no response, so I took that to mean they were done. Clearly, any and all confusion about this was mine, but I had reason to believe the article's only problems were a few references that I had since repaired, and that all its ducks were indeed in a row. I apologize for any problems my inexperience has created.
No one, and nowhere that I can find in any set of instructions, did anyone ever tell me to contact prior reviewers - though I did in fact do so on my own when I was looking for a previewer. They mostly declined to get involved again. What can I do about this?
Splitting the article in two is an interesting idea, but despite its length I am unsure of the wisdom of this, as most of these topics are already separate pages, and the topic itself is long and complex and correctly encompasses a lot of subtopics. But if others agree it would be a good thing to do, I will cooperate.
Thank you for responding to my request. I apologize for my ignorance of protocol. Jenhawk777 (talk) 00:08, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think you are referring to SandyGeorgia's comments/essays linked, not mine. I personally don't think that there would be benefit to splitting the article, although I could be persuaded otherwise. (t · c) buidhe 00:11, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I see that now. Sorry. Jenhawk777 (talk) 00:15, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Axl edit

  • The first sentence: "... the belief that reconstructing its history according to contemporary understanding will correctly illuminate the texts." The word "illuminate" here might be confused with "illuminated manuscripts". How about something like "... the belief that reconstructing its history according to contemporary understanding will lead to the correct interpretation"? Axl ¤ [Talk] 12:05, 12 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User:Axl Okay, sure. Done. Jenhawk777 (talk) 03:49, 13 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Axl ¤ [Talk] 10:15, 13 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The second sentence: "This basis in critical thinking set it apart from the precritical, the anti–critical and the post–critical methods that came before and after it." I can infer what "precritical" and "post-critical" mean, but I have no idea what "anti-critical" means. Does "anti-critical" come before or after? Also, it seems odd that "anti-critical" and "post-critical" are hyphenated, but "precritical" is not. Axl ¤ [Talk] 12:13, 12 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User:Axl I wondered about defining those. So I went and made those changes. If you don't like them we can change them some other way. Jenhawk777 (talk) 03:49, 13 October 2020 (UTC) [reply]
I am still not entirely sure what "anticritical" means, but I take your word for it that this is the correct definition. Axl ¤ [Talk] 10:17, 13 October 2020 (UTC) [reply]
It's what it sounds like. It's google-able - is that a word? Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:13, 13 October 2020 (UTC) [reply]
User:Axl Is there a way you can think of in which I might explain it better? Jenhawk777 (talk) 09:16, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Eh, I am fine with the current statement, thanks. Axl ¤ [Talk] 12:37, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Cool Thanx. Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:04, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • From "History", subsection "Eighteenth century", paragraph 3: ""Despite the difference in attitudes between the thinkers and the historians [of the German enlightenment], all viewed history as the key to unlocking the meaning of life." This sentence seems to start with a quotation mark, but there is no closing quotation mark. Is this supposed to be a direct quote? Axl ¤ [Talk] 19:59, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes! It's a common error of mine. I apparently forget what I'm doing by the end of the sentence - sort of like walking into a room and wondering why you're there... Fixed. Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:08, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Axl ¤ [Talk] 22:18, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "History", subsection "Eighteenth century", paragraph four mentions "English deism", while paragraph five mentions "British deism". Perhaps this is a minor distinction between "English" and "British". Is there a significant difference here? Axl ¤ [Talk] 22:43, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    No there's no difference, that's just a mistake on my part. It is referred to both ways in different sources and I wasn't careful enough and I missed changing the one. Fixed now. Thank you so much for catching that. Jenhawk777 (talk) 01:03, 23 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Axl ¤ [Talk] 11:06, 24 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is an anomaly with reference 19 (RN Soulen & RK Soulen, Handbook of biblical criticism (third ed.), Westminster John Knox Press. ISBN 9780664223144). Axl ¤ [Talk] 11:12, 24 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I created this yesterday by misreading another problem. I am traveling today and will have limited access for the next two days. I will fix the mess I made as soon as I can. Jenhawk777 (talk) 12:58, 24 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like Quebec99 corrected the problem. Jenhawk, if you can confirm that the problem is now fixed, that would be helpful. Axl ¤ [Talk] 13:24, 24 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well, either a miracle occurred (humor) or Quebec99 fixed it. It is fixed. Thank you! Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:42, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. (Also, thank you, Quebec99.) Axl ¤ [Talk] 11:53, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • From "History", subsection "Eighteenth century", paragraph 4: "Rogerson adds that, among the early scholars of the Reformation who are considered to have laid the intellectual foundations of biblical criticism, are...". This statement is a little clumsy. I don't think that we need to say that this is Rogerson's opinion. (I note that the reference used is Baier, not Rogerson.) How about: "Three Reformation scholars who laid the intellectual foundations of biblical criticism are...". Axl ¤ [Talk] 11:40, 24 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Vastly superior. Jenhawk777 (talk) 12:58, 24 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I have changed it. Axl ¤ [Talk] 13:21, 24 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you so much! Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:36, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • From "History", subsection "Eighteenth century", subsection "Historical Jesus: the first quest", paragraph 2: "Semler effectively refuted Reimarus' biblical arguments using biblical criticism." Did Semler really effectively refute Reimarus? Axl ¤ [Talk] 11:59, 24 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I will go back and find what source claimed that. I don't remember if it was one I used. I'll find it or remove it - in a couple of days. I should be home by Tuesday at the latest. Jenhawk777 (talk) 12:58, 24 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I am more concerned by the semantics of the phrase "effectively refuted". This implies that Semler has disproven Reimarus. Axl ¤ [Talk] 13:42, 24 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I am home! I am so glad! Questioning that phrase was a good call on your part. I checked 8 more sources and now think 'effectively' is an overstatement. I have replaced it. Please give it a look and see if it's better in your thinking as well as mine. Thank you! Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:36, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. The third party description of Semler's work by Schweitzer is much better. Axl ¤ [Talk] 11:59, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • From "History", subsection "Nineteenth century", paragraph 1: "Professor Emeritus of New Testament Studies Richard Soulen and Professor of Systematic Theology Kendall Soulen write in the Handbook of biblical criticism." This is only a minor point, but shouldn't "biblical criticism" be capitalized as part of the title of the book? Also, is it really necesssary to state this source in the text? A reference to the handbook is already provided. Axl ¤ [Talk] 12:44, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes. I didn't think it was necessary and it wasn't there originally, but GA requested it, so I added it and should have capitalized it as it is in the title of the book and not followed WP titling - just habit. Fixed now. Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:36, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I am not happy about leaving the name of the book in the text. I am not convinced that the book is so important that it must be mentioned. Axl ¤ [Talk] 12:06, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If you're not happy then I am not happy. It's gone. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:14, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. Axl ¤ [Talk] 14:36, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "History", subsection "Nineteenth century", subsection "Historical Jesus: the second quest", paragraph 2: "In 1896, Martin Kähler wrote The So-called Historical Jesus and the Historic Biblical Christ. It critiqued the quest's methodology, with a reminder of the limits of historical inquiry, saying it is impossible to separate one Jesus from another since the Jesus of history is only known through documents about the Christ of faith." Separating "one Jesus from another" sounds a little clumsy. How about "separate the historical Jesus from Christ the Messiah"? Axl ¤ [Talk] 12:47, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Done. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:14, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Axl ¤ [Talk] 14:38, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "History", subsection "Twentieth century", paragraph 5: "The rise of redaction criticism closed it by bringing about a greater emphasis on diversity." Does "it" refer to the "massive debate" mentioned in the preceding sentence? If so, how about "The rise of redaction criticism closed this debate by bringing about a greater emphasis on diversity." [Would the participants of the "massive debate" be called "mass debaters"?] Axl ¤ [Talk] 14:55, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I like it! Done. Mass debaters - that was humor wasn't it? Maintaining one's sense of humor when under stress is an important mantra of mine. I value it in others as well. Thank you!Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:12, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hehe, thanks. :-) Axl ¤ [Talk] 11:15, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • From "Major Methods", subsection "Textual criticism", paragraph 1: "The dates of these manuscripts range from c.110–125 (the 𝔓52 papyrus) to the introduction of printing in Germany in the 15th century." I am not familiar with the symbol used for the P52 papyrus. I see that the article "Rylands Library Papyrus P52" uses a different symbol: 𝔅52. (As an aside, I was unaware that the earliest surviving documentation of the New Testament is from the second century CE. That's very interesting.) Axl ¤ [Talk] 13:32, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    P52 is the correct designation for the Ryland's fragment. I believe B52 is a fragment of Homer's Iliad, though I am not a classics scholar. I think it is in a museum in Berlin (hence the B) and that it has been used as a comparison for dating, The Ryland's fragment has been dated anywhere from the first century to the third. It was found in Egypt and scholars think it would have taken some time after being written for the papyrus to travel there. It's part of the ongoing debate about when the gospel of John was written. It is interesting! I am so glad to hear someone outside my obscure little field say so! :-) Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:44, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I have no doubt that "P52" is the correct designation. My concern is with the symbol used: 𝔓52. Is this the symbol used in the reference? Axl ¤ [Talk] 14:12, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
So since you asked, I went and checked to be sure, and yes it is and referenced accordingly on pages 77, 78 and 79.Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:56, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Since you have re-checked this matter, I am taking your word for it. Thank you. Axl ¤ [Talk] 13:40, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Axl, P is just a filing number that stands for papyrus, that's all. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:12, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • From "Major Methods", subsection "Textual criticism", paragraph 4: "Textual scholar Kurt Aland explains that charting the variants in the New Testament shows it is 62.9% variant-free." Is that actually what he says? It may be more helpful (and honest?) to say that 37.1% of the New Testament's text has more than one variant. Axl ¤ [Talk] 13:40, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, if I understood it correctly, yes. On page 29 there is a chart: Table 1. The Table lists, by book, three categories: the total number of verses, the total number of variant free verses, and what percentage of the overall text they represent. The total of these totals, given at the bottom of the Table has 7947 verses in the New Testament, 4999 as variant free, and 62.9 percent as the total overall percentage. The next paragraph says "nearly two-thirds of the New Testament texts in the seven editions of the Greek New Testament (Tischendorf, Westcott-Hort, von Soden, Vogels, Merk and Bover with the text of Nestle-Aland, considered the best at the time of Aland's work) ... demonstrate a far greater agreement among the Greek texts than textual scholars suspected." 62.9% is in the source but 37.1% isn't. I think that if I wrote that in, it would qualify as Synth or OR or something equally terrible and earth shattering. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:44, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. Axl ¤ [Talk] 14:17, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • From "Major Methods", subsection "Textual criticism", paragraph 5: "Over time the texts descended from 'A' that share the error, and those from 'B' that do not share it, will diverge further, but later texts will still be identifiable as descended from one or the other because of the presence or absence of that original mistake"." This sentence has a closing quotation mark " but does not appear to have an opening quotation mark. (I am pleased to see Bart Ehrman mentioned in the article. He is particularly fond of parablepsis due to homeoteleuton.) Axl ¤ [Talk] 13:48, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Dang it. Quotation marks will be the death of me I swear. Fixed. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:44, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. (I was wondering if scribe 'J' introduced an error into the manuscript of scribe 'E'.) Axl ¤ [Talk] 14:20, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hah ha! I love your wit! Scribe J did indeed introduce an error into the manuscript of scribe E! He he! I love it. Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:56, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • From "Major methods", subsection "Textual criticism", paragraph 1: "Textual criticism examines the text itself," and paragraph 5: "Textual criticism studies the differences between these families." Perhaps this is only a trivial complaint, but textual criticism itself doesn't examine or study anything. Rather, textual criticism is a technique used by scholars ("critics"?) to examine/study texts. Axl ¤ [Talk] 13:46, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Done Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:38, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Axl ¤ [Talk] 01:11, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • From "Major methods", subsection "Textual criticism", paragraph 5: "Sorting out the wealth of source material is complex, so textual families were sorted into categories tied to geographical areas. The divisions of the New Testament textual families were Alexandrian (also called the "Neutral text"), Western (Latin translations), and Eastern (used by Antioch and Constantinople)." It is unclear to me why the past tense is used in these two sentences. Is the historical context of this sorting important? If so, perhaps add a year/time period when it was done? If not, perhaps change it to the present tense ("are sorted" and "are Alexandrian")? Axl ¤ [Talk] 13:57, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Biblical criticism as it is defined in this article is a thing of the past. What was created in the German Enlightenment ended in the second half of the twentieth century. It has progeny that live on, but BC itself ended. This whole article is historical. I don't know how important that is. I use the past tense wherever possible to convey that historical criticism as it was fashioned in the 1700s has ended, but there are 'aspects' that continue, so that creates some problems and confusion in communicating that I am unsure how to make clearer. I said it in the historical section at the end of the twentieth century. If you can figure out a way to make it clearer, that would be genuinely appreciated. Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:38, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    User:Axl That was a super good catch. Pat yourself on the back, please, from me. I have gone back and rewritten parts of the lead from the first sentence on in hopes of clarifying. Please take a look see and tell me if it is clearer now. Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:16, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, that seems to be fine. Axl ¤ [Talk] 03:18, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • From "Major methods", subsection "Textual criticism", subsection "Problems of textual criticism", paragraph 3: " Some scholars have recently called to abandon older approaches to textual criticism." This phrase is a little clunky. Perhaps something like: "Some modern scholars have abandoned older approaches to textual criticism"? Axl ¤ [Talk] 15:59, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    If I use the terms 'modern' or 'contemporary' someone inevitably jumps all over me even though they are perfectly good terms imo. How about twenty first century scholars? Even though the ref doesn't actually say that, it's a reasonable rephrase I think. I hope. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:11, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Axl ¤ [Talk] 14:42, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • In "Major methods", subsection "Source criticism", subsection "Source criticism of the Old Testament: Wellhausen's hypothesis", the diagram of the modern documentary hypothesis requires a caption and a source. Axl ¤ [Talk] 16:20, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I did it! I did it! I can't believe I figured it out! The alt is there and everything! Whoohoo! Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:11, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Axl ¤ [Talk] 14:46, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • From "Major methods", subsection "Source criticism", subsection "Source criticism of the Old Testament: Wellhausen's hypothesis", paragraph 2: "Wellhausen said P (for the Priestly source) was composed during the exile under the influence of Ezechiel." The P source was already introduced in the first sentence of the paragraph. Axl ¤ [Talk] 16:32, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I reorganized a bit, see if that works. The dates are the thing. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:11, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I have adjusted the text slightly. Axl ¤ [Talk] 11:02, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You adjust anything you please anytime you please. I am grateful. I wish someone who likes to do reference checks would show up. You are the only one here right now, so I am really happy every time I see your name. Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:18, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:12, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • From "Major methods", subsection "Source criticism", subsection "Source criticism of the Old Testament: Wellhausen's hypothesis", paragraph 2: "(R represents the redactor.)" This sentence requires some context and a reference. Axl ¤ [Talk] 16:23, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    It is now in the subtext of the image where it belongs. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:11, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Axl ¤ [Talk] 14:46, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • In "Major methods", subsection "Source criticism", subsection "Source criticism of the Old Testament: Wellhausen's hypothesis", could you add a sentence about the Redactor to help provide some context to the diagram? Axl ¤ [Talk] 13:51, 13 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    No problem. Done. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:00, 13 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I am unsure why this is a quotation, presumably from Peter Enns? Axl ¤ [Talk] 12:48, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry! It is a quote. I have now added the attribution. Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:34, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that this needs to be a quote. I have paraphrased the information and removed the quotation. Axl ¤ [Talk] 01:17, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
okayJenhawk777 (talk) 19:12, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • From "Major methods", subsection "Source criticism", subsection "Source criticism of the Old Testament: Wellhausen's hypothesis", paragraph 3: "Later scholars of the Newer Documentary Thesis inferred more sources." I am unsure what the "Newer Documentary Thesis" is. Is it the same as Wellhausen's (1878) description of the Documentary hypothesis? Axl ¤ [Talk] 13:55, 13 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I added an intro sentence that I think clarifies it and pulls the whole paragraph together better. See if you agree and I will change it if it is insufficient. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:00, 13 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's great, thanks. Axl ¤ [Talk] 12:50, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • From "Major methods", subsection "Source criticism", subsection "Source criticism of the Old Testament: Wellhausen's hypothesis", paragraph 3: " Proponents of this view assert three sources for the Pentateuch, with the Deuteronomist as the oldest source, and the Torah assembled from a central core document, the Elohist, then supplemented by fragments taken from other sources." This doesn't seem to be "three sources". Are there perhaps two major sources (Elohist and Deuteronomist) and several minor sources? Axl ¤ [Talk] 12:52, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    User:Axl bless your heart for hanging in with me. The three sources are referenced here are, as you say, the Deuteronomist, the Elohist and the fragments -- which could certainly be seen as minor, I suppose, but are not qualified in that manner in the reference. It doesn't call them major or minor, just three sources. Also, I went through your last edit and the I think I fixed all the issues you found. Thank you for those and for changing all the dates to year. I use the template and date is what it has. I will change that manually in the future. Axl thank you. I don't feel like I can say it enough. Thank you. Jenhawk777 (talk) 07:34, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. I am unhappy with the implication that "other sources" are characterized as a single source, added to the other two sources (E and D). I call into question the suitability of the reference (John Van Seters), at least on this point. If you really think that Van Seters is the best reference for this point, perhaps we should change the text to something like: "Proponents of this view assert that the Torah was assembled mainly from the Elohist and Deuteronomist sources, supplemented by fragments taken from other sources." Axl ¤ [Talk] 14:18, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Van Seters is a well known Distinguished professor, and one of his specialties is the Hebrew Bible - he has a page here on WP John Van Seters. Here is a review of his book: [1] I went back to the source and checked others, and tweaked the sentence a little, adding one additional comment. Don't be put off by the sources of ancient literature being fragments. It's just the way it is for everything. In truth, all the sources of the Pentateuch are fragments, the scholars have assumed that some of them were originally whole documents, but every one of those assumptions have been challenged. Here, the Elohist is assumed to be a complete document, but later critics of this theory took that assumption apart. It's the way scholarship progresses. The best way to get your theory forward is to disassemble the previous one. Jenhawk777 (talk) 05:17, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I accept that Van Seters is, in general, a reliable source for information about biblical criticism. I don't accept that Van Seters is a reliable source for the implication that two sources plus fragments from several other sources equals a total of three sources. (In case you're worried, I am not gonna oppose over this matter.) Axl ¤ [Talk] 10:59, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Axl This one has not been struck though it has been adjusted in the text. Is the change sufficient? Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:33, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No. My point has not been fixed. I am not striking this through. But let's not obsess over this matter. I am not gonna oppose over it. Let's move on to more productive discussion and editing. Axl ¤ [Talk] 13:43, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • From "Form criticism", subsection "Critique of form criticism", paragraph 1: "Instead, in the 1970s, New Testament scholar E. P. Sanders wrote that: "There are no hard and fast laws of the development of the Synoptic tradition. On all counts the tradition developed in opposite directions. It became both longer and shorter, both more or less detailed, and both more and less Semitic. 'Even the tendency to use direct discourse for indirect, which was uniform in the post-canonical material which we studied, was not uniform in the Synoptics themselves'..."." There seems to be a double layer of quotation here. Why is this? Axl ¤ [Talk] 17:05, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Because apparently I have some kind of issue with quotation marks. I was scared by one as a baby and forever after have had a mental block about them! Or something! Anyway, the extras are gone. :-) Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:56, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
lol Thanks for removing the extra quotation marks. (By the way, it is rather a long quotation. Couldn't this be paraphrased? If you really think that we should keep it as a direct quotation, then I shall respect that.) Axl ¤ [Talk] 23:35, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • This must be included as a quote. It's extremely important. It changed everything that came after it.Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:26, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. Axl ¤ [Talk] 11:07, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is a minor inconsistency regarding the punctuation before direct quotations. For example, the last sentence of "Critique of Wellhausen" doesn't have any extra punctuation, but a quotation by N. T. Wright in "Critique of form criticism" includes a comma. Meanwhile, various quotations use a colon. I am unsure what our guideline at Wikipedia is on this matter, so I haven't changed any of them myself. Axl ¤ [Talk] 14:29, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm sure the correct use for introducing a quote is a colon, but I might have copied what was done in the source. Let me know when you find out - or not. :-) Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:26, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    What about this? Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:12, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well, this is still an open question, because we are unsure what the solution is. (Again, I am not gonna oppose over this matter.) Axl ¤ [Talk] 11:05, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Axl Okay, so I don't want anything left unresolved - least of all for you after all the work you've put in here - so I went and looked at every quote. Really. What I found is that most of them have no introductory punctuation at all, beyond the quotes themselves, as they they are part of the sentence structure. For example: "Semler supported the view that revelation was "divine disclosure of the truth perceived through the depth of human experience."
Those that have a comma do so because they are an interruptor in the sentence, yet still part of the sentence structure, which means they require commas on both sides of the quote. For example: "In addition, Reimarus' central question, "How political was Jesus?", continues to be debated in the twenty-first century by theologians and historians such as Wolfgang Stegemann [de], Gerd Thiessen and Craig S. Keener."
For those quotes that use colons, they are independent clauses but connected to the previous complete sentence, so they require either a semi-colon or a colon. For example: Turretin believed in the divine revelation of the Bible, but insisted that revelation must be consistent with nature and in harmony with reason: "For God who is the author of revelation is likewise the author of reason."
I think I did them all in that manner, but as Nikomaria will attest to, I am prone to missing these small details, so even though I checked them, that doesn't mean I'm right! This is my habit however, so chances are it's how they all are written. Is explaining the differences sufficient, or do you think I need to make alterations? I want you happy. Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:39, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I was hoping that Wikipedia had a guideline on the (consistent) formatting of punctuation before quotations. However neither of us found such a guideline. Therefore I suppose that there is nothing for me to complain about. Your rather lengthy recent response implies that you might think that this matter is big deal for me. It is not a big deal. I am striking through the point to show that no further action needs to be taken. Thanks. Axl ¤ [Talk] 22:16, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I understand it's a minor deal for you, but that doesn't make it unimportant to me. I expected a rule too - WP has a rule for everything - but I couldn't find one either. The ones I used above are from "The Brief English Handbook". Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:31, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • From "Major methods", subsection "Redaction criticism", paragraph 1: "Form criticism saw the synoptic writers as mere collectors and focused on the Sitz im Leben as the creator of the texts, whereas redaction criticism deals more positively with the Gospel writers, asserting an understanding of them as theologians of the early church." In this sentence, form criticism is associated with the past tense ("saw") while redaction criticism is associated with the present tense ("deals"). Why is this? Also, we have more personification of form criticism, which continues into the next subsection. Axl ¤ [Talk] 12:12, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Fixed the verb agreement problem. You are the only one who caught that. :-) I have done my best to go through and deal with this, but please note, in the quotes, that's how these are referred to: form criticism does this and it does that. Check and see if I missed any! Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:14, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. Axl ¤ [Talk] 22:59, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • In "Major methods", subsection "Redaction criticism", the diagram of "Relationships between the Synoptic Gospels" requires a reference. Also, I would prefer it to be called perhaps "Correlations between the synoptic gospels" rather than its current title, but I am unsure how difficult this is to change. Axl ¤ [Talk] 23:07, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I have added a reference, but you may want to adjust the formatting in line with the standard that you have applied to the rest of the article. Axl ¤ [Talk] 23:11, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I did not add that illustration. I thought the one above in the section that actually discusses it was entirely sufficient. what does this one have that the other doesn't? But someone wanted it so I left it. Title it however you please. Your ref is good but it has an ISSN instead of an ISBN. Why is that? Does it matter? I really don't understand most of this formatting stuff. Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:48, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The diagram gives percentage values for the correlations between the gospels. I found the reference in the article "Synoptic Gospels". I don't mind keeping it in "Biblical criticism". International Standard Serial Number is used to identify serial publications, i.e. journals and magazines. International Standard Book Number is used to identify books. Axl ¤ [Talk] 10:19, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done then Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:12, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I have changed the caption. I don't know how to alter the title in the image itself, but this is good enough. Axl ¤ [Talk] 11:10, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • From "Major methods", subsection "Literary criticism", subsection "Narrative criticism", paragraph 1: "Historical critics began to recognize the Bible was not being studied in the manner other ancient writings were studied." When did these historical critics begin to recognize this? Axl ¤ [Talk] 13:59, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Axl ¤ [Talk] 20:02, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • From "Major methods", subsection "Literary criticism", subsection "Narrative criticism", paragraph 2: "Narrative criticism analyzes narratives as "a complete tapestry, an organic whole". "It attends to the constitutive features of narratives, such as characterization, setting, plot, literary devices, point of view, narrator, implied author, and implied reader"." This seems to be two separate quotations, placed one after another. This is not elegant. Also, I guess that is not intended to be continuation of Christopher T. Paris' opinion from the previous sentence? Axl ¤ [Talk] 14:36, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Axl ¤ [Talk] 20:02, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Legacy", paragraph 5, mentions "the creation of the modern world itself" and "creating the modern world." I am slightly concerned that "creation/creating" implies a creator, i.e. a conscious agent with deliberate intent. Indeed when I first read the paragraph, I thought that it might be referring to Genesis 1 where God creates everything. Perhaps an alternative such as "mo[u]lding" or "changing" or "forming" might be better? Axl ¤ [Talk] 15:14, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • I take your point. Done. But it was created by a conscious agent with deliberate intent wasn't it? Humans. Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:25, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. (I am not convinced that humans "created the modern world", except perhaps in a metaphorical sense where humans created the modern parts of the world as opposed to the ancient parts of the world, but this isn't relevant to the article.) Axl ¤ [Talk] 02:59, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • In "Legacy", there is a quotation from Fishbane: "our hermeneutical hope is in the indissoluable link between the divine and human textus." The word "indissoluable" is misspelt—it should be "indissoluble". Is the misspelling in the source? Axl ¤ [Talk] 17:36, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't know but can fix it either way. Done. Jenhawk777 (talk) 18:45, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. (I am wary of correcting mistakes in direct quotations. Usually it is better to add the confirmation "[sic]" after the mistake.) Axl ¤ [Talk] 01:17, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I get that, but the MOS does say "insignificant spelling and typographic errors should simply be silently corrected (for example, correct basicly to basically)." [17] Original wording.Jenhawk777 (talk) 03:54, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, thanks. Axl ¤ [Talk] 14:58, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Legacy" has a subsection called "Socio-scientific criticism", but the first phrase is "Social-scientific criticism". Could we have a single consistent phrase please? Axl ¤ [Talk] 18:10, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Gerda edit

Thank you for an article with an amazing scope article, Jen. I'm afraid I'm not at all familiar with academic looks at religious topics, but that may be an advantage for testing how a lay reader may react. I'll skip the lead for now, and can read only in bits at a time. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:50, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

resolved --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:46, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lead image

  • I don't see immediately what that image has to do with the topic, and the caption doesn't help. I think the following image might be more accessible.
    User:SandyGeorgia also wanted that image moved up, so since you are now the second person to ask, I have moved it. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:17, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Perhaps I should say the following on your talk, but it may interest others as well, about indenting and accessibility. There's an essay about it linked from the top of User talk:Drmies, - in a nutshell: when replying within a bulleted list, copy what you find above and add your indent. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:58, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Aaaahhh! I didn't know that! Thank you! Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:55, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

TOC

  • I remember having talked about it long ago, and it looks much to the point in general, almost too much so for my taste. It should help a reader to an overview, and help to jump to a section s/he may be be interested in. For the latter purpose I'd like a bit more context.
    I don't understand. We discussed TOC limits on another article. There is no TOC on this article. The section titles were shortened at Sandy Georgia's request. What additional context would you like to see? Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:17, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    not about limit, - I guess I'll try to explain below. --GA
  • I'd understand "Eighteenth Century" without "Beginnings".
    Okay, done. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:17, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    thank you --GA
  • The "historical Jesus" subheaders look very much alike. Perhaps I'll understand when reading.
    If not let me know and I will see what I can do to fix that. There have been four quests at different times with lulls between them. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:17, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    fine --GA
  • Under "Responses" we have "Methods" - how is that responsive? Same for "Legacy".
    Biblical criticism is a method - so changes in new methods are responses to both its findings and the changes those findings wrought. Legacy embraces all the results of BC, but it can be a category by itself if you don't think it belongs in response. I was limiting the number of categories. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:17, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I'd have Legacy a level higher, and take the other --GA
    A level higher on the page as in physically above responses? A level higher as in fewer colons? Like make it section 3? Then all the reactions and responses could logically be under Legacy I guess, is that what you mean? Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:55, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    It - the TOC - looks good to me now! Will check the "Critique" thing - needed or not? - when reading further. --GA
  • I'd understand "Methods" without "Major".
    This indicates there are minor methods this article doesn't discuss. There are a whole bunch of them. Imo that should remain. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:17, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    accepted --GA
  • Can you word the methods more uniformly, - "Textual" is an adjective, while "Source" is a noun?
    Hmmm, Idk. Textual criticism is the actual name of it, not named by me, and source criticism is the actual name of it as well, also not penned by me. Our WP articles to each of these topics are titled that way, and even if you type in "text criticism", google will direct you to "textual" instead. It seems appropriate to stick with titles that have been long established by those who are in each of these fields. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:17, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, if these are specific terms I'd write them complete, even if repetititive: "Textual criticism", "Source criticism". - I don't believe a header should ever be an adjective alone. Imagine a reader scrolling, and seeing just "Textual". --GA
    OMG I so agree with you! It's how they were originally. Consider that done! Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:55, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't see 2.2.1 and 2.2.2 as methods.
    They are important examples of the method of Source criticism. Examples are necessary and are included in every section. It's impossible to explain what source criticism does without demonstrating it in my way of thinking. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:17, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    accepted --GA
  • What is 2.4.1 "Types" good for?
    Idk. It was added by someone else. I always thought it was an unnecessary addition. This gives me the freedom to remove it. Thank you. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:17, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    fine ;) --GA
  • "Contemporary" is an ambiguous word. I know we should avoid "Current" and similar, but for me, "contemporary is meaningless without saying to what. Bach and his contemporaries, for example.
    I have removed all the uses of contemporary that I could. Those left are in titles of books or articles. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:17, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    thank you --GA

18th century

  • I miss a link to Enlightenment. Common practice: link in both lead and body on first occurrence. I will not list other terms in the following.
    Linked. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:17, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    thank you, did you look for others of the kind? --GA
    I did, but I will continue to do so. Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:55, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I grew up here to no life data (years in brackets) for people with a link.
    I don't understand, could you clarify? Are you saying I should remove all these dates? Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:17, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    please never take anything I say as "you should", - it's my observations, and you can act or not, your free choice. When I mention people with an article, I don't add from when to when they lived, - I only do that for people without article. --GA
    Okay. There are so many dates in this very long article that without dates next to them I think it would become impossible to place people and keep anything straight. With the dates right there, it is difficult but doable. That was my thinking anyway. Sorry for the alarm! Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:55, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    accepted - sometimes, however, a place or school of thinking might help more than dates alone, - we said 18th century in the title, so no big surprise/information that they are from that period --GA
    I get what you are saying - the 18th century did all happen in the 18th century - so true! But who came first or last within that period matters to some readers. A reader can assume I put them in order within each category - which I did in fact try to do - but with dates they can be sure. I have had one or two people ask. I agree it clutters things a bit, but for accuracy's sake I would like to leave them unless you feel very strongly about it. I feel kind of mildly strong about it. Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:33, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "tradition" is an Easter Egg link, because a reader expecting that it will only explain what "tradition" means will skip it and miss a lot, Mosaic authorship. I suggest to include Moses in the piped link, - the linked article will supply a link to Moses for those who don't know who that was.
    I don't understand, Mosaic authorship is the link where tradition is blue, it doesn't define the word tradition. Moses is linked two words later. ??? Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:17, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Trying harder - and coming from a discussion where I was told that Germany is an Easter Egg, because the reader doesn't arrive where expected. Here, the expectation would be tradition, and readers who think they know what tradition is will not click at all. You could pipe to the tradition, at least, indicating that it's a specific tradition. Or you could pipe further, including Moses in the pipe link. I bet someone still reading this article until there knows who Moses was ;) --GA
    Changed to Mosaic tradition, instead of just tradition, and Moses is already linked there, in that same sentence, just two words later.Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:55, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    thank you - and good to link Moses as well because for us unprepared "mosaic" reads like artwork, - no connection to the name apparent. Next question: can a tradition "say" something? ... or is there a better word? --GA
Yes absolutely. Literature 'speaks' to us, traditions 'speak' and plenty of other things that are things can be correctly referenced as saying something. In this case, a tradition was the thing being questioned. It's always legitimate to question tradition. Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:33, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Easy to fix: ref order ascending.
    I'm sorry, I must be tired as well. I don't understand what this means. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:17, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Minor formality to have refs in ascending numerical order, first 6, then 8. It pleases some reviewers ;)
    I thought that was automatically done by WP. I don't know how to do it or not do it! I am trying to be sure that the first reference to any source is always the full reference, but I sometimes go back and refer to an author I previously referenced--often multiple times--because the topic changed. What can I do about that? Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:55, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    "easy" means: if 8 shows before 6, just switch the order of the two. --GA
    I'm sorry if this seems like it's totally freaking me out - because it is! Where the refs are located is 100% driven by content and topic. Part of the work put in on this article was forming a logical order of the presentation of ideas. They can't just be bounced around willy-nilly! I want to do anything you ask, but I am completely bumfuzzled by this! Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:24, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Just that you can rest: it's no longer there. I saw to refs for one fact, and the higher number first, and it was like it in this version, but is no more. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:19, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Too tired for more. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:29, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Next level of replies --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:58, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And another --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:32, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Where are they Gerda? There's nothing here! Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:59, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
They are above, four indents, mostly fine / accept ... - I'm about to read further but will start a new header to avoid edit conflicts. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:13, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

18th century

  • link Old and New Testament, Deuteronomy, Genesis, revelation,
    Damn! I mean, sure, no problem - sorry I missed those. There is no link for revelation, only for the book of Revelation. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:04, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    fine --GA
    Sehr gut. Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:08, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "German Pietism played a role in the rise of biblical criticism through its questioning of religious authority." - I assume that "its" refers to Pietism, but it could also be rise, or criticism. Could that be clearer?
    IDK - I redid it, is it any clearer? Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:04, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    yes --GA
    Gut gewinnen. Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:08, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "for an end to all doctrinal assumptions, giving historical criticism its non-sectarian nature." - that remains a riddle for me, and nature seems a completely different nature than just before ;)
    Okay, I linked nonsectarian and changed nature to character - does that improve anything? Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:04, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    yes --GA
    Done then. Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:08, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The last sentence in the para beginning "German Pietism" is a quote, not attributed, and another riddle, especially "viewed history as the key to unlocking the meaning of life". ??? (Sorry, may be just my insufficient English.)
    OOps! Dr Reill is a German historian. He might be in the German WP. I shortened the quote does that make more sense? It sort of sums up that, despite the different views I just described, they all thought historical understanding was the thing that would unlock the Bible for them.Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:04, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    better shortened, because unlock the Bible and unlock life seem different ;) --GA
    I agree Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:08, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    de:Peter H. Reill seems to be an American historian. No red links in featured articles! - The interlanguage links - which have some blue - have been accepted when defended. If a red link - because it's in the process of being created, please years of birth and death, - THEN it's really needed! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:56, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I did not know no red links was a rule! Thank you! I will check for others. But Reill is blue now so how did you do that still linking him to the Deutsch WP? Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:08, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    He is blue only in German, and direct links to the German Wikipedia should not be used anywhere in article space. Imagine a blind person whose screenreader suddenly tries to pronounce something in German following English rules. In the article is a proper interlanguage link. You'll need to decide if he should have the same name in English or the middle name spelled out. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:48, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I like it how you did it. Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:55, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "John W. Rogerson says" - I conclude from the "says" that he is not from the 18th century, but how about giving years of birth and death for him also, - or introduce him, perhaps also say when he said that?
    He is already blue linked with that info coming up when arrowed over. Do you think it needs to be in the text as well? Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:04, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    blue-linked is true also for the others where you defended more detail, no? How about "wrote" instead of "says", and a year, to put it in perspective? ... actually that's true for many of the other "says" - when? "now"? imagine a reader in ten years. --GA
    Two different categories of people. The people who's dates I defended are the historically significant people who participated in the development of BC. Rogerson is just a modern scholar who writes about it. He himself is not significant to the topic. What he says is. So he is blue-linked and his book is referenced. I can go back and attribute which publication of every scholar it is that I use - but this is already a really long article. Is that really what you want? Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:08, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    How about just "wrote in 20xx" - don't overestimate the readiness of a casual reader to study the source itself. He died in 2018, so can't say it "now" ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:54, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, I don't say that about any other scholar I reference. How about this: "John W. Rogerson writes that there are two twenty-first century views on biblical criticism's origins"? Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:58, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    History is past tense, literature is always referred to in the present tense, but perhaps this should be past as it refers to him and not what. he wrote? Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:00, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I removed it. Jenhawk777 (talk) 03:26, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    accepted --GA
  • A bit surprised that we now get to the Reformation, which was before.
    We don't really. The Reformation, as such, is not discussed. This paragraph mentions an "alternate" theory on BC's origins that's all. It has to be mentioned but not at any length. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:04, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    understand better --GA
  • "having laid the intellectual foundations which bore later fruit:" that is rather flowery language, - is that still what Rogerson says?
    Yes it is still Rogerson. He says on page 297 of History of Christian Thought that there are two views of BC's origins, and one is that the "seeds" of BC were present in Calvin and Luther's writings that "bore fruit" in Pietism. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:04, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    then say so somehow, please, or it sounds like factual Wikipedia voice --GA
    Say that it's Rogerson? Done. Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:08, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Axl changed it. He didn't like it either. :-) Jenhawk777 (talk) 03:26, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is it Pietism (uc) but deism (mostly lc but not always)?
    Umm, remember I am still a bit of a WP idiot - what do you mean by uc and 1c? Is this about capitals? Petism is a proper name and deism is not. Is that what you are asking about? Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:04, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    uc=upper case, lc=lower case, yes, and then please no Deism. --GA
    Found one, thank you! Only capitalized in book titles now. Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:08, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "that Jesus taught natural religion, an undogmatic faith that the Church later changed" - not exactly sure what faith refers to, the writer*s, or what Jesus taught?
    so I added "that Tindall characterized as an undogmatic faith" does that help? Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:04, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    tough to express, I see, so Tindal believed that natural religion in an undogmatic faith? ... and which view did the church change, just that natural religion was an undogmatic faith, or that Jesus taught Natural religion? --GA
    The church taught dogma. Hmmmm, would that clear it up? Added: "that the Church later changed with its dogma". Is that clearer? Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:08, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    sorry, no, then we get in the dangerous field of which church which dogma, - isn't "natural religion" good enough without an explanation that causes problems? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:58, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay, you have lost me now - I must have misunderstood what you said the problem was initially. Explain? Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:04, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I rewrote the sentence - is it better? Jenhawk777 (talk) 03:26, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    yes! --GA
  • Do I have to read now what deism is, or get a brief summary?
    OOOh! Good question! I moved the link up as that is the first mention of deism, and it should have been there. The link has a brief summary unless you think it should be added to the text.Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:04, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    good like that --GA
  • Einleitung ins Alte Testament - I understand it but how about others? ... that author probably coined a German phrase, not "higher criticism".
    I added the English and a brief phrase that hopefully explains why we care. Tell me if that's insufficient. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:04, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    fine --GA
  • I confess that the whole higher lower historical textual remains a bit murky to me, - perhaps I'll have to read more below. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:49, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Hopefully that extra phrase - that BC is aka higher criticism - explains. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:04, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    better, thank you --GA

first quest

  • "Hermann Samuel Reimarus began the first quest for the historical Jesus after his own death." - sorry, that reads like April Fool ;)
    I know! My sense of humor snuck in! This is such a dry article! It's accurate though! Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:04, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    please change - "began" means some activity, and that's not likely after death - ... "influenced"? --GA
    Aaaah shoot! Done. Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:08, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    better, - could you now rephrase the sentence about Lessing as librarian without repeating his name? --GA
    I did it but I didn't like it... :-) Jenhawk777 (talk) 01:07, 23 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd just say "Reimarus", to indicate that he was mentioned before. Don't expect us to remember all these names, - same for all mentioned after the introduction: only surname. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:57, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Done. You're awesome! Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:04, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you for fast replies, - I need sleep though. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:11, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Why does Superwoman need sleep like ordinary mortals? You are wonderful and I hope you rest well with some small sense of how grateful I am and how much you are loved. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:18, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    rested well, and woke up to day which is a friend's birthday, - virtual celebration on my talk, showing something large from the place of residence, and a church where we sang together, some of the most wonderful music there is, including my song of defiance, and the everlasting quest for peace --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:49, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Amen. Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:08, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

19th century

  • Theologians Richard and Kendall Soulen, - we need to know who they are if we are given several quotes. I looked above for someone with last name Richard. Best solution, write their article(s).
    They have been referenced before this, the last name is Soulen, but I added the book title. See if that works. Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:08, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't see them referenced before. --GA
    No, my mistake! The 19th cent is the first time they are named. I added their bona fides does that work? Jenhawk777 (talk) 01:26, 23 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "... with many modern concepts having their roots here" - this - that it's still of influence - should be said more elegantly, or doesn't need to be said at all.
    I have throughout mentioned a few of the concepts that have continued to be an influence. It's just a mention in every case as this is about history. It does seem worth noting for modern readers - why BC is still significant - and yet not worth spending a lot of time on - since this isn't really about the modern day. So what would more elegant be? More specific detail beyond the one example I give? Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:08, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not the English expert, but know that the "with" construction and "having their roots" doesn't sound convincing to me. --GA
    I changed it, see if that suits. Jenhawk777 (talk) 01:26, 23 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Pauline studies, New Testament studies, early-church studies, Jewish Law, the theology of grace, and the doctrine of justification" - some might deserve a link, no?
    Done.Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:08, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In the mid-nineteenth century" - it seems not to matter at all when within the century he did that, - could be dropped
    Okay, his dates are there.Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:08, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • M. J. Brown - a mysterious red link
    Went through and removed all red links. Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:08, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • bit surprised to meet Semler again
    I thought it would be confusing to put the comment on Semler with no follow-up in the eighteenth century then refer to it later - as if people would remember - in the 19th, so I put it together - but perhaps I can clear that up. See if that change is an improvement. Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:08, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • the "school" was linked before
    DUH! Sorry - removed. Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:08, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

2nd quest

  • repetition of link and years for Strauss
    Done.Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:08, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "attained honors in the history of religions school" - not sure what that means, and would like to know more about his contrast of Jesus and John the Baptist ;)
    expanded just for you :-) Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:08, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • link "apocalyptic", or "a. proclamations"?
    Done. Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:08, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Second Quest" or "second quest" or what? consistent, please
    AAaargh! Sorry! Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:08, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Albert Schweitzer's (1875–1965) Von Reimarus zu Wrede" - please no, these years in the middle of a possessive construction, - why not "Albert Schweitzer (1875–1965) published Von Reimarus zu Wrede"?
    is this better? Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:08, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lives of Jesus, - that's not a title, no? what is it?
    changed Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:08, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

today's batch --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:52, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

thank you deeply Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:15, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
All explanations taken without individual cmts. Very few minor points left, then we can collapse until here. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:04, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

20th century

  • link myth, denomination, Near Easter studies?
    linked
  • "as well as to the challenges it presented to various aspects of biblical criticism" - don't get what that adds
    Two different ideas: 1) contributions to biblical studies and 2) challenges to biblical criticism. They are not the same. Jenhawk777 (talk) 01:47, 23 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    how would "as well posing challenges to aspects of biblical criticism" sound? --GA
    Done. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:20, 23 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

3rd and 4th quest

  • don't think the "Main" Historical Jesus needs to be linked again
    done Jenhawk777 (talk) 01:47, 23 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quest vs. quest again
    fixed Jenhawk777 (talk) 01:47, 23 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Käsemann claimed that because the Evangelists recorded theology does not preclude them having recorded history as well." - I doubt that "because" is the best word there
    perhaps it needs commas to make it clearer. It's a comparative. See if that is clearer. Jenhawk777 (talk) 01:47, 23 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    a bit yes, but why "because"? - I don't see one cause the other - I can kind of see that one (theology) doesn't preclude the other (history), but it seems not the same --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:37, 23 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Then you perfectly understand Käsemann's argument! Bultmann said the gospels were theology and therefore could not be history. I will see if I can make that clearer. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:22, 23 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

today's batch is shorter, - I think I get better in understanding ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:26, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I think your understanding is wonderful. Jenhawk777 (talk) 01:47, 23 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
To little ones left above, - too tired for reading further today. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:37, 23 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I am traveling for the next three days. I will have limited access on my phone. Thank you for your patience. Jenhawk777 (talk) 02:10, 24 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fine. I read through the Major methods without difficulties. Take care. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:20, 24 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I am home now! So glad to hear that! Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:44, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Legacy

  • I'd be happier if "One way this has occurred has been through the forging of what Jonathon Sheehan calls a "cultural Bible"." came later or not at all. The sentence is long before reaching "cultural Bible", and I am not sure I understand "forging" right. The following sentence connects better to the previous one, at least for me.
    I rewrote it see if it makes any more sense to you. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:54, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    yes, but could we now avoid "forge a cultural Bible" - then almost a bible, no? - saying twice in a row? --GA
    done - I hope. Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:03, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • '"no culturally literate person" can afford to be ignorant of what the Bible says' made me curious how he finished the sentence, because "Bible says" sounds a bit like not his style ;)
    It's a summation. It means the same thing I think. I can remove it if you don't agree. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:54, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    could you perhaps have the complete sentence in a footnote? --GA
    it didn't really add much to understanding the actual points here I decided, so it's gone. Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:03, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Its cultural impact is therefore studied in multiple academic fields." - the "therefore" could mean so many of the previous facts that I'd strike it.
    Done.Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:54, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The longish quote beginning "By 1800 ..." has no attribution unless it's the author before or after.
    Fixed. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:54, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "What this means for the community of faith is the question on the other hand" - why another "other hand"? ... and I'm not sure what "community of faith" describes.
    the hand is gone, reworded, hope it's clearer Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:54, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    it's clearer, but I still don't know what a "community of faith" or "believing community" means, - people in different denominations believing sooo different things --GA
    Okay, added "any Jewish or Christian" as denomination doesn't matter for this point. Is that enough? Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:03, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why are three words italic in Fishbane's musing about traditional Judaism?
    for emphasis. I removed them. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:54, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    thank you, - too bad that italics have to serve so many different purposes, and that we don't really have means for a mild emphasis --GA
  • What do the square brackets mean, and would I know that the quotation following is Fishbane's (while before what he said was described, not quoted)?
    They meant 'this is an addition to the quote', but I removed them and moved crap around, and hopefully it's actually an improvement. :-) Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:54, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    helped! --GA

Evangelical

  • That's a very ambiguous word, and should perhaps be defined. (Some just use it as a synonym of Protestant.)
    In the sociology of religion it has a very specific meaning. PEW uses it that way, and the source The Oxford Companion to Christian Thought refers to Smith as a "convinced evangelical". It is linked in the sentence about Smith. I think it's an accurate nomenclature for conservative Protestantism as opposed to liberal. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:54, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I think that all this is right, but we still have readers who come from Evangelical Church in Germany and think that Evangelical may mean anything Protestant. (Long discussions on the article talk, nutshell: that's the organisation's official English name. Too bad the organisation has no idea what Evangelical normally means, - not "evangelisch" = any church mostly bosed on the Gospel = Evangelium.) This - equal to Protestant - looks even more likely when opposed to Catholic. ... how about a header "Conservative Protestant", and bring Evangelical only in the text? --GA
    I changed it, but just so you know, "conservative" is one of those loaded words in the U.S. as it has political implications here. I'm concerned its use might convey a false impression, but there it is. Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:03, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    learning: what would be a better expression? Orthodox? Fundamental? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:29, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Not fundamentalism which is a particular movement that started in the 1920s; not Orthodox because that too is associated with a particular group in the East: Eastern, Greek or Russian. I did a little reading on the Evangelical church of Germany and they are more ecumenical than American evangelicals but theologically appear to agree with American evangelicals on most critical doctrines such as justification by faith. They seem to be very like the Methodists I know, and I consider the Methodists as more Mainline in America than evangelical. There doesn't seem to be a term that encompasses all the different views, so my vote is let's just leave it as it is. Conservative can refer to more than politics while evangelical is a more limited term.Jenhawk777 (talk) 03:03, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    "evangelisch" is the mainstream Protestant United church, in Germany, - far from what "evangelical" carries for Americans (in German two words, "evangelisch" and evangelikal", the latter not a nice attribute). The EKD obviosly has no idea, or would not have chosen that translation. United: Lutherans and Reformed together. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:53, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • What are "German ideas of higher criticism, please?
    I took it from the source because it communicates in a short phrase all the things the fundies feared: the ideas of biblical criticism were 'foreign', liberal, scholastically based, and beyond their comprehension. I could say all that instead I guess. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:54, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    yes please --GA
    it's just as clear without it and adding more verbosity seemed counterproductive so I just removed it. Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:03, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Catholic

  • link Pope Pius XII?
    Done. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:54, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Providentissimus Deus ("On the Study of Holy Scripture") - what's in brackets is not a translation of the title, rather of a subtitle.
    Fixed. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:54, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "New Catholic Commentary" is that a book? ... italic?
    added its full title and reference Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:54, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Jewish

  • The linked Schechter was not born in 1903, and someone born then would likely be dead.
    He is dead! The link is correct, the date is wrongly written as a birth date. It's actually the date for when he said the 'higher anti-semitism' quote. I removed it. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:54, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Changes in Methods

  • or: methods?
    Yes of course. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:54, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • the last sentences has a stray (or unclosed) '
    no longer. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:54, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the article! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:09, 27 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for taking so much time and effort to go over it Gerda. It has benefitted from your input, and I am deeply grateful. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:54, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for adopting ideas. - I have some tasks today - new article and such - but will then turn to the lead, - remember, I always look there last. One point at the end is the presentation of the footnotes, great detail, but could look a bit more uniformly perhaps. I like last ones, hint hint. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:14, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry dearheart I don't understand your hint. Last ones? The last note? The bulleted approach makes the other notes readable. There is too much info in them to have them in a single paragraph - I tried that first and it was just a mess: an indecipherable wall of text. If you want them all formatted alike, I can bullet the last note, but changing all the others would not be an improvement in my view. Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:03, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
fine, just one q above, for my illumination --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:29, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Did I answer that one q? I hope I have addressed everything. If not, let me know. Jenhawk777 (talk) 03:54, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
yes --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:53, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

  • link Bible?
    Done. Jenhawk777 (talk) 03:03, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • not sure about the italics for scientific
    for emphasis of course! :-) biblical criticism was base on tradition before this Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:07, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This basis in critical thinking set it apart from the pre-critical methods that came before it, the anti-critical methods of those who oppose critically based study, and the post-critical orientation that came after it." - I think the sentence is more or less a Latin lesson, saying that "pre" means "before" and "post" means "after". Can you reword that? I'd also prefer "critical methods" vs. "critical thinking" because "methods" will play a role later.
    I am laughing out loud. I'm sure you can hear me from there. This sentence was changed to include those definitions at the request of this FA. Please see comments by Axl. I understand the use of method, so I changed it, but thinking seems more accurate to me. Critical thinking led to the development of critical method. Jenhawk777 (talk) 03:03, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I hear you laughing ;) - Will you find a way to please the other reviewer - I intentionally didn't look what others said, I say my thing and you take it or not - without language on kindergarden level, "that came before it", "that came after it". My take: "The basis in critical thinking set it apart from earlier pre-critical methods, from anti-critical methods of opponents of any critically based study, and from later post-critical orientation." --GA
    I changed it as you suggested and I not only like it better, it's shorter! An infinite benefit! Thank you! Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:07, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • In "Biblical criticism historically included a wide range of approaches", what does "historically" add?
    It places it in time in my mind. It says that this is a practice that is now over as we are speaking of it here. It's past. It's historical. That's what I meant anyway. Jenhawk777 (talk) 03:03, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    The past tense ("included") tells me all that. If history, then please not as an ambiguous adverb (which has nothing to do with the verb here, as far as I understand). How about then "In history, Biblical criticism included a wide range of approaches"? --GA
    I see your point. Done Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:07, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Textual criticism examines the text and its manuscripts to identify what the original text would have said." - I see a problem in the first "text" as if there was only one. Isn't the problem that often there are "texts" for the same thing?
    A text is the written word - it may be one or a hundred words - and would still be referred to as the text. A manuscript is the document that contains the texts. Brittanica defines text as writings. What would make this clearer for you ? Jenhawk777 (talk) 03:03, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't know that "text" would be used as a plural word, like "money", sorry about that. For me, "texts and their manuscript" would be clearer --GA
    It can be either single or plural - it's one of those words. :-). I can add s's if you insist. But it will be a lot of s's! Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:07, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Form criticism identifies short units of text and seeks to identify their original setting." - not sure what "setting" means here.
    changed it though I am unsure it's any clearer Jenhawk777 (talk) 03:51, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the other hand" - there was no one hand ;) - how about "While these approaches were .... , literary cr... --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:54, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    The sentence before it was the one hand. See if it seems clearer now. Jenhawk777 (talk) 03:51, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay? Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:07, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The rise of modern culture in the European West, in the form of the German Enlightenment," - sorry, "modern" is what we call wishi-washi, even with a link, - how about "The German Enlightenment era, identified as the rise of modern culture in the European West,"?
    How does moving it to the middle of the sentence make it less wishy-washy? Some may call it a wishy-washy term, but in sociology and anthropology and a few other fields, like history, and history of the humanities which is how its used here, modern refers to a particular era in human history. We have this: Modernity and a search for 'the rise of modern culture' will yield more. It's not an unusual phrase, and it is used correctly. Early modern is between the 15th century and the 18th. Perhaps I should add that. Done. Jenhawk777 (talk) 03:51, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    works much better for me, only I won't need "This German Enlightenment" right after it, too much German ;) - Do we need "German" at all? ... if yes, within the link to something without it? - How about: While many scholars regard Enlightenment as the leading factor ..., others ..."?
    Also (on re-reading): if "age" or "era" at all, I'd mention that on the first occurrence, instead of the third, and only the first time with a link. --GA
    No no! German enlightenment must be there! BC is a product of German thought and everyone else followed. German ideas!! I changed it - and it's shorter too! Yay! See if it passes muster now. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:07, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "field" twice in short succession
    fixed Jenhawk777 (talk) 03:51, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • What does the sentence "These additional world views changed the nature of biblical criticism." add?
    It explains the two sentences that follow. It underlines that biblical criticism as it once was is now done. Jenhawk777 (talk) 03:51, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Ah heck. I removed it. Less verbosity is good. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:03, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Amen --GA

I like the conclusion! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:54, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Jen, thanks a lot, - I'm ready to support at this point, for enlightening me with enough clarity about a complex subject. I have no time, nor the scientific background, to check the sources and their representation. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:53, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

All done now I think! Thank you so much. I do need someone to come and check the source but hopefully that will happen! Thanx again! Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:07, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment edit

This has been open for five weeks and has only received a limited amount of attention. It is already in urgents, and if it doesn't attract further reviewers soon I shall be considering archiving it. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:13, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't! This is already its second attempt at FA and archiving it will sink it forever I'm sure. It just needs a source review. This is an important topic and needs to be among WP's best. I was so thrilled to see your name on my watchlist. I hoped you had come for that review, but my heart sank when I saw this instead. What can I do about this? Perhaps I have enough friends here I can ask them for help. Give me time to try. Please. Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:17, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I would suggest pinging anyone who has previously reviewed or commented on the article to see if you can get a review out of them. Plus calling in any Wiki-favours you can. In particular it needs thorough source review. I would like to review it myself, and if time permits will recuse from coordinator duties to do so, but things are busy for me at the moment. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:39, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I have just been pinging everyone I know on WP! I asked the original source reviewers for a peer-review kind of look before nominating it this time, and they declined then. Should I re-ask do you think - since it's urgent now - or would that be pesty and rude? I don't want to be rude, not knowingly anyway. :-) Even if I'm not rude, I think I am annoyingly persistent some times, and every contact I make here doesn't automatically result in a friend. I have asked about a dozen people for a source review, but that pretty much exhausts everyone I know. I was still relatively new to WP when I was run off a couple years ago and have only been back a few months, so I don't have a lot of established relationships. I'll just have to wait and see if anyone shows up. If you could find the time for this, I would be forever in your debt. Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:28, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, when I want a review I am shameless, although hopefully polite. This is getting an important topic to FA; if people don't wish to review, they can politely decline. Try some of the regular multiple reviewers - see Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates#FAC reviewing statistics for October 2020 Gog the Mild (talk) 20:39, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Will do Chief! Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:26, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User:Gog the Mild User:Sdkb had some questions I couldn't answer: the location of the sidebar which another reviewer had me move to the bottom, how many images are good? as another reviewer had me remove a bunch of them, some line break thing in notes that I don't understand, and the access dates in further reading. Also, do all the ISBNs need to have dashes? They are copy-pasted from the sources and are accessible as they are. It's not that I mind doing the work but I mind doing unnecessary work. This would be time consuming for no real benefit to my thinking but I will of course bow to your judgment. You say and I will make it so.
Gog, this is now my third formatting review, and don't get me wrong, I apparently need it and people are showing up and being kind and careful and genuinely improving the look of the references and I'm grateful for that. But no one is doing the kind of reference check I asked for. No one is checking for accuracy. What am I gonna do Gog? I am getting so stressed I can't eat. I love Wikipedia but this is crazy! This is a hobby! But I so very much want this FA for this article. I'm going to need therapy after this, however it goes. If only WP provided that! Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:42, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Sdkb edit

Responding to the plea I noticed on AlanM1's talk page. Bible-related topics strike me as one of those areas that probably has a lot more interest from readers than editors, so I share the sentiment that getting this page over the finish line should probably be prioritized over pages in other, more niche areas. I'm relatively new to the FC nomination process, so I regretfully don't have the time or expertise to dive into a full source review, but I'll take a skim over the sources and leave some comments with anything I find. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 20:55, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

User:Sdkb Thank you, thank you, thank you! I am so grateful you are here! Responses follow! Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments

Non-source comments

Take the below with the caveat that I don't have any subject-specific expertise in biblical criticism, so if some of these points just reflect my ignorance, take them as indicative only of that.

  • I shortened the short description to get it closer to the 40-character target.
    I love it. Thank you. Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • In "Most scholars agree the German Enlightenment (1650 and 1800)", it's unclear what the years in parentheses refer to.
    It refers to the dates of the German Enlightenment period. Perhaps I can make that clearer. Better? Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Yep, that's fine. "(1650–1800)" would also work if we want to keep it shorter. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 00:26, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    How - without putting those dates back in parenthesis? Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:07, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    It was the "and" that was the issue ("and" doesn't signify a range), not the parentheses. I changed it to this; does that look alright? {{u|Sdkb}} talk 21:06, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Ah! Of course! I don't know why there was an and instead of a dash, but it looks fine now. Thank you. Are there 'circas' on the other dates? If not they should probably not be here either. I'll get in trouble for inconsistency. Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:07, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead has me a little confused about the past vs. present tense. Most of it is in the past tense, but the third paragraph uses the present tense to describe the different forms, and states that literary criticism is still happening in the 21st century. Saying "other academic disciplines...formed new methods of biblical criticism" in the 21st century also seems to imply it's not an entirely dead discipline.
    I have really struggled with effectively communicating that the biblical criticism as described in this article has come to an end, but that it has done so by transforming into multiple other forms with a different basic criteria and different goals. It is no longer what it was, but its progeny live on doing things the parent never dreamed of. I have tried again. If it isn't good enough yet, tell me and I will try again. Or if there is anything you can think of, feel free to act! Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    User:Sdkb Is it okay? Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:07, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah, the changes have definitely helped. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 21:06, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The passage "Biblical criticism's legacy is both undeniable and mixed. It permanently changed perception of the Bible, and in the process, changed itself." strikes me as a little flowery and not fully encyclopedic/neutral. Something like "Biblical criticism has had an influential and mixed legacy" for the first sentence and more specificity in the second sentence would help.
    The "permanently changed perception of the Bible" part is a direct quote that is attributed in the Legacy section's first sentence. "Mixed" is a summation of the three paragraphs that follow it. I'd really like to keep the quote if possible, but if you say you feel strongly about it not sounding encyclopedic, I will change it. I had one other really beautiful sentence that two reviewers really hated that I had to ditch, so this one can go too if required. Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd suggest changing the "Biblical criticism's legacy" heading to just "Legacy", as we don't need to restate the page's title.
    Done. Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Having the bible sidebar appear way far down next to "changes in methods" in the legacy section feels a bit odd; is there a reason for that?
    That was a strong suggestion by the first reviewer here. It was originally at the top, but I was told people objected to that. Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Per Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Lead_section#Sidebars_(navboxes)_should_NOT_be_used_in_the_lead, the role of sidebars in general seems to be in some flux. I can't find the first reviewer's comments with their rationale, but I think I disagree with them on the placement. It's obviously not the biggest issue, so I'll defer to whatever consensus is. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 00:26, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Me too. So right now I guess that means leave it? Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:07, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The history and legacy sections feel a little sparse on illustration; if there are suitable options available, they might help break up the text a bit.
    This is also in response to a previous reviewer. I removed images that were in those sections that were mostly pictures of the people referred to in the article. Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Similar to the above, I think this is somewhat a matter of personal approach. I interpret MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE to allow for portraits of people mentioned at reasonable length, especially if they're kept to a small size, but I'll defer to whatever the consensus is here. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 00:26, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

{{u|Sdkb}} talk 21:15, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Additional input from others would be appreciated, but the reviewer is a pretty seasoned veteran here, so I am guessing they have a good understanding of what's best, and I went with it.Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:07, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with User:Sdkb. It is unfortunate we have an editor doing the image reviews whose views on image use are on the edge of the mainstream approach. Johnbod (talk) 14:41, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    If there is a consensus for this, I can put some of them back.Jenhawk777 (talk) 05:32, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source comments

  • Notes 1 and 7 have an extra line break. I've seen this before with notes that consist only of a bulleted list, so there's some larger issue that goes beyond this page, but is there any way to fix it?
    I have no idea. This is beyond my skill level. Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Maybe we could ask at WP:VPT? I wouldn't consider this part of the FAC, but since it affects many pages it'd be nice to look into. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 00:26, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    The whole idea of asking a technical question of people who actually understand that stuff sends shivers down my spine. It's way over my head. I admit it. Even if they answered, I am sure I wouldn't understand it. Jenhawk777 (talk) 05:32, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    No worries; I opened up a thread there myself at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Bulleted_lists_in_references. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 06:04, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reference 1 has a URL in the page parameter.
    Same as above. Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    The reference has |page=https://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/1710#Spinoza_1321.01_614, causing the bare URL to display. Per the documentation at Template:Citation#In-source_locations, the page parameter isn't supposed to be used for anything but a number. If the reference doesn't have page numbers (as might be the case here; I haven't looked too closely), it advises using |at= instead. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 00:26, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Ahh! The light begins to break! I will do that because that is a direct link to the paragraph referenced and since there are no other page numbers, I would like to keep it. Should that para|at be inside the reference, or separate outside the ref in its own curly brackets? Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:07, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I tried it every which way and I think I finally got it! I think it's fixed. Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:07, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Done. Jenhawk777 (talk) 05:32, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some ISBNs lack dashes. Also, this is very picky, but in some of them that do, they go onto multiple lines; are we able to use non-breaking dashes?
    I copy pasted the ISBNs without dashes wondering if that would be a problem but had no idea whether inserting dashes on. my own would be appropriate. I need instruction from someone who knows. Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    My understanding is that the technical best format for ISBNs is with the dashes. To get them, you can use https://www.isbn.org/ISBN_converter and convert the ISBN-13s to ISBN-10s and then back again, and the dashes will be added. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 00:26, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh man. Alright. I'll get started on it. Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:07, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    As an update on the non-breaking dashes, I requested that the citation template be modified to prevent the ISBNs from breaking onto multiple lines (as happens at e.g. Bauckham, ref 114), which would fix the issue for this and all other pages. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 18:13, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Bless you! Does this mean I don't have to go through changing them all one by one? Jenhawk777 (talk) 05:32, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    It means that the hyper-picky line breaking issue is being discussed elsewhere, but I can't speak to whether or not adding dashes is required. I got the impression it's a good thing to do because it's what User:Aza24 did for me and because Wikidata forced me to do it to enter ISBNs there. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 06:04, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pages "none available" is a little weird in ref 10. I think the citation templates have some parameters for marking where things are in sources that don't use explicit page numbers.
    I would love to learn how to do this. Usually if a source doesn't have page numbers I just don't use it which eliminates some really good sources. Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:19, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    See above about |at=. URL adjustments can help sometimes, too (for an FLC I'm working on, I recently adjusted all the PDFs like this to link to the correct spot).
    Thanx. This is a German book, in German, with no page numbers. I have put in an ask to a German friend to see if they have access to it through something other than Google to see if there is a version out there with with page numbers, but until then I just removed the page reference.Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:07, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Done. Found page numbers. Jenhawk777 (talk) 07:37, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 18 has a bare URL and needs some fixing up.
    Whoa! How did that get missed in the formatting review? IDK, but thank you for catching it. It is fixed now. Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Fixed. Jenhawk777 (talk) 05:32, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 62 lacks the author.
    It's a newspaper article with no byline.Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    It does have a byline, Paul L. Montgomery, in the PDF; it just got lost somewhere in the digitization so it's not showing up in the link you're using. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 00:26, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I have no idea why my version doesn't have him! I rechecked it after you asked, but now that you have found the author I will certainly put his name in. Done. (I can't log in to the link you provided. I am not a subscriber.) Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:07, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Done.
  • Title in ref 71 uses all caps.
    Copy pasted again and I wasn't sure if I should change that or not. I will though since you said something. Done. Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I doubt ref 76 should have "Foreword by David C Greetham" as part of the title. Similarly, in ref 87, is "(Master Reference)" part of the title?
    Copy pasted from [[18]]. It does seem weird though and the front cover doesn't have the whole phrase, so I am thinking you are right anyway. So much for Googlebooks. :-) Done. Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Curly quotes in ref 77.
    I don't understand. Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    See MOS:CURLY. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 00:26, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Lord have mercy! If I've said it once I've said it a million times: quotation marks will be the death of me! Fixed. Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:07, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Done. Jenhawk777 (talk) 05:32, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 79 should probably have some sort of identifier.
    I don't understand. The quote is attributed in the text, the chapter he wrote is named and the book referenced - what sort of identifier are you looking for? Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Some sort of numeric identifier that would produce a link. E.g. ISBN, or if that doesn't exist, maybe OCLC. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 00:26, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Ahh! I am guessing it has no ISBN because it was originally printed in 1913. I could add the google books url, would that do? Done. Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:07, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 05:32, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 107 has a bare URL, page=abstract, and needs other fixing up.
    Groan. Thank you! Fixed. Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Done. Jenhawk777 (talk) 05:32, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 127 and ref 142 look like they're missing a colon in the title.
    Done. This will teach me not to simply copy paste anymore but to check the book covers. Thank you! Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's inconsistency between "Third ed" and "3rd ed".
    OOPS! Change Third to 3rd. Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Done. Jenhawk777 (talk) 05:32, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • In refs 51, 163, and 168, there are two adjacent pages being used but a comma separating them, whereas elsewhere there's an en-dash. Is that signifying something or just an inconsistency that should be fixed?
    commas between the page numbers means the information is found on each of these separate pages. When there is a dash it means content is found spread between all of the pages. Is there a better way to do that? Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Makes sense to me; those are good as they are, then. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 00:26, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay. Jenhawk777 (talk) 05:32, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure if this is based in PAG, but I dislike seeing access dates in further reading sections, since the anti-link rot function they serve for the references section doesn't really apply.
    This is Greek to me - no wait - I do understand a little Greek and I am clueless about this. Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    It's the "Retrieved on..." lines. They just feel off to me, since they're an artifact of when a page was edited, rather than anything about the subject itself, and therefore I don't feel like they should show up outside of the reference section. That view might be totally contrary to the general consensus, though. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 00:26, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    This is above my pay grade. Will need official input from coordinator User:Gog the Mild on this one I think. Also the question of the location of the sidebar, how many images?, that line break thing in notes that you asked about, and the access dates in further reading. Those were all questions you had that I do not know the answers to - oh, and for my sake, if the ISBNs all need to have dashes added. Gog will know. Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:07, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Gog apparently is not allowed to address such questions directly so other input is needed. I don't know how to answer this question. Jenhawk777 (talk) 05:32, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Looking over what I just did, maybe that does count as a source review; I'll leave that to the coordinators as I haven't done a source review before. I was mostly just looking at how they display, not diving into the links to see if they adequately support the article text. Pretty much all the references are scholarly, so I don't really anticipate issues with reliability. Hopefully this will at least make it easier for someone else to complete the review. Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}} talk 21:48, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • User:Sdkb A thousand blessings upon you for showing up and doing something. If you ever need a favor or a friend, please call on me. Unfortunately, this is not a source review, this was formatting - which apparently I still needed! So not a waste, valuable, but not yet the thing I am in such desperate need of. Still, thank you. Don't think for a second that I am not grateful for what you have done. If you are up to it and could finish up with my responses and either strike through, or support, or something, that would be great. Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I hope someone else comes along and is able to complete it! I'm not sure whether I ought to give a bolded !vote as I don't think I've looked at the page outside the reference section closely enough to be able to judge it comprehensively, but once we take care of the few remaining items above I'll consider all my concerns satisfied and be able to speak to the reference section complying with all formatting guidelines. And nothing super urgent at the moment, but I appreciate it and am glad to be of help! :) {{u|Sdkb}} talk 00:26, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    In an FA review you are not obligated to review the entire article, you can do as much as you want, and be done whenever you decide you're done. Reformatting all those ISBNs is going to take me a little while, and I need some additional info on reference 10 - the para|at thing - but otherwise I think I have addressed everything. Any additional comments are always appreciated of course. Thank you again! Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:07, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Wait! I figured out the "at" thing, so nevermind about that, but will wait on Gog to lower the axe on me on those ISBNs! The rest is done! :-) Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:18, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Apparently it is a source review, I just didn't know there was more than one kind. Thank you again, for your help and just for showing up. It means a lot, and your input has been valuable. Jenhawk777 (talk) 05:32, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Small lingering things

None of these I view as reasons to hold up the nomination (I consider my concerns satisfactorily addressed), but just placing them here given that I've collapsed the above:

  • Myself and Johnbod above both feel that it'd be beneficial for the visuals in the history and legacy sections that were removed during the image review to be restored.
    • User:Buidhe could you comment on this? Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:29, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • I believe that both SandyGeorgia and I supported removal. Images are not just for decoration, they should have some encyclopedic purpose. Any that are added back should show more than just what some person looks like, and should not violate MOS:IMAGELOC. (t · c) buidhe 06:37, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I opened a thread at VPT asking if it'd be possible to get rid of the line breaks that occur for notes 1 and 7.
  • Some ISBNs lack dashes, whereas others have them.
  • I opened a thread seeking to make ISBNs non-wrapping in references.
  • I have an instinct (explained to the extent I can above) that access dates shouldn't be used for the further reading section, but it's unclear what actual best practice is for this.

Input from other reviewers on these things would be helpful, as Jenhawk and I have already discussed them and gotten as far as we can by ourselves above. Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}} talk 05:08, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    • You may have to ask directly, I don't think others are looking here. Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:51, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Update: the ISBNs all have their dashes now thanx to an exceptional person and a toolbot. :-)Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:32, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nikkimaria edit

Resolved comments
  • I'm having difficulty locating the lead's definition of biblical criticism in the text, and as it's used to scope the whole article, I'd like to see at least sourcing if not more discussion. Is this a particular scholar's definition?
    First let me say thank you and tell you how deeply grateful I am to see you here. You have made a friend today, a friend who is already in your debt. I hope you will call it in one day, and afford me the opportunity to show you how grateful I truly am. Now as to your comment here. I think it trenchant, so I went and wrote and added a new section - definition - at the top. Please, see if that is satisfactory. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:16, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    User:Nikkimaria do you consider this done or should I do more? Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:57, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm going to leave further discussion of this section to Mike, below. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:15, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    It has now been polished to Mike's satisfaction. Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:30, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Biblical criticism included a wide range of approaches and questions within four major methodologies: textual, source, form, and literary criticism." - the text lists five, why exclude redaction?
    Redaction is a subset and not a primary type. Do I need to make that clearer do you think?Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:16, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Given the description in the text, I would suggest clarifying here. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:03, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay. I have added a sentence about it to the lead that reflects the statement about it in the body. Tell me if you think it's sufficient. Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:00, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Is this done? Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:57, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:15, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Rylands fragment P52 verso is the oldest existing fragment of New Testament Papyrus" - source?
    I'll go add one. There are many. That's in the image isn't it? Done Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:16, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Done. Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:57, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This was based on the assumption that scribes were more likely to add to a text than omit from it, making shorter texts more likely to be older. " - source?
    Added. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:16, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 06:57, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN1: this should be cited as a book and include a translator credit
    I'm sorry, I don't understand. Is this referring to note 1? Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:16, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay I am back, being dissatisfied with this answer I went and figured out what you were referring to. It's now reference number 5, and yes the reference I use refers to the book, but contains only parts of it, and as it is what I actually referred to, and not the book, I cited it accordingly. I can change that if you like but there were no page numbers at the book, and on the website there is an actual link that takes a person directly to the discussion instead of page numbers. I thought it was pretty cool. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:24, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    It's absolutely fine to include the link to the website, but citing it as a web source is a bit misleading. If you want, think of it like equivalent to a Google Books link - you can credit the website using |via= if you want, but the citation is really to the translated book you're seeing there, correct? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:03, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay I changed it. Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:16, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Done Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:57, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Be consistent in whether books include publication location, and if so how these are formatted
    I didn't think there were any books with publication locations, only journals. Yikes! There were a bunch, but they are all gone now! Thank you for catching that! Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:16, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 06:57, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why do some books include page numbers in footnotes while others include them inline?
    I am assuming this is about the use of rp? I had an rp for every reference and then was corrected and told it is only intended for use when a reference is reused. If a reference is only used once, it's page number should be inside the reference. So I went back and changed them all to comply with that standard. I liked the look of it better with them all in rp, it was consistent, but it was messier, no doubt. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:16, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    You can do rp for only repeated references, but if that's to be done it should be done consistently. Some references are repeated but do not use rp, for example FN90. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:03, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Oops! Fixed. Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:28, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 06:57, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why do some journals include accessdates while others don't? Ditto accessdates for GBooks links - they're not required, but if you're going to include them you should do so consistently
    Hmmmm, journals shouldn't include them, only web citations. Boom! Found a book and two journals with them! Removed. Thank you. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:16, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 06:57, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fn5 has incorrect page formatting
    Since I added the definition section the numbering has now changed. I am also unsure what Fn means here. I mean, I assume footnote, but is that the reference number in the ref list? I have never seen them referred to as FN, though technically that is correct of course, they are footnotes, but is that what you mean? This is reference number 5 you are referring to, which would now be reference number 9?? Jeez.
    So, if that's correct, and if you are referring to the comma, pages are liste two different ways for a reason. When it is listed as 20,22 that means the information is found on page 20 and again on page 22 separately. If it is listed as 20 - 22, then the content is spread out on all three pages including page 21. I don't know how else to designate this, but I am open to suggestions. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:16, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    The comma was fine, it was a page-vs-pages issue which I've fixed. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:03, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay, thank you. Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:28, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • When a doi exists for journal sources, I would suggest including it
    even when there's a url? Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:16, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes please. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:03, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay, I will go look for those. DOIs would just be for journals right? So ref#22, Berry, has no doi available; #81 Cooper already has them both; in #111, it seems the url and doi are the same - could that be right? In #134 I added a url. I could not get #12 to accept both the doi and the url, it kept telling me it was an error, and I don't know why. #179 already has both. Did I get them all? What should I do about 111? Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:56, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Nikkimaria I can't tell if this is done or not doen. Can you? Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:32, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:44, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fn10: can you double-check the publisher name? Also, is this publication in English or German?
    OK reference 10, which is now ref#14,
    OMG! Thank you for catching that. I don't know what happened there but the name of the Publisher is correct now. It is a German book. I read a little German but it is translatable into English as well. Clicking on the ISBN and searching googlebooks will locate it and offer to translate. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:16, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    If you're citing the original German which you've machine-translated, the citation should reflect the original. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:03, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    It does, Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:28, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    The original has a fully German title, and |language= should be included. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:36, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 06:57, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN25: double-check publisher name
    Okay, this is ref#29 now, that's William Baird and Augsburgh Fortress, a Lutheran publishing company - not self-published if that's the concern. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:16, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Not self-published, but the spelling in the footnote is different from what you've said here - what's the correct spelling? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:03, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I misspelled it here. There is no 'h' at the end. It is spelled correctly in the references: Augsburg Fortress Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:28, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Um. That's also not the spelling in the references. Now footnote 29. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:36, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh, hah ha! That's a typo. Sometimes my fingers move faster than my brain. :-)
    Done06:57, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Fn28: edition statement should be a separate parameter
    Now #32, Soulen. In this case, I believe it is part of the title.[19] But I can change that if you wish. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:16, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay, thank you for fixing that. Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:57, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fn33: volume statement shouldn't be part of the title
    #37, Again part of the title, [20] however, it doesn't seem to be written that way on the book cover, so I am thinking you're right anyway, so I will change it. Done Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:16, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah, something to be aware of if you're using Google Books a lot is that their metadata is not the greatest quality. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:03, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I am learning that the hard way aren't I? Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:28, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 06:57, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • NF35 is missing date and subtitle shouldn't be part of entry title
    Ref#39 - please be sure I am looking at the same ref you are referring to - this is Wardman, Harold W at the Encyclopedia Brittanica right? What date is it missing? And I don't understand subtitle. That is the title of the article. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:16, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Britannica provides the date that the entry was last updated; that should be included. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:03, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay, but since I use the template, I don't see a parameter for that. How should I add it in? Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:28, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Nikkimaria What about this one? Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:33, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I fixed this. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:44, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you. Could you teach me how? Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:30, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tate Publishing appears to have been a vanity press - what makes this a high-quality reliable source?
    YIKES! That's bad! It slipped past me that's all. GONE!! There was already a second source there. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:16, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 06:57, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Check that publisher names are consistent, unless there's been a formal renaming - for example you've got both "Westminster John Knox" and "Westminster John Knox Press"
    I tend to just copy paste and insert into the template. Sorry. I will check them all. Okay that's done. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:16, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 06:57, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN66: check publisher and location
    Our previous numbering would make that Ref#70 but 70 is the one that I added, at your request, about the Rylands fragment, so your 66 is now 71 - I think - Wegner, Paul D. (2004). The Journey from Texts to Translations The Origin and Development of the Bible. Is that correct? All the locations have been removed for consistency per request above, and the publisher is Baker Publishing, so I am thinking I must not have the right reference. I looked to either side and can't find what is being referred to here. Can you clarify further? Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:16, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Nikkimaria Can you clarify? Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:35, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I fixed this. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:44, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you very much. Which one was it, do you remember? Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:30, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Mackail: it had "Cambridge: University Press" (which matches the location+publisher formatting) instead of "Cambridge University Press". Nikkimaria (talk) 22:22, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN82: don't duplicate title and work title
    This is #87 now, please God, which is David Miller and there is only one title. The journal is listed, but that's all. Okay, wait, I think you must be referring to #85, the Lexicon. It was also the website's name, but I have removed the repetition there. Not having any website name didn't seem to create a problem. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:16, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 06:57, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN113 is missing publisher
    I am thinking I must be wrong again, this is 118, Sanders? In note 4? The publisher is there. It's Cambridge. No wait, these numbers are not lining up! 117 is missing its publisher! Fixed! Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:16, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 06:57, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN141: the entity listed as the journal is actually the publisher
    #145, now fixed. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:16, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

More later. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:14, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Whew! This is now my third formatting review and people keep finding things. I apparently needed it though, so thank you. I will know about all of this - if I ever am crazy enough to do this again! Thank you! I am hoping we will move on to that source review, yes? Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:16, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Jenhawk777, I think there might be a bit of confusion going on here. Gog had requested two checks on this article: a source review, which assesses source formatting and reliability, and a spotcheck, which assesses verifiability and avoidance of close paraphrasing. What I've posted so far IS a source review; the spotcheck will happen next, but both do need to get sorted before the article can be promoted. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:48, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm sorry, I didn't know the right terms. Clearly this is in need of both kinds of review, and please know that my anxiety does not reflect ingratitude for the time and effort you are putting in here. It's just that no one has done any spotcheck yet and I am getting stressed about it. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:56, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    User:Nikkimaria I'm sorry. I took some time off, got something to eat, and calmed down a little. I care too much about this I'm afraid. I will take whatever you see fit to do, whenever you do it, and be grateful for it. I will endeavor to be calm. I promise. Jenhawk777 (talk) 05:53, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "both those who attack it and those who support it "generally do so by emphasizing its essentially historical character"" - the unquoted portion of this is nearly identical to the source, would suggest expanding the quote. Ditto the bit about "awkward hybrid"
    DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 06:57, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In the Enlightenment era of the European West, philosophers and theologians such as Thomas Hobbes (1588–1679), Benedict Spinoza (1632–1677), and Richard Simon (1638–1712) began to question the long-established Judeo-Christian tradition that Moses was the author of the first five books of the Bible known as the Pentateuch. " The citation following this supports Spinoza's thought, but not that of the others mentioned
    DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 06:57, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "According to Old Testament scholar Edward Young (1907–1968), Astruc believed that Moses assembled the book of Genesis (the first book of the Pentateuch) using the hereditary accounts of the Hebrew people" - would suggest expanding the page range citing this to include 119
    DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 06:57, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Lessing contributed to the field of biblical criticism by seeing Reimarus' writings published" - don't see this on the page cited
    I went back and added a ref in the first paragraph where the claim is first made - where it should have been. Is that sufficient or does it need to be cited in this last paragraph as well? Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:57, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    User:Nikkimaria is that a no? Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:30, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    This is fine. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:22, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "60% of the Dead Sea manuscripts are closely related to the Masoretic Text" - don't see this on the page cited
    I added a second ref but they are both charts with slightly different numbers - 57%, 52% - so I removed the numerical claim and just said majority. If that's okay, then this is
    DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 06:57, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "set the agenda for a generation of leading New Testament scholars" doesn't quite match the quote in the cited source.
    It does in the 2001, third edition. It is the second sentence on the top left of page 21. I left out the word subsequent, which I have now added back in, but if you search for "set the agenda" it's there. Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:57, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 21:37, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ditto "biblical criticism has permanently altered perception of the Bible". (The ISBN provided seems to belong to a 2001 edition, but the citation indicates 2011? This may account for the discrepancy)
    The third edition is from 2001, and the fourth is from 2011, so that was a typo on the third edition date. The quote is on page 22 of the third edition, under "Conclusion", about half way down that first paragraph. It's there. Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:57, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm looking at this. The content is there, but it is not identical to what is in the article - the quote there is "biblical criticism has already permanently altered the way people understand the Bible". Nikkimaria (talk) 13:15, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 16:49, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "polemic, and not an objective historical study" - again, not quite the same as the source.
    It is the same as the source. There are no page numbers on the google version, I had to get them from resources, but if you go to amazon, all you can see is the paperback edition which slightly alters the page numbering. On page 15, in the fourth paragraph, it says "it is a polemic not an objective historical study". The masterpiece of world literature quote is on page 22. It is the same as the source. Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:57, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    The quote you're providing here matches the source, but is slightly different to the one that's in the article. As below, you can change typography, but any change to wording should be indicated. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:15, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 16:49, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "not have an inkling" - not quite the same as the source.
    It is exactly the same as the source. Again, in the paperback version available on amazon it is on page 10 in the paragraph beginning "The monograph..." it is the last sentence in that paragraph. Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:57, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Nikkimaria Since I have now learned a thing or two from you by now, I went and checked this and fixed its exact wording. It matches now. Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:30, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

MOS:QUOTE allows for non-noted typographical changes, but other types of changes should be indicated. Check throughout. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:36, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • OkayJenhawk777 (talk) 16:49, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Looks like there are still issues of this type, some rather significant (eg FN78) - please check. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:23, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Those were parts of two sentences. All I did was specify what texts they were referring to when they said 'the texts above'. But I went ahead and removed it as there was no way to make it other than what it was and make any sense. I paraphrased instead and used a different quote. I hope it's good now. As to the claim there are significant issues of this type, I don't agree, but I will go back and check every individual quote to be sure. Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:33, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Nikkimaria I think - I believe, I hope - I have checked every quote in this article. They are all accurate, correct and verifiable. Please God, knock on wood, throwing salt over my shoulder and everything else I can think of.Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:26, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Text says "on the basis of which they are argued", source says "on the basis of which they were argued".
    I not only missed that the first time, but the second time through the article, and then again here. I had to ask someone else to point out to me the difference. So then I felt stupid. So, this is why so many people don't like using quotes huh? I used to love quotes. Not so much anymore. Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:58, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Text says "leading New Testament scholars", source says "leading NT scholars". (To be clear, this is a positive change, but it should be indicated).
    Okay added NT and bracketed New Testament. Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:58, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Text says "both more or less detailed", source says "both more and less detailed". Additionally this larger quote is presented as continuous in the text, but it is not so in the source, meaning that without reference to the original source we cannot know if the secondary author omitted other content.
    Added ellipses and removed last sentence so the reference only refers to that section with that continuous quote.Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:58, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Text says "Two elements embody this insight", source says "Two concerns embody this insight". There are other differences elsewhere in this long quote. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:28, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Divided the reference pages so it is clearer which part of the quote is where and added ellipses. Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:58, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • So, on the bright side these do verify the info is from the source referenced right? I have gone through and removed a bunch of quotes now. I used to love quotes, but now I know why others don't. I understand the rules, and why they are right, so I am not complaining, just a bit embarrassed I guess. I am apparently blind to the "translation" that goes on in my head. I will be more careful - and use fewer quotes - in the future. Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:58, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "G. E. Lessing (1729–1781) discovered copies of Reimarus' writings in the library at Wolfenbüttel when he was the librarian there" - the source says that he claimed to find them there but did not in fact do so
    I found a different page number and added the word 'supposedly' from the source because that is how they were published and no one really knows for certain.Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:33, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Nikkimaria Is this satisfactory? Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:42, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I changed the phrasing a bit. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:44, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay, thank you. Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:30, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Current FN47 is broken
    I've been moving stuff around for other commenters here and I was afraid that might happen so I copied all the references to my sandbox and found it there.
    Fixed. Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:33, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This became the third quest, and it focused on Jesus' teachings as interpreted by existentialist philosophy" - the cited source refers to this as the second quest
    There is currently no agreement on how to periodize these quests. I told another commenter that I just picked one and went with it, but I decided later that was lazy scholarship on my part, so I went back and included the fact there is no agreement and renamed the subsections.Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:33, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Is this satisfactory? Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:42, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:44, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls at Qumran in 1948 renewed interest in the contributions archaeology could make to biblical studies" - don't see mention of the Dead Sea scrolls on the cited page. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:23, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I added a page number that says it.Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:33, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Is this done then? Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:42, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:44, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you Nikkimaria. I'm glad you're back. Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:33, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "untenable and belied by all the pertinent facts" - only part of this quote appears on the page cited
    • I have added the next page as well now and moved it to directly behind the quote. Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:58, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Done? Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:42, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • Pages are fine, missing a word in the quote. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:44, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
          • of, of, OMG! I have spent too much of my life skimming and speed reading, and I don't even see those details anymore. It's there now. Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:55, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN107: what Google calls page 296 is not a page, it's the back cover. You'll need to be careful citing cover summaries because they are not always written by the author, although in this case the material being quoted appears elsewhere in the book
    • 107 is Nicholson and it references page 95, not 296. Could you be looking at something else? Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:58, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • "Yet no replacement has so far been agreed upon: "the work of Wellhausen, for all that it needs revision and development in detail, remains the securest basis for understanding the Pentateuch".[107]:296"? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:23, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • Okay, I found it. 107 was used 3 times and I didn't see that. I have corrected the page number. Thank you. Jenhawk777 (talk) 07:26, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Even the tendency to use direct discourse for indirect, which was uniform in the post-canonical material which we studied, was not uniform in the Synoptics themselves" - I do not see this quote on the page cited. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:28, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please keep checking these for me. I have gone through them multiple times and I just don't see what you see. I need your input. I want this to be perfect and can't seem to do that without you. Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:58, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "sought to establish the sources of the first five books of the Old Testament collectively known as the Pentateuch" - source specifies the Priestly Code of the Pentateuch
    • The correct source for that was after the next sentence so I have moved it up. It's Smend page 95. The Amos source has the claim about Wellhausen being the most influential of all source criticism's theories.Jenhawk777 (talk) 07:26, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "cut-and-paste book mentality" - don't see this quote in this form in the given source
  • "European scholars accepted the theory quickly and completely" - cited page says this theory is the "most accepted", but this statement goes beyond that. Is there another source supporting it?
    • I found another source that says widely accepted and regarded as classic and that's good enough, so I replaced the original claim and added a new ref. Jenhawk777 (talk) 07:26, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "short oral narratives evolved into long ones" - cited source ends differently
  • "form criticism has been relegated now from its high status in the past: it no longer attracts scholars" - don't see this quote in the given source
  • "Such is the question asked by Won Lee" - don't see this quote in the given source
  • "It can be said to have begun in 1957 when literary critic Northrop Frye wrote an analysis of the Bible from the perspective of his literary background by using literary criticism to understand the Bible forms" - the cited source mentions Frye's work, but I think this interpretation goes a bit beyond what's supported there
    • Okay, I added a ref that says he "more or less established the field" - without quoting. Jenhawk777 (talk) 07:26, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Frei was one of several external influences that moved biblical criticism from a historical to a literary focus" - don't see this on the cited page
    • The first sentence on page 3 of Beyond Form Criticism Essays in Old Testament Literary Criticism says: "Many external factors led to the rise of literary criticism... blah blah ... perhaps most notably Northrop Frye..." My statement is a paraphrase and not a quote. YAY! Jenhawk777 (talk) 07:26, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Aren't Frye and Frei different people? Nikkimaria (talk) 12:56, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • Yes, of course they are! That was just the first part of the claim. I don't know why I didn't say I have now added a second reference for Frei that discusses his influence. Sorry. Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:30, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "canonical criticism does not simply ask what the text might have originally meant, it asks what it means now to the believing community" - don't see this quote on the given page. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:23, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you Nikkimaria, thank you. I can't say it enough. If this succeeds it will be more due to your work than anyone else I can think of - including me. Jenhawk777 (talk) 07:26, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quote "existence of sources and redaction" vs source "existence of sources and redactions"
  • "analyzes narratives as complete tapestries, organic wholes" - this is too close to the source to not be quoted. Ditto "attends to the constitutive features of narratives"
  • Quote "narrative criticism is focused primarily on the text" vs source "narrative criticism focuses primarily on the text"
  • Quote "As a method, it appropriated" vs source "As a method, it typically appropriated"
    • Reduced that quote to make it clearer what is meant. Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:55, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quote "appreciate the texts based on their artfulness" vs source "appreciate the Bible itself by training attention on its artfulness"
  • The long "is this not because the Bible has lost its ancient authority" quote doesn't match the source, given its length it should be blockquoted, and this piece in particular is referring to the piece that has been omitted rather than what has been included
    • I have added ellipses so that it is an exact match now - I think. The piece omitted? Do you mean can the text as sacred be retrieved? That's paraphrased in the first sentence of the next paragraph. Otherwise, I don't understand.
      • I'd rather not block quote this. It deserves quoting, since this is a summary of the entire dilemma created by biblical criticism, but it won't benefit from being blocked off from the rest, and I think that would give it too much emphasis in this overall discussion of what bc has left in its wake.
        • Is that okay? Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:10, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
          • By "the piece omitted", I mean the piece just before the one I quote above. As amended, the "this" in "is this not because" appears to refer to "The labor of many centuries has expelled us from this edenic womb", but in the source it refers to something else. You could fix this and maintain the meaning simply by omitting "is this not because" and the question mark.
          • The formatting presents an issue with regards to MOS:BQ, given the quote's length. In this particular case you could shorten the quote without losing meaning by my suggestion above plus starting the quote at "No longer are...". Nikkimaria (talk) 22:22, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This question affects our innermost cultural being" is not on the page cited, and is slightly different from the quote that appears on a different page
  • FixedJenhawk777 (talk) 06:55, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "self-serving visions for the sake of a more honest crossing from the divine textus to the human one" is not on the page cited
    • Fixed
  • Quote "the sacrality of the Bible" vs source "the traditional sacrality of the Bible"
  • Quote "Thus we may say that the Bible itself may help retrieve the notion of a sacred text" vs source "Thus, in a first move, we may say that the Bible itself may to help retrieve the notion of a sacred text". (From what I can see in GBooks preview the first part of this quote should be checked as well)
    • redid this in a block quote, finishing off with a bang! Fixed! Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:55, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "proved itself a failure, due principally to its most basic assumption" is close enough to the source that it should be included in the quote following. Also that quote doesn't match the source
  • "minus its arrogance," - don't see this quote at the given source
  • The "By 1800 historical criticism" quote is long enough to require blockquoting - check for others. Also as with the previous NT -> New Testament quote change, this alteration should be indicated
  • "Conservative Protestant scholars (such as Edwin M. Yamauchi, Paul R. House, and Daniel B. Wallace) have continued the tradition of contributing to critical scholarship" - source?
    • The reference was after the next sentence for both sentences. I separated it, and the names are now in the last sentence as they required different page numbers. Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:55, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • This is now a quote with a multipage range - is that correct? Nikkimaria (talk) 22:22, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • The quote is on page 135; the names are from the other pages. Jenhawk777 (talk) 05:07, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in recent years, a steadily growing number of well qualified and published scholars" - this quote appears on a different page than the one cited
  • "École Biblique" - suggest giving the name from the source
  • "with the support of Pope Leo XIII " - don't think this reflects what's stated in the source
    • I should have said the unwitting support as he used Leo's points, but it's too long to include, so I just removed it. Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:55, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Kaufmann was the first Jewish scholar to fully exploit higher criticism to counter another hypothesis of higher criticism" - I see the source says Kaufmann was the first to user higher criticism to counter Wellhausen, but this claim is broader
    • It doesn't seen so to me because it is followed by the reference to Wellhausen, but I have changed it.
  • "attentive to culture, race, class and gender" - don't see this quote at given source
    • It's the very last sentence on page 12 and ends on 13 Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:55, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Such developments included varieties of American metaphysical theology..." - quote doesn't match source
  • "Lois Tyson says this new form of historical criticism developed in the 1970s. It "rejects both traditional historicism's marginalization of literature and New Criticism's enshrinement of the literary text in a timeless dimension beyond history".[191] Literary texts are seen as "cultural artifacts" that reveal context as well as content, and within New Historicism, the "literary text and the historical situation" are equally important"." - in the version of this source available on GBooks, all of these quotes are on a page other than the one cited. Are you citing a different version?
    • No I just had the wrong page number. Fixed Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:55, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nikkimaria I have been back through these and don't see any left unaddressed, but as we both know, I am prone to miss details! Please let me know if you find these sufficient or if there is more left. Thank you again. I was bragging on you earlier today. All of the FA reviewers here really. You have all been amazing and I am truly grateful. Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:50, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Pass on source review and spotchecks. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:01, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie edit

Resolved issues

Starting a section for my comments. Jen, I will make minor copyedits as I go through the article; if you disagree with any of them, feel free to revert them. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:34, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've skipped the lead, since I think it's worth reading that last, to judge if it's a good summary of the article, and am starting with the "Definition" section.

  • I'm not sure I fully understand the argument being made in this section. By "historical concerns", I assume what is meant is the attempt to tie events in the Bible to events in history? If so I'd clarify that inline before we get to "those who attack it...". And then are the attackers and supporters attacking and supporting all biblical criticism, or just traditional biblical criticism?
    I apologize for this section not being more polished and focused, it was only added a few days ago. So I have now removed that sentence, defined historical concerns better and shortened it. I hope that's an improvement.
  • What does the second sentence tell us that the first sentence doesn't? Other than the term "historical-critical method" doesn't this just repeat the first sentence?
    It's gone.Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:18, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't know what Barton means by saying that the study of history can be "critical or non-critical" or when he says that a critical study can be "historical or non-historical". I think this is because I don't yet know a simple definition for "biblical criticism" so I can't follow the details of a debate about it. For Barton (or anyone), what is a biblical critic trying to achieve, beyond the question of historical accuracy? I'm deliberately asking these questions without having read the rest of the article, which I suspect would answer some of these questions, because I think we want the article to answer the questions clearly up front.
    That's gone now too. Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:18, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • A suggestion: Harrington's definition is, for me, the clearest thing in the paragraph, and might do well as a lead-in. Is this a controversial definition? Do we need to give Harrington's name inline here, or can we just cite him?
    I've been told to attribute every quote, is that not standard? I flipped the order and put Harrington first. There are three main points to this definition I wanted to be sure and communicate: History, reason (scientific) and neutrality. It is the change in these three aspects that indicate this form of traditional BC is now dead but that it has transformed into other forms with other standards. Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:18, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • When we say "accusations" of positivism it's implied that some consider positivism inappropriate for biblical criticism, but we don't say why that is.
    I took out the stuff on positivism. It was a sidetrack and not on point. Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:18, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why would borrowing a method from classical philology make it neutral? Neutral with respect to what? Similar I don't understand the last quote from Barton: what does he mean by "value-neutral"? And does "this study" just refer to biblical criticism? It doesn't seem to -- that would mean he's saying "Biblical criticism approaches biblical criticism in a value-neutral manner".
    I have rephrased these but the neutrality is important to keep in the definition. Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:18, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to stop there for the moment, since I suspect if I understand this paragraph fully I'll have a lot easier time reading the rest of the article. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:58, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you so much for showing up and doing this. I am genuinely deeply grateful. Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:18, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Those changes are a big improvement. Re attributing quotes: it can be a judgement call, and editors can disagree, but generally quotes that are opinions should usually be attributed inline, and quotes that are not don't have to be (though they do have to be cited immediately after or very close to the end of the quote). It's often a good idea to make it clear to the reader why they care about someone's opinion -- e.g. "John Barton, a biblical scholar, ...".
    Is Harrington's definition something almost all scholars would accept? If so, I think we could paraphrase it to avoid the issue of whether we give Harrington's name as the source -- the converse of attributed controversial opinions is that if you attribute a quote, readers may assume it's not universally accepted. How about: "The goal of biblical criticism is to understand what was intended by the original authors of the bible, using methods from literary analysis and historical studies."? That could be cited to Harrington without having to quote him.
    In any case, I'll go ahead with reviewing the rest of the article; your rewrite has made things much clearer. I still have some questions about this section but I'll come back to it later. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:26, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • In all honesty Mike, everything in BC is an opinion. They are educated opinions, and some have stood the test of time, but in reality, there is very little that has and very little that there has ever been any ongoing agreement about. Scholars argue about what criteria to use to judge these texts, whether the criteria themselves are valid, what methods are valid, if any, and why secular methods don't easily transfer to what Mike Grant calls the "idiosyncratic" gospels. Very few, if any, conclusions in this field can ever be called 'facts'. None of it is set in stone. Today's discovery is tomorrow's object of ridicule. It's frustrating - and fun - in my opinion. :-) Jenhawk777 (talk) 07:16, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
History edit
Resolved issues
  • Any reason for including the birth & death dates of each person named? I see it does provide a rough chronology for the comments. I wouldn't oppose over this but it's not a style I've seen before.
    You are the second person to ask me about this, so perhaps I should reconsider. I included them because without dates it is simply impossible to keep straight who and what came first. It's easy to get it all muddled up with so much here as it is, but if there's a date you can look at, you can at least have something to check. This isn't the kind of article that attracts casual viewers, but I fully expect it to be used by those actually studying anything from this page. If the number of times it's been backwards copied is any indication, it will be. So for those student's sakes, the dates are there. I'd like to leave them if you aren't hard over but if you feel strongly about it I will remove them. Jenhawk777 (talk) 07:46, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I think it's OK; it's just something I haven't seen before. I agree it helps in keeping things straight. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:22, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Turretin (1671–1737) attacked conventional exegesis (interpretation) and argued that revelation was necessary: what does "conventional exegesis" mean? And does "revelation" here refer to personal revelation? If so I think that should be clearer.
    Okay, I went and worked on that paragraph some more. Since it was a discussion of rationalism, I removed exegesis - a whole different subject - and tried to focus it there and used divine revelation to make it clear that was the discussion. What do you think? Jenhawk777 (talk) 07:46, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Much clearer. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:22, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • This has become a common Judeo-Christian view. This seems to imply there are strands of biblical criticism scholarship outside the Judeo-Christian view; is that what's intended here? Or do you just mean that the rational approach, in addition to informing secular commentary on the bible (as one would expect) has also become the default approach for Judeo-Christian scholars?
    There are, to the first question, and yes to the last. Actually, these were almost all Christian scholars from the beginning, still, not all of the results of BC have become commonly accepted throughout Christianity. This one has. Jenhawk777 (talk) 07:46, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    OK; striking since you've cut it. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:22, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The link to cognitive science of religion from Modern psychology recognizes this concept doesn't seem helpful to me. Do the sources draw a connection between Semler's views and the modern discipline of cognitive science of religion? If so I think we should be explicit; if not I don't see the value in the connection.
    Throughout this article I mention modern concepts that have their roots in BC. It's part of what eventually morphs it into something else. Psychological biblical criticism is a modern form of BC now. It is not connected to Semler but to an idea that he had 100 years before there was such a thing as psychology. Jenhawk777 (talk) 07:46, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I see. I think we could be clearer about what is and isn't being asserted here. How about replacing "Modern psychology recognizes this concept" with "The study of this kind of distinction now forms part of the modern field of cognitive science of religion"? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:22, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 04:56, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rogerson's comment about two views, and the subsequent discussion of Reformation views, is out of chronological order with the discussion of the Enlightenment scholars. Given the comment by Herrick I suspect this is because the idea that biblical criticism can trace its roots to the Reformation is a minority view, so we should deal with after discussing the Enlightenment, not before. If that's so I'd make that clear at the start of the Reformation paragraph -- otherwise it seems we've jumped back in time for no reason.
    You're exactly right, it is a minority view. I have moved it, but I am unsure if I put it where you intended. I think I like it there though. Jenhawk777 (talk) 07:46, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    That works, but could we combine that sentence with the next like so: "John W. Rogerson reflects a twenty–first century view of biblical criticism's origins that traces it to the Reformation; this is a minority position but the Reformation is the source of Biblical criticism's freedom from external authority imposing its views on biblical interpretation." The two thoughts are somewhat related and connecting them would help the flow. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:22, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 04:56, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • You mention Tindal as a Reformation thinker but per his dates (and the Wikipedia article on him) he appears to be considered an Enlightenment figure.
    So is Grotius in my view. Hmmm. I have moved Tindall up to the paragraph on Deism. See what. you think. Jenhawk777 (talk) 07:46, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    That's definitely better; putting Rogerson later helps. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:22, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Am I right in thinking that the deist rejection of revelation, and the associated humanist preference for a reasoned approach instead, are what connects the British deists to the early stages of biblical criticism? Some introductory statement in that paragraph to that effect might be a good signpost to a reader, who otherwise might not see why Camerarius's and Grotius's methodological approaches are listed under the same heading as Tindal's more theoretical commentary.
    See if moving stuff around clears that up any. If not we can do more. Jenhawk777 (talk) 07:46, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    That clears it up. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:22, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • What was modern about Michaelis's 1750 introduction to the New Testament?
    It was the first of its kind because it used biblical criticism. I added the word critical - does that clarify that? Jenhawk777 (talk) 07:46, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:22, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • the importance of an eschatological and historical approach to understanding Jesus: I don't understand this use of "eschatological". I think of it as related to millennialism, or else as a theological concern. I don't see how it could be used as an approach by biblical critics.
    Ooooh! That was Schweitzer's whole basis! Eschatology is about the end of things. Schweitzer said Jesus as an apocalyptic preacher who was motivated by his repeated warnings about the ends that were coming: the end of Jerusalem and the sacrificial system and the Temple and second Temple Judaism, and the end of time itself, and millennialism, yes. Schweitzer thought these ends were one and the same to Jesus and the early church, though there is rabid argument against that view today. Still, the point is that everyone now thinks the only way to properly understand Jesus is through his eschatology. Jenhawk777 (talk) 07:46, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    That's clearer than what's in the article now! And your comment that everyone now thinks that way doesn't come through at all in the article's phrasing. How about changing that sentence to "According to Schweitzer, Reimarus' was wrong in his assumption that Jesus' end-of-world eschatology was "earthly and political in character" but was right in viewing Jesus as an apocalyptic preacher, motivated by his repeated warnings about approaching ends -- both earthly and spiritual ends. This eschatological approach has since become universal in modern biblical criticism. Schweitzer also comments that Reimarus was a historian..."? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library)
    Done. I only have one question: does your brilliance blind you when you look in the mirror? Because these are brilliant, absolutely brilliant suggestions. I love them. See now, didn't I tell you this would be fun? You are really good at this! Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:56, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I'll read through the changes this evening, but this made me laugh! Any tendencies I may have to consider myself brilliant are very effectively kept in check by my family. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:30, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • source criticism would, according to Schweitzer, provide the solution to the problems Reimarus raised: I don't know what this refers to.
    Okay, I added literary consistency. How is that? Jenhawk777 (talk) 07:46, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    That does it. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:36, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why do we summarize Semler's response to Reimarus' if it had no longterm effect?
    It had the effect of temporarily suppressing it, but it's mostly significant because Reimarus outlasted it. Jenhawk777 (talk) 07:46, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    See next comment. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:36, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reimarus' writings had already made a lasting change: suggest cutting "had already"; I don't think it adds anything.
    But it's a comparative to the long term effect comment. isn't it necessary for that? Jenhawk777 (talk) 07:46, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Ah, I see. Then how about rejigging the connection between those sentences: "...saying Semler "took Reimarus apart sentence by sentence". Semler's critique had no long-term effect, however; Reimarus' writings had already made a lasting change..."? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:36, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes! DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 04:56, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • ...postulated a sharp contrast between the apostles Peter and Paul. Since then, this concept has occasioned widespread debate...: It's not really a concept; it's a theory, or perhaps a suggestion.
    Everything here is a theory, an idea, a concept. I don't really understand this comment but I went and removed the word concept anyway. Jenhawk777 (talk) 07:46, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    You may be right, but I've struck the comment since it's moot now. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:41, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The paragraph about "continuing the aims of the Protestant Reformation" is contorted by the complicated attributions. I don't think it matters that Prior is where you got the Grant/Tracy quote, or that Brown is the one who asserts the importance of Troeltsch. Suggest changing "Joseph G. Prior quotes Robert M. Grant and David Tracy as saying" to "According to Robert M. Grant and David Tracy", and changing "Brown also writes that, by the end" to "By the end".
    Done.Jenhawk777 (talk) 07:46, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Your section heading says "the second quest"; our article Quest for the historical Jesus dates the second quest to 1953. I'm happy to believe it's wrong and you're right, but I wanted to check.
    There is some disagreement among scholars over whether there are two, three, or four quests, or whether it can be seen as continuous but fluctuating. Since this isn't an article on the historical Jesus, I just went with one of them.Jenhawk777 (talk) 07:46, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    That's fine then. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:43, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • David Strauss (1808–1874), whose cultural significance was weakening the established authorities I don't know what this means.
    As you have asked a couple of times, why are we mentioning these people? What is their significance? That is seen as Strauss's most lasting cultural significance. Is there a better way to say that - without making it longer? Jenhawk777 (talk) 07:46, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    No, I really meant I just didn't understand what it says! Does "cultural significance" mean significance outside the scholarly community? Or was it an impact on the culture of that community itself? And what does "established authorities" mean -- is this an echo of the Reformation's weakening of the obligation to accede to ecclesiastical hierarchy? By the late 1800s, in Protestant Germany, it doesn't seem that that would count as a strong cultural influence. Though I recall reading in biographical snippets about J. S. Bach that his employers, the burghers of the towns he worked in, were extremely strict in religious matters, so perhaps this is a reference to conservative cultural expecations among the laity? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:48, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Reworded, is it better? Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:56, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, that's clearer. I linked christology, but shouldn't that be capitalized? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:29, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • proving to most of that scholarly world that Jesus' teachings and actions were determined by his eschatological outlook; he thereby finished the quest's pursuit of the apocalyptic Jesus. A couple of things I don't understand here. To say that Jesus's teaching and actions were determined by his eschatological outlook sounds to me like a theological statement about the nature of Jesus' time on Earth and the reason for his behaviour, but I don't see why it would have any impact on scholarly research or historical criticism, particularly by secular scholars. And I also don't know what is meant by "the quest's pursuit of the apocalyptic Jesus".
    Hopefully the discussion above about Schweitzer addressed this. The vast majority of scholarly biblical criticism was done by Protestants. Today the field is still filled more with religious scholars than secular ones. Theology is wound through it. BC tries not to begin from a theological vantage point - but it often ends there. The goal is to discern meaning, and that is theology. Jenhawk777 (talk) 07:46, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, it does; this is not an issue any more. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:53, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's it for tonight; I'll pick this up in the morning if I have time, otherwise it'll probably be tomorrow night. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:12, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No problem. I am grateful for this. Your comments have been substantive and produced real change to the article. Take your time. Whenever you can come back, I will be glad to see you. Jenhawk777 (talk) 07:46, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I'm enjoying the read; it's always a pleasure to learn from an expert, which you clearly very much are. Whether or not this article passes FAC this time I'd be glad to keep helping with it. I'm mostly out of time for tonight but will look in again in the morning. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:53, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Anytime you look in you will be welcomed. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:56, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The "Historical Jesus: the third and fourth quests" section repeats some of the material above it -- the 1953 date, and the Jesus Seminar. I assume you separated this out because it's an important topic, but I think the repetition is not ideal. Is it not possible to absorb this material into the "Twentieth century" section? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:51, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I decided I had not given enough attention to these little separate sections and have now gone back and added some and redesignated them. I followed your advice and moved some of it to the 20th century. I hope you find it improved. Jenhawk777 (talk) 16:20, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    That's definitely better, and relates to the previous text better too. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:51, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps move Holtzmann's sentence up to the end of the introductory paragraph of the "Nineteenth century" section? I assume Holtzmann's importance is that he was the first to seriously attempt this (and I assume here we're talking about identifying Mark as an early gospel and John as late?)? The bald statement as it stands doesn't integrate well with the flow; wherever it goes we should make it clear why he's worth mentioning.
    I know! I have moved him around more than pieces on a chess board. I think I like your choice though. See if you agree. Jenhawk777 (talk) 07:46, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    That feels like the right place, but perhaps if we can connect that sentence to the rest of the paragraph it will flow better. How about starting the sentence like so: "It was a member of this school, H. J. Holtzmann (1832-1910), who was the first scholar to develop a chronological ordering of the New Testament texts..."? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:41, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Except he wasn't one. He doesn't integrate well anywhere. I suppose I could remove him altogether. It isn't a major landmark. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:56, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    How about making the connective tissue the fact that he was not part of these other schools? Something like "At the same time, H. J. Holtzmann (1832-1910), who was not associated with the Göttingen school, ..."? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:29, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 23:25, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Major methods edit
Resolved issues

Starting a new section for this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:54, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Theologian David R. Law writes that textual, source, form, and redaction criticism are employed together by biblical scholars, while the Old Testament (the Hebrew Bible) and the New Testament are distinct bodies of literature that raise their own problems of interpretation and are therefore addressed separately. Separating these methods, while addressing the Bible as a whole, is an artificial approach that is used only for the purpose of description. I don't follow this. He starts by listing four methods, and then he notes that the OT and NT are distinct entities and should be approached independently. What does "separating these methods" mean? Is he criticizing those who, e.g., do form criticism on both the OT and NT while ignoring other methods? What does he mean by "artificial approach" and "for the purpose of description"?
    I suppose this is me being persnickety. I wanted to be sure that I made it clear that the way this is discussed in this article is not the way biblical criticism is actually practiced. This article discusses BC as if it studied the whole Bible together and the methods as if people only do one of them at a time. That's artificial - this discussion here. Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:55, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Your rewrite makes this much clearer. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:07, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Numbers and dates... As it happens textual criticism is one of the few topics you cover that I've read about more than casually; I spent some time reading about the families of manuscripts of Bede's Historia Ecclesiastica and the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, so I found this section straightforward and interesting. However, it's a long article, and if you're looking for something to cut I think this paragraph could go. It will be covered in textual criticism of the New Testament, and might be a bit too much detail for this article.
  • Brilliance is making you radical! :-)
  • Generally I think some compression might be achieved by dropping the in-text attributions and doing some more rephrasing. I know you said above that everything in biblical criticism is opinion, but definitions of terms and methods are pretty straightforward, and I don't think the reader needs to know that Ehrman or Aland or Andrews is the one who provides the definition, or to see their exact wording. Similarly, the example of Amos 6.12 is very helpful, but does the reader care that McGann and Cooper are the sources for this discussion? Their names are in the citation if the reader is curious. By contrast, when you say scholars such as Arthur Verrall referring to it as the "fine and contentious art", that's an opinion (and a good illustrative quote) and I think attributing it to Verrall inline is the right approach.
  • This is a fine example of the new disease called FA paranoia that is turning mental health agencies upside down. People are walking into clinics all across the nation with zombie like stares muttering about citation and attribution. I would go but my health care won't cover it. Okay that did shorten it a bit.
  • DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 23:55, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Clearly we need a vaccine. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:07, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Latin scholar Albert C. Clark: suggest combining this with the previous paragraph as a continuation of the argument; the break from statement to response isn't strong enough for a paragraph break, in my opinion. Samuel Delany says somewhere that the "emotional unit of prose is the paragraph", and I find that a helpful way to think about whether to join or split paragraphs.
  • I originally had it as one paragraph but it was so long, I split it for that reason alone. It is a continuous thought, you are absolutely right, but if it gets lost in the middle of an overly long paragraph, what good is it? And this is a really cool discussion imo. Can we negotiate this? Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:55, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Let's leave it as you have it; it's within the range of different prose styles, and I'm not trying to write this just the way I would. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:07, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps too specific for this article, but I was interested in the mention of computer-assisted methods for textual criticism. Have there been any significant discoveries made by this approach?
  • Yes! That's part of Alland's book! But beyond a single mention it's too much for this article. It might fit in yours though.Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:55, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reading about Astruc's work sent me back to the history section to see what you said about Astruc there. It's going to be difficult to avoid some repetition, because clearly the history section has to give some idea of what Astruc did, but he also has to be mentioned in the section on source criticism. To be honest I'm not sure what can be done about this but I'll keep thinking about it because it's a little jarring to have Astruc re-introduced as if he hadn't been mentioned before. I think the answer is to tweak the prose in the later section to make it evident to the reader that we know this name has come up before but they're not expected to remember all the details. I'll think about this some more and will copyedit if I think I have a way to improve it.
  • That assumes someone is reading their way through and not just jumping to the section they need. Gerda Arendt told me every section should read as if they were meant to be read alone because that is how a lot of readers do read WP. I know there is repetition. Perhaps some of your brilliant rewording would work. I actually did try to make it slightly different but perhaps you can do more. Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:55, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Struck; I might come back to this later but I take your point. Gerda's right, of course, but we have to accommodate both kinds of reader -- the ones who read the whole article as well as the ones who jump to specific sections. It's a balancing act and I think readers understand they may have to look back up the article for context if they jump to the middle. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:39, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The French physician Jean Astruc presumed in 1753 that Moses had written the book of Genesis, which is the first book of the Pentateuch, but had done so using ancient documents. Astruc's goal became one of identifying and reconstructing those documents by separating the book of Genesis back into those original sources. Suggest "The French physician Jean Astruc presumed in 1753 that Moses had written the book of Genesis (the first book of the Pentateuch) using ancient documents; he attempted to identify these original sources and separate them again."
  • I think it would be good to tie the material about his findings together by tying them more directly to his conclusions. You do this with the sentence about the flood narrative, which points out that the repetition indicates there might be three sources. What if we move that up and add the other two examples as backup to that, so the reader is clear these are all examples, like so: "For example, he found repetitions of certain events, such as parts of the flood story that are repeated three times indicating the possibility of three sources. He discovered that the alternation of two different names for God occurs in Genesis and up to Exodus 3 but not in the rest of the Pentateuch, and he also found apparent anachronisms: statements seemingly from a later time than Genesis was set. This and similar evidence led Astruc to hypothesize that this separate material was fused into a single unit that became the book of Genesis thereby creating its duplications and parallelisms." And I think you could cut "thereby creating its duplications and parallelisms"; the reader should understand that by now.
  • Suggest a paragraph break before "Examples of source criticism include..." since this introduces the following sections.

More later. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:57, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Old Testament scholar Karl Graf (1815–1869) had suggested P for the Priestly source in 1866 as the last stratum of the Wellhausen theory. (This is why Wellhausen's theory is sometimes also referred to as the Graf–Wellhausen hypothesis.) By 1878, Wellhausen had included P in his theory and written that it was composed during the exile under the influence of Ezechiel. Suggest "Old Testament scholar Karl Graf (1815–1869) suggested an additional priestly source in 1866; by 1878, Wellhausen had incorporated this source, P, into his theory, which is hence also referred to as the Graf–Wellhausen hypothesis. Wellhausen argued that P had been composed during the exile, under the influence of Ezechiel". And I see you use "Ezechiel", the German spelling; shouldn't this be Ezekiel since this is not in a quote?
  • D (for Deuteronomist) was said to be written shortly before it was found in BCE 621: I don't know what "found" means; surely we're not saying there is an actual D ms. and it was found in BCE 621?
    • According to 2 Chronicles 34, the actual manuscript of the book of the law that we call Deuteronomy was rediscovered under king Josiah. Using Wellhausen's dating, which is probably wrong for multiple reasons, this works out to the seventh century BCE. I think I will go add this. DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 22:40, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      Interesting; if I knew that I'd forgotten. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:51, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • You capitalize "Supplementary hypothesis", "Documentary hypothesis", and "Newer Documentary Thesis", but I see for example that our article on the supplementary hypothesis does not capitalize it in running text, so I wanted to check if this is deliberate.
    • I did so because other theories are capitalized because they have WP pages of their own. Hmmm, this may be an inconsistency in the overall article, should I check? Does it matter if all theories are capitalized in every section? Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:40, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      Striking because I don't think it's a problem; I was just checking it's deliberate. Personally I'd stick with the capitalization used in the sources, but capitalizing to help the reader navigate is OK too. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:51, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Supplementary hypothesis can be seen as yet another evolution of the Documentary hypothesis that solidified in the 1970s: we don't have a clear referent for "Documentary hypothesis" -- do you mean the Newer Documentary Thesis?
  • The supplementary model is the literary model most widely agreed upon for Deuteronomy itself which has a uniformity of style and language in spite of also having different literary strata. I think what's intended here is that the Deuteronomist has been agreed to be a separate source, but that D itself is considered to be formed from an older base source supplied by other sources now difficult to separate, but detectable since the "different literary strata" provide stylistic clues. If that's what is meant, I'd change the start of the sentence, because as I read I thought "supplementary model" specifically meant the Deuteronomist as the oldest source, the Elohist as the central core document, with the Torah later assembled by adding a number of fragments or independent sources, so this made no sense. Perhaps "A primary underlying source, with additional supplementary sources, is the most widely agreed-upon model for Deuteronmy itself..."
  • You link "Lachmann fallacy" to Marcan priority; it might be best to link it to Marcan priority#Evidence since that's the section discussing the Lachmann fallacy.
    • I am unsure if I have done what you asked. I couldn't find any reference to Markan priority but I changed the Soulen reference to include the ref to Lachman as a chapter. It seems to have worked without freaking out that it's a duplicate. Is that okay?Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:40, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      This is the edit I meant to suggest. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:51, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redaction criticism assumes an extreme skepticism toward the historicity of Jesus and the gospels just as form criticism does. As far as I can see the article hasn't characterized form criticism in this way. Should it? Otherwise this seems to point to a discussion in the article that the reader won't find.
    • Oooh, one of those problems that results from writing about stuff you know about. Yes it does assume an extreme skepticism, and now I have to go find a source that says that. Okay I went back to critique of form criticism and added that.
  • The last sentence of the "Narrative criticism" section has a closing quote without a matching opening quote.

That's it for the methods section. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:57, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Legacy edit
Resolved issues
  • The Bible's cultural impact is studied in multiple academic fields. This process was attached to the universities, leading Michael C. Legaspi to say... You have a paragraph break here, but if I follow your intent the second part of this doesn't add much. How about "Studies of the Bible's cultural impact have long been part of multiple academic fields, leading Michael C. Legaspi to say..."?
    • Well, I wouldn't agree with "long", it's actually something that only really got going in the twentieth century. Let me see what I can do.
    • Please see what you think of that. Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:02, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Only one of the four sections under "Changes in methods" has a link to an article of its own. Are the others worth red links?

That's all I can spot in this section. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:00, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    • I am rewriting things in order to eliminate some of the attributions and quotes and to include links where I can. There aren't any links for some of these, and I wouldn't know how to title them to make a red link - which I was told FA didn't allow. See if you like the changes. Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:02, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      Struck, since it's not an issue for FAC, but redlinks are absolutely not a reason to oppose a FAC, and a coordinator would not treat that as a valid oppose. WP:REDYES is the relevant guideline: there's no obligation to include redlinks but they're a real benefit to the encyclopedia because they encourage the creation of the missing content. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:03, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Lead edit

I waited to read the lead until I'd read the whole article. Some comments:

  • Biblical criticism was the practice of critical analysis of the Bible that began in the eighteenth century and ended in the twentieth. This surprised me. I don't see anything in the body of the article about biblical criticism having ended, and in fact in the last paragraph of the lead you discuss biblical criticism as a continuing enterprise, albeit in new sub-disciplines.
    • Yes, new forms, and those new forms mean its original form is dead. It says "the Enlightenment form of biblical criticism has ended... " What they did and what is done now are not the same. What else can be said? Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:13, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      OK, so the original form is dead, but the article talks about the new forms too, so whatever is the topic of this article includes the new forms. If we can't refer to those new forms by the name "biblical criticism" then doesn't that mean the article is misnamed? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:57, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      Dearest Mike Christie, No, this article is not misnamed because the article is primarily about the original form, its types, its history, its legacy, and its progeny - which must be mentioned after all - though they get short shrift only as an aspect of BC's legacy - in one measly paragraph apiece - and that isn't even all of them! Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:11, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      Sorry, I guess that sounded like a negative comment, but I didn't mean it that way. What I meant to say was that if the progeny are now thought of as successors to biblical criticism, rather than part of biblical criticism, the body of the article should say that, and I don't think it does. For example, down near the end, the article says "Social-scientific criticism is part of the wider trend in biblical criticism" -- shouldn't these sections not call themselves part of biblical criticism? I'm really just saying that the lead and the body of the article need to agree on this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:22, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      It's okay, you're allowed to be negative if that's how you feel, and I understand the confusion about this. You are not alone. But I think we are arguing tomayto tomahto, potayto potahto. The "wider trend in biblical criticism" involves all the progeny. They all share that same surname - so to speak. They are all family, but that wider trend does not include the original enlightenment version, because, its distinguishing characteristics of neutrality and historicity are not the distinguishing characteristics of the progeny. The parent was about how the texts were formed - what was the original text, where did it come from and how- the progeny don't care. They care about the texts as they are in their final form - what we have now - about why they were written, what they produced, the effect they have - that kind of thing. The parent was historical, the progeny are almost all literary. They are different generations of the same family, but the generation this article is about has now passed on. The kids have taken over. Even the modern form of historical criticism gives equal weight to literary aspects. I think that is all implicit in the discussion of the new methods as part of BC's legacy. Does it really need to be hammered into the reader too? Perhaps you could have one of your brilliant ideas and come up with a sentence or two - and tell me where to put that sentence - that would sufficiently tie this together for you, and that would probably then solve any problems others might have as well. I have nothing right now. My brain is oatmeal. Jenhawk777 (talk) 03:57, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I understand the point you're making -- the current generation of critics do not use the techniques that are discussed throughout most this article. I think there are a couple of ways to deal with this. Here are the options that occur to me.
  • If modern critics do use the term "biblical criticism" to describe their discipline, then we need a term that lets us distinguish the old from the new --- "Traditional biblical criticism" vs. "modern biblical criticism", or "old" vs. "new" -- preferably terms that would be recognized by practitioners. The article does cover the newer discipline, right at the end of the article; I assumed there's not much about it because there's not yet much to say. So I would have thought even in this case it's not quite right to say, as the lead does, that "Biblical criticism was the practice...", because biblical criticism is still going on, albeit transformed. The first sentence could say: "Biblical criticism is the discipline of attempting to understand and explain biblical texts and the meaning intended by the biblical writers". I hope that's broad enough to include the old and the new. Then we could say "Traditional biblical criticism began in the eighteenth century and ended in the twentieth..." and later say "Modern biblical criticism began in the late twentieth century..." I think this would be enough, and it's the solution I think would work best, and it wouldn't require changing more than a few words.
  • If the modern critics don't use the term "biblical criticism" to describe what they're doing, then we need to use whatever term is used instead when we talk about them. That would mean changing the last two sentences of the lead and the "Changes in methods" section to use that term instead. If they do use that term, but you feel this argument doesn't really cover their discipline, and only really talks about traditional biblical criticism, then we need to figure out what their article would be called and make sure we distinguish the two in this article -- e.g. with a link at the end of the lead to that article saying it's the successor to biblical. That's why I was wondering if we needed to rename the article -- I was thinking it would have to be "Traditional biblical criticism" or something like that. But as I said, I don't think that's the right answer -- unless I'm mistaken, you do cover the modern discipline, though not in as much detail because there's less to say about it so far. So the first option above seems right to me. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:50, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Okay, dazzled by brilliance yet again!! I am not joking either, I mean it. I like this. Traditional biblical criticism is often referred to as historical biblical criticism, but all the children are also referred to as bc as well, so I will go do as you suggest and we will see how it works. I will have to work that through the rest of the article as well, so check me on that as well please! Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:34, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm a fan of this method, and I think it would also service us well to explain this distinction in the Definition section too. My remaining quibble is whether we can truly say "traditional forms of biblical criticism ended in the twentieth century." Do you have a source which says that, or—as I said below—has it just left the mainstream? In other words, I would probably just omit the "ended" part, just saying they transformed into new forms. Also, Googling "historical-biblical criticism" doesn't seem to bring anything up; do any scholars use that term?Ovinus (talk) 02:59, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ovinus and Mike Christie Used Mike's approach, and took out ended, did have to add something to definition, but I think that might be it. Try Googling historical criticism or higher criticism, but yes, there is already a source referenced that calls it historical-biblical criticism, and it's easy enough to find another if needed. These terms are flexible in their use and in the understanding of what they mean. Different people have used them differently. I'm guessing that is because they are so old. Anyway, if you guys like the changes then we are good here right? Let me know if not. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:09, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's better, but I don't know if it's clear yet. I'll keep it on the backburner for a bit. Cheers, Ovinus (talk) 04:16, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]


Resolved issues
  • Each of these methods was primarily historical and pre-compositional in its concerns. I don't know what is meant by "pre-compositional".
  • Literary criticism of the twentieth century differed in its approach by focusing on the literary structure, authorial purpose, and reader's response to the text through methods such as rhetorical criticism, canonical criticism, and narrative criticism. These original methods of biblical criticism permanently changed perception of the Bible, and in the process, also changed itself. What did "literary criticism of the twentieth century" differ from? Earlier literary criticism? Or do you mean that literary criticism introduced techniques to biblical criticism that differed from the ones described earlier in the paragraph? I think it's the latter.
  • And what does "in the process, also changed itself" mean? Do you mean biblical criticism changed itself? Why is this important to say? We just said new techniques were introduced, so this must mean more than that, but I don't know what is intended here.

That's it for the lead. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:00, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Overall edit

I'm leaning towards a weak support here. Support, because the material is all here, and I think the structure is right, and the prose is professional. Weak, because I think the article could be made to flow better. There's a lot of reliance on quotes, and on naming individual scholars. In places this is fine -- in the historical section, for example, one expects the story to be dominated by the names of the important scholars. Even there, though, I think the reader would benefit from hearing a single voice narrating the story, with the quotes used to illuminate the tale, rather than to construct it. This is not a fatal flaw, which is why I expect to support once the points above are addressed, but it's an area where I think real improvement is possible. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:00, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Okay, I can see the justice of the complaint that attribution interrupts the flow. Now that I have spent all the time on verifying every quote for Nikimaria, let me go back and see if I can remove some of them and make it flow a bit better. I already did some of that as you and I went through Mike, but I will go back and 'smooth' it a bit more, where I can, without removing too much of its authority. See what you think.Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:10, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Just one point left above, in the section about the lead. I'll switch to at least weak support once that's fixed. I'll read through again to see if I can remove the "weak"; I've already noticed the removal of some of the attribution and what I've seen so far is definitely an improvement. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:06, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Jen, I've read through again, and the flow is definitely better. Just the one point left about the lead, above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:47, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I did change it yesterday but have done so more today. See what you think of the last paragraph in the lead. Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:12, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support. The last issue I had was addressed. This is a fine article. One minor point which doesn't affect my support: "criteria" is used in a couple of places where I think "criterion" might be better, but I didn't want to fiddle with it myself since I'm not familiar with the material. The only really jarring use is criteria of neutral judgment has been changed which has a single verb with the plural form, but there are a couple of other places I thought a change might be worth looking at. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:19, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by CPA-5 edit

A contravorsal topic if I'd say so. I'm more a MOS type guy thus my comments wouldn't involve that much of grammer. Since it's big and I don't really have that much time to review it in one straight row, I will review it in a couple of parts. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 13:19, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

  • of critical analysis of the Bible that began in the eighteenth century and ended in the twentieth In the "History" section some philosophers and theologians are from the 17th century while only one Richard Simon just made it into the 18th century shouldn't this be changed into the 17th?
    Spinoza and Hobbs wrote books but they were isolated events that preceded the actual beginning of biblical criticism. BC starts with Simon. Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:35, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • historical basis for the man Jesus separately I don't think "Jesus" should be linked since he is MOS:OVERLINK.
    Okay, I have no problem doing that, but I might need consensus as I was told to put in that link, and if I take it out it seems likely someone else will put it back.Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:35, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • If it is so then I don't mind to.

Definition

  • Section has no links per MOS:UNDERLINK please add some links here.
    I apologize for this section, it was only added a few days ago. It has been rewritten now. See if you think it's improved. Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:35, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • As far as I can see there's only one link which is still MOS:OVERLINK.

Can you tell me where it is? How do I go about finding overlinks for myself? It's such an easy mistake to make. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:52, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • "generally do so by emphasizing its essentially historical character".[1]:32,33 Per this two diffrent pages should have an en dash.
    That line is gone. I put commas and not dashes between page numbers when I want to communicate that the information is on each page separately, and when I want to say it's contained on all the pages in between a well, then I put a dash. I hope you're okay with that. Some discussions in the sources are lengthy. Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:35, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm okay with that; didn't know it was meant to be two pages even though it's weird 'cause if I'm not wrong in this situation an en dash was required. Since the other pages should have separate citations but I could be wrong here.
  • You are indenting differently than I am which makes me think I am doing it incorrectly. Am I? Anyway, yes some of the pages do have an en dash in them but not all. Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:59, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nah you're not incorrect if other reviewers say so then I might be incorrect. BTW I see some citations like "to biblical criticism.[55]:9,149" I think comma should be added in every citation who uses commas to separate other pages. On first view, I thought it was meant page nine thousand one hundred fourth-nine. I think a space would help here to separate these small issues.
  • I cannot find what you are referring to. Ref#55 is page 443.Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:28, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • John Barton says that biblical critics and historians agree that Historians sounds a little bit wide maybe explain which kind of historians they were?
    Gone Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:35, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • scientific methods and approaches as their secular counterparts.[1]:45,46 Same as above. An en dash should be added here instead of a comma.
    It's stated once on each page but their is no lengthy applicable discussion that connects the pages, so I used a comma. Others have asked about this and been okay with it. Please be okay with it. Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:35, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • emphasizes reason and strives to be objective.[1]:5,6 Same as above.
    Same as above. Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:35, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    CPA-5 Is this accepted as is? Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:20, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's it for now; will come back soon. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 17:37, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you and bless you for being here and doing this. I am deeply grateful. Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:35, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Eighteenth century

  • In the Enlightenment era of the European West I've never heard of the term European West?
    I could reverse it and say western European but I believe that is the term used in the source. The West is more than just Europe. Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:59, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hmm there are two sources here and if both use the term then I'm fine with it? Though it's odd to me and I'm probably not the only one but whatever if it's part of modern English.
  • Does American actually speak modern English? :-) Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:45, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Optional could not have written the preface to Deuteronomy (the fifth book) --> "could not have written the preface to the fifth book, Deuteronomy"
    DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 20:59, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • since he never crossed the Jordan into the Promised Land This is MOS:EGG; maybe add "River" after Jordan?

That seems redundant to me and perhaps irrelevant to the context. It seems to me that if someone doesn't know what the Jordan is, they won't care either, and it doesn't matter to the sentence or the concept. But if you feel strongly about it I will do it.Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:59, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • I disagree, if the river indeed were introduced before this sentence then yeah it's irrelevant but in general, the river should be added since there is are also Jordan Rift Valley and the Jordan Valley. Like MOS:EGG says "Per the principle of least astonishment, make sure that the reader knows what to expect when clicking on a link." since there are more Jordan-related articles than one; "river" should be added here.
  • John W. Rogerson reflects a twenty–first century A hyphen is okay instead of an en dash. Plus a hyphen between first and century is needed since it's a compound adjective.
    Is it? That is good to hear! More than one person has gone through here putting en dashes everywhere! Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:59, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • while also referring to it as "a masterpiece of world literature."[27]:22,16 Maybe switch the page numbers?
    the polemic quote is on page 22 and the masterpiece quote is on page 16. If I reverse them won't that create a verifiability problem? Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:59, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    CPA-5 Is this accepted as is? Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:20, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • independently of theology and faith.[12]:46.[27]:25,26,23 Same as above with "23".
    These are multiple ideas each taken from one of those pages in the order listed, but since they are not quotes I think it would be okay to put them together.
    DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 20:59, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • debated in the twenty - first century by theologians Is it normal to have spaces in the letter "21" here?
    I changed the dash in 21st century is that what you mean? I went with what you said above which I think looks a ton better! Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:59, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    CPA-5 Is this resolved? Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:20, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nineteenth century

  • "nineteenth century" vs "19th" maybe standerdise them?
    I think they are written out throughout the whole article. I was told to pick one and stay with it. Let me check. Ooops! found some!
    DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 20:59, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • theme in Herder (1744–1803), Schleiermacher (1768–1834), de Wette (1780–1849), Baur (1792–1860), Strauss (1808–1874), Ritschl (1822–1889) Maybe add their full names here?
    DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 20:59, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • form critics of the twentieth century until World War II Link WWII as I believe it's not linked yet.
    DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 20:59, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Martin Kähler is the only one who has no life span?
    Ooops! Done!Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:59, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The second quest wasn't considered closed until Albert Schweitzer (1875–1965) --> "The second quest was not considered closed until Albert Schweitzer (1875–1965)" per MOS:N'T.
    Ooops again! Fixed.Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:59, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • quest's pursuit of the apocalyptic Jesus.[47]:2–4[35]:173 Shouldn't the citations be switched in numerical order?
    Yes! DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 20:59, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Will continue later on. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 19:00, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you so much. It's been really helpful. Your comments have been really helpful. Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:59, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Twentieth century

  • was shaped by two main factors and the clash between them.[22]:20 May I ask you why there's an unnecessary citation here? There's another citation with the same page number just a sentence bellow.
    Because I'm getting paranoid about every word being properly cited. I removed one of them. Jenhawk777 (talk) 16:54, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 22:51, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • concentrated instead on the kerygma: the message of the New Testament.[49][22]:20 Maybe re-order the refs here?
    DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 16:54, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Same as Martin Kähler but this time with Rudolf Bultmann? Same with E. P. Sanders, Stanley E. Porter, Ernst Käsemanndoes
    DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 16:54, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • reinterpretation of the biblical myths ("myth" is defined as descriptions of the divine in human terms) Why is myth here linked?
    Ummm ... cuz I link everything? removed Jenhawk777 (talk) 16:54, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 22:51, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • composition of biblical critics began to change.[22]:21 Same as above with the unnecessary citation.
    DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 16:54, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • does not necessarily preclude the other.[69][46]:11 Re-order the refs here.
    DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 16:54, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • He also needs a life span.
  • I have not included life spans for anyone still living. Is that Okay? Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:20, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • E. P. Sanders explains that, because --> "Sanders explains that, because"
    Okay now, didn't you just have me adding full names above? Sanders is not referred to in this section before this sentence, and I was told each section had to stand on its own, so to speak, in case a reader only read the one section. You and I know who Sanders is but a reader might not. I vote for leaving it. Jenhawk777 (talk) 16:54, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • May I ask you have you read this sentence In the 1970s, the New Testament scholar E. P. Sanders (b. 1937) advanced the New Perspective on Paul which is a couple of sentences above?
  • It's still there are you sure you've removed the right "E. P. Sanders"?
  • Well I must not have if you say it's still there. I removed another one. See if that's right now. Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:16, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The rest will follow soon. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 16:01, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much.Jenhawk777 (talk) 16:54, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Have responded to your responses. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 18:42, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Have responded to your responses to my responses. :-) Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:51, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Textual criticism

  • New Testament is overlinked.
  • I only found one, but I removed it just in case. Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:16, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • are generally accepted to range from c.110–125 A circa template is needed here.
  • I went and looked for one here [21] and couldn't find one. Do you know where I could? Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:16, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • the next best-sourced ancient text is Homer What/who is Homer and link it?
  • Charting the variants in the New Testament shows it is 62.9% variant-free Per MOS:PERCENT we shouldn't use the symbol per cent with exceptions of "In the body of scientific/​technical articles, and in tables and infoboxes of any article, the symbol % (unspaced) is more common".
  • Link Greek New Testament.
  • Western (Latin translations), and Eastern (used by Antioch and Constantinople).[note 2][84]:213 Per this first citation and then note.

That's anything from my Sunday. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 17:19, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! :-) Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:24, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • CPA-5 Please check for anything that has not been resolved to your satisfaction. I want to be sure everything has been fixed or explained or whatever you require. Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:55, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hey Jenhawk777, I have some problems with my monitor and my eyes hurt because of it so I prefer not to be online that much or even not at all. Since Black Friday has passed and Cyber Monday is coming I'm not sure when I will get a new one. This year is gonna be a busy sales. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 09:11, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • CPA-5 You have my sympathy and understanding. I too have been having troubles with my computer, and I understand how frustrating it can be. If that means you can't post a conclusion here, perhaps User:Gog the Mild will explain what's proper to do.Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:01, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

All right I'm back but I'll be doing this much slower than expected. I hope I finish the sections' part (before I can move to the next phases like sources, images, infobox, grammar and issues in general) in the coming week. But I won't promise anything!

Problems of textual criticism

  • New Testament papyri, he concluded Clark was right, and Griesbach's rule of measure was wrong.[94][83]:214 Re-order the citations here.
  • For example, in the late 1700s, textual critic Johann Jacob Griesbach developed No life span?

Source criticism

  • written the book of Genesis (the first book of the Pentateuch) --> "written the book of Genesis" Genesis was already mentioned a couple of sections before.
    • Yes it's a slightly reworded restatement of what was already mentioned in the history section as the beginning of biblical criticism, but because it's the beginning, that's unavoidable. It has to be mentioned in both places. Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:04, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source criticism of the Old Testament: Wellhausen's hypothesis

  • establish the sources of the first five books of the Old Testament collectively known as the Pentateuch --> " establish the sources of the Pentateuch" The five books were already mentioned a couple of sections before. Also re-order the refs here.
    • Gerda Arendt told me that each section has to stand on its own as if the reader jumped there and didn't read the other sections - that I can't assume they know something just because I've said it before. Are you advising otherwise? Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:04, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Wellhausen hypothesis, also known as the JEDP theory, or the Documentary hypothesis, or the Graf–Wellhausen hypothesis proposes that the Pentateuch was combined out of four separate and coherent (unified single) sources (not fragments). I have some questions here: first where is the citation here? Second, why are some places in bold written?
    • The citations are listed separately where each of these is discussed. Another reviewer wanted them all listed together, he said it confused him when he got to the other paragraphs where it was called something else, even though I said 'was also called'. Bold's been removed. The only thing in bold is the Wellhausen theory as it's the title of the section. Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:04, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • before it was found in BCE 621 by king Josiah --> "before it was found in BCE 621 by King Josiah"

Critique of Wellhausen

  • which undermines arguments for their separate origins.[104]:36[100]:4[note 4] Re-order the refs here.
  • than Wellhausen thought.[109][99]:64[110]:11[note 5] Same as above.
    • DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 17:04, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • I reordered the refs as you asked putting them in numerical order, but this practice bothers me. When I have a compound sentence with multiple claims, I put the references in the same order as the claims to make it easier for anyone who wants to check and see the full context of what was said. My other alternative is to break up the sentence with a reference after each individual claim - or use simpler sentences - and neither of those seem like good ideas either. But piling them all at the end in numerical order makes me unhappy too. I don't know how to solve this. Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:04, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • has rejected the main claims of the Documentary theory Why has Documentary an upper case?
    • It's a title, a proper name. That's the only way I've seen it used. although I cant say how it's written everywhere. I can check if you like. I think the other titled theories are all capitalized as well. Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:11, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's anything for now. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 15:25, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • CPA-5 Glad to see you back! Thank you for all of this! Happy holidays! Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:04, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source criticism of the New Testament: the synoptic problem

  • As sources, Matthew, Mark and Luke are partially dependent on each other and partially independent of each other. I think you better can change "sources" to "books" since this makes more sense.
    • It references the previous sentence: "This has revealed that the Gospels are both products of sources and sources themselves. As sources..." If I change it to books, it introduces a new concept that is not previously mentioned. I can't say I agree that's a good idea. Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:11, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • but six hundred of those verses are in Matthew and 350 of them are in Luke --> "but 600 of those verses are in Matthew and 350 of them are in Luke"

That's anything for now. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 12:17, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you. Hope you and yours are staying safe and have a wonderful holiday season. Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:11, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am archiving this nomination. It has been open for nine weeks and there is little sign of a consensus to promote. The discussion above suggests that its nomination may have been premature. It also suggests that there is a promotable FAC there, with some further, off-FAC, work, and I look forward to seeing it back here in the future; subject to the usual two week wait. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:42, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ealdgyth via FACBot (talk) 2 December 2020 [22].

The Brute Man edit

Nominator(s): GamerPro64 21:38, 10 November 2020 (UTC), Hunter Kahn[reply]

Rondo Hatton IS The Brute Man! Or actually, he is The Creeper. Or is The Creeper actually The Brute Man? Whatever the case, this 1946 movie was Hatton's swan song as he died from complications caused by his acromegaly. It is believed that, fearing the film would be considered exploiting the actors deformity, Universal Pictures sold off the movie to Poverty Row. For a few decades it was considered a lost film until it resurfaced in 1982, where it was mass distributed for everyone to see how bad of a movie it was.

This is a co-nominator with me and Hunter Kahn, as explained in this discussion. We have previously done this with the nomination of Phantasmagoria (video game). And I believe that the article meets the standards of Wikipedia. GamerPro64 21:38, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Aoba47 edit

I am leaving this up as a placeholder, and I will post my review when I am done commenting on the Overdrawn at the Memory Bank peer review. Just so you know, I have not seen this movie or the MST3K episode. I have a few quick comments:

  • The TV Tropes page on this MST3K episode (here) mentions that Mary Jo Pehl was also uncertain about featuring the film on the series due to how it represents Rondo Hatton's illness. TV Tropes is obviously not a reliable source, but it does attribute Pehl's statements to an interview on the DVD release. If you have access to the interview and (this information is indeed true), it would be helpful to include in the article to further represent how multiple people in the show's production were uncomfortable with the film choice.
    • Ill have to watch my DVD copy to I need to find the time for this. GamerPro64 04:23, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Thank you for looking into this. Aoba47 (talk) 05:16, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • She does mention that in the episode. I added that mention in. GamerPro64 00:38, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • For this part, Jane Adams also starred as a blind pianist, I believe it should be stars since the previous sentence uses present tense and not past tense.
  • I would ALT text to the infobox image. Aoba47 (talk) 19:02, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would reword this sentence, The film was produced by Universal Pictures near the end of their horror film period, to avoid the passive tense. I think something like, Universal Pictures produced the film near the end of their horror film period, would be preferable since the focus is really on the film studio anyway.
  • In the lead, I would link Poverty Row as it is a relatively niche phrase. The Wikipedia article on the phrase capitalizes the phrase (and it is capitalized in the body of the article), while it is not capitalized here. Which way is correct?
    • Wiki-linked and capitalized. GamerPro64 04:23, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are a few times in the lead and in the article that you alternate between Universal Pictures and Universal. I would be consistent with one way or use Universal Pictures for the first instance in both and then shorten it to Universal for each of the subsequent uses.
    • Doing the latter. Trimmed it down to less usage unless it made sense to. GamerPro64 04:23, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • For this part, Universal released at least one B-western following the merger, would it be helpful to link Western? I have also primarily seen Western capitalized so it should be done that way here too. If Western is linked here, then make sure to link it in the body of the article as well.
  • Would it be worthwhile to mention in the lead that even people associated with MST3K expressed discomfort about the film's representation of Hatton's illness? It forms a rather substantial part of that subsection, and contributes to the overall narrative of how the film represents this and the critical response to it.
  • Jan Wiley should be linked in the plot summary.
  • Is there a reason Jimmy/Jack Parker is not included in the "Cast" section? I have the same question for the pawnbroker/Charles Wagenheim?
    • Added them in.
  • For some reason, the link on citation 12 is not working correctly for me. I try clicking on it, but it does not take me down to the "Bibliography" subsection like the other citations do.
    • I'm not sure how to rectify that. GamerPro64 05:18, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • I am not exactly sure either, but none of the Weaver citations link down the "Bibliography" subsection (at least for me). All of the other citations work properly so maybe compared them with the Weaver ones to see what the differences are? Aoba47 (talk) 17:47, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • For the sentence about this being one of Wiley's final roles, it may be helpful to add a brief explanation that this was because she retired from acting after marrying a year after the film's release.
  • For this part, The Brute Man was filmed in 13 days, I would move the citation to the end of the sentence as I think it awkwardly cuts up the sentence and interferes with its readability.
  • Link Vera West in the "Filming" subsection.
  • In the "Distribution" section, I would put (PRC) after Producers Releasing Corporation since I was initially confused on what the acronym stood for on my first read-through until I read it again.
  • I am uncertain if the quote box is entirely necessary in the "Reception" section, especially since it can be seen as putting undue weight on one critical opinion over the rest.
    • I would like to hear another persons take on the quote. I think its fine personally but another opinion would be nice. GamerPro64 05:18, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • That is fair. I do not have a strong opinion about it, and it would not interfere with whether or not I support the FAC in the future. It is also important to get multiple opinions so that is for the best. Aoba47 (talk) 17:48, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • For this part, The review stated most audiences, I would say The reviewer instead.
  • I would remove this sentence: Film reviewer Leonard Maltin gave the film one-and-a-half out of four stars. Unless more can be added about the review, I do not find the star rating alone to be particularly useful.
  • For this part, contemporary reviews of The Brute Man were similarly negative, I think you mean retrospective reviews as the reviews being discussed here were not released contemporaneously to the film's release.
  • I am uncertain about the third paragraph in the "Reception" subsection. The Willis sentence seems to be more of a negative review, while the Keith Brown parts are more of an analysis since it does not really work having them in the same paragraph as they are not particularly connected to each other. I would put the Willis part in the second paragraph as it is another example of a negative retrospective review, and I would live the Keith Brown analysis as its own paragraph.
    • This is part of a new analysis section. GamerPro64 02:34, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please add ALT text to the Lothar image.
  • I am uncertain about the MST3K screenshot. You have not used a similar screenshot for Squirm or Soultaker, and I am not sure there is a strong enough justification to include a piece of non-free media.
    • That was added by Hunter Khan and I would see the use of the shot from the show as to show how the film was presented in the series. I thought of doing that for Soultaker initially but decided not to at the end of the day. GamerPro64 05:18, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Thank you for the explanation, and that makes sense. Since MST3K has a rather substantial subsection (appropriately so), then I can now understand how the screenshot would help a reader who has never heard of or seen MST3K and would not understand how the riffing is done. You have convinced me that it is necessary. Aoba47 (talk) 17:53, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • For this part, the satirical TV series, spell out TV as television.
  • I would link to Mike Nelson (character) in this part, Michael J. Nelson, the show's head writer who also plays the character of the same name.
    • But that is Nelson himself saying that, not his fictional self. GamerPro64 05:18, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • I am asking you to link this part, the character of the same name, not change the link in the beginning. Since you mention the character in the prose, it should be linked. Aoba47 (talk) 17:41, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • I went ahead and linked it in the article. Aoba47 (talk) 17:50, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would not the year that Nelson and Chaplin made these remarks as I think it helps the reader to better understand that one was around the time of the episode's release and the other was retrospective.
    • I don't understand what you mean here. GamerPro64 05:18, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Nelson made his comments in 1995 (presumably in preparation for the episode airing early the next year) while Chaplin made his comments in 2001 (five years after the episode originally aired). I would add the years that each individual made these comments to the prose to give the reader a better understanding of the timeline, and I also think it adds to the reader's understanding of how this topic was a point of discussion around the time of the episode's release and years later. Aoba47 (talk) 17:44, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Whoops, I had meant to say "I would add the year" instead of "I would not the year". Apologies for the typo there. I just noticed it. Aoba47 (talk) 17:51, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would remove the Variety review from the "External links" section and instead incorporate information from the review into the prose.
    • Added it in the right section. GamerPro64 22:13, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Perfect Neanderthal Man": Rondo Hatton as The Creeper and the Cultural Economy of 1940s B-Films has some useful analysis on the film. I would pair it with the Keith Brown parts.
  • This SyFy Wire (here) can be useful in two respects. It offers another negative retrospective review of the film, and provides a review of the MST3K episode, specifically saying "the episode lets Hatton be and focuses instead on the awful script and bizarre side characters, most notably the incredibly angry grocery store clerk".
  • As you have done for Squirm, include information on how the MST3K episode was released.
  • There are a few books put in the "Notes" subsection rather than the "Bibliography" subsection. They are Jaworzyn, the American Film Institute, Rigby, and Friedmann. It is also confusing how citation 13 looks like it would the "Bibliography" subsection, but instead links to the Rigby book citation in the same subsection. I'd move all of the books down to the "Bibliography" subsection for consistency.

Overall, good work with the article. I will read through the article again once the above comments are addressed to make sure I catch everything. I hope you both are having a wonderful end to your week! Aoba47 (talk) 22:31, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • I will wait until Josh Milburn's comments are addressed before proceeding further in my review. Aoba47 (talk) 22:42, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

image review edit

  • Don't use fixed px size
  • Was the poster copyright renewed?
    • I have no idea how to check that. GamerPro64 00:49, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'd suggest starting here. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:01, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • I was told by them their database focused on books and not posters. GamerPro64 20:35, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:The_rocketeer_lothar.jpg is missing info on copyright holder. Ditto File:Mst3k_the_brute_man.jpg. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:15, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • I updated their rationales. GamerPro64 00:49, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from Spicy edit

Sorry, just a passing comment, but I keep tripping over this sentence in the lead: Most experts tend to believe that Universal simply found the exploitation of the deceased Hatton and his deformity for the third time, in his last film (in which evidence of his impending demise may be foreshadowed in his acting), and of a poorly-developed story, to be detrimental to its corporate image but did not want to take a financial loss by simply shelving the film permanently. There are too many clauses here and it's very hard to follow (for example, "the exploitation of... a poorly developed story"? and I had to go back and read over the sentence again to figure out exactly what "its" refers to...) This could be split up into two or three sentences. Spicy (talk) 13:14, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • I removed that entire part as I think that causes Undue weight in the lead. Meanwhile I expanded a bit in the lead to make it more meatier. GamerPro64 21:04, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Laser brain edit

Nice subject! An initial inquiry before I leave more comments:

  • Can you describe the decision-making process for whether or not to include a section on Themes? I've been noticing a trend in film articles of omitting what I would consider to be a critical piece of writing about a work of fiction. --Laser brain (talk) 15:38, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Honestly I do not think people have looked into the themes in this movie and and looked more into how bad of a movie it was. But I do not see anything about the movies themes. GamerPro64 00:38, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from JM edit

I can't promise I have time for a full review, but I'm always happy to chip in for an article on an old horror film.

  • Footnotes 12, 16, 20, 26, and 34 have harv errors -- the links are broken.
    • As mentioned above, I have no idea how to fix the broken links. GamerPro64 01:49, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • The bibliograpy entries have multiple authors, while the footnotes only have single authors -- that's your problem. I fixed one as an example. That said, I'm now seeing issues in the bibliography; I've listed some below. Josh Milburn (talk) 18:56, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is the whole film PD? I'm struggling with the licensing on the screenshot. If it's all PD, I'd love to see more images!
    • Looking at my MST3K boxset, the movie is under license by Films Around the World Inc. Which I guess specialized in orphan works but their website doesnt work anymore so this seems to be some copyright limbo. GamerPro64 01:49, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • I checked again. It is under Films Around the World so its not under public domain. Though it could have been taken from its movie trailer, if it had one. Those usually were not copywritten. GamerPro64 05:41, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Ok -- I think we're going to need something a bit firmer than that. I advise contacting the uploader. Josh Milburn (talk) 18:56, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm really not sold on the use of File:Mst3k the brute man.jpg. I can see a bit more of a justification for the other screenshot, but I do think it's a toss up on whether it should be included.
    • If someone else is not keen on the screenshot, I can remove it. GamerPro64 01:49, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see you note above that there has been no real analysis of the film; I had a sift through Google Scholar and came across this article, which definitely needs to be engaged with. At least one other chapter in that book mentions the film, but that one's a must.

Hope that's helpful. Josh Milburn (talk) 21:36, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Looking through the bibliography, as noted above, the following jumped out at me:

  • Inconsistent use of locations. I would recommend them for books, but definitely not for periodicals. I'd advise against linking locations. I'd also advise against providing publishers of periodicals, but courtesy links to the articles themselves would definitely be appreciated.
  • GOLEM looks like a real (albeit small) academic journal, though it appears to have dropped off the internet (which is worrying). Luckily, the article you're citing is here; may be some more content that can be pulled from it, but, at the very least, you can tidy up the bibliography a little.
  • At least a few of the books you're citing appear to be encyclopedias, handbooks, edited collections, etc. You should cite the particular chapter, rather than the book as a whole.
  • On the other hand, you do this wrong when it comes to the Legassic paper. If you don't know how to do this, see Template:Cite book#Examples.
  • You need page numbers for particular chapters/entries; you don't need page numbers when you're citing the whole book. Page numbers are provided in the footnotes.
  • Lulu is a self-publishing service. Is John Howard Reid a recognised expert in something relevant (e.g., history of film)? If not, I think that source will have to go.
  • The Forum is a postgrad journal, which I'd normally recommend against, but the author gained a doctorate on the topic of "terror films" and appears to have worked as a film critic, so I'm not completely opposed to it in this case.
  • I'm not sure how I feel about "Harbor Electronic Publishing" and Doug Pratt's DVD: Movies, Television, Music, Art, Adult, and More!. Why do you think this is reliable?

There may be other issues, too -- these are just some that jumped out at me. Josh Milburn (talk) 18:56, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, with regret. I'm afraid there are enough issues with sourcing, images, and comprehensiveness for me to oppose right now. I'll be happy to withdraw the oppose if the sourcing and image issues are resolved. Josh Milburn (talk) 18:56, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • @FAC coordinators: With the criticisms given that I do not believe I can do without Hunter Kahns help, and just not having my full heart in this right now, I would like to withdraw this nomination. GamerPro64 01:35, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
  1. ^ Clements RE. Book Review: The Pentateuch: A Social Science Commentary. Theology. 2001;104(820):277-277. doi:10.1177/0040571X0110400407
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