Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/1858 Bradford sweets poisoning/archive1

1858 Bradford sweets poisoning

Featured article candidates/1858 Bradford sweets poisoning/archive1

Nominator(s): SchroCat (talk) 19:15, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In 1858 a mix up over two barrels of white powder led to twenty deaths and over 200 ill with arsenic poisoning. Food purity laws had not been thought of and arsenic was readily available over the counter, which was a recipe for tragedy - and all for a few sweeties. - SchroCat (talk) 19:15, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt

"The adulteration of food had been practised in the UK since before the middle ages" I might add something like "with chemicals" or some such to state what they were adulterated with.
I've outlined that in the following sentences. It's not always chemicals: leaves were added to tea and flour to mustard, for example. - SchroCat (talk) 07:05, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"The extent of the arsenic-related deaths was such ..." I assume we are talking about accidents AND murder here. Why not start with "So many people died of arsenic poisoning ..."?
Done - SchroCat (talk) 07:05, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is anything said about the taste of arsenic trioxide?
Added (thankfully without the need for OR!) - SchroCat (talk) 07:05, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is there information about where the arsenic comes from? Is is a by-product of some process?
We've got in there that arsenic trioxide is industrially produced: is anything more needed for this article? - SchroCat (talk) 07:05, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"The medical historian James C Whorton" Anything after the C?
Oops. . added
I don't know if this would help you or not.
Thanks for that. I read that one when researching; the core of the important information is all in The Times too, which is the one I cited.
In the references I see The Daily Telegraph unitalicised.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:56, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorted - SchroCat (talk) 07:05, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks Wehwalt - much obliged. - SchroCat (talk) 07:05, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support Wehwalt (talk) 13:53, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Joeyquism

I'll get to this soon. Apologies for not being able to get to Elinor Fettiplace in time. joeyquism (talk) 20:29, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not keen on chemistry myself (it was one of my lesser-attended subjects), so I will not be able to comment on accuracy. I am, however, keen on good writing and candy, both of which are certainly featured in this article. I've noted a few things below for the sake of being thorough, some being nits - feel free to refuse with justification:

Lead

Should Middle Ages be in title case (along with other instances)? I may be mistaken here, though I'm noticing that title case seems to be the standard in its respective article.
Done - SchroCat (talk) 09:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Background

I believe the following sentences would flow better if merged with a semicolon: "Cost was the reason adulterants were used. Sugar, for example, cost 6½ d per pound; the adulterant cost ½ d per pound."
Same with these: "So many people died of arsenic poisoning that legislation in the form of the Arsenic Act 1851 was introduced. It was the first piece of UK legislation to attempt to control the sale of a poisonous substance."
Both done - SchroCat (talk) 09:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Outbreak

As a Yankee, I was initially confused by "7½ d" (perhaps I just lack numismatistic knowledge) - I now understand this to mean pence, though I could be wrong and be actively embarrassing myself right now. Would it be worth it to write it out, or include a link to £sd?
It's linked in the above section (when we discuss "6½ d per pound;")

Investigation, arrests and court case

"On the Sunday morning the local police" - Should this be just "On Sunday morning"/"On the following [Sunday] morning", or is this a grammar variance thing? In America it's usually just "On [day of the week]", but I recognize that this is a British-specific article, so if this is considered proper British English, feel free to chastise me for my ignorance.
This is fine in BrEng (both are acceptable, but this makes a little more sense in this instance). - SchroCat (talk) 09:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Neal's wife also admitted that she had found other fragments and thrown them on to the fire" - May have missed it in context, but I'm not seeing any prior mention of a fire; in this case would it be clearer to say "thrown them into a fire"?
The definite article is a little more widely used in BrEng than AmEng, and while both are usable here, we'd probably prefer it here as there was one fire in the location. If there were multiple, we'd use "a". - SchroCat (talk) 09:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"By the end of Wednesday, fifteen people has been reported dead" - "has" should be "had"
Yep, good spot. - SchroCat (talk) 09:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Legacy

"The deaths led to calls for legislation to stop similar events occurring" - Add "from" between "events" and "occurring"
I think both are correct in BrEng, but this way feels/sounds more natural to my ear. - SchroCat (talk) 09:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"The medical historian James C. Whorton considers the Act 'was next to useless'" - Should this be "considered"? Also not sure of the inclusion of "was" in the quote.
Not only is Wharton still alive, but his text, with his opinion, is also still in existence, so "was" is correct". - SchroCat (talk) 09:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Overall, I very much enjoyed reading this article (though not to say I endorse the subject matter's happening). I do question my own critiques at times here, particularly those related to grammar, so if I've made any faux pas or caused any offense, please let me know. Looking forward to your replies, and I hope you're having a wonderful beginning to your week. joeyquism (talk) 08:09, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks User:Joeyquism. All sorted, except where commented on above. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the replies! I have no further comments; glad to support. joeyquism (talk) 15:02, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review by Generalissima

File:The Great Lozenge-Maker A Hint to Paterfamilias.jpg - PD (but needs US tag)
Now added - SchroCat (talk) 07:13, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
File:Arsenic trioxide.jpg - PD
File:As4O6-molecule-from-arsenolite-xtal-3D-balls.png - PD
File:Bradford,1863.png - PD, with US tag
File:West Yorkshire UK location map.svg - CC-BY-SA 3.0
File:John Henry Bell (1832-1906).jpeg - I think this needs the UK PD tag too (and should be ported to commons TBH)
Transferred, source and licence updated - SchroCat (talk) 07:13, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 21:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks Generalissima; all sorted. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 07:13, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good to me - Support. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 15:53, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh - I realized I actually had one prose question. I have no idea at all what a lozenge is in this context; I'm familiar with throat lozenges but I doubt that's what these Victorian children were eating. I assume it's a sort of hardy candy? Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 15:57, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately the sources don't make it too clear (although I'll go over them again to check there are no little hints I can include). I think, much like throat lozenges, these were a boiled sweet, much in the line of humbuugs, but that's a bit of OR. - SchroCat (talk) 18:18, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Did a little googling and according to this history of candy, lozenges originated as a type of gummy fruit-flavored medicinal candy, and the name mostly referred to their diamond shape. As time went on, they seem to have stopped being gummy and many have lost their traditional shape and medicinal nature, but they remain mostly fruity. So basically - fruit candy, I think. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 01:14, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by RoySmith

I don't know if I'll do a full review, but one thing jumped out at me. In File:As4O6-molecule-from-arsenolite-xtal-3D-balls.png, there's six oxygens, not three, as the name "arsenic trioxide" would indicate. Presumably this is a dimer. I don't think there's any need to do a deep dive into the chemistry, but this obvious (to anybody trained in chemistry) discrepancy needs to be at least be mentioned. Oddly enough (and that's an understatement), Arsenic trioxide, which is the deep dive, doesn't mention this either, but that's somebody else's problem. RoySmith (talk) 23:24, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not a chemist by any stretch, so thanks for that. Caption now tweaked. - SchroCat (talk) 07:05, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The chemist Arthur Hill Hassall was prominent in the field of food analysis and the first person to systematically study food through a microscope. The source says "Hassall became well known as the first food chemist to make a systematic use of the microscope to detect fraudulent additions to food." That's not quite the same thing. Over at DYK, we've learned to be wary about claims of somebody or something being a "first", since those claims so often turn out not to be true. In this case, there's a couple of issues. One is "being well known as the first" is not the same as actually being the first. The other is that the source talks specifically about food chemists, but you expanded that to all people. For all we know, there was somebody doing this kind of investigation earlier but they weren't a food chemist. RoySmith (talk) 01:28, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Reworded. - Many thanks for your comments, and I'd be delighted to hear more, if you have any. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 07:05, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

arsenic trioxide is the common name for the substance and the As₄O₆ is the molecular form it takes at standard conditions. So the caption was OK to start with. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 04:41, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Doing a read-through now...

highly poisonous arsenic trioxide I think we need a source for "highly poisonous". https://wwwn.cdc.gov/TSP/MMG/MMGDetails.aspx?mmgid=1424&toxid=3 says "Arsenic trioxide ... is one of the most toxic and prevalent forms of arsenic" but that's a relative measure. Later on it says "When arsenic trioxide is burned, it releases ... arsine gas ... which is highly toxic" which implies that the unburned substance isn't.
"highly poisonous" is hyperbole. I would just say "poisonous". Substances that kill in milligram quantities could be called "highly poisonous".
practised in the UK since before the Middle Ages the UK didn't exist in the middle ages, so that's a bit of an odd statement.
harmless additions, such as chicory, I think you want a semicolon after chicory, not a comma? On the other hand, this is a monster sentence; maybe break it into several? Something like "First were harmless additions such as chicory (full stop) Alternatively, adding flour to mustard ... tea leaves (full stop) And finally, toxic additions such as ..."
Those adulterating foodstuff used nicknames to hide the practice it took me a few readings to figure out that "those" refers to "the people doing the adulterating" and not "the foodstuffs". Some rewording might clarify this.
cost 6½ d per pound I see you've already discussed this with Wehwalt, but the use of "d" can indeed be confusing for those not familiar with historical British coinage. I know you linked "d" to Penny (British pre-decimal coin), but a single-letter link isn't easy to notice, so I suggest something like "cost 6½ d (pence) per pound" and link "pence".
soft furnishings what are these?
coloured with soot or indigo t Link to Indigo dye
I know I suggested earlier the use of "dimer", but I'm not actually sure I gave correct advice. I've asked for help from a SME.
It may be a dimer, but that is not so important in the context of this article. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 04:41, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is used as a wood preservative... Chromated copper arsenate would be a better link target.
it was thought that the cause of the deaths was cholera I would establish context by mentioning that this happened during the 1846–1860 cholera pandemic.

Sodium

I'd like to take a look in a bit. This is a very outside my expertise (which tends to be tech), but it seems like a fun article to read and review. Sohom (talk) 03:45, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from Graham Beards

The map is rather dark. I improved it but the Commons has tightened it's rules regarding overwriting of files: only the original poster can do so. Thoughts? Graham Beards (talk) 10:55, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Graham, That's a bit annoying of them! I can email you if you're happy to send me the file and I can upload? Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 11:00, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes let's do that and if you think it's not an improvement, no problem. Graham Beards (talk) 11:05, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Email sent. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 11:40, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Perfect - thanks Graham. New image uploaded (although you may need to clear you cache to see it in place). Much better. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 13:13, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When I improve a commons image, I generally upload the new version under a new title, i.e. File:Washington Square by Matthew Bisanz (adjusted).jpg. No worries about overwriting the original. RoySmith (talk) 01:01, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are welcome and I am happy to add my Support. Thank you for all your work on the article. Graham Beards (talk) 13:27, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from PMC

Loving your current tear through British food history. I read Swindled a few years ago and immediately thought of it when I opened this; delighted to see it in the refs already. Comments within the week, throw popcorn if I don't make it. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 00:59, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]