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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Abdollah Mirza Qajar/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 13 October 2022 [1].

Abdollah Mirza Qajar edit

Nominator(s): Amir Ghandi (talk) 19:17, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about... Abdollah Mirza, an Iranian prince of Qajar dynasty who was a poet and the governor of two provinces during his lifetime. I had nominated this before and I believe it was archived because it was so short, but there is barely any information on life to add. I have seen featured articles shorter than this so I don't think that's much of a problem. Thanks in advance for any reviewers. Amir Ghandi (talk) 19:17, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from AviationFreak edit

  • Just as a note, the article would probably benefit from another image or two. Even a relevant map or something similar would be nice, but I know these things can be difficult to find and source.
  • due to complaints and dissatisfaction - Isn't this a bit redundant? Suggest either using a different second noun or only using one.
Deleted dissatisfaction
  • Unclosed parentheses when listing the reign of Mohammad Shah Qajar
Why? I thought years should be placed in closed parentheses
Yes - I agree that the style here looks good, but you have two opening parentheses and only one closing parenthesis - ...(r. (1834-1848)... AviationFreak💬 22:39, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Done
Amir Ghandi (talk) 23:29, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Done
  • Probably worth stating that Baba Khan was crowned after his predecessor's assassination
Added it
  • Perhaps clarify who "Behzadi" is, especially as the name is not mentioned earlier
  • Same for Ardakani
I think I'm gonna delete 'the according to' for these two.
Gotcha. I believe similar phrasing was used for other authors later in the article, so that should be reworded/removed as well (if it's not already). AviationFreak💬 22:39, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Added 'the modern historian' to those examples later in the article.
Amir Ghandi (talk) 23:15, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does rule of a particular province not also grant rule of cities within the province? I would recommend somehow textually differentiating Zanjan from the cities within.
The borders of a province were defined by the territory its ruler had. So, there wasn't a Zanjan province with today's borders. I added a cities in the sentence "rule the cities of Zanjan, Sojas, Sohrevard, Abhar, and Soltanieh."
  • If it's not broadly agreed-upon that he ruled over Khamseh province, it probably shouldn't be in the lede. Also doesn't appear to be as talked-about in the article as Zanjan.
Deleted it from the lead.
  • Because of his youth, Fath-Ali Shah appointed Mohammad Taqi Saheb Ali Abadi, his favorite poet, as Abdollah Mirza's regent. - It's certainly implied that we're talking about Abdollah Mirza's youth here, but maybe reword this bit? Also, link regent.
reworded it
  • Abdollah Mirza developed a taste in poetry because of his teachings. - In my first skim, I though "him" referred to Abdollah Mirza, but it looks like it refers to Ali Abadi.
Also reworded it.
  • Ali Abadi served as regent for Abdollah Mirza until 1819 when he returned to Tehran from his father's order. - Who returned to Tehran? What does it mean to return from his father's order? I think the use of pronouns in this section could be cleaned up a little. :)
Amended it.
  • The name of the mosque can be linked in the caption, along with maybe adding ", constructed during Abdollah Mirza's rule" or something similar
Done
Done
  • Naming should be consistent throughout an article - Should he be referred to as "Abdollah Mirza" (used until mention of 1810 valuables discovery) or simply "Abdollah"?
I'll go with Abdollah Mirza.
  • They discovered the tomb of Arghun Khan, Ilkhan of Ilkhanate and it was filled with gold and jewelry Abdollah Mirza brought the findings to Tehran and presented them to Fath-Ali Shah. - This is missing a period. The first sentence also is a bit clunky; suggest They discovered the tomb... which was filled with gold and jewelry.
Done
  • Include role/title of Abbas Mirza
Done
  • According to tradition
Done
  • Abdollah's family took a summer trip to Soltanieh. Fath-Ali Shah held a wedding party there for the new couple. can be condensed into one sentence by substituting the period with ", where"
Done
  • by his fathers order should have an apostrophe in "father's"
Done
  • Do we know anything about what the vassals complained to Fath-Ali Shah about, specifically? I know sources aren't always super specific but if we can get any better than just "complained", it would be great.
Unfortunately, there's nothing. Although, in the Appearance and skills section, James Edward Alexander says that he was cruel towards his subjects.
  • There's a jump from the subject accompanying his father on a trip to the father suddenly dying - maybe fill in a bit of context?
Done
  • Wouldn't the upcoming conflict be better referred to as a battle than a war?
Replaced with battle
  • They dispersed two hours before dawn and before any confrontation took place and Abdollah Mirza was forced to flee to Qazvin. - Three "and"s here feels like a run-on.
Amended it
Amended it
  • Unclosed parentheses when discussing name and reign of Mohammad Shah
Done
  • It's not super clear to me what happens in the last two sentences of this paragraph - How is Abdollah allowed to decide who is King of Iran if his brother has already taken control? Maybe I just haven't had enough caffeine yet this morning.
Replaced it with pledged allegiance.
  • Do we know how or where he died?
Only that he died in his sister's house
  • What is the significance of Divan-e Marathi?
  • MOS:SOB in "satire Mathnavi"
  • Last 2 sentences in paragraph can be condensed - "...satire Mathnavi about life of a balding person that Abdollah Mirza co-wrote with his brother..."
Changed the whole sentence to 'He also co-wrote a satirical mathnavi called Golnameh or Kalnameh about life of a balding person with his brother Mohammad Reza Mirza'
  • The idea of having an "appearance and skills" section seems a bit strange to me. Curious to hear what other editors think, but this could maybe be assimilated into the article somehow? The second paragraph also suffers from pronoun-specificity issues.
@AviationFreak: I think we can integrate James Edward Alexander's words into the 'Removal from Zanjan government' section as he explains that Abdollah Mirza was a cruel person and his subjects lived in misery. Any thoughts?
Yes, that seems to me like it would be a good reworking of the structure. AviationFreak💬 00:32, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Done

Overall, a solid first FAC article. The prose is a little rough around the edges but otherwise looking good to me. AviationFreak💬 15:35, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hi AviationFreak, I was wondering if you felt in a position to either support or oppose this nomination? Obviously, neither is obligatory. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:08, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Looking much better now. My only remaining quibbles are in the last section:
  • What is the significance of Divan-e Marathi?
Hi AviationFreak, there is not any significant to Divan-e Marathi, I just listed it among his other works.
Gotcha - I'd hesitate to include it just because it looks a bit out of place without any explanation of significance or content, but it's not a galring issue.
  • Suggest merging the two paragraphs as one is only a single sentence
Done
Happy to support upon these items being changed or discussed here. AviationFreak💬 15:25, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support on prose. AviationFreak💬 13:36, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from ChrisTheDude edit

  • I haven't read the above - this is what I got......
  • "He had two children with his wife, Mohsen Mirza and Shams al-Molok" - suggest changing to "He had two children, Mohsen Mirza and Shams al-Molok, with his wife" as at first glance I thought Mohsen was his wife's name
Done
  • "When at the early reign of Mohammad Shah" => "When during the early reign of Mohammad Shah"
Done
  • "Agha Mohammad Khan was still the king" - why "still"? I would think just "Agha Mohammad Khan was the king" will suffice
Amended it
  • Wikilink Shah of Iran
Done
  • "Because of his youth, Fath-Ali Shah appointed Mohammad Taqi Saheb Ali Abadi,[1] his favorite poet, as Abdollah Mirza's regent" => "Because of Abdollah Mirza's youth, Fath-Ali Shah appointed Mohammad Taqi Saheb Ali Abadi,[1] his favorite poet, as regent"
Reworded it
  • Merge the para beginning "Abdollah Mirza's rule over Zanjan" with the previous one as it is very short
Done
  • " and it was filled with gold and jewelry" - full stop is missing at the end of this sentence
Done
  • "After this incident, Prince Hossein Ali Mirza Farman Farma, governor of Fars and brother of Abdollah Mirza immediately" => "After this incident, Prince Hossein Ali Mirza Farman Farma, governor of Fars and brother of Abdollah Mirza, immediately"
Done
  • "or according to Khatibi, 1812" - who is/was Khatibi?
A modern historian, changed it to 'according to another source'
  • "According tradition" => "According to tradition"
Done
  • "by his fathers order" => "by his father's order"
Done
  • "Mohammad Mirza (later known as Mohammad Shah (r. 1834-1848)" - you haven't closed the brackets opened before the word "later"
Amended it
  • "about life of a balding person" => "about the life of a balding person"
Done
  • "According to Behzadi" - who is/was Behzadi
A modern historian; added it in the article
  • "Abdollah Mirza had found his father's companion" - eh? He found his father's companion? Who was his father's companion and where did he find him? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:26, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Reworded it
@ChrisTheDude: I believe all points have been addressed. Amir Ghandi (talk) 19:23, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi ChrisTheDude, I was wondering if you felt in a position to either support or oppose this nomination? Obviously, neither is obligatory. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:09, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Aarrggh, another one I commented on and then forgot about. I'll try and take a look at lunchtime...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:39, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Funk edit

Good with one link for each, but they should be linked at first mention in the article body, now it seems you kept the links at second mentions instead. FunkMonk (talk) 21:44, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed it
  • Don't think lady needs to be linked, too unspecific.
Dislinked it
  • "Mother Kulthum Khanum Mazanderani" The article body doesn't indicate Mazanderani was part of her name?
Amended it
  • " By his order, the Jameh Mosque of Zanjan and Zanjan Government House were built. The Zanjan Bazaar was expanded as well." When?
Added the year for Jameh Mosque, but I don't know the year for the government house
  • "Abdollah Mirza married the daughter of Soleyman Khan Qajar Etezad ol-Dowleh" At what age?
Fifteen, added it to the article
  • "Abdollah Mirza had two children, Mohsen Mirza and Shams al-Molok, with his wife." Born when? And what happened to them?
Neither their birth date nor their fate is known
  • "During the Second Russo-Persian War" Any link?
Done
  • "fought Valerian Madatov " Present who he was for context?
Done
  • "In 1827, vassals complained to Fath-Ali Shah about Abdollah Mirza and the Shah removed him from the government" What did they complain about?
Nothing we know
  • "and pledged allegiance his nephew, Mohammad Shah" Allegiance to?
Done
  • "and died on that exact date, 18 June 1846" Any idea how?
Nope
  • Link f Fath-Ali Shah in the article body, now it's only linked in the intro. Everything linked in the intro should also be linked at first mention in the article body.
Done
  • "the 11th son of Fath-Ali Shah, king of Qajar Iran from 1797 to 1834" This only seems to be stated in the intro, which should not have unique info. Repeat it in the article body with source.
Done
  • Link Jameh Mosque of Zanjan in its caption.
Done
  • Why should his nephew become shah instead of one of his brothers? Isn't this against rules of succession?
Because Mohammad Shah was the eldest son of the former crown prince, Abbas Mirza. Add the information in the article
  • "Abdollah has been described as the prince of writers and poets." Only stated in the intro.
Deleted it.

@FunkMonk: I believe all of the points have been addressed. Amir Ghandi (talk) 17:35, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source review edit

Starting with spotchecks; footnote numbers refer to this version:

  • FN 2 cites "During the Second Russo-Persian War, Abdollah Mirza moved to Ardabil with an army to help Abbas Mirza, the crown prince and his older brother. During the war, Abdollah Mirza fought Valerian Madatov, a veteran of both Russo-Persian wars, and successfully looted horses, guns, and supplies." Several of the details given are not in the source -- Madatov's first name and experience, and the mention of Abbas Mirza (Mohammad Vali Mirza is mentioned as his brother; perhaps they are the same person?). The source has "In the second Russo-Persian war, he was sent to Ardabīl with the army of Ḵamsa; there he raided the Russian forces under Madatov and captured horses, guns, and supplies." I think this is too closely paraphrased.
  • FN 2 cites 'Abdollah Mirza studied Islamic astronomy under his brother Mohammad Vali Mirza. Abdollah Mirza was also a writer and poet. He wrote poetry under the pseudonym "Dara"' The source has "He studied astronomy under his brother Moḥammad Valī Mīrzā" and "This prince was a witty and clever poet who used the taḵalloṣ Dārā." The first part is too closely paraphrased. The second part is OK, but why is "writer" added to "poet"? I don't see separate comments on non-poetic writings in the source.
  • FN 15 cites "The exact reasons why Abdollah Mirza was ousted are unknown, but according to James Edward Alexander, a Scottish soldier and traveller, who met him in 1821, Abdollah's character was greedy and tyrannical and his subjects were the most oppressed people in Iran. As a result of his government, people suffered from poverty and the temperament of plunder and shamelessness had prevailed over them." The source has "his disposition is exceedingly grasping and tyrannical. His peasantry are the most oppressed in Persia, and, as a natural consequence of this, they are the most insolent, and very much addicted to plundering." The paraphrasing is too close, but in any case we can't cite this 1821 travelogue source to say that the reasons Abdollah Mirza was ousted are unknown -- that's something that can only be commented on by a historian.

Oppose and suggest withdrawal to address these issues. Those are the only three sources that I have access to, and there are issues with all three. I think a full spotcheck is needed by someone with access to the sources before renominating. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:47, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, I withdraw then. To be honest, I only translate this article from Farsi, and kinda hoped that the author there has sourced this rightly. Amir Ghandi (talk) 18:54, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Translating good quality articles is fine. But please, please don't nominate at FAC again unless you have checked every cite for source-text integrity. You may wish to consider looking for a FAC-savvy collaborator.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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