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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/1987 Giro d'Italia/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Graham Beards via FACBot (talk) 12:33, 14 January 2015 (UTC) [1].[reply]

1987 Giro d'Italia edit

Nominator(s): Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 20:01, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I've put in some considerable labor into the article to bring it from what it was ([2]). I've nominated it before [Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/1987 Giro d'Italia/archive1 here]. The nomination stalled due to no reviews, but many expressed that I re-nominate when I have the time, and now I do. I'll get to any comments quickly, so be prepared for prompt responses. Thanks in advance!

Also, I have perused the internet databases in search of information on doping controls and cases at the 1987 giro and have not found anything; so that is why there is nothing about doping in the article. I haven't found a source that claims there weren't doping cases either. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 20:01, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I looked at just the lead section and did some copyediting; feel free to revert, as always. If you ping me, I'll be happy to watchlist this page and discuss anything in the lead. I had some trouble figuring out where you need hyphens vs. dashes because I don't know what some of the team names mean, but someone will probably figure it out and fix it. - Dank (push to talk) 00:41, 16 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Those should be dashes, fixed those. And I'm fine with the changes you've made with the lead. And in cycling, the team names are generally sponsors, so that's why there are so many hyphens in the names. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 01:13, 16 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll be looking over this anew today. Hopefully I'll get all my comments together in time to post them for today, but I should be finished by tomorrow at the latest. ceranthor 15:43, 20 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Ceranthor
Lead
  • Defending champion Roberto Visentini took the first race leader's maglia rosa (English: pink jersey) after winning the opening prologue, before losing the lead to Breukink the following stage. - "After + gerund" followed by "before + gerund" doesn't work well. I'd suggest changing up the sentence after "prologue". ceranthor 20:05, 22 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 15:40, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The fifteenth stage of the 1987 Giro has been recognized as an iconic event in the history of the Giro - Double usage of Giro is redundant. Maybe in the history of the race?
Fixed Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 15:40, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Teams
  • Hard to find much to tweak here, but a few quibbles.
  • The presentation of the teams – where each team's roster and manager are introduced in front the media and local dignitaries – took place on 20 May, at the Casino of San Remo.[1][2] - In front the media?
haha Fixed Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 15:40, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • From the riders that began this edition, 133 made it to the finish - I don't like "made it to the finish". What about completed the race, or finished the Giro?
Fixed Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 15:40, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Pre-race favorites
  • It was widely believed that Roche came into the race in great shape after winning the Tour de Romandie and finishing high in a few single day races.[6][7][9] - Finishing high? That doesn't sound right grammatically.
Fixed Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 15:40, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Route and stages
  • The organizers chose to include one rest day.[7] When compared to the previous year's race, the race was 56.4 km (35 mi) longer, contained one more rest day and individual time trial.[17] - Does that mean that the previous year, there was no rest day? In that case, I don't think mentioning that the race "contained one more rest day" is particularly relevant.
Fixed Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 15:40, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Race overview
  • His performance in stage 1a was enough to earn him the coveted race leader's maglia rosa (English: pink jersey),[20] - Doesn't sound like the writing of an encyclopedia to me. I'd like plain "earned him" rather than "was enough to"; either way, this way it's more concise and clean.
Fixed Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 15:40, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • and the second placed rider.[22][23] - Is it traditional to write second placed rider? I prefer second place rider or rider in second place.
Fixed Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 15:40, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The day of racing ended finished with a field sprint that Paolo Cimini barely won after overtaking Rosola in the final meters.[28][29] - The placement of barely seems a bit odd to me. Did he win because he barely overtook Rosola, or do you mean to say that he just barely won? I think this sentence is a little unclear.
Took out the barely Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 15:40, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Stay consistent! You had previously spelled out numbers for time then use "Roche crossed the line in twelfth place, 56 seconds".
I was taught that you spell out the numbers under 20, so what would you say I should do here? Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 15:40, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You also have the following sentence in "Race overview": Carrera Jeans-Vagabond beat out the Del Tongo squad by fifty-four seconds to win the leg. Pick one style and stick to it throughout the article!
Fixed Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 21:34, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments on the last two sections withstanding, this looks good so far. Nice work, Disc Wheel! ceranthor 20:05, 22 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Classification leadership
  • This section looks fine.
Aftermath
  • A La Repubblica writer believed it to be the second worst performance by Italian riders after 1972, since no Italian riders finished inside the top four and many famous Italian cyclists did not complete the event.[68] - I'm not sure "believed" is the best verb choice here.
I'm stuck on this one, I cannot think of another word to use, any ideas? Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 21:34, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Since it's an opinion, I like opined (that), suggested (that it was)... generally any synonym that expresses an opinion should work fine. ceranthor 21:49, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Done Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 22:17, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mario Fossati, of La Repubblica, considered that stage winners Johan van der Velde and Jean-François Bernard performed very strongly, - Considered is definitely not the best word choice here. It's very clunky and I've never heard it used with that.
Fixed Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 21:34, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Many writers point to the fifteenth stage as the defining moment of the race;[7][30][32][65][61][67][70] some have even said that it is one of the most famous in the Giro d'Italia and cycling history.[7][70] - Who is "some"?
One is a book author, I added him. But other is the author of this [3] but I cannot find his name anywhere on the page. What should I do? Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 21:34, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I would just say "book author" and a "[Insert Name of the Newspaper From That Source] writer"... ceranthor 21:49, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Once these are resolved, I'll look through the references as best as I can. ceranthor 19:31, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Done Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 22:17, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support - I think this is ready. It seems like the sources check out, but the Italian makes it difficult to make sure they're totally okay. Disc Wheel, do you know of any Italian-speaking editors who can testify to the veracity of the Italian language sources (excluding the clearly reliable ones, like BBC and major news sources)? ceranthor 05:21, 24 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the help! As for knowing an Italian editor, I do not, my wikipedia connections are pretty thin. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 05:37, 24 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I left a note at WT:ITALY. We'll see if anyone turns up. ceranthor 14:59, 24 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by Parutakupiu

Hey Disc Wheel. Going for a second featured Giro, hey? I've been already copyediting the lead and the team sections, but in the meantime here's some comments/questions:

  • In the team list, could you specificy the country of origin of each team? We know that nine are foreign, but not which ones. Maybe adding the country between parentheses?
Let me check the Italian sources and get back to you, thats where I remember getting that fact from. If it doesn't say in there, then I likely won't be able to add the countries. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 21:34, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well I found the reference and it just says "eleven Italian (against nine foreign)" so I don't really have much to go on for what teams came from where (I moved the reference up to the line). Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 22:17, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, ref 5, which has the team list, shows the nationality in parenthesis just after each team name! Parutakupiu (talk) 22:22, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
My only issue with adding the nationalities is that WikiProject Cycling reached a decision that flags should not be tied to the trade teams, but only to the national teams link to discussion. I know they talk of flags there, but I feel like adding the nationality would be the same as adding the flag. What do you think? Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 23:25, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that it is not essential. But then you do refer to nine teams not being based in Italy, and this can raise the question/curiosity about which of them are not from Italy. Anyway, if you ended up adding the "country of origin", I ask it to be just the name, no flags. Parutakupiu (talk) 23:41, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think I might just remove the phrase. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 02:57, 24 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could you point to me where in refs 3 and 4 is stated the number of riders that finished the race?
I replaced them with better references! Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 21:34, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

— Parutakupiu (talk) 20:02, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • I've finished copyediting the whole article. I will now make a route map, similar to the one I did for the 1988 edition. Parutakupiu (talk) 18:25, 25 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Map added. Parutakupiu (talk) 22:58, 25 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It looks great, your edits and the map, I attempted to make a map for the 1988 one before you made one for that article and I could not get anything good! I also removed the foreign team bit, just to go by what was agreed upon by the WP:CYC people. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 23:06, 25 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Ping me when you're ready for another Giro FAC. Parutakupiu (talk) 23:11, 26 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I appreciate it. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 01:40, 27 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]


Support Comments. I've copyedited slightly; please revert anything I messed up.

  • "800 m (2,624.7 ft)": I think you can specify the precision of {{convert}}; I'd suggest making this stop at feet, and not go down to tenths. Conversions should be at about the same level of precision on both sides.
Fixed. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 23:23, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the hatred of the tifosi, the Italian sports fans": I don't know how the source has it, but if tifosi means sports fans in general, shouldn't this just be "the hatred of Italian cycling fans"? Or can one say something like "the hatred of the cycling tifosi (Italian sports fans)"?
It does mean a general group of Italian fans, I changed it to "... him the hatred of the the Italian cyclings fans" Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 23:23, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Apparently Visentini retired from the race after a fall, but you don't mention this in the race overview, unless I'm missing it somehow.

Otherwise this looks pretty sound. Prose seems OK. I did a couple of checks for close paraphrasing and found no problems. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:32, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 23:23, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I've supported above; the changes look good to me. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:35, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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