Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/1964 Gabon coup d'état/archive2
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was not promoted by User:Maralia 20:57, 21 October 2008 [1].
1964 Gabon coup d'état edit
- Nominator(s): editorofthewiki
- previous FAC (00:34, 19 September 2008)
This article was a featured article candidate about a month ago. It received a fair amount of support, and also a fair amount of criticism. In the end, it was closed as unsuccessfull, and User:SandyGeorgia outlined the major concerns in her closing statement. It is copied verbatim, except my responses to pre-empt your concerns.
- Sources. The original sources initially weren't consulted, most of them were in French, and Editorofthewiki stated that he doesn't read French. Text wasn't always supported by the sources, and additional sources surfaced that hadn't yet been consulted. Considering that editors now have access to the new and original sources, proper research to write a comprehensive article of featured caliber can now be conducted. Of greater concern is that a number of supporters didn't understand that Wikis aren't reliable sources, and an article translated from another Wiki without consulting the original sources does not meet WP:V.
- Oh the original sources have been consulted now, by User:Nishkid64 (another large author of this) and myself. Disclaimer: I do read a bit of French, but I am not that great of a speaker to engage in an actual conversation. The information not supported by the sources was mostly me adding a ref tag in between something that was reffed to something else, and I consider this problem resolved.
- Translation. Several translation issues were raised; writing a featured article without being able to read most of the original source material is a greater challenge. The article was initially translated from the French wiki, using Google translator. I speak fluent Spanish, and ran several samples through Google translator and found that the results weren't usable for a quality article; they might provide an adequate start to fill in a redlinked stub or perhaps to raise a stub to a start-class article if I (as a fluent speaker) also consulted the sources to correct the errors introduced by Google translator, which are substantial.
- One can write sentences in French in different ways, especially in quotations. Since there were no English sources to verify this, we had to rely on ourselves. The French part of this was mostly taken from Leon M'ba as a content fork, and Nishkid (who wrote most of that article relied firstly on Google translater and then native French speakers.
- POV. Some of the discrepancies identified by Ling.Nut in his userspace analysis of the sources indicate the possibility that some POV may have crept in, either from the original article, from the translation or from the incomplete sources. It will take some time to analyze all of these issues, re-consulting the original and new sources.
- I believe the POV issues were fixed at the FAC, but I will be happy to fix anything specific.
- Comprehensive. Questions about the comprehensiveness of the article were raised early on; they continued to emerge as new and original sources were examined. Having access to all of the sources should be helpful in doing the level of research required in a featured article.
- The "new and original souces" that Sandy mentioned were Darlington 1968 and Matthews 1966. I have incorporated anything of value into the article. Ling mentioned that the Gabonese oil industry became dominant over the timber profession. Interesting fact, but that had nothing to do with the actual coup.
That said, I honestly believe this is the most comprehensive and best written article on the coup. There may be some nitpicks, sure, but I do not anticipate anything major. I am looking forward to your comments! ~one of many editorofthewikis (talk/contribs/editor review)~ 00:33, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment EotW, were you able to have the French sources verified for this article (actually have someone with access to the French sources check the translation)?
- User:Nishkid64 found someone with French-language abilities for me. I personally looked over the sources, but not much of the actual translaton. ~one of many editorofthewikis (talk/contribs/editor review)~ 00:18, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The reason that I ask is I was only able to access one of the sources, Keene. You used that work for a quote: "While wanting and sincerely believing in democracy, to the point of no charges irritating him more than being called a dictator, [M'ba] was given virtually all power and reduced parliament's role in a government which is already substandard."
- My main concern is the word "substandard". The source quote is this: « Se voulant et se croyant sincèrement démocrate, au point qu’aucune accusation ne l’irrite davantage que celle d’être un dictateur, il n’en a pas moins eu de cesse qu’il n’ait fait voter une constitution lui accordant pratiquement tous les pouvoirs et réduisant le parlement au rôle d’un décor coûteux que l’on escamote même en cas de besoin» which is, roughly: "Wanting and believing sincerely in democracy, to the point that nothing irritated him as an accusation of dictator, he nevertheless had a constitution according him practically all power and reducing the role of parlement to a "costly decoration (? unsure ?)" that could be "disappeared" if need be" Note, "disappeared" is the verb escamoter (disappear, Houdini-style). I don't think the word "substandard" captures the sense of the French quote. Lazulilasher (talk) 23:36, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- reduced parliament's role to a costly rubberstamp though even this could be dispensed with if the need arose? --ROGER DAVIES talk 09:50, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Heh. You always have problems with this sort of thing.
- ) I personally translated that (one of the only parts I could understand) and might have been off a bit. See my opening statement. On the quote: You seemed to hit it better than me. I touched it up a bit (now reads "Wanting and believing sincerely in democracy, to the point that nothing irritated him as an accusation of dictator, [M'ba] nevertheless created a constitution giving him practically all power and reducing the role of parliament to that of a decoration that he could dissolve if need be.", seems a bit truer to the intended meaning. We have zero references of this in my English books, so we can only rely on the translations of us Wikipedians. ~one of many editorofthewikis (talk/contribs/editor review)~ 00:18, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Just a note: I'm not sure what "un décor coûteux" is; my best guess is a "costly decoration". Note: I would not be comfortable translating an article for Featured Status, even though I speak French confidently. Especially for quotes regarding one's opinion of a coup; the language is too nuanced for me. I would not feel confident putting an article up for FAC if I hadn't personally verified the source. I notice the Keene article is rather lengthy; I did not read the whole thing, but it appears to provide much information. I have an idea: look at the Keene source, and other French sources, and work back into the article. I'd be willing to help; although, it could take awhile as I've got my own articles on the stove. Perhaps after a few months, after you're confident you have everything accurate, then you can re-nom it. Lazulilasher (talk) 01:01, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The Keene article actually has very little on the coup at all. It mostly talks about what Gabon was like during this lime period, with all the important political figures etc. ~one of many editorofthewikis (talk/contribs/editor review)~ 01:06, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Those are not things which could add to the article? Lazulilasher (talk) 01:11, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The Keene article actually has very little on the coup at all. It mostly talks about what Gabon was like during this lime period, with all the important political figures etc. ~one of many editorofthewikis (talk/contribs/editor review)~ 01:06, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Just a note: I'm not sure what "un décor coûteux" is; my best guess is a "costly decoration". Note: I would not be comfortable translating an article for Featured Status, even though I speak French confidently. Especially for quotes regarding one's opinion of a coup; the language is too nuanced for me. I would not feel confident putting an article up for FAC if I hadn't personally verified the source. I notice the Keene article is rather lengthy; I did not read the whole thing, but it appears to provide much information. I have an idea: look at the Keene source, and other French sources, and work back into the article. I'd be willing to help; although, it could take awhile as I've got my own articles on the stove. Perhaps after a few months, after you're confident you have everything accurate, then you can re-nom it. Lazulilasher (talk) 01:01, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- ) I personally translated that (one of the only parts I could understand) and might have been off a bit. See my opening statement. On the quote: You seemed to hit it better than me. I touched it up a bit (now reads "Wanting and believing sincerely in democracy, to the point that nothing irritated him as an accusation of dictator, [M'ba] nevertheless created a constitution giving him practically all power and reducing the role of parliament to that of a decoration that he could dissolve if need be.", seems a bit truer to the intended meaning. We have zero references of this in my English books, so we can only rely on the translations of us Wikipedians. ~one of many editorofthewikis (talk/contribs/editor review)~ 00:18, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Firm Oppose. If this (see immediately above) is the level of the translation. I'm sorry, but this is not good enough. (And it really doesn't help that, for instance, the English of the nomination is sorely lacking: "One can write sentences in French in different ways, especially in quotations"?!?!) --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 00:37, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What I was trying to say was that since there are no English sources referring to this, no one can have the exact meaning put into French. My translation was no far off. Do you have a specific point (other than the occasional (small) mistranslation that occure even with hardened French spekers) to make this "firm oppose" actionable? ~one of many editorofthewikis (talk/contribs/editor review)~ 00:45, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "What I was trying to say was that since there are no English sources referring to this, no one can have the exact meaning put into French." I'm sorry, I really don't understand what you are trying to say here.
- And the translation was sufficiently far off. It was very far off in its first incarnation. But it was studded with numerous and significant errors even at the second attempt. For instance, you don't seem to recognize the reflexive form of the verb: "Wanting and believing himself to be a democrat..."
- I hesitate to bring up credentials, but... I have translated a published book. (This one, as it happens.) What we have here is not a translation at a professional level, which is what we should be looking for at FAC. I also teach languages, and have in my time taught translation. It seems to me that you would struggle in an intermediate (200-level) college course of the kind I am teaching right now (and taught this morning.)
- Look, EotW, I know you're trying hard here, and really want to get this suite of articles through FAC. But I think you need to realize that in this case you're not in a position to do so. You would simply need far better French to undertake such a translation or work with French material to sufficient standard. That is my very specific point. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 00:51, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Nice book: perhaps I'll read it someday. I'll admit my French is, well, pretty bad. I am entirely self taught, but that really isn't the point. I did use native French speakers on this article, who I will seek out for any last minute copyedit. Please fix any specific problems, jb. I just think that articles can never be perfect no matter what. They're just "our best work" which I consider this incredibly close, if not there. I've just worked too long and hard on this article for it not to be featured. ~one of many editorofthewikis (talk/contribs/editor review)~ 01:14, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- EotW, I think you should feel very proud with what you've done with these articles, given your self-taught French. But I also think you should realize your limits here. The fact that they do not become FAs does not mean you have wasted your time. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 01:27, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Nice book: perhaps I'll read it someday. I'll admit my French is, well, pretty bad. I am entirely self taught, but that really isn't the point. I did use native French speakers on this article, who I will seek out for any last minute copyedit. Please fix any specific problems, jb. I just think that articles can never be perfect no matter what. They're just "our best work" which I consider this incredibly close, if not there. I've just worked too long and hard on this article for it not to be featured. ~one of many editorofthewikis (talk/contribs/editor review)~ 01:14, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What I was trying to say was that since there are no English sources referring to this, no one can have the exact meaning put into French. My translation was no far off. Do you have a specific point (other than the occasional (small) mistranslation that occure even with hardened French spekers) to make this "firm oppose" actionable? ~one of many editorofthewikis (talk/contribs/editor review)~ 00:45, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose for the same reasons that forced me to oppose Paul Gondjout's FAC. Sorry, but I simply can't support an article that uses information translated using Google Translator and "the translations of us Wikipedians". Cheers, –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 00:58, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Read the opening line. I used online translators to assist me (I can read basic French) as well as (this is the key point, I only ran the sources through online translators to help me) pros. ~one of many editorofthewikis (talk/contribs/editor review)~ 01:01, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- EotW, I think you misunderstand. You need someone with excellent French to be able to use a translated source. That person must also have excellent English to correctly capture the sense of the French author. I do not feel that I'd be able to translate an article into English at a professional level. Lazulilasher (talk) 01:09, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I echo Lazulilasher's thoughts. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 01:19, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- EotW, I think you misunderstand. You need someone with excellent French to be able to use a translated source. That person must also have excellent English to correctly capture the sense of the French author. I do not feel that I'd be able to translate an article into English at a professional level. Lazulilasher (talk) 01:09, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Read the opening line. I used online translators to assist me (I can read basic French) as well as (this is the key point, I only ran the sources through online translators to help me) pros. ~one of many editorofthewikis (talk/contribs/editor review)~ 01:01, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose. This article is way short of being one of wikipedia's finest. Apart from the concerns which I share about the quality of the translation, even the English is pretty poor: "Despite these incidents, legislative elections planned before the coup were held in April 1964. They were originally to be held on 23 February, though he dissolved the National Assembly and rescheduled them for 12 April." --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 01:17, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Quick-fail—This cannot be fixed in the time that is possible on this list, and reviewers have already put too much time into it because it was underprepared. It should be withdrawn now and resubmitted (yes, again) after significant time maturing out to pasture. I want to reinforce my colleagues' opinions above that this is way short of the required standard WRT several of the criteria. Here are a few random examples of prose problems from the middle:
- Logic and relevance issue: " Much of the 600-man Gabonese army had previously served in the French army prior to independence, where they were paid modestly. However, like much of the rest of the country, they were displeased by M'ba's actions against Aubame." The relevance of the bit about modest payment isn't immediately obvious, and it muddies the point of contrast in "However,".
- OMG: "U.S. Ambassador to Gabon Charles Darlington suggested that the coup plotters may have tried to imitate Colonel Christophe Soglo.[31] Soglo, a commander in Dahomey's 800-man army, had deposed President Hubert Maga in October 1963,[32] ruled for about a month, then resigning in favor of Dahomey's citizens." Start with "The". Commas either side of his name, usually. You talk of imitating Soglo before you tell us what was imitated—it's back to front and annoying to read. "Resigning" is ungrammatical. This is embarrassing.
Sorry to be harsh, but help by more and different editors is required before resubmission. Tony (talk) 14:04, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: Withdrawn by nominator [2]. Maralia (talk) 01:05, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.