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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Al-Walid I/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Hog Farm via FACBot (talk) 6 May 2023 [1].

Al-Walid I edit

Nominator(s): Al Ameer (talk) 03:52, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the sixth Umayyad caliph, al-Walid I, whose decade-long reign represented the zenith of Umayyad power and prosperity, though his direct role in its successes is unclear. His reign is often deemed by historians to be the fruit of his father and predecessor, Abd al-Malik's, long, hard work. Started editing this article in Feb 2019, it passed GAN in July of that year, and I have been working on it periodically since. I believe it is finally ready for FA consideration. Al Ameer (talk) 03:52, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review edit

  • Some images are missing alt text
  • File:Gold_dinar_of_al-Walid_707-708_CE.jpg is missing a US tag for the coin
  • File:Coin_minted_during_the_reign_of_al-Walid_I_ibn_'Abd_al-Malik_in_Istakhr.jpg is missing tagging for the original work.
  • Ditto File:Syria,_Damascus,_The_Umayyad_Mosque.jpg
  • I left a note with the author/uploader and will wait a few days or so for their response. If not, I will seek a replacement image. Al Ameer (talk) 03:21, 5 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • A new and improved map is being tackled by Amitchell125 which should hopefully comply with this guideline. Al Ameer (talk) 03:21, 5 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Ian Rose: With regard to File:Syria,_Damascus,_The_Umayyad_Mosque.jpg, I believe the licensing should be satisfactory per the three-way discussion between Nikkimaria, the author/uploader Argenberg and myself at the uploader's talk page even though there was no definitive 'resolution'. As for the map, Amitchell125 has produced the alternative File:The Empire of the Abbasid Caliphte to 945 1.4.svg but it is still pending some adjustments before we could add it to the article (Nikki's input is also welcome here). Until then, I see no problem removing the existing map to ensure that the article meets the FAC criteria for images. Al Ameer (talk) 20:46, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unfortunately the no-resolution situation will also impact passing. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:50, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by Borsoka edit

  • Indicate the years when Marwan I reigned.
  • ...he gradually restored the dynasty's rule in Syria and Egypt Could the sentence be more specific instead of using "gradually" (for i{xtnstance, "by the end of his reign" or "by [year]/by around [year]")?
  • ...with its eastern dependencies... Consider specifying the territories or deleting the uninformative text.
  • Revised––basically the Iranian regions. Al Ameer (talk) 03:44, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we know why he abandoned speaking the classical Arabic?
  • I have not found any more elaboration on this, including why he abandoned the 'classical' Arabic, than what is in the article currently. Al Ameer (talk) 19:16, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unlike his father, al-Walid heavily depended on al-Hajjaj... vs Al-Hajjaj's prominence was such that he is discussed more frequently in the medieval Muslim sources than al-Walid or Abd al-Malik... Contradiction?
  • Not necessarily, but I could see what you mean. Decided to scrap the second sentence. Part of it is more pertinent to the article about al-Hajjaj and the rest is somewhat redundant with the Assessment section. Al Ameer (talk) 03:44, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • ...a desire to install one of his own loyalists, his katib (scribe), Qurra ibn Sharik of the Banu Abs Perhpas "to install his loyal katib (scribe), Qurra ibn Sharik of the Banu Abs"?
  • ...the mistreatment of Medina's pious residents by Abd al-Malik's appointed governor to the Hejaz, Hisham ibn Isma'il al-Makhzumi Only the pious residents were mistreated? If yes, how or why?
  • Will look into this further and elaborate. From memory, he persecuted pious men like Sa'id ibn al-Musayyib who criticized the Umayyad caliphs, etc.
  • "The Qaysi" or "the Qays"?
  • Who are Blankinship and Hawting?
  • Indicate the years when Yazid III, Yazdegerd III, al-Walid II, Ibrahim reigned. Borsoka (talk) 16:42, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Added. Thanks for the review so far. Will address the two remaining points in short order. Please let me know if any other suggestions. Al Ameer (talk) 03:44, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why al-Walid instead of Al-Walid at the beginning of the first sentence of the lead?
  • This change was introduced by Apaugasma with the reasoning that the introductory sentence is not a full sentence, hence the Arabic article should be lowercased per MoS Arabic. While I am not sure I agree, I want to give Apaugasma the opportunity to weigh in. Al Ameer (talk) 03:29, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • I was being a bit overenthusiastic there. While al- should only be capitalized at the beginning of a full sentence (so not in titles or wherever there is not a full sentence with subject and verb), this of course is a full sentence and we'd probably better be consistent with this.
    Arabists usually go out of their way to not start a sentence with al- because upper case Al- looks jarring, and the rule of 'only at the start of a full sentence' is actually more a corollary of 'avoid wherever possible'. With all the bold and the introductory parentheticals in the lead sentence one might read the al- here rather as part of a lemma than as part of an actual sentence, which might justify the use of lower case. But as I said, it's probably better to be consistent, so I went ahead and changed it. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 13:27, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for the explanation Apaugasma and restoring the previous version in the meantime. It might be something to raise at MoS Arabic as well (unless you have already and I missed it). Al Ameer (talk) 16:53, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • WP:MOSAR currently has "Al-" and its variants (ash-, ad-, ar-, etc.) are always written in lower case, also when forming part of proper nouns, except when beginning a sentence. I think that's a good rule to just follow consistently, and I was wrong to try and make an exception to it, even though some RS might do precisely that (see for example [2], where the title (including the lower case al-) is 'reused' as the first word of the lead, even though the convention in EI2 is to make the opening line only render the subject without any predicate, so it's not actually a full sentence). On WP, it's more important to have something consistent and simple to follow for everyone.
    The guideline is tucked away a bit and not formulated in the clearest way, but then the Arabic MoS in general still needs a lot of work. Existing WP practices need to be more fully described, and some of these practices also need to be streamlined better with common practice in RS. All of that then needs to be explained in simpler and clearer instructions. There's a lot to do there, but I think that there are just not enough editors interested in this. In part we also suffer from a lack of editors who are properly familiar with RS in the field of Arabic and Islamic studies, so in a way I'm actually glad that editors with little expertise stay away from creating a strict MoS. It would easily end up enforcing all kinds of things not common in RS at all or downright contrary to common practice in RS. When we get more editors with experience in the field, things will naturally evolve from there. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 22:20, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Introduce Musa ibn Nusayr as al-Walid's governor in North Africa in the lead.
  • The al-Aqsa is attributed to his father by some sources, according to the main text.
  • Need to and will amend the main text (and then lead) to elaborate on this. Even those scholars who attribute the commencement of the mosque’s construction to Abd al-Malik credit al-Walid for completing it. Al Ameer (talk) 03:29, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I modified/expanded on this now; let me know if you think this portion of the lead still needs to be amended. Al Ameer (talk) 19:16, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • When did his reign end? The infobox says that 25 January or 11 March although he is said to have died on 23 February.
  • Fixed, might add a footnote about different authorities' dating of his death. Al Ameer (talk) 03:29, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, at least a footnote is necessery if the date of his death is uncertain. Borsoka (talk) 16:58, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Appears I had a footnote about alternative death dates; I modified it and moved it to the infobox; let me know if better here or in the first sentence of the lead instead.
  • I would put the footnote in the main text. I understand, only a primary source verifies the alternative dates of death. Borsoka (talk) 02:37, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done, and yes. Since this is a footnote which only mentions that another 'early' source cites slightly different dates for his death, I figure this is OK—but if unnecessary, I have no issue scrapping it. Al Ameer (talk) 03:29, 1 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The infobox says that he was buried in Bab al-Saghir, while the main text mentions an other possible place of burial as well.
  • Wallada bint al-Abbas ibn al-Jaz (main text) or Wallāda bint al-ʿAbbās ibn al-Jazʾ al-ʿAbsīyya (infobox)? Borsoka (talk) 03:38, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to revert my two minor edits if you disagree them. Borsoka (talk) 16:58, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks Borsoka. I reverted one of them, the separation of 'Patronage of great mosques' from 'Public works and social welfare' because these two (public works and congregational mosque patronage) are closely linked, the mosque-building being an especially notable part of the larger program of caliphal-driven public works. Al Ameer (talk) 19:16, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "See also: Qays–Yaman rivalry" should be moved to section "Balancing tribal factions" from section "Provincial affairs".
  • ...which set "a dangerous precedent with de-stabilizing consequences in the future"... Could it be explained, perhaps with examples, in a footnote? Borsoka (talk) 17:00, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I clarified per the source that this was unprecedented as far as Medina's governors were concerned and have provided examples in a footnote, per your suggestion. Al Ameer (talk) 19:16, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would delete "with de-stabilizing consequences" because it is not explained in the footnote.
  • I understand the claim that Yazid III's mother was the daughter of a Sasanian prince is verified only by a primary source.
  • I added secondary sources to back this—the claim, in any case, is traced back to al-Tabari. Another old source, al-Ya'qubi gives a slightly different name, Shafarand instead of Shah-i-Afrid and a different grandfather; but the secondary sources prefer Tabari's version. Al Ameer (talk) 03:29, 1 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I understand the sentence about his summer 696 campaign is verified only by a primary source.
  • Somewhat. I specified in the citation that this information is from a footnote so the author in this case would be the editor Everett Rowson rather than Tabari. The footnote discusses what other primary sources mention about al-Walid's summer raids in 77 AH (696) and 78 AH (697). Al Ameer (talk) 03:29, 1 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Working on it—made a request at the Graphics Lab and might take a stab at it myself if it drags. Al Ameer (talk) 03:29, 1 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

All but one of my concerns were addressed and the map is not worse than maps placed in many other FAs so I support the article's promotion. Thank you for this interesting and comprehensive article. Borsoka (talk) 06:19, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Borsoka: Thank you for taking the time to review and help improve the article. Your support is appreciated :) Al Ameer (talk) 03:00, 5 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Funk edit

  • Thanks Funk, looking forward to it. Al Ameer (talk) 03:33, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The German map stands out as a bit of an oddity, due to the language and because it cuts out part of the Maghreb. Are there any English, less cropped alternatives?
  • To my knowledge, no and we sorely need such a new map showing the expansion phases as this one does, but in English and perhaps with a little less detail. This is not a satisfactory answer, but I am not sure how soon such a map can be created. Will bring it up to the Lab tomorrow or so to see if someone will take it up. Al Ameer (talk) 03:33, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link ethnic groups like Arabs, Berbers, etc.?
  • "and replacing Greek and Persian" Link these languages?
  • "These policies effected the gradual transition of Arabic as the sole official language of the state" I wonder if Arabization should be linked anywhere in this article?
  • "Umar had Hisham publicly humiliated" Do we know how?
  • All I know is that he had him "stand before the people", without much elaboration, and this was considered a public humiliation. It is also noted that some of the pious folks whom he abused did not use the opportunity to retaliate against him. Al Ameer (talk) 16:38, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and the historian Khalid Yahya Blankinship notes that the army of Damascus, numbering some 45,000 soldiers, were taxed a quarter of their salaries for nine years to pay for its construction." If this is a fact, and not an opinion/interpretation, why does it have to be attributed to a particular historian?
  • "Aphrodito Papryi" Papyri?
  • Any other interesting buildings he sponsored or similar that can be shown in the latter part of the article, which looks a bit empty?
  • I had pictures of the Aqsa Mosque and the Mosque of Medina, but since these both look totally different than al-Walid's constructions (unlike the Damascus mosque), I just opted to remove them. Currently looking for an image of the unfinished Umayyad palace/administrative structure built on the southern wall of the Temple Mount. These are attributed to al-Walid and have essentially remained unchanged since. Al Ameer (talk) 16:38, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - looks good, and the Temple Mount structure sounds interesting, perhaps there's something unidentified on Commons or Flickr, I'd be happy to help in the search if I can get pointers as to what to look for. FunkMonk (talk) 16:51, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think the first two seem to have the best focus on the structures in question? And perhaps the first one the most? FunkMonk (talk) 14:28, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Added now. Thanks for the suggestion. Al Ameer (talk) 16:16, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Cplakidas edit

Reserving a spot here. Constantine ✍ 06:09, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • upon the viceroy's direction 'recommendation', perhaps? Al-Hajjaj was powerful, but Walid still formally ruled.
  • renewal of the Muslim conquests link to early Muslim conquests here rather than further down? The article does not deal with the earliest conquests, but until the end of the Umayyad period.
  • the caliphate's domestic front possibly unclear what is meant here. What front?
  • Let me know if the revised language works. Al Ameer (talk) 17:22, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • During the second half of his reign 'al-Walid's reign' for clarity
  • In the 'Eastern frontiers' section it might be useful to add that leaving the local rulers in power would eventually lead to a near collapse of Umayyad power in the next decades.
  • In the 'Byzantine front' section, it might be worthwhile to note that the frontier achieved under al-Walid solidified as the Arab–Byzantine frontier until the turn of the 9th/10th century, when the Byzantine reconquest began.
  • Had trouble locating a source that supports this. Can you provide one? Al Ameer (talk) 17:22, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • For the Umayyad period specifically, Blankinship 1994 pp. 117-119, otherwise Kennedy 2004 p. 275, Whittow, The Making of Byzantium, 600-1025, pp. 212–213 might be of help. Constantine ✍ 14:16, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks; my only concern is whether or not the frontier was achieved under al-Walid specifically. I was not able to find support for that in these sources either. Please let me know if I missed something. Al Ameer (talk) 18:19, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Al Ameer son: Well the conquest of Cilicia was under al-Walid, and that was the end of Arab expansion. I couldn't find it in so many words, but we are allowed to make educated inferences when the sources speak of the "early 8th century". But it is not terribly important if it doesn't get into the article either. Constantine ✍ 19:09, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • In 709, al-Walid dismissed Abd Allah ... Qurra ibn Sharik of the Banu Abs is too long, suggest splitting up.
  • central religious importance of Mecca and Medina add why this is (e.g. 'as the birthplace of Islam' or 'as the holy cities of Islam', since you mention them as such later on); many people will not know what you refer to.
  • The latter was the maternal grandfather who is 'the latter'?
  • wary of the Hejaz once again developing into a center of anti-Umayyad activity I assume Ibn al-Zubayr's revolt is meant? I would recommend explicitly mentioning it here again.
  • However, Wellhausen doubts that al-Walid preferred one faction over the other add after Wellhausen's observations that this balancing act would not be maintained by his successors, contributing to the downfall of the Umayyad dynasty.
  • Aphrodito Papryi link Aphrodito, and a typo here ('Papyri')
  • Done (needs its own article eventually). Al Ameer (talk) 17:22, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • During the Third Muslim Civil War is it not more correct to say that this affair helped cause the civil war?
  • The publisher in Ahmed 2011 is incorrect, Prospographica et Geneaoligica (typo here) is the series of the book.

That's it for a first pass. An excellent article, really little to complain about. Constantine ✍ 08:53, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Cplakidas: Thanks for the great suggestions. Left a question for you regarding the Byzantine frontier. Other than that, let me know if anything else. Al Ameer (talk) 17:22, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Al Ameer son: Had another look, nothing that jumps out as missing or problematic. Added a suggestion above, but am ready to support as it is. Constantine ✍ 14:16, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Cplakidas: Not sure how this slipped from the radar. Thank you for the review, recommendations, and support. Al Ameer (talk) 18:19, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - Pass edit

  • McMillan 2011 : page numbers/ranges needed
  • The only version I have access to is the ebook which does not include page numbers, unfortunately. Al Ameer (talk) 04:06, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Powers, Stephan, ed. (1989) : Correct name is Powers, David S. (i.e. Stephen is middle name, not first)
  • The Restoration Project of the Masjid al-Aqsa by Mïmar Kemalettın (1922–1926) --> ... (1922–26)
  • Although not specific to this article, I think we should standardize Hawting's name (Hawting, G. R vs. Hawting, Gerald R.) in templates
  • For this article at least, it is now consistent. Al Ameer (talk) 04:06, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Kennedy, Hugh and Kennedy, H. ;)
  • The Works of Ibn Wāḍiḥ al-Yaʿqūbī (Volume 3): Biesterfeldt and Günther are series editors (Islamic History and Civilization). This particular volume was edited by Gordon, Robinson, Everett, and Fishbein.
  • Yes; going to have to correct this one in a few more articles. Al Ameer (talk) 04:06, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Should Hillenbrand, 1994 be before Hillenbrand, 1999?
  • Do we need page ranges for George as well as Bacharach? Gog the Mild (talk) 17:34, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gordon et al. 2018, p. 1001, 1004. --> pp.
  • Gordon, Matthew S.; Robinson, Chase F.; Rowson, Everett K.; Fishbein, Michael (2018)--> ... (eds.) (2018). i.e last1 --> editor1-last etc.
  • In some cases you give all pub locs (e.g. Fowden, Garth (2004)-Berkeley and Los Angeles) and in some you give only the first (e.g. Elad, Amikam (1999)-Leiden from Leiden, Boston, Köln). There are other instances too
  • "The Babylonian Encounter and the Exilarchic House in the Light of Cairo Geniza Documents and the Parallel Arabic Sources". Drop "the", not part of the original title; Arabic --> Arab
  • Marsham, Andrew (2022): Editor names?
  • "Living Islamic History: Studies in Honour of Professor Carole Hillenbrand" Google Books link would be good (not a must, of course)
  • "The Fall of the Caliphate of Cordoba: Berbers and Arabs in Conflict": I think it is "Andalusis"
  • "Estudios onomástico-biográficos de Al-Andalus: V": I think you are using volume VI
  • Otros Linajes Omeyas en al-Andalus". In Marín, Manuela (ed.). Estudios onomástico-biográficos de Al-Andalus: V.
  • Sources are all high quality. AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 20:32, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "During his father's caliphate, al-Walid led the campaigns in 695, 696, 697 and 698.[7]" [7] says 696, 697, 698 and 699
  • "...enlisted more troops into Egypt's army...[38]" The source is not so certain of this meaning of reorganizing the diwan. I think you should stick to "reorganization" or at least add a qualifier to "enlisting more troops". AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 21:00, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think you've not added editors to Marsham, Andrew (2022). AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 21:13, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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