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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/American White Ibis/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 01:09, 18 January 2012 [1].

American White Ibis edit

American White Ibis (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:19, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fascinating bird this...from mass population movements, to having oodles of parasites, to changing colour of skin during breeding season. I started by rejigging this article for a new user and going from there. It had a very detailed Good Article review where Thompsma (talk · contribs) went over it with a fine-tooth comb....and I have found some other bits to add since. Anyway, have at it. Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:19, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support Comments from Jim Hi Cas, lots of good stuff, and the AE looks good to me (you could be the next Rupert Murdoch (: ) but some niggles Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:21, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I made a couple of tweaks, please check
  • Some overlinking, including methylmercury in consecutive sentences, but also others. Please check and make sure link is at first occurence
  • wading links to what the Americans call shorebirds
  • removed "wading" as it creates more problems by its presence than absence, given the different definitions Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:10, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the breeding season, the range spans along... — "spans along" sounds odd
  • Central America, and birds gather in huge colonies near water. Outside the breeding period, — "and" seems to be linking an unrelated theme, and I don't like the colonies stuck between the two range bits
  • pirate food away — Is "away" needed?
  • parapatric — link or gloss
  • matte — should this be "matt"?
  • as the inland marshes after usually flooded. — ??
  • Least Concern — why italics?
  • also caused American White Ibises to be more likely to abandon their nest — "nests"?
  • The University of Miami adopted the American White Ibis as the official athletics mascot in 1926,[56] the yearbook called "The Ibis" from that year. — doesn't make sense
  • I was a bit ambitious with the past participle, converted to proper clause now Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:09, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • university folklore — I'm happy that you can have native American folklore, but I need reassurance that it's also correct usage for the university
  • I've removed "university" - the actual folklore itself is native american and the uni adopted it Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:12, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 32 appears to be knackered
  • rem doi as jstor link is working fine and we only really need one... Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:19, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • (OR, so ignore if you wish) Ibises in Florida seem quite happy to scavenge along the sides of roads for leftovers, like the Sacreds in Africa and, I think, your local species. Is it really only starvation behaviour? Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:41, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I know - I am familiar with ours here and was looking for proper RS material on it, but couldn't find any. I will add when/if I find as it is something you and I have seen...have found some now. Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:13, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I thought that would be the case, I'll probe around to see what I can find too, but not optimistic. Otherwise, all is good Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:15, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Carcharoth (talk) 09:05, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • In the lead section, this bit needs more explanation: "The two have been classified as a single species." Some reading that will get confused unless you make clearer that some consider it a single species and others consider them separate species. This is one of those instances where relying on the more detailed explanation later in the article isn't enough. Maybe something like "These two species have been classified by some taxonomists as a single species"?
  • I know, weasel words are not normally a good thing, but I think "by some taxonomists/authorities" here is more helpful than nothing Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:08, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • When you name two researchers who "found evidence of interbreeding", you should give the year in the text (of when they published their proposal for one species).
  • Why is the bit about ibises in Native American folklore sourced to a university student newspaper? Surely you can find a better source than that, and surely there is more out there on this ibis in Native American folklore?
  • sigh - couldn't find any other source. Agree we need a better one. Need to think on this one and have a nose around Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:08, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Talking of which, is anything known about the evolutionary history of this ibis? When did the ibises as a whole first emerge in the fossil record. Nothing on this in the article at all. I looked at the Threskiornithidae article as well, and nothing there, so I'm presuming the ibis evolutionary history is not well known or murky. If so, this should still be stated somewhere rather than left out entirely. Presumably the range was larger in earlier times as well - what about during the initial colonisation of North America by Europeans?
  • Yes, I can add something actually. I need to go to sleep in a minute, and will add tomorrow Chesser 2010 tells us the Eudocimus is an early offshoot, while Krattinger's 2010 thesis has ages. I can't get fulltext but have emailed the author as it will be very helpful. Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:08, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • On the subject of evolution, while looking for something on that, I came across references to Apteribis, a flightless Hawaiian ibis that is thought to have evolved from this ibis. That is worth mentioning, especially if the standards for inclusion here extend to university mascots...
  • hmmm, not sure. Apteribis is very recent at 200,000 years old, so is much too recent to be integral to discussion of evolution of Eudocimus Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:19, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we have an article on the practice of 'pirating' food?
  • Some sources refer to this as the New World White Ibis. Should that be a redirect and should it be mentioned in the article?
  • interesting - the only sources which use the term are all those discussing the Hawaiian ibises. I can only guess why they used the term, as maybe because Hawaii is American territory and they want to differentiate, not sure. I'd be happier if we found a bit more generalised use of the name. Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:09, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it OK to have an external links section with only a Commons category template?
  • There may be some external links to add, so it may not be an empty section soon. The Commons category signpost should be in the last section of the article, rather than in a section on its own. Snowman (talk) 13:45, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Another few copyediting passes may be needed: "It has an mostly white plumage"; "the skin of the and legs darkens to a deep pink"; "A study of American White Ibis" (the ... Ibis vs of ... Ibises?); "reduce the birds energy consumption" (apostrophe missing); "American White Ibis are not faithful" (The American White Ibis is not vs American White Ibises are not?); "Breeding success of the" (insert 'The' at start of sentence); "Low and decreasing water levels predict good prey accessibility" (is 'predict' a technical term?); "Males are present around the nest in most of the day" ('for' instead of 'in'); "6 a.m." (I think the manual of style has guidance here); "sex dependent" and "larger sized" (hyphenation); "located on the border Columbia and Venezuela"; "Pumpkinseed island" (second occurrence, capitalisation); "aquatic insects there and the latter" ('there' is superfluous and can be lost); "coexist with the Scarlet Ibis, their diets differed" (tense - coexist versus differed) - I won't have spotted everything, as I wasn't reading slowly enough, so please do get it checked over some more.
  • I got those or ones I couldn't find seem to have been tweaked. I'll be nosing round for some more stuff to add (identified elsewhere on the page) so will keep reading as I go. Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:04, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks. I notice that "skin of the and legs" is still there. I'll wait until the material on evolution and folklore are added, as I'm unlikely to support before then. I'll check the changes at that point. One further point: there is text on the predation of the young and eggs, but nothing I can see (after a quite re-scan of the article) on predation of the adults. Presumably there are predators that would take an adult ibis, or is this rare/not covered in sources? Carcharoth (talk) 06:02, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • dang, got that last one now. I have not come across any specific discussion on predators of adults at all actually... Casliber (talk · contribs) 15:24, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise, looks good. May take a closer look later, especially if more is added on North American folklore or and presence in the fossil record and evolutionary aspects. Carcharoth (talk) 09:05, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • added some information on urban foraging, but has been very hard to find reliable sources with any information. Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:09, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • The length and wingspan of adult female and male is not given separately, yet other measurements are for male or female. Could be more consistent. Would a table present all these measurements better and include beak measurements? (Northern Bald Ibis has table of beak lengths)Snowman (talk) 13:42, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Description needs to add something about the pink face and blue irises of adults and colours of these in juveniles. Snowman (talk) 14:59, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am having trouble finding a source mentioning this. Am keeping looking Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:56, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have found a ref for the pink face, but not the blue irises. Snowman (talk) 21:33, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have now found two papers which go into detail about development of plumage (incl. iris) over time. Information now added, which has required some rejigging for flow, but I think works well now. Casliber (talk · contribs) 15:04, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • consensus is solidifying for this now. I'll double check official lists to see if we still need to add a footnote or something Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:24, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:42, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Source for dimorphism?
  • ref got separated during page rejigging. Now fixed by Snowmanradio Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:35, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Be consistent in whether or not you provide publisher locations
  • I want to have them present if possible. Will sort and alert. AFAICT I got 'em all added now to all the books. Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:22, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN 7: formatting
  • Use a consistent date format
  • Check for minor inconsistencies like doubled periods
  • Ranges need endashes, and be consistent about whether they're shortened or not

Images are all good from a copyright perspective, and a lot of them are great pictures. File:American white ibis2.jpg would benefit from Template:Information, if I'm being picky. Also, I've requested that the watermark is removed from File:Eudocimus albus -USA -eating a fish-8.jpg. However, neither of these issues should hold up the FAC. J Milburn (talk) 01:24, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Whoops, I left a watermark in an image; however, someone has removed it now. Snowman (talk) 20:52, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:American white ibis2.jpg does not have any location information. The photographer would most probably be able to provide missing information. Could these be juvenile Scarlet Ibises or hybrids? I would be inclined not to show this image in the article, because of its inadequate image documentation. Snowman (talk) 20:52, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • on the commons page is a category of Cedar Point, North Carolina, which indicates it'd be exclusively White Ibis territory. The original uploader is still active on dutch wikipedia and I can clarify with him. Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:12, 25 December 2011 (UTC) here[reply]
  • I have traced the edit where the category was added on Commons (it is a red link category), but I have no idea how the editor knew what location to write in. Snowman (talk) 14:55, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Further the birds in "File:American white ibis2.jpg" do look like adult birds, so I think the caption, which says they are immature, is wrong. I think this image should be removed from the article owing problems with the image's documentation Snowman (talk) 17:17, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • No answer yet. I have removed it. It is not as if we are lacking in ibis pictures and each picture should add something to the article Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:57, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Possible omission: "Field Guide to Birds of North America" says that there are feral or introduced Scarlet Ibises that hybridise with White Ibises in Florida. Snowman (talk) 21:05, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • found a good secondary source on this, which also has a whole lot of taxonomic detail, now added Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:10, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Breeding age and longevity in "Description section" are not description and do not belong there. Snowman (talk) 21:33, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I aways have trouble with this - I have moved the text to "breeding" which I've renamed "breeding and lifespan". I just came over another fact on the age of turnover of colonies which I can add. My dilemma now is whereabouts in the section the segment of text sits best. I have stuck it at the end for the time being and scanned over the rest of the section, and can't see a place to put it where it doesn't disrupt the flow at first glance. But it might be able to be shuffled in somehow earlier. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:36, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I do not how the subsection on "Parasites" should be part of the section on "Behaviour". Snowman (talk) 11:12, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • some articles we've renamed the parent section "Biology and behaviour" to encompass the material. I see it as sitting next to "feeding as both are about where the ibis sits in the food chain/web. Would you agree on the renaming of the parent section or do you have another idea? Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:02, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • There was some discussion in detail about this on the White Stork, so I am surprised to see this problem recur. There is no need to re-invent the wheel. I would move all the text on parasites to a level 2 heading called "Parasites", similar to the White Stork article. Snowman (talk) 14:48, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have changed it to a level 2 heading, so the heading is in a logical position now. Snowman (talk) 15:25, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "... often in long loose lines or 'V' formations". This could be energy economy during long flying journeys, and the article only hints at possible long flights in the fall when they move inland. It could also mean energy economy during short flights (similar to geese and ducks flying a few miles to a nearby lake or pond). Does "often" mean once a year during the fall or is flying in V formation a daily occurrence, when flying between feeding grounds or between roosting and feeding grounds. More on V flying formations is needed. Snowman (talk) 11:42, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • the main focus of the article was on the increasing frequency of juvenile ibises flying in formation, with rates going up from 17 to over 80% over the season, while over 80% of adult flocks observed in flight flew in formation over the season. The observers believed all flights were of greater than 2 km duration. The article mentions increased aerodynamic benefits but does not go into any detail on this. Have rejigged to give an idea of numbers. Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:21, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • A video on Arkive appears to show adults in the breeding season with a blackish colour on the distal half of their beaks, so colour changes of the beak is something worth double checking. Snowman (talk) 15:06, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • it is already mentioned in the fifth sentence of the description section, but there is some discussion here and there about the extent of the blackening. I will double check tomorrow but it is very late here and I need to get to sleep now. Casliber (talk · contribs) 15:20, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see. The all-pink beak is presumably only short lasting. Snowman (talk) 15:28, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support FA status; nevertheless, it is entirely possible that reviewers will be able to suggest further improvements, which I think will be mostly minor issues. I have tried to be objective; however, I have edited the article and other bird articles and so I have a potential conflict of interest. Snowman (talk) 15:44, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. Here's some grammar/prose/linking nitpicks from a quicky readthrough. More later. Sasata (talk) 18:19, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support I think the article meets FAC criteria. Cas, I checked many other bird FACs, and only a small proportion of them (guessing about 15–20%) have the genus authority included in taxobox for species articles, so if it's a new wp:BIRD convention (tbh, I don't understand why it would be), it should probably be made consistent across the board. Sasata (talk) 16:58, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • suggested lead links: Gulf Coast of the United States, plumage, Atlantic Coast, breeding period, foraging, Reproductive success, extra-pair copulation, nesting; unlink North America
  • "middle-sized" sounds odd to me compared to the usual medium-sized
  • "... affects the hormone levels of American White Ibis, affecting ..." -> tweak to remove repetition
  • why is the genus authority given in the taxobox?
  • link Louisiana, subspecies, hybrids, introduced, enzyme, pigment
  • "have also considered the two to be a single species" -> "also consider" unless they've since changed their opinion about this (similar change in tense throughout paragraph needed if you agree)
  • I tweaked the tense so that two are present and two are perfect tense (the actions they've done which are still valid - which is how one uses perfect tense) Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:39, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • link fledge, wetland, breeding colony, Alabama, mangrove (I see it's linked later), mudflat, estuarine
  • 800 square km -> convert
  • "61% of all nesting starts" shouldn't start a sentence with a number
active tense fixed problem Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:29, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • predation should be linked earlier (and is currently linked twice in the same paragraph)
  • what's a willow pond?
  • willows commonly grow in water, so just bodies of water where willows are growing I think....nothing is coming up on google search Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:19, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • link Prey switching
  • "Interestingly, this travel results in the wholesale transport of nutrients across the landscape by the colony, in a successful breeding year the colony at Pumpkinseed Island was estimated to have contributed a third as much phosphorus to the neighboring estuary as other environmental processes." -> Interestingly is not NPOV; I think the second comma should be a semicolon or period; link phosphorus
  • unlink summer
  • "In this last the ibis swings its wide open bill widely in open water." clunky
  • I linked the sentences to smooth it...unless you think the new sentence is too long... Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:23, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It was initially known as Ibis before" Not clear to what the "it" refers
  • Cas, do you have access to Birds of North America online? I did a content review by comparing the wiki article with this source, and there's a few areas that come up short:
  • vocalizations
  • fossil history
  • added - I figured out finally where to put it. Given it's pretty modern, under distribution and habitat. Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:07, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • historical changes in distribution
  • got most of this - but added an overarching sentence and some bits and pieces. Tricky to know how much detail to go into here. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:42, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • specific details on flight behavior
  • added -I thought the energy expenditure veered into really specialised/esoteric territory... Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:27, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • agonistic behavior
  • added. Some material on the page was quite speculative when one reads the sources so is tricky to add, and other refers to the scarlet ibis. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:39, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • mortality and disease
  • more detailed info on population and demographics
  • a little added, though material from here is sprinkled throughout the article Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:54, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • management/conservation
  • I think the article content could be improved (i.e. criteria 1b and 1c) if you could have a look at this resource yourself and expand the bits you thought were appropriate. Please let me know if you can't get access, maybe I can send you screenshots or something. Sasata (talk) 15:53, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • dang, that was a silly miss on the vocalising, and I can fix that readily today. The fossil history is tricky and I have added a segment to the parent article Eudocimus and meant to nose around a bit more but was musing on where it should go in the species article. If you mean the Cornell University subpages I think I can see all of them. Will go through and see what I can access. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:23, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's a sample species (thankfully) so can access it fine. Am going through it now Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:40, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for making those additions! Now, some more nits:
  • "Drought conditions elsewhere in the United States meaning over 400,000 American White Ibis were breeding there in the 1930s." Something wrong with this sentence
  • "A field study late in the Florida nesting season revealed adult American White Ibis spent 10.25 hours looking for food, 0.75 hours flying, 13 hours resting, roosting, and attending to their nests." can we append "in an average day" or something?
  • journal article titles need to be consistent in usage of either title or sentence case
  • page range format not yet consistent (131–133 vs. 656–58), and I saw at least 1 hyphen where a dash should be (531-32) Sasata (talk) 20:12, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • dang, the hyphen-dash converter misses refs in the cite doi template. Anyway caught 'em now Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:00, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Please ping my talk, the usual drill. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:19, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • @Sandy, who, me or Sasata? Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:38, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • I think she meant for me to ping her when I'm done my review (I'll do so now). Sasata (talk) 16:58, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from PumpkinSky...

My first venture into FAC, excuse me if I misunderstand some rules or standards.
  • Lead: "It occurs from the mid-Atlantic and Gulf Coast"...is "occur" the best word for an animal? This phrasing strikes me as odd. Perhaps something using "is found", "range", or "lives" might be better.
  • Shouldn't ref 8 & 10 have page numbers since it's a book? Isn't that the norm?
  • ref 10 does (p.56) at the end, ref 8 is from a great book I found on google books but it has no page numbers (!!). I think it is the kindle version. Hence I have listed the chapter ("American White Ibis"). Not sure what to do otherwise. Casliber (talk · contribs) 07:55, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 2 is missing a retrieve date. Aren't web refs supposed to have retrieve dates? Some of your web refs do, some don't. What about books that have URLs such as a googlebooks link (refs 7 and 3 for example)?
  • my understanding is the date isn't needed for journal articles and books, only web-only refs. I added a couple so I think all web-only refs have an accessdate now Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:02, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
AH, web-only refs require it. I've been putting them in for all web refs, including googlebooks. For me, I'll keep doing so, doens't hurt anything.PumpkinSky talk 11:37, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is there a big gap between the URL and period in refs 47 and 48?
  • I'm getting the .pdf symbol between the url and period and no space... Casliber (talk · contribs) 07:56, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I see them now. Must have been a glitch. Last night I was having trouble seeing wiki images.
Prose and images seem good to me.
PumpkinSky talk 02:18, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support now. Glad to see you took a break from all your Aussie birds to get a Yank bird to FA! PumpkinSky talk 11:37, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thx :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:02, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So sorry, but I have no idea what this sentence in the lead is saying:

  • The breeding season range runs along the Gulf and Atlantic Coast, and the coasts of Mexico and Central America.

I thought a breeding season was time, not place. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:44, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I mean the range during the breeding season (so using "breeding season" as adjectival qualifier to "range" - can abbreviate to "breeding range") Casliber (talk · contribs)
  • Not your problem, but it's Los Llanos, not Llanos-- our redirect, set up in 2004, is wrong, but I don't know how to move over redirect. Llanos is a common noun meaning plains-- Los Llanos is a place in Venezuela, proper noun. Llanos should be a dab page, pointing to Los Llanos (Chile), Los Llanos (Venezuela) and describing Llanos as a Spanish word meaning "plains". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:55, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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