Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/2012 Budweiser Shootout/archive2
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 14:05, 27 June 2015 [1].
2012 Budweiser Shootout edit
This article is about one of two NASCAR exhibition races held in 2012. The Budweiser Shootout, was won by Kyle Busch, after passing Tony Stewart on the race's final lap. This is my second attempt at FAC for this article, which failed because of issues with prose. Since then, it has undergone a copyedit from the Guild of Copy Editors to address the concerns from the last time. I gladly welcome all feedback and comments regarding this article. Z105space (talk) 06:07, 6 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. I think this partly failed because of prose but also because of a lack of response. I'll gladly support as the article is in better shape than it was when I peer reviewed it and the GOCE looked at it; I'd hate to see this archived again due to a lack of reviews. --Bentvfan54321 (talk) 16:27, 16 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comments form Curly Turkey edit
- Feel free to revert any of my copyedits or to disagree with any of my following comments. I know nothing about racing—go ahead and snicker at any of my more ignorant comments.
- Stuff like "So-and-so, aided by XXX, passed YYY" goes right over my head. Are all these people not rivals?.
- Some of the individuals mentioned are team mates which I have added of mention.
- I saw a mix of serial and non-serial commas—I went with the serial throughout, but feel free to undo that.
- I have no objection to this.
- The 2012 Budweiser Shootout was a stock car race held before a crowd of 82,000 on February 18, 2012 at the Daytona International Speedway in Daytona Beach, Florida.: this sentence defines the topic of the article. I don't think "before a crowd of 82,000" is part of the definition of "2012 Budweiser Shootout", and should be moved out of the opening sentence.
- This has been rearranged
- the first exhibition race of the 2012 NASCAR Sprint Cup Series,: I might move this to the first sentence
- Done
- There's this hidden comment: Contradicts 82 laps elsewhere in the article; are caution laps added to the 75—this contradiciton will have to be sorted out.
- To avoid contradiction, I have mentioned that the race was scheduled to last 75 laps. In the race sub-section, I added mention of a green-white-checkered finish which extended the race to 82 laps after the caution was shown on lap 74.
- Was it also broadcast outside the US?
- Yes, although I am unable to find viewing figures for other countries. But i don't think it's important as NASCAR is primarily based in the United States.
- Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:35, 1 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- @Curly Turkey: Is there any issues with the amendments that I have made? Z105space (talk) 12:17, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, I'm giving this my support on prose. If you ever manage to find info on international stats or reception, please add it. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:18, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Mike Christie edit
Overall I think the article is close to FA standard. A couple of questions:
The track has four turns, and I see from the image provided that they are at what would be the corners of the oval if it were perfectly oval. To my non-NASCAR-expert eye the front stretch looks to be just as much a turn as the other four. Is it just convention not to refer to this as a turn, or am I missing something?
- This is not referred as a turn by NASCAR, as far as i'm aware.
- Comment − This is called the Tri-oval; it is not referred to as an official turn. --Bentvfan54321 (talk) 13:41, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- This is not referred as a turn by NASCAR, as far as i'm aware.
"Caution and green-flag laps were scored in the race" doesn't mean anything to me; you have a link to Racing flags#Yellow flag from "caution" in the lead, which is helpful, but I still don't know what it means to say these laps are scored. You might also link "green-flag" to Racing flags#Green flag; the green flag is mentioned in the yellow flag section but the extra link wouldn't hurt.
- I have placed the extra link in and "scored" in this instance means it counted towards the laps run in the race.
- I still think "scored" isn't clear to a reader unfamiliar with NASCAR. Wouldn't any race with caution flags automatically include green flag laps? The source says that the laps will "count", which I think is clearer. Does that mean that in some races yellow or green flag laps don't count towards the total lap count? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:26, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Your suggestion has been taken forward. And for your answer, no, all yellow and green flag laps are counted towards the total lap count in all other races held by NASCAR.
- I still think "scored" isn't clear to a reader unfamiliar with NASCAR. Wouldn't any race with caution flags automatically include green flag laps? The source says that the laps will "count", which I think is clearer. Does that mean that in some races yellow or green flag laps don't count towards the total lap count? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:26, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- I have placed the extra link in and "scored" in this instance means it counted towards the laps run in the race.
I was surprised to see that the starting positions were determined by lot. Isn't it usual for practice session times to determine starting position?
- No, starting position is usually determined by the fastest times in a qualifying session. This is the case in series like Formula One and IndyCar.
- OK -- is a draw usual in NASCAR then? Or was there some specific reason to have a draw instead of using qualifying session times? If it's usual no change to the article is needed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:26, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- The draw is unique to the Budweiser Shootout and has been so since the race's inception in 1979. All other races in NASCAR determine pole position by drivers' fastest qualifying times.
- I think you should add that to the article; that's an interesting fact and most non-NASCAR-fan readers won't know it. In fact, shouldn't there be a paragraph or so about the Budweiser Shootout in general -- how it was started, when the first race was held, its relative importance in the season, anything else of interest? Has it always been sponsored by Budweiser? Is the overall race series worthy of an article in its own right in the future? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:17, 10 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Your suggestions have been placed into the article mainspace. The race is only important as it is a "warm-up" for the premier NASCAR event, the Daytona 500. The race series itself has its own article under its current name of the Sprint Unlimited.
- I think you should add that to the article; that's an interesting fact and most non-NASCAR-fan readers won't know it. In fact, shouldn't there be a paragraph or so about the Budweiser Shootout in general -- how it was started, when the first race was held, its relative importance in the season, anything else of interest? Has it always been sponsored by Budweiser? Is the overall race series worthy of an article in its own right in the future? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:17, 10 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- The draw is unique to the Budweiser Shootout and has been so since the race's inception in 1979. All other races in NASCAR determine pole position by drivers' fastest qualifying times.
- OK -- is a draw usual in NASCAR then? Or was there some specific reason to have a draw instead of using qualifying session times? If it's usual no change to the article is needed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:26, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- No, starting position is usually determined by the fastest times in a qualifying session. This is the case in series like Formula One and IndyCar.
You use "chose" to describe the starting position allocations; I think this should be rephrased -- "choose" implies something less randomized. How about: "The 25 drivers determined their starting positions by lot. Martin Truex Jr. drew the pole position, with Kyle Busch, Keselowski, McMurray and Ragan rounding out the first five positions. Kurt Busch drew sixth place and Biffle was drew seventh, ahead of Dale Earnhardt Jr. and Allmendinger in eighth and ninth. Logano, Edwards, Burton, Newman, and Jeff Gordon drew the next five positions. Tony Stewart, who drew fifteenth, was followed by Hamlin, Clint Bowyer, Jimmie Johnson, Kahne, and Waltrip for the first 20 spots. Ambrose, Kevin Harvick, Kenseth, Paul Menard, and Montoya drew the last five positions in the race." or something like that?
- Reworded this.
- You still have "chose" multiple times; if you don't like "drew" (my suggestion above) that's fine, but I don't think "chose" works. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:26, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Your suggestion has been taken
- You still have "chose" multiple times; if you don't like "drew" (my suggestion above) that's fine, but I don't think "chose" works. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:26, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Reworded this.
"The first exhibition race of the season, televised live in the United States by Fox, began at 8:10 pm EST": what's an exhibition race? Also, not knowing that this was an exhibition race meant that I didn't understand till the end of the sentence that this sentence is referring to the 2012 Budweiser Shootout, and not some other race. How about "The 2012 Budweiser Shootout was the first exhibition race of the season, ..." and perhaps a link to something that explains what an exhibition race is?
- Link has been added and sentence reworded
"During the pace laps, Keselowski, Allmendinger, and Kyle and Kurt Busch had to move to the rear of the grid because of their car changes": why? Is this a rule of some kind? What kind of changes?
- It is a rule when a driver changes a major component on his car or switches cars that he is required to start at the back of the grid. In this case, their crashes during practice required them to drive their team's back-up cars.
- OK; I like that phrasing better than what you have in the article. How about "because they had switched to their backup cars"? And what does it mean to say "During the pace laps" for this; wouldn't it make more sense to say "Before the pace laps"? Also, why is it plural -- isn't there usually only one pace lap? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - ([User:Mike Christie/Reference library|library]]) 10:26, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- I have looked at race footage myself and the cars had done three pace laps and this is the case in the other NASCAR races.
- OK; I like that phrasing better than what you have in the article. How about "because they had switched to their backup cars"? And what does it mean to say "During the pace laps" for this; wouldn't it make more sense to say "Before the pace laps"? Also, why is it plural -- isn't there usually only one pace lap? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - ([User:Mike Christie/Reference library|library]]) 10:26, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- It is a rule when a driver changes a major component on his car or switches cars that he is required to start at the back of the grid. In this case, their crashes during practice required them to drive their team's back-up cars.
"On lap 25, a second caution was issued and Gordon passed Edwards to move into second place": this makes it sounds as though Gordon passed Edwards during the caution; I thought no passing was allowed during cautions?
- I've amended this to avoid confusion.
After the third caution, "Earnhardt led the field back up to speed at the restart", but apparently Biffle was in the lead prior to the caution, so why would he not have led the restart?
- Biffle was behind Earnhardt Jr. after the pit stops.
- That explains it, but I didn't follow that in the article. I'd guess an aficionado would understand without further explanation, but a little more would help non-experts. I don't think you need "(followed by Biffle)"; instead I'd suggest "most of the leaders, including Biffle, made pit stops" so that it's clear why Biffle is no longer in the lead. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:26, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Done
- That explains it, but I didn't follow that in the article. I'd guess an aficionado would understand without further explanation, but a little more would help non-experts. I don't think you need "(followed by Biffle)"; instead I'd suggest "most of the leaders, including Biffle, made pit stops" so that it's clear why Biffle is no longer in the lead. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:26, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Biffle was behind Earnhardt Jr. after the pit stops.
The first paragraph of "Post-race comments" includes several remarks about how the race was "more fun"; it sounds like they're referring to something that changed, in the format perhaps. Is that the case?
- They were referring to regulation changes which I have added into the background sub-section.
- That's a great help. Any chance of a link for tandem racing? I can sort of guess what it means, but I don't really know, and I don't know why these changes would make it less likely. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:26, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Unfortunely, there is no article on tandem racing.
- Well, I think Drafting (aerodynamics)#Bump drafting would work. You already link to that article; how about changing "After the two-car style draft" to link "two-car style draft" to the "Bump drafting" section directly? And also, how about putting "(also called tandem drafting)" in parentheses after "two-car style draft", to explain the quote later in the paragraph? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:17, 10 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- I have undertaken this suggestion.
- Well, I think Drafting (aerodynamics)#Bump drafting would work. You already link to that article; how about changing "After the two-car style draft" to link "two-car style draft" to the "Bump drafting" section directly? And also, how about putting "(also called tandem drafting)" in parentheses after "two-car style draft", to explain the quote later in the paragraph? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:17, 10 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Unfortunely, there is no article on tandem racing.
- That's a great help. Any chance of a link for tandem racing? I can sort of guess what it means, but I don't really know, and I don't know why these changes would make it less likely. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:26, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- They were referring to regulation changes which I have added into the background sub-section.
The last paragraph refers to pack racing and makes it sounds as if there is some reason to expect that there will be more pack racing than tandem racing (whatever that is) in the future. Is that so?
- Yes it would.
- Struck; I see now that this is the same issue as the previous comment. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:26, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes it would.
-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:54, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- @Mike Christie: I have dealt the points you have raised. Is there anything else that needs addressing? Z105space (talk) 21:42, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Two more:
Footnotes 8 and 10 appear to have identical content; I suggest eliminating one of them.
- Eliminated the Fox Sports source.
Footnote 11 is content-free; the archive failed.
- Removed archive link because link displays robot.txt message.
-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:26, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- @Mike Christie: The additional work you requested has been completed. Z105space (talk) 11:49, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Everything I noted has been fixed. I checked two or three footnotes but didn't try to do a general spotcheck. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:53, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support with nitpicks. Note that I do not follow racing of any kind. I thought the article was pretty eas to follow in general.
- Do you really need the heading for Report? I'd eliminate that and promote those 4 subheadings to headings.
- Yes. It is the standard for all motorsport race report articles and I believe it would be unnecessary to convert the subheadings into headings.
- I'm not entirely sure I understand the cause and effect here: "During the pace laps, Keselowski, Allmendinger, and Kyle and Kurt Busch had to move to the rear of the grid because they had switched to their backup cars"
Karanacs (talk) 15:21, 11 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Image review
- File:Budweiser_Shootout_at_Daytona.jpg: do you have an updated source?
- Original source has been archived
- File:Daytona_International_Speedway.svg: is this based on another image or data source?
- It would be both in my opinion
- File:NASCAR_practice.jpg: source link is dead. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:32, 14 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Source review
What makes speedway-guide a reliable source? It's down now, but I don't see any evidence of editorial process or evidence that reliable sources would cite it.
- The Speedway-Guide source has been removed with one from ESPN.
Fn 22 and 25 - you write the same publisher differently.
Otherwise, looks good. --Laser brain (talk) 13:27, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- All is well. --Laser brain (talk) 17:01, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 14:05, 27 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.