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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Allah jang Palsoe/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 13:39, 30 January 2016 [1].

Allah jang Palsoe edit

Nominator(s):  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 14:26, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Kwee Tek Hoay's first published stage drama, a morality play written to be performed at charity operas ("opera derma") and inspired by the style of Ibsen. The bulk of the article was written several years ago, but I never took it to FAC because I'd yet to consult the first edition for possible information. Now that that's done, I've updated the article and brought it here for your consideration. My gratitude to SchroCat and Wehwalt, who gave great input during the peer review.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 14:26, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:Henrik_Ibsen_by_Gustav_Borgen_NFB-19778_restored.jpg needs a US PD tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:27, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support I didn't find anything much at the peer review, other than excellent work.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:10, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Source review All are constantly cited and of encyclopedic quality, except:

The two multiple sources (12 and 26) lack periods at their end which all other cites have.
Do we really treat differently Roman numerals couched in capital letters (Kwee 1919) vs. lower case?
  • In the original sources, Damono's page numbers are formatted lower case whereas Kwee's are formatted as capital letters. I've standardized, however. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 13:33, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The Jakarta Post story has an accessdate prior to the archiving date.
  • That's the date the story was published. That's the only instance of "Cite News" in the article which does not have an author, hence why the format is different. It's automatic with the template. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 13:33, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The intalicisation in the Sutedja-Liem source, regarding the word or term Njai could use clarification. If Njai is a non-English word, then it should be translated, if it is a name, then I don't see why you are setting it off in the translation.
  • Switched with Kwee, 1980, which supports the information and does not have such a word in the title (long story short, njai in the context of the title is not readily translatable) — Chris Woodrich (talk) 13:43, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That's it.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:35, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for the source review.

Comments from Brianboulton edit

When I saw the word "opera" in the blurb, I thought "Aha!"... Oh well, I read it anyway. Outside my usual orbit, but nonetheless fascinating and instructive. I have a few issues, mainly minor:

  • Apologies. The term "Opera" in the Indies was essentially short hand for "stage play" or "troupe" (viz. Orion Opera, Dhalia Opera; probably worth writing a paper in RL if I can get the sources)
  • I'm not sure about "Analysis of the play has also shown a Chinese nationalist identity..." – "national" rather than "nationalist", which seems overtly political. Also, perhaps consider "influence" rather than "identity"
  • Went with "Chinese national identity"
  • "the published stageplay was a loss". What exactly does this mean?
  • Wehwalt brought that up as well at PR. I'd thought that its position right after "commercial success" would make the implication clear, but switched with "sold poorly" now
  • By 1930 the play, though deemed a difficult one to stage, was performed by various ethnic Chinese troupes to popular acclaim;" For "was" read "had been". Also, I suggest you replace the semicolon with a full stop, and start a new sentence at "It also inspired..."
  • "editor-in-chief" is a hyphenated term
  • The word "bursary" seems the wrong term here. A bursary is a grant used to finance a course of study; what we have here sounds more like a bribe. Suggest replace "heavily influenced by a monthly bursary of" with "in return for a payment of".
  • Switched with "payment"
  • "During the following week the family sell their belongings..." What family? If you mean Kioe Gie, he has a wife, but there's been no mention of a family.
  • Indeed. Oxford Dictionaries definition 1.1 includes this possibility in its definition. Changed to Kioe Gie and his wife, however, as it is a new paragraph. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:16, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...because the widow has the same surname..." The point here is not clear.
  • Hence the footnote. Kwee doesn't explicitly say it (expecting his audiences would get the implication) and so it's not stated in the running text, but for the ethnic Chinese of the time marrying a woman with the same surname would be incest. We don't seem to have an article on incest in Chinese culture, sadly. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:16, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "comes and warns him" – delete "comes and"
  • Who is Lauw Nio, mentioned at the end of the Plot section? Oddly, he's not in the list of characters.
  • When/where did Kwee Tek Hoay apologise for the quality of the stage play?
  • "After condemning contemporary playwrights who merely wrote down existing stories..." Ironically, this is what Kwee Tek Hoay seems to have done!
  • With some adaptations, but yes. Not unusual for him (Marsiti's ghost turns up in Boenga Roos dari Tjikembang, despite Kwee being a self-avowed realist, for instance) — Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:29, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Other readings have been more diverse" – unnecessary editorial comment?
  • Hmm... I'll have to think of another segue. We spend two paragraph talking about money, then go to Chinese national identities etc. It would be too abrupt (IMHO) without anything to signal transition. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:16, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • How about "Allah jang Palsoe also contains themes unrelated to money"?
  • "pipe-link "sinologist"
  • "leaving his comfortable job rather than promote become an apologist for..." – delete either "promote" or "become an apologist for".
  • "Release" is not the right word for a stage play, so consider changing the heading to, perhaps "Performance and reception". Is there really no knowledge of either the date or location of the premiere, and no way of finding out these details? Hard to believe, but if that is the case, it should be clearly stated in the text.
  • Changed to "Performance and reception", but with reservations (as follows) I will double check the sources I have, but I can say right now that none of the sources explicitly say "the date of the premiere is lost to time". I also asked a friend with a focus on Chinese opera in the Indies (which was also popular around this time) if he has any information; sadly, he didn't. I suspect, based on the below quote, that the play was first published as a script, and only staged sometime later, by someone else; none of the sources thus far say that Kwee actually directed any performances, nor do they mention performance aspects. Sources treat Allah jang Palsoe predominantly as printed media (Sidharta terms it a "naskah drama" ("stage script"), for instance, and see Kwee's letter quoted below) — Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:25, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I won't press this point, only to say that the statement "Allah jang Palsoe was well received, though initially criticised for emphasising everyday clothing over interesting costumes" appears to relate to performance rather than to a published text (the "interesting costumes" bit is surely a visual criticism). But if the sources aren't there, we can't invent them. Brianboulton (talk) 15:56, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "tens of times" is not an English idiomatic expression. We say "dozens of times" or "scores of times" or "hundreds of times", but not "tens". If, however, this is the precise wording in the poster, the wording should be enclosed in quotes.
  • Indeed. In quotes now (twenty, after all, would be "tens" of times but not "dozens", and without anything more concrete we can't assume the latter is correct) — Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:16, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Another of Kwee Tek Hoay's works, Korbannja Kong-Ek, was inspired by a viewer, who wrote him a letter asking for a comforting and educational play." This information has no relevance in this article.
  • Respectfully disagree. Kwee writes (translated) "When Allah jang Palsoe was published [Ed: not staged, interestingly], I received many letters about that book [Ed: again, treating it as a publication only] .... One of my friends, a well-known Chinese journalist who was in Europe at the time, wrote me as follows: "I've already carefully read Allah jang Palsoe and hope that you will continue to writer stage plays. ... You have much talent for fully and broadly [luas] depicting characters, so it would be a shame if you did not write a spirit-raising play full of healthy ideas and strong morals like Allah jang Palsoe". Kwee goes on to write that this is what he did with Korbannja Kong-Ek. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:16, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Having raised this point, I'm happy to defer to your judgement. Brianboulton (talk) 15:56, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Looking forward to your responses. Brianboulton (talk) 20:30, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support: I'm happy that my concerns have been addressed. This is a worthy (and pleasingly unusual) candidate for promotion. Brianboulton (talk) 15:56, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you for your review and support! The article looks much nicer now. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 23:20, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support -- this, like all your other Indonesian-based articles, is one of much interest. I do have one minor nitpick, however:

  • There is a slight inconsistent use of the definite article: "Allah jang Palsoe was the first stage play by journalist Kwee Tek Hoay." Then we say: "According to the historian Nio Joe Lan, Allah jang Palsoe..." -- I'll let you decide which version to use, although I've just noticed you do use the latter thereafter. CassiantoTalk 09:35, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from JM
  • "Analysis of the play has also shown a Chinese national identity and depiction of negative traits in women." This doesn't read very well- what has the identity, and what depicts the traits? [A PS from after I've read the rest of the article- I originally understood this as claiming that the play depicted women in a negative way, while, instead, the claim seems to be that a particular character is a woman who is unvirtuous. Obviously, these are different things.]
  • Nixed altogether, as it appears every wording has been problematic. Re: Particular character: "she finds Houw Nio to be a depiction of how a woman should not act: selfish and addicted to gambling." (i.e. Houw Nio is held by Sidharta to represent all things a woman shouldn't be). — Chris Woodrich (talk) 23:42, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • What is stamboel? Is that not a bit technical to be in the lead unexplained?
  • Reworked. Less specific, but main point remains the same. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 23:42, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "to leave for a competitor" A competitor of whom? His brother or his current boss? I assumed the latter, but his brother's response suggests the former?
  • The latter. Kioe Gie is asking Kioe Lie to remain ethical in his business: someone helps you rise from poverty, it's best to not simply abandon him and take his customers with you because you get a better offer. Reworded.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 23:42, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a betrayal to ethnic Chinese" to the ethnic Chinese?
  • "Passing through Cicuruk, Kioe Lie's car breaks down and, while the chauffeur attempts to fix it, he takes shelter in a nearby home." The "he" is ambiguous; how about "Passing through Cicuruk, the car breaks down and, while the chauffeur attempts to fix it, Kioe Lie takes shelter in a nearby home."
  • Perhaps columns would make the character list look a little neater?
  • "raised in Chinese culture" I defer to you, but this looks grammatically rather odd to me.
  • yet "in a Chinese cultural context" (as opposed to, say, Sundanese culture, which was common for peranakan children raised by their [indigene] mothers) would be a bit too verbose.
  • "considering the story to flow well" I'm not super keen on this either; how about "feeling that the story flows well".
  • Is stamboel worth a redlink? Either way, we're going to need some context, I think
  • Definitely worth a redlink; there are entire books on the subject. Will add a footnote. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 23:42, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Footnote added. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:03, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "of such a technique" What do you mean by this? That they're unscripted, that they used fantastic settings or both?
  • "He writes that such is life even in the best of times" It's not clear to me what you mean by this
  • "do as Tan Kioe Gie, not as Tan Kioe Lie" Is this overly elliptical? How about "act as Tan Kioe Gie does, not as Tan Kioe Lie does"?
  • "issues of a Chinese national identity" Issues with a national identity? How about "issues relating to Chinese national identity"?
  • "Sumardjo writes that, though Allah jang Palsoe was published seven years before the Rustam Effendi's Bebasari (generally considered the first canonic Indonesian stage drama), Kwee Tek Hoay's writing shows all the hallmarks of a literary work" I'm not clear what showing all the hallmarks of a literary work has to do with being published before Bebasari?
  • Sumardjo's comment implies that, if the Indonesian canon were determined by the literariness of a work in question (rather than the ethnic origin of the author or register used... there's a long story there) Allah jang Palsoe would quite likely be in the canon. He doesn't come out and say it, however. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 23:42, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Mainteater (id)" I'm not too fussed about this, but I know that there has been some recent discussion about the appropriateness of this template in FAs.
  • "heavily edited to last an hour" It's difficult to contextualise this without knowing how long it would normally be.
  • No sources say how long a performance would usually be, so reworked (for context: the play proper is north of 80 pages in the 1919 edition, and very dialogue heavy). — Chris Woodrich (talk) 23:42, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why do you cite "Lontar Foundation 2006, p. 95." to the book as a whole rather than the particular chapter/entry?
  • I can cite the chapter as well, if need be, but here I figured that to cite that something was included in a book one must cite the book itself, rather than a chapter in the book. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 23:42, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • You seem to miss the translations of chapter titles in a few cases in your references?
  • Done. Both were deliberate (albeit inconsistent): the titles were of literary works already mentioned in-text. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 23:42, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This strikes me as a well-researched, well-written and carefully structured article. Please double-check my edits. Josh Milburn (talk) 22:56, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hi Josh, what do you think about the edits I've made? — Chris Woodrich (talk) 01:19, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • Sorry- I have seen this, and will make some time for another look through soon. Josh Milburn (talk) 08:19, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • Alright, sure thing. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 14:05, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
        • Support. This strikes me as a very good article. As one closing thought, perhaps you could be clearer that "Kwee Tek Hoay wrote that he had drawn inspiration from the realist Norwegian playwright Henrik Ibsen" refers to the later work, rather than the subject of the article. Josh Milburn (talk) 10:29, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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