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Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 May 17

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May 17

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Category:LBV stars to Category:Luminous blue variables

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The result of the debate was Rename to Category:Luminous blue variable stars since variable stars is a grandparent category. Vegaswikian 19:26, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The original uses an unnecessarily opaque abbreviation, and the proposed renaming follows that of the associated article. -- Ketil Trout 23:14, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the debate was Delete. Vegaswikian 18:22, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This category has been superceded by Category:Lists by country. I've already made sure that all the lists in the former category are also included in the latter category. JeffW 22:59, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Wikipedians who are 13

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The result of the debate was Delete. Vegaswikian 18:23, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Redundant with Category:13 year old wikipedians. SCHZMO ✍ 22:48, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Public school districts in Iowa

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The result of the debate was Delete. Vegaswikian 18:24, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Redundant, Category:School districts in Iowa already exists for this purpose. Private schools do not have school districts, so it would be simpler to categorize all the school district articles under Category:School districts in Iowa. --Ted 22:37, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Entertainers by age upon death

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The result of the debate was No Consensus. 13K, 7D, 5Listify. Vegaswikian 19:27, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I propose deleting Category:Entertainers by age upon death and its subcategories: Category:Entertainers who died before age 20, Category:Entertainers who died in their 20s, Category:Entertainers who died in their 30s, Category:Entertainers who died in their 40s, Category:Entertainers who died in their 50s, Category:Entertainers who died in their 60s, Category:Entertainers who died in their 60s, Category:Entertainers who died in their 70s, Category:Entertainers who died in their 80s, Category:Entertainers who died in their 90s, Category:Entertainers who died in their 100s. This is a union category of age of death with entertainers, which provides very little added value. Should we have this per every occupation? That way leads to madness. I have gone over Wikipedia:Categorization and Wikipedia:Categorization of people and neither explicitly covers this case, but it does seem to fall under Wikipedia:Trivia (though that is a guideline and not a policy). In addition, these categories group individuals in a way that is not meaningful. A vaudeville star that dies in 1911 at 55 has absolutely nothing of value in common with an actress that dies tomorrow at 59. I wasn't able to find any past CFDs on these categories, but I can't believe that someone else hasn't proposed deletion by now... JRP 18:44, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

QuizQuick 03:24, 19 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep Useful and interesting cats. Ckessler 04:05, 19 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep makes creating a list unnecessary. Lady Aleena 20:56, 19 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all per nom. Choalbaton 08:16, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all boring, meaningless, and difficult to make comprehensive.Ghosts&empties 21:41, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Listify for those who find this stuff enthralling. Sophia 12:29, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, only really useful for 40s and under (per Osomec), but keeping 20s - 40s entails keeping them all and for me outweighs deleting the lot. However, I'm sure these will be nominated again and again until they finally get deleted. Deizio talk 15:02, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep vaguely interesting, lists would be less useful as noone would notice them. Arniep 15:07, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: It might make sense to rename "Entertainers who died in their x0s" to "People who died in their x0s". However, those categories can get very large and then subcategorization would be necessary. One way to subdivide would be to categorize by occupation, which would involve recreating "Entertainers" categories. Though another solution would be to categorize by people who died at each age in terms of years instead of decades, like the way people are categorized by year and decade of birth and death. Q0 17:24, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: Interesting idea. This is the type of thing categories were created to organize. MK2 17:27, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep these are best by categories not lists as I said before when this was up for deletion. Why the same things are targeted again and again for deletion contrary to previous consensus is beyond me -- and soooooo soon after the last go-round. Carlossuarez46 17:33, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep --BrenDJ 23:11, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I guess someone was bound to do it eventually, but don't you think it's a bit unfair that User:Wknight94 would go around notifying the people that agreed with his position only that there was another vote going on? We could just have easily notified everyone who voted delete in the previous polls to come back and vote again, but what would that have accomplished? This is just the kind of nonsense that makes actual debate on a topic irrevelant. We should be ashamed. I hope that no one interprets this one-sidedness as a premature sign of concensus. (Strictly speaking, it's not against the rules... but it's not exactly above-board either.) JRP 12:24, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: It's more above-board than nominating for deletion when they've already survived twice. Three nominations within six months smells a lot like you're hoping to sneak one through. If 12 people here all think these categories are a useful piece of information - and they are very well-populated and maintained - and have already survived two deletion attempts, what gives you the idea they should be deleted at all? That's a lot of people disagreeing with your "adding value" argument - and that's just the people I could find to notify. You say these categories would "lead to madness"?! What the heck does that mean?! And your assertion that there's no relationship between ages of death - tell that to the endless number of people that report about similarities between Chris Farley and John Belushi and between Jim Morrison, Janis Joplin and Jimi Hendrix. None of those reports would make sense except for the fact that they all died at a similarly untimely age. I'm still trying to figure what offends people about these categories... —Wknight94 (talk) 15:04, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • I agree. I've seen plenty of game playing in the past from people trying to delete something. I've seen the same proposals for deletions made multiple times; I've seen people make fifty different deletion proposals in the space of an hour using a cut and paste nomination; I've seen people reach a "consensus" if one person wants to delete and a second person agrees; I've seen people who propose deleting a list with claims the subject should be a category and then turn around and propose deleting the category, and vice versa; I've seen people knowingly lie about the subject they're trying to delete in order to sway votes; and I've seen people who simply ignore any consensus that doesn't give them the outcome they want and go ahead and delete anyway. I try to give these people the benefit of the doubt and assume they honestly believe they're doing the right thing and that the ends justify the means, but the under-handedness is there. MK2 18:07, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Comment There is no ill will meant on my part. I hadn't known they had been up for deleting before and I am not part of some conspiracy to get rid of categories which clearly have a lot of people liking them, but perhaps an equal number of people that don't. Hence, no concensus. All I did was see a category that I don't believe is justified and put it in CFD. I may propose later, since no concensus seems to be reachable, that we change "Entertainers" to something else that more closely follows the other taxonomy for the people categories, but that's just icing. JRP 18:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • It would help if the admins that close the discussion put the results of the discussion on the talk page as I believe the instructions say to do, but it doesn't seem to be done more often than not. --JeffW 19:01, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • I'm glad there's no ill will on your part - but I'd appreciate if you'd refrain from implying that there's ill will on my part either. Trying to make sure a CFD doesn't sneak past people that find categories useful is perfectly reasonable IMHO. Finding 12 people that will even vote on a CFD seems pretty unusual so, to me, if 12 people all vote to keep a category, that category should be exempt from CFD for some amount of time. But that's just my opinion. We have categories that have almost no relationships represented - like Category:Armigerous clan with all of two articles - and we have categories related to celebrities - like Category:Relatives of celebrities. I don't understand why people are going after the dead celebrity categories but not other categories like those. If someone has a better naming scheme or a better way to categorize people that have died prematurely, please suggest something. I hate lists because they're almost impossible to find and no one keeps them up to date. —Wknight94 (talk) 20:16, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • I apologize if it seemed I was making a veiled accusation against JRP or anyone else in this thread. I came across this particular discussion by happenstance and did not participate in any past discussions on this category. I have never encountered JRP before and have no reason to think his actions are underhanded or that he has done any of the things I mentioned above. MK2 08:09, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Pittsburgh Pirates (NHL) players and Category:Pittsburgh Pirates (hockey) players

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The result of the debate was Merge to Category:Pittsburgh Pirates (NHL) players. Vegaswikian 18:49, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

These ought to be merged. -- ProveIt (talk) 17:33, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Automobile manufacturers by country

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The result of the debate was no consensus (3R 2K). Syrthiss 21:06, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nominated for discussion. Some people have proposed that some of the subcategories to this category, such as Category:Automobile manufacturers of the United Kingdom, be renamed to "Motors manufacturers" in accordance with local language usage. --Cyde Weys 17:14, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose - Consistency is important. Using local language is fine in individual articles, but when designing a site-wide categorization scheme, we need to be consistent. I think that since all of these categories describe the same thing they should be named in the same way. Additionally, "Motors manufacturers" has the disadvantage that it is rather ambiguous in other regions such as the United States, where when people hear the phrase "motors manufacturers" they're going to be thinking of motors, not cars or automobiles. While the word automobile is somewhat less common in British parlance, it is at least unambiguous. I'd also to like to point out how absurd the logical conclusion of this is. Right now we only have Category:Colors, to which Category:Colours is a redirect. But what if we actually did change the categorization scheme so that it wasn't site-wide, but rather, according to local customs? (Some colors are undeniably British) Right now we simply have Category:Automobile manufacturers by country, which contains categories of the form "Automobile manufacturers of Foo." What happens if we go to the motors manufacturers idea though? Are we going to have a separate category Category:Motors manufacturers by country with a common parent of Category:Automobile manufacturers by spelling customs also containing Category:Automobile manufacturers by country? I should hope not! In summary, site-wide consistency in the organizational scheme is more important than catering to local naming or spelling so long as no ambiguities are introduced, and in this case, I believe I have provided evidence that ambiguities are actually reduced. --Cyde Weys 17:14, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]


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Category:Quadrophenia actors

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The result of the debate was Delete. Vegaswikian 18:25, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actors aren't categorized by film, are they? Conscious 17:05, 17 May 2006 (UTC).[reply]

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Category:Rugby logos

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The result of the debate was Keep. Vegaswikian 18:50, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category has been replaced by the rugby union and rugby league categories Bob 16:37, 17 May 2006 (UTC) Will use as a supercategory for rugby union and league logos. --Bob 17:01, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Syrian-Brazilians

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The result of the debate was Delete. Vegaswikian 18:26, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Unused. Conscious 16:11, 17 May 2006 (UTC).[reply]

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Category:Trincomalee

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The result of the debate was Delete. Vegaswikian 18:27, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Empty. The broader Category:Trincomalee District contains 3 entries. Conscious 16:01, 17 May 2006 (UTC).[reply]

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Category:Wikipedia:Suspected sockpuppets of Whopper

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Category:Wikipedia:Suspected sockpuppets of HappyVR

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The result of the debate was Delete. Vegaswikian 18:29, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

These two sockpuppet categories are unused. Conscious 13:41, 17 May 2006 (UTC).[reply]

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Category:1914 introductions

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The result of the debate was Delete. Vegaswikian 18:30, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Unused. Conscious 13:01, 17 May 2006 (UTC).[reply]

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Category:Football (soccer) supporters to Category:Wikipedians who support soccer teams

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The result of the debate was rename both, please bring the deletion discussion if you feel the need. Syrthiss 21:10, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Should be merged to the better named category serving the same purpose. Conscious 13:01, 17 May 2006 (UTC).[reply]


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Category:Wikipedians who support soccer teams to Category:Wikipedians who support football (soccer) teams

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The result of the debate was rename both, please bring the deletion discussion if you feel the need. Syrthiss 21:10, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]


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Category:Wikipedians who are fans of The Apprentice

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The result of the debate was Delete. Vegaswikian 18:32, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Contrary to the category text, {{User:UBX/The Apprentice}} uses no category. So it's empty. Conscious 13:01, 17 May 2006 (UTC).[reply]

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Category:People from Belfast

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The result of the debate was delete. Conscious 06:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Empty - and duplicates category:Natives of Belfast Saga City 12:42, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Papua law to Category:Papua New Guinean law

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The result of the debate was Rename. Vegaswikian 18:53, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The country is called Papua New Guinea. Papua was just part of the country as the Australian Territory of Papua. Bduke 11:06, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Mathematical operator templates

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The result of the debate was Delete. Vegaswikian 19:20, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Empty, everything was moved to Category:Mathematical templates. Conscious 07:24, 17 May 2006 (UTC).[reply]

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Category:List of documentaries

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The result of the debate was Delete. Vegaswikian 19:14, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Only contains the article with the same name. Rename to Category:Lists of documentaries or delete entirely. Conscious 07:24, 17 May 2006 (UTC).[reply]

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Category:King's Counsels

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The result of the debate was Delete. Vegaswikian 18:35, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Unused (contains links to two articles though, possibly it was an effort to categorize them). Conscious 07:24, 17 May 2006 (UTC).[reply]

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Category:Wikipedians who urged 68.39.174.238 to get an account

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The result of the debate was Deleted --Cyde Weys 16:59, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. - Only one user used it.--FlareNUKE 06:14, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Fictional US-themed heroes

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The result of the debate was Rename. Vegaswikian 18:54, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Rename to Category:United States-themed superheroes to match the actual category contents. -Sean Curtin 05:26, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Vertebrates with jaws

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The result of the debate was Delete. Vegaswikian 18:37, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not a primary classifier for animals. This category can serve no purpose unless the categorization hierarchy is going to include infraphylums. Delete. Outriggr 05:15, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:nihongo

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The result of the debate was Delete. Vegaswikian 18:38, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Useless category that simply repeats the text from the main page, as well as relisting (manually) the pages that can more easily be found from this page http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Whatlinkshere&target=Help%3AJapanese. The template is useful but there is no need for this category.  freshgavinΓΛĿЌ  04:19, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Washington, DC politicians to Category:District of Columbia politicians

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The result of the debate was rename per William Allen Simpson. Syrthiss 21:13, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Two categories for same area. This one only has two sub cats, the suggested merge target has all of the articles. Leaving a cat redirect might be needed if the merge is approved. Vegaswikian 02:34, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]


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Category:United States federal boards, commissions, and committees

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The result of the debate was no consensus to merge. Conscious 19:21, 29 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This category is redundant, as Category:Independent Agencies of the United States Government already exists for the exact same purpose. Paul 19:26, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep Correct me if I am wrong but it seems as though boards, commissions and committees are different from agencies. I was under the impression that the latter are permanent and the boards etc are not, or mostly are not. They seem to not be crossing eachother as they have different content as well.
  • Keep per previous entry. Lady Aleena 20:56, 19 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment "Agency" is a catch-all term for any of the following: board, bureau, commission, department, council, etc etc etc. Boards, commissions and committees are all "agencies," and they are either independent of executive branch departments (in which case they should be categorized as Independent Agencies) or they are within an executive department, in which case such a categorization is unnecessary. Paul 04:32, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: It is somewhat redundant. Perhaps the two categories could be merged and the new resulting category be expanded in name. Meanwhile, see my proposed cfr:United States federal agencies → Agencies of the United States government. —Markles 12:54, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nomination insufficient? No notice was placed on the category page. There was no {{cfd}} placed there. The nominator needs to notify category users on the category page itself. The nominator did not sign his/her name on this discussion here. —Markles 12:54, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge all as proposed by Markles --William Allen Simpson 16:08, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wow, did I goof. Sorry for not signing the nom or putting the CFD tag on the category page (which I coulda sworn that I did)...anywho, Markles is right that it is somewhat redundant. I think a clear explanation of the structure of the U.S. Gov't is necessary (something that, understandably, is difficult to grasp, given that the Gov't itself is a mess, so it isn't a surprise that categories and articles about it get a bit tangled. The U.S. Gov't portal may assist in this clarification; I encourage all to contribute to it.) Paul 19:26, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep These boards are seperate from the independent agencies of the Federal Government. Louisiana State University has a list of all Federal Government entities and it lists these as a seperate category.[1] --Epolk 16:14, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Government of Washington, D.C. to Category:Government of the District of Columbia

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The result of the debate was no consensus (2K, 3M). Conscious 19:24, 29 May 2006 (UTC) Better accurate name. —Markles 01:44, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Esterhazy

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The result of the debate was Cat redirect. Vegaswikian 19:10, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Empty category. Relevant articles are at the correct Category:Esterházy. Olessi 00:17, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Anti-Semitic people

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was No conensus. Vote was 34K, 25D and 3L so 31K for the cat and 28 to delete the cat. Vegaswikian 19:06, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As has been mentioned on its talk page, this category is subjective and can be used as an attack category. Putting someone in this category is a stark outright condemnation, with no room for the subtleties that can be expressed in an article. There is such a difference between the pre- and post-Holocaust eras that it seems to me to be improper to put anyone from the pre-Holocaust era in a category which will automatically equate them with gas chamber operators in the minds of many readers. At present this category is protected, so I cannot tag it. I think this use of protection to prevent amendment to an obviously controversial category is improper and have asked for the protection to be removed. Hawkestone 00:14, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep Important information

--kelovy 06:43, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete This page should be renamed "List of Nazis and Neo-Nazis" and should be limited to only that. Labeling anyone as antisemetic is a horrible thing. No person should have to endure that kind of shame. It is a hateful thing to categorize a person with a lable that shuns from society or a large group of people. --Cocopuffberman 19:56, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: Professor Shmuel Almog of the Vidal Sassoon International Center for the Study of Antisemitism of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem states, "it is currently established procedure to use 'antisemitism' for all types of Jew-hatred." Antisemitism is "applied not just to the modern brand of Jew-hatred but ... to all kinds of enmity toward Jews, past and present." "Thus we now say 'antisemitism', even when we talk about remote periods in the past." [[2]]Doright 00:15, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest as better renaming 'Anti-Semites', perfectly good Eglish usage and less clumsy than the present name.--Smerus 09:42, 18 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Just because you provide a quote from a website, it doesn't make it true. This is particularly the case when the argument on the page referred to by Doright is that the correct term is "antisemitism" (without a hyphen) and you are using it to support keeping a category called "Anti-semitic people" with a hyphen!! You can't have anti(-)semites before the concept of anti(-)semitism exists (the word was coined in the mid-19th Century). You might have a category "People who persecuted Jews" but that is a separate issue (and how do you define "persecute"?). This cat makes no reference to the fundamentally different nature of "anti-semitism" at different historical periods, an issue which our article Anti-semitism covers in some considerable depth. I also don't see what the fact that you can name people who were "tolerant to Jews" does to invalidate any of my comments. Valiantis 14:27, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: See these discussions from the Talk:Martin Luther archives as a case study for what happens where there are multiple antisemitism catagories: Anti-Semitic People #1, Antisemitism (People) #1, Anti-Semitic People #2, Anti-Semitism and Anti-Semitic People #1, Anti-Semitism and Anti-Semitic People #2, Anti-Semitism and Anti-Semitic People #3 --CTSWyneken 16:53, 19 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per above. Jayjg (talk) 21:07, 19 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. In some cases historical persons may be put into this category, but in many cases it has Wikipedia passing judgment on historical persons oblivious of history. Doing so is a violation of WP:NOR and WP:NPOV.--Drboisclair 22:52, 19 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom and Osomec. --StanZegel (talk) 00:52, 20 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I concur.--Ptmccain 19:59, 20 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Would you suggest we delete a category called "Famous Murderers" ???--b_calder 01:51, 21 May 2006 (EST)
    • Yes. No cats of people should contain the word "famous"; if they're on WP they are already "notable", the "famous" is superfluous. As to Category:Murderers, this exists and contains people convicted of murder. Antisemitism may be offensive, but it is not necessarily criminal (though people may commit crimes for reasons of antisemitism), so I'm not sure what the point you're trying to make is. Valiantis 14:33, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Not a legitimate form of category and Jews shouldn't be treated differently. Choalbaton 08:17, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • KEEP - This category was already voted on Vote and the decision was to KEEP. This +cat was posted for deletion without posting a WP:CFR or mentioning it on the +cats talk page. Just another sneaky trick to try to get it closed without a fair opportunity to vote. Please note, there are a lot of anti-Semites on the Internet that would love to shut this +cat down, they should not be allowed to do so Wikipedia:WikiProject Wikipedians against censorship SirIsaacBrock 10:22, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    You should consult page histories before making accusations. The cfd notice was removed by an anon vandal (possibly one of the anons taking part in this discussion) and has now been restored by me. As I linked above, previous discussion was no consensus not, keep. Syrthiss 17:10, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete That is just silly. Miskin 10:51, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Jpgordon. I would like to add that Wikipediawise this a very important category, as some Antisemites became notable mainly or even exclusively for their antisemitimitic views or activities. gidonb 11:28, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep very useful —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 60.48.249.78 (talk • contribs) .
  • Listify per TheGrappler. Avenue 13:34, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Karimarie 15:16, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep -- many persons notable for their anti-semitism. No harder to patrol than any other information. Would prefer persons or individuals in the name. --William Allen Simpson 15:39, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep; antisemitism is a historically important phenomenon, and pertinence in the category can be ascertained with no more difficulty than most others. I wouldn't object to renaming, though. Taragüí @ 17:04, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, no objections to renaming, criteria for inclusion should be clear. May need sub-categories to make distinctions. Still, there are figures (Hitler, Karl Lueger, Corneliu Zelea Codreanu, George Lincoln Rockwell) where their anti-Semitism is politically defining, and it is a valid category. - Jmabel | Talk 17:36, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, as per Hawkestone. Rex Germanus Tesi samanunga is edele unde scona 18:14, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep w/comment - I really don't like these lists since they seem bound for problems and contraversy. WHO defines the category and who decides on final inclusion?? That being said, I would rather leave lists/articles/information in question rather than delete them (unless of course we run out of server space :) ). I also find that a list like this shows which persons have an agenda in here. Martin Luther is a nice example about the debate on whether to include him or not. WHY is it SO important that he be included or excluded from this list?? Again, I don't like "labeling" people unless we are 110% certain that the label fits. If there is MAJOR differences of opinion/facts than the person should NOT be included in the list in question, IMHO. --Tom 20:42, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep again GabrielF 21:18, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I note that SirIsaacBrock has been adding comments to the user pages of people who voted 'keep' on this last time telling them to vote 'Keep' again. Anyone who voted 'Delete' or otherwise hasn't been given the info. I'd assume that would make the result very inaccurate. Icey 21:31, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment Is this against policy? If so, would you cite it for us? --CTSWyneken 19:09, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Spamming talk pages to bias a discussion has been considered disruption in at least one ArbCom case, to my knowledge. Spamming talk pages and not telling people what to vote is not as disruptive (ie just pointing out that the discussion exists). I'll see if I can find the relevant arbcom if you need further support. Syrthiss 20:32, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks! I think we should be sure that our guideline and policy pages reflect the ArbCom decision, if they do not do so already. --CTSWyneken 20:55, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    How about WP:CON where it says "At times, a group of editors may be able to, through persistence, numbers, and organization, overwhelm well-meaning editors and generate widespread support among the editors of a given article for a version of the article that is POV, inaccurate, or libelous. This is not a consensus." It doesn't directly address CFD discussions, but I think the principle of finding consensus and this not being a vote apply. --JeffW 22:13, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Huh? That makes no sense whatsoever. "Through persistence, numbers, and organization"? Emphasis on numbers. I was under the impression that one of the chief ingredients in consensus is a majority. You seem to be opposing either majority consensus, or wikipedians using quasi-political means, such as talk page canvassing, in order to get votes on issues. But I can't see what's wrong with that. If "well-meaning" editors are "overwhelmed" by numbers, then that's what in democratic terms we call losing the vote. Well-meaning is also a subjective description which is impossible to meaningfully include in a Wikipedia policy. Unless Arbcom feels that voting should be more or less restricted to people who regularly edit the page in question - but how can you make that judgement? Hell, I only have cat:anti-semitism on my watch page and only check it once a week. Does that make me "good enough" an editor to vote? This line of reasoning leads to a very dangerous place, if you ask me. Kasreyn 08:25, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Ok, I've just re-read WP:CON and WP:Voting_is_evil (which I disagree with strongly). But neither of them seem to apply; we're already voting, so we've already broken them. It seems to apply those policies to this, we would have to simply cancel this vote. In any case, I have a hard time understanding why the policy considers voting to be non-dialectic... I've never in my life seen a community of people so eager to share their opinions in a dialectic manner as there is here. Just look at all the commentaries on this vote alone! Kasreyn 08:29, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    You are mistaken; this is not a vote. The admins who close the debate are supposed to look at more than the numbers, they also look at whether the arguments align with wikipedia guidelines and policies and they are allowed to give more weight to long time contributors. The idea is to come to a consensus, with people on each side actually listening to the arguments from the other side and allowing themselves to be swayed by those arguements. If each side remains locked into their positions then no consensus is likely to be the result. --JeffW 16:31, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with Kasreyn. One of the points behind wikipedia is that we work together as a community. We can do this, as Kasreyn points out, quite effectively. If an issue comes up on which several editors have expressed interest, why not go out of the way to invite them? The result will be, if consensus is reached, a true one, and one less likely to end in debate, or worse, edit warring. --CTSWyneken 11:02, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    I believe that is ok. The problem is when you only invite people to the debate who you know or strongly suspect will support your side. If your going to invite people invite both sides (and I'm not accusing anyone of anything, I'm just stating what I believe the rules are). --JeffW 16:31, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Ahh, I get it now. I had been under the misconception that the end result would be a simple tally of keeps and deletes. I'm actually a bit relieved to learn it's not. And yes, I can see the danger of inviting only the likeminded - it carries the danger of dividing an issue into two close-minded camps, and then discussion will bog down into nothing but a yelling match with neither side listening to the other. Kind of like American politics. :P Here's an idea: would having a link on your own userpage, asking anyone who visits your page to weigh in on the Cfd - without asking for a specific response - be acceptable? After all, you can't control who may visit your userpage, so not everyone who follows your link will necessarily agree with you. Kasreyn 19:23, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Just one quick point re Kasreyn's thoughts above. Even if a vote is solicited in favor of a position, that is no guarantee that people seeing the user page will vote in accordance with that request. --Mantanmoreland 19:55, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Incorrect 21:49, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Sir Humus - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 22:04, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Listify per TheGrappler. Hbackman 23:54, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per jpgordon and Jmabel. -- DS1953 talk 00:05, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per jpgordon and Jmabel. Also, what the heck was Ghosts&empties talking about with the "male chauvanists" and his grandpa being racist and progressive at the same time. To me, that sounds like an complete fallacy and a lie. Thetruthbelow(talk) 00:22, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as per all the above reasons, no use rationalizing it away. IZAK
  • Keep but perhaps define more clearly. Anti-Semitism is really an ideology, not just a form of hatred; perhaps this category would be on sounder grounds if it were explicitly defined with that fact in mind.--Pharos 05:20, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Very Strong Delete. This is so obviously POV name for a category, it's like naming a category Communist Oppressors, or Capitalist Pigs. Whether or not someone was an anti-semite is not an objective judgment and frequently involves disputes, so the name of this category is in clear violation of the non-negotiable policy WP:NPOV. At least rename it to something objective, like Category:Alleged anti-semites. Loom91 08:14, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment. A fair number of historical figures have been quite openly anti-Semitic, and would not view the characterization as pejorative anymore than a Communist would the simple term "Communist" or a Capitalist the simple term "Capitalist". It is my understanding that this category is intended for such figures, not ambiguous cases.--Pharos 08:26, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Reply Well, I wouldn't be against the category if the criteria for inclusion were "self-described anti-semites". Is this what you're suggesting? It's applying the labels to others by subjective (translation: made up) standards that I object to. Kasreyn 16:09, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • keep maybe there should be a separate category for self-confirmed antisemites? for the rest, you have folks like David Irving where a reliable third party, i.e. the trial judge, declared him to be antisemitic, vs. people somebody might argue with, like antiZionists etc. The problem of historical antisemitism leading to a huge category though... from the NYTimes book report the other week "saying a gentile Austrian in (1820? 1920?) was antisemitic is like saying a white Mississippian in (1820? 1920?) was a racist". how to handle?Gzuckier 14:10, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • True, when an entire culture is anti-semitic is it noteworthy for an individual to be anti-semitic? Isn't this going to include to a huge number of historic figures? Should it be limited to modern anti-semites? --JeffW 14:34, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. If we have antisemitism as a cat, then we should have antimuslim, antichristian, antiblank, antiwhite etc too. __earth (Talk) 14:40, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment to Comment Perhaps you should take two minutes to do some research before you post misleading comments to a vote. There are many +cats Category:Neo-Nazis Category:White nationalists Category:White supremacist groups in the United States Category:Ku Klux Klan members Category:German neo-Nazis Category:Italian neofascists Category:Neo-fascists Category:Anti-Arabism Category:Anti-Polonism Category:Segregationists and the list goes on and on. Kapeesh?! SirIsaacBrock 14:53, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.
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